What will happen to Trump Fri Jun 12 throw

[BaronAsh]

Well, you are right. I shouldn't do it. I just find it interesting. But since the new take just expands on the old one, I felt no need to do another throw. Like I said earlier on, I don't use the I-Ching for this sort of thing. It just came up on conversation one day. All be over soon one way or t'other.

 

[Trojina]

It may have nothing to do with what happens to Trump over in the USA!!!

There's inconsistencies, you say you don't live in the US and then say 'we'

I find this scenario very hard to imagine, but we are in very crazed time in the US so let's see.

"we are in very crazed time in the US"


In other threads you said stuff like 'I don't have a horse in the race I don't live there'. Why would you write "we" then.

 

[Trojina]

I do not understand why you are repeating the predictions of your psychic on an iChing readings page.
It's not related to the discipline we are studying. And there is no way to check or scrutinize the basis for it.
On a tarot page, at least a card reading could be subjected to some kind of peer review.
You might as well be posting the latest from Q-Anon or Alex Jones.

- LL

It's part of the background of the question in this instance, it gives rise to the question that's why he quoted it. How is it your place to object, it's not against the rules. There's no need to check or scrutinize the basis it's just part of why he came to the question.

It's like saying 'our family were chatting and my aunt said Trump was a Turd and wouldn't get in again unless the American people were batshit crazy so I asked "are Americans batshit crazy ?" you know it's the preamble to the question.


Your only real problem is the actual prediction as you can't tolerate anything that says Trump won't win.

 

[Trojina]

Mind you I can't see why it would bother you this member has actual sympathy, pity for the man...

I had another take on 3.3. His entire Presidency has consisted on his being threatened with humiliation and disgrace, or you could say that it has been dished out at him daily. Constant insult and accusations of imbecility, immorality, incompetence, bad intent. That is the path this President has been walking, day by day. So you have bringing order out of confusion accomplished from beginning to end, via a path involving navigation through the forest in the face of humiliation and disgrace. He is an outsider, a people's tribune, and so by definition is walking alone through the forest, foresters being denied him.

He probably is a Trump supporter

 

[Trojina]

Hang on this is really weird Baron Ash using exactly the same phrases as he did way back up the thread.

First on June 12th

Let's face it, after four years there the forces arrayed against him are demonstrating that they are willing to burn the entire country down if necessary to ensure he never enjoys any easy successes.

and more of the same today

And the sad fact is that there isn't one because his opponents are willing to burn the country down in order to undermine his support.

You think that's sad that he's undermined ? In other threads you say you aren't American and you make out you're neutral and just casting for interest...none of it is very consistent you sound very Pro Trump to me. How do you think it's sad and can you say more about this burning the country down and who you are saying is doing this ?

 

[Trojina]

Here we are from post 10

perhaps! I was trying to maintain an objective tone, but can see I failed, even though in truth I don't have a dog in the fight - not being America and not living there!

and then today

I find this scenario very hard to imagine, but we are in very crazed time in the US so let's see.

 

[BaronAsh]

Hang on this is really weird Baron Ash using exactly the same phrases as he did way back up the thread.

First on June 12th




and more of the same today




You think that's sad that he's undermined ? In other threads you say you aren't American and you make out you're neutral and just casting for interest...none of it is very consistent you sound very Pro Trump to me. How do you think it's sad and can you say more about this burning the country down and who you are saying is doing this ?

I am pro America, and pro people in general, and so pro the American President since his country effects the lives of so many others. I am anti the way he has been treated, which has been disgraceful, unfair and criminal. I don't know him personally and have no great care for him that way, even though most of the coverage about him is extremely personal. But most media coverage in both US and UK has gone downhill the past few decades, so maybe that's all that can be expected.

If you are wanting me to confess, then I confess I do not hate him like so many people do these days. Indeed, I find hateful the way he has been treated. But this more about others than it is about Trump per se. Actually, I quite like the guy - he's often funny and more often right than wrong although clearly he wasn't up to being President given how they treated him in DC - but am more concerned about the country and how it effects others than the man per se.

 

[BaronAsh]

Hang on this is really weird Baron Ash using exactly the same phrases as he did way back up the thread.

First on June 12th




and more of the same today




You think that's sad that he's undermined ? In other threads you say you aren't American and you make out you're neutral and just casting for interest...none of it is very consistent you sound very Pro Trump to me. How do you think it's sad and can you say more about this burning the country down and who you are saying is doing this ?

Would rather not, especially to such a hostile person as yourself 'waiting in ambush.' But I did answer more below.

 

[BaronAsh]

Mind you I can't see why it would bother you this member has actual sympathy, pity for the man...




He probably is a Trump supporter if he can decide whether he's from the US or not

I have reported you for trolling. Had enough!
(I read the comments from the last first because that's how they come up for some reason.)
You should relax about politics. And leave off the insults.

 

[Trojina]

Trolling ? That's rich coming from you.

You haven't answered my question in post 36. It should be a fairly straight forward question to answer. Not that anyone is bound to say what country they are in but you have made several contrasting statements so that can undermine the rest of what you say.

Ambush ? Not really but it's hard not to notice the inconsistencies not only in which country you live in but your reasons for posting political questions when you claim you are neutral which you clearly aren't.

Before throwing your trump pity party you need to think about his effect on the world. We don't want more pro Trump propaganda here

I am pro America, and pro people in general, and so pro the American President since his country effects the lives of so many others. I am anti the way he has been treated, which has been disgraceful, unfair and criminal.

Oh diddums my heart pumps pure piss for the little man it's so unfair.............what a ridiculous statement

 

[Valmar33]

Before throwing your trump pity party you need to think about his effect on the world. We don't want more pro Trump propaganda here

Agreed. Can we do the same for the anti-Trump propaganda? I know you don't see it like that, but I do, as some who tries to stay on the sidelines as much as sanely possible.

How about we just ban politics? That sounds like a good idea!

 

[BaronAsh]

Agreed. Can we do the same for the anti-Trump propaganda? I know you don't see it like that, but I do, as some who tries to stay on the sidelines as much as sanely possible.

How about we just ban politics? That sounds like a good idea!

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I bought and read this one a few years ago, but have always been meaning to go through it again in more depth. He's a daoist master with shamanic influences in the mix - as with all traditional daoists. The modern approach is to try to keep everything rather clinical / psychological, i.e. not too far from 'scientific' view (whatever that is). In one chapter he gives an example of his method being used to find out where someone lost their car keys. (He only throws a single trigram in these examples, each one having a broad matrix of meanings/associations.) Well, he found those car keys from the throw.

Now, this seems very close to psychic ability as far as I can tell. Indeed, the original shell-casting method way back when is used to this day by shamans, who also cast bones, pebbles, read (Turkish) coffee grind patterns in an overturned cup, tea leaves and so forth.

So my original throw which I offered here was simply to see if that throw would in some way echo a psychic acquaintance of mine's reading. Unfortunately, it was a topic that upsets some, something I stupidly didn't consider before sharing here. I guess I thought a board of people interested in the I-Ching moreover in the UK couldn't care less about an American President. Boy was I wrong (though to be fair it was mainly one person who has become riled up about it all). I thought the original psychic's reading was interesting, not only because it was fairly clear, but also because the prognostication was unexpected: that he would withdraw from the race.

The update last night was just that we revisited the topic at dinner last night so she did a reading again (it's not Tarot btw but a personal method she trained in with a Mexican shaman many years ago) which both confirmed the original and also added some more detail. I thought it would be fun to share it because whether it turns out right or wrong, that might prove interesting, that's all.

But although the I-Ching is not about psychic readings etc., such things are not entirely out of left field - as they say in the US. ( I lived there for 10 years in the mid 70's to mid 80's.) Indeed, I think sometimes the I-Ching operates, so to speak, by inviting the thrower to access psychic abilities, which all of us share to a certain extent, but clearly some much more than others. My personal theory is that the use of language has caused them to atrophy in most human beings, but certainly not all. People who don't have such abilities (most of us) either deny or become fascinated by them. People who do are generally quiet about it because the topic can get heated - like bringing up Trump for which I again apologise!

Anyway, we'll find out in about two months whether or not she called it right with Trump: withdrawal due to illness, probably a heart attack, in the first week of September. I would note for those who do follow politics, that this will be after the currently scheduled GOP convention, which means that the replacement, if any, won't come from that nexus of professional DC insiders. In any case, the prediction - which I find impossible, personally - is for Kanye to be the heir and for Kanye to win. Not sure if that means he will be running as a Republican or not, or whether or not there will be another Republican candidate after Trump pulls out for health reasons. In any case: won't that be something if he does indeed win?

Hmm, maybe that's worth a throw to see how it compliments the psychic....

 

[Freedda]

BaronAsh, that's not a nom de plume for Barron Trump is it (I always thought he looked a bit wild-eyed)?

Looking through this thread, I find many posts here which are ... long. So, coming at this from another perspective - and considering the imagery of the Yi:

Here we are starting with the primordial symbols Hex. 1 and 2. They are pure Yang and Yin. I have seen them described as the Feast of The Bulls, with Taurus the Bull and Elsie the Cow.

This gives rise to the six lines of the hexagram: the first line is the grass and grain being eaten by the cows; the middle four lines represent the four chambers of the cow's stomach, and the final, top line is the by-product of this feast, the Blessed Substance, or BS.

(Some people insist that this is Pig Sh_t instead of BS, but I don't think that enters into the picture until Hex. 33 and that's an entirely different discussion I think.)

So one way of seeing this reading: here we are at near the beginning (3.3), where the BS is first produced and revealed to us, and it goes all the way to near the end (63), the present day, where people are still fighting over this BS - over who owns it, who can use it, and who understands its vast, ancient secrets.

Similarly, the 8x8 (= 64 symbols) grid of the Yi represents both an historic journey and an historic battle: it takes us all the way back to the I Ching's true roots where many thousands of years ago its wisdom was first revealed as the Ifa to the people of West Africa. From there it traveled and was revealed to the Egyptians and the Israelites, and from there it traveled to India where it became the ancicent Vedas. And only much later did it arrive in what we now call China where it was revealed, first as the ZhouYi, and later as the I Ching - both being watered-down versions of a much older, ancient wisdom.

And similarly, this reading is showing us the continuing battle - which started 40,000 years ago - between the warriors of the continents Lemuria and Atlantis, which was continued some 3,000 years ago between the Shang and the Zhou, and which is continuing today between Trump and his opponents. Is it any wonder then that a gifted psychic doesn't see a clear winner between those who continue to fight over this Blessed Substance?

And looking even more closely at yin/yang theory and the trigrams, they show us wisdom from another tradition, as revealed by Rabbi Hillel to Rabbi Jesus some 2000 years ago - as it has come down to us on the side of the Dr. Bronner's soap bottle:

Asolute cleanliness is Godliness! Teach the Moral ABC that unites all mankind free, instantly 6 billion strong & we’re All-One. “Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!” As taught by The Moral ABC, the real Rabbi Hillel taught Jesus to unite all mankind free!!!

Hexagram 1: If I’m not for me, who am I? Nobody! Hexagram 2: Yet, if I’m only for me, what am I? Nothing! . . .

Hexagram 3: If not now, when???!!! Once more, unless constructive-selfish I work hard perfecting first me, absolute nothing can help perfect me! Exceptions none!!

. . . (all the way to)

Hexagrams 63: Only hard work - God’s Law can save us, but if we teach only our clan, we’re all hated then!​

So, Hillel taught Jesus, we must teach friend & enemy, the whole Human race, the full-truth, hard-work, free speech, press-&- profitsharing Moral ABC’s All-One-God-Faith, uniting the whole Human Race! For we’re All-One or None! As teach for 6,000 years the African shepherd-astronomers Abraham & Israel, since the year One: “listen children eternal father eternally one!” Exceptions eternally? Absolute None ....

And that's what this reading is really about.

 

[moss elk]

Say what you will about dr bronner!

but I love his soap and wash my man eating Atlantian Lemurs with it.

Amongst all the text on the package there is this gem: One Human Family

 

[Trojina]

Agreed. Can we do the same for the anti-Trump propaganda? I know you don't see it like that, but I do, as some who tries to stay on the sidelines as much as sanely possible.

How about we just ban politics? That sounds like a good idea!

Political questions used to be moved straight to Open Space since they will most often start with, as in this thread, or veer into personal opinion and there's more room there and actually it's more honest IMO to have political discussion than to pretend it's all about a reading.

 

[Freedda]

I love his soap and wash my man eating Atlantian Lemurs with it

The Bronner family wants to hear about new ways people use their soaps - from cleaning pets to divination (i.e.. helping to understand a response from the Yi) - so you should submit your idea to them .... From their FAQs:

You can use Dr. Bronner’s soaps for washing your face, body, hands and hair, for bathing, shaving, brushing your teeth, rinsing fruit, aromatherapy, washing dishes by hand, doing laundry, mopping floors, all-purpose cleaning, washing windows, scrubbing toilets, washing dogs, controlling dust mites, ants and aphids. Now, that’s eighteen uses right there, but customers have told us over time about many more uses they have found for our soaps.

Let us know what else you use our soaps for!

 

[BaronAsh]

BaronAsh, that's not a nom de plume for Barron Trump is it (I always thought he looked a bit wild-eyed)?

Looking through this thread, I find many posts here which are ... long. So, coming at this from another perspective - and considering the imagery of the Yi:

Here we are starting with the primordial symbols Hex. 1 and 2. They are pure Yang and Yin. I have seen them described as the Feast of The Bulls, with Taurus the Bull and Elsie the Cow.

This gives rise to the six lines of the hexagram: the first line is the grass and grain being eaten by the cows; the middle four lines represent the four chambers of the cow's stomach, and the final, top line is the by-product of this feast, the Blessed Substance, or BS.

(Some people insist that this is Pig Sh_t instead of BS, but I don't think that enters into the picture until Hex. 33 and that's an entirely different discussion I think.)

So one way of seeing this reading: here we are at near the beginning (3.3), where the BS is first produced and revealed to us, and it goes all the way to near the end (63), the present day, where people are still fighting over this BS - over who owns it, who can use it, and who understands its vast, ancient secrets.

Similarly, the 8x8 (= 64 symbols) grid of the Yi represents both an historic journey and an historic battle: it takes us all the way back to the I Ching's true roots where many thousands of years ago its wisdom was first revealed as the Ifa to the people of West Africa. From there it traveled and was revealed to the Egyptians and the Israelites, and from there it traveled to India where it became the ancicent Vedas. And only much later did it arrive in what we now call China where it was revealed, first as the ZhouYi, and later as the I Ching - both being watered-down versions of a much older, ancient wisdom.

And similarly, this reading is showing us the continuing battle - which started 40,000 years ago - between the warriors of the continents Lemuria and Atlantis, which was continued some 3,000 years ago between the Shang and the Zhou, and which is continuing today between Trump and his opponents. Is it any wonder then that a gifted psychic doesn't see a clear winner between those who continue to fight over this Blessed Substance?

And looking even more closely at yin/yang theory and the trigrams, they show us wisdom from another tradition, as revealed by Rabbi Hillel to Rabbi Jesus some 2000 years ago - as it has come down to us on the side of the Dr. Bronner's soap bottle:

Asolute cleanliness is Godliness! Teach the Moral ABC that unites all mankind free, instantly 6 billion strong & we’re All-One. “Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!” As taught by The Moral ABC, the real Rabbi Hillel taught Jesus to unite all mankind free!!!

​

Hexagram 1: If I’m not for me, who am I? Nobody! Hexagram 2: Yet, if I’m only for me, what am I? Nothing! . . . ​

​

Hexagram 3: If not now, when???!!! Once more, unless constructive-selfish I work hard perfecting first me, absolute nothing can help perfect me! Exceptions none!! ​

​

. . . (all the way to) ​

​

Hexagrams 63: Only hard work - God’s Law can save us, but if we teach only our clan, we’re all hated then! ​

So, Hillel taught Jesus, we must teach friend & enemy, the whole Human race, the full-truth, hard-work, free speech, press-&- profitsharing Moral ABC’s All-One-God-Faith, uniting the whole Human Race! For we’re All-One or None! As teach for 6,000 years the African shepherd-astronomers Abraham & Israel, since the year One: “listen children eternal father eternally one!” Exceptions eternally? Absolute None ....

And that's what this reading is really about.

If yr response is mainly a critique about the length of my posts - point taken, though I note yours wasn't exactly short. I do tend to go on. All those hand-written A-levels back in the 60's. Some habits die hard.

If it was to inject humour, okay, but it seems more insulting than funny to me. Maybe I'm sensitive that way.

If it was to hint that any linkage between I-Ching and shamanism and/or psychic abilities is only worthy of being washed away by Dr. Bronner's nuttily labelled - but otherwise excellent - cleaning products, well there I have to draw the line! My library went up in a fire a few years back and I have been traveling since, although hopefully will be settling down soon. Meanwhile, my only I-Ching referent is the Wilhelm version which have been consulting steadily since the 1970's (and had to have rebound). So I searched for connections with shamanism and I-Ching and got a motley response amongst them this little gem:

"
The Yi Jing can therefore be viewed as a catalog of sixty-four basic archetypal configurations, a road map to the realm Jung called "collective unconscious" and Henry Corbin, in a language less susceptible to reification, "mundus imaginalis."

Historically the texts of the Yi Jing are the result of an accretion process whose beginning can be traced back to shamanic practices of the Shang dynasty (1765-1123 BC, see below, Modern views of the origins of the Yi). These texts have been described as a kaleidoscope of images resulting... from combinations and re-combinations of factual oracular statements. Each one of these images incorporates fragments of ancient statements. In each sentence of the Yi Jing we find one,two, three, rarely more, of these combined images, simply juxtaposed, and often strewn with forgotten technical divinatory terms. The whole is without any connection, but exactly like with a kaleidoscope, one is seized, in spite of oneself, by an impression of wonder.

The language of the Yi Jing is therefore closer to the language of dreams than to that of philosophical discourse. In spite of the many layers of philosophical interpretation that through the millennia have sought to elucidate them, their vitality lies rather in their proximity to the mundus imaginalis. Their constituent images have emerged from shamanic trance, while their organization in terms of the interplay of yin and yang through the geometric code of the hexagrams is the result of a long process of classification, systematization and philosophical reflection.

Therefore the Yi Jing straddles the divide between two radically different frames of mind, between the right and left hemisphere of the brain, metaphorically speaking, or the intuitive and the logical mind, and offers a bridge to move back and forth between the two. For the oracular use of the Yi Jing an understanding of the imaginal nature of its texts is of utmost importance. Because, like dream images, the images of the Yi Jing do not have a unique a priori interpretation. Depending on the context, they can be read in many different ways. And the context is given by the consultant's situation and question.

A mirror of the present
It may be useful to state here the approach to the oracular use of the Yi Jing that is proposed in this book. The Yi Jing has been used and is still used in so many different ways, that it is worthwhile to describe a bit more precisely what the reader can expect from the Eranos Yi Jing. The basic philosophy of this approach is an exploration of potential synchronicities. We assume that the random manipulation of the yarrowstalks, or the tossing of the coins, can offer, through the related Yi Jing texts and the associative process carried out by the consultant, valid insights about the archetypal energies active in the consultant's situation and psyche and the developmental tendencies contained therein. In this sense we use the Yi Jing as a mirror of the present."

http://www.downloads.imune.net/medicalbooks/I%20Ching%20-%20Introduction.pdf

I thought this interesting because my own approach 95% of the time is to use it as a "mirror of the present" so I find it hard to even formulate questions about the future as in: who will win the election, or will I end up buying this house? Although still tempted to ask 'should I do X or Y' questions, I've found they rarely do nearly as well as just thinking about a situation and then throwing about it, so my focus is on that situation, and then I let the Hexagrams address their energetic pattern from there. Nearly every commentary contains two-sided messaging: a caution about where things can get nasty if X or Y is continued in, and a hint as to the best way forward, the type of attitude or emphasis to make in this situation. As such I find it very helpful.

That said, having done a reading, I cannot often help but be curious as to how well it will turn out in the future, how relevant the reading today will feel in terms of how things later play out. But really, sufficient unto the day is the evil or good thereof, both with an I-Ching consultation and life in general.

 

[Freedda]

If yr response is mainly a critique about the length of my posts - point taken ....

If it was to inject humour, okay, but it seems more insulting than funny to me. Maybe I'm sensitive that way.

Sorry if you took offense. It was not meant to point out only your posts, but to the many posts and threads here, which are part of a larger branch of I Ching divination called, 'what will happen to Trump (when / in / if ) ....'

It was meant to be humorous and sarcastic, in the vein of The Onion. What happens all too often with 'Trump' readings is that people start arguing over their political points of view, and not what the I Ching might be saying to us. Or, they start with a forgone conclusion - Trump is Bad - and they 'intepret' the reading to match what they already believe.

And perhaps you're reading is not meant to be like that, but I have seen this over and over and over .... and as someone pointed out, they quite often get moved to another part of this website, because they are no longer about divination or the Yi.

(And for me, for most of these political 'Trump' (or Biden, or ...) readings, the main thing I can say about them is that they are ... long; unless of course I have foolishly jumped into the fray, in which case they instantly become meaningful and enlightening! - as is the case with this thread!)

All that said, I stand by my post - and by the wisdom imparted to us by the Ifa, and by Elsie the Cow's Blessed Substance, and by Dr. Bronner - and I stand by the spirit in which it was offered.

all the best ...

 

[Freedda]

Historically the texts of the Yi Jing are the result of an accretion process whose beginning can be traced back to shamanic practices of the Shang dynasty (1765 - 1123 BC ....

PS - it is your call of course, but if you want to talk about the history of the Yi and it's 'shamanic' roots, or how you view or use the Yi, then the 'Exploring Divination' forum is a good place for all that.

And as I noted in my post, some people believe the Yi can be traced back to the Vedas, and to the ancient Ifa divination tradition of West Africa - so in one sense, I'm just adding a different perspective here to the Yi's 'history ' - which I think is no more or less valid than believing in a mythical river turtle with eight trigrams on its shell, or in the ancient, mythic emperor Fuxi ....

... and what you believe about the Yi and divination is what you believe about the Yi and divination.

all the best ....

 

[Lavalamp]

How is it your place to object, it's not against the rules. There's no need to check or scrutinize the basis it's just part of why he came to the question.

Well how is it your place to object to me objecting?
Have you some kind of special status that shall not be named? Lol...
What do we want? Clarity! When do we want it?

- LL

 

[Lavalamp]

Your only real problem is the actual prediction as you can't tolerate anything that says Trump won't win.

Really, it is ludicrous to think somehow any predictions being made by tossing coins, for good or ill, are going to sway the American electorate to vote one way or the other. So I'm doing readings to suppress the Biden vote among IChing readers?
That's hilarious Trojina. Lol....
No, here you totally ignore what I actually have stated.
The Yi is not unfamiliar with competing methods of divination.
The lines that say "Ten Pairs of Tortoise shells cannot oppose it" refer to other methods of divination and other predictions that contradict the Yi - and them being wrong.
You can of course compare the Yi predictions to other's predictions divined by different methods - but that isn't what Baron was doing either. Only muddies the waters I think.

- LL

 

[Freedda]

The Yi is not unfamiliar with competing methods of divination ... The lines that say "Ten Pairs of Tortoise shells cannot oppose it" refer to other methods of divination and other predictions that contradict the Yi - and them being wrong.

.... You can of course compare the Yi predictions to (other) ... different methods .... (But these) Only muddies the waters I think.

I will leave the Yi's voting record for others to ponder. But in response to what I quoted above:

I don't know what the Yi was 'familiar with' - since it is a written divination system and not a being who 'knows things' - but the writers of the Yi were certainly familiar with other divination methods. I don't get the sense however, that they always found that these other methods would 'contradict' the Yi, or that these other methods were 'wrong'. (If you have a source for this contradictory notion, I'd really like to see it.)

Since the Yi was written at a time when oracle bone divination - and other kinds of divination - were in use, I can imagine that diviners learned to use different methods, perhaps depending on what they felt was needed or was most appropriate.

And I can also imagine that the Yi may have 'won out' over other divination methods because it was easier, quicker, and much less labor intensive than working with tortoise shells, and perhaps too it may have given more detailed responses (not necessarily more correct ones) which were needed as societies and the affairs of state became more complex.

And I know of at least one later divination method, the T'ai Hsuan Ching - the Canon of Supreme Mystery - that fell out of favor for political reasons and because its author was bad-rapped by later Confucian thinkers.

*******
I have found the words about 'ten tortoise shells' in Lines 41.5 and 42.2, of a few of the translations I've read - and these lines are auspicious and are not referring to other divination methods in any negative way ....

For example, in his Zhouyi, Richard Rutt translates 41.5 as:
Maybe enriching with a tortoise shell worth ten cowries.
Unable to decline. Most auspicious.

And his line 42.2 is equally positive. And in Hatcher's I Ching, these lines describe someone being given ten pairs of tortoise shells, but this is promising and an outstanding opportunity. And it seems to be too good an offer to pass up!

I can imagine this line describing a diviner being given a gift of ten tortoise shells, or one shell of great worth. And for the diviner this is a good thing, even if he might also be using the Yi as one of his divination methods.

Interestingly changing lines 41.5 and 42.2 give us Hex. 61, the Truth Within, which has two inner broken lines being surrounded by two solid lines on both the top and bottom. The overall hexagram image reminds me (and others) of a tortoise, with a softer and more flexible interior that is worth exploring and protecting.

But as to these lines and hexagrams, and tortoise shells indicating something wrong or contradictory ... I guess I'm just not seeing it.

*******
As to 'muddying the waters' by looking at other divination methods, I don't feel I can make any blanket statements regarding how much these would muddle things vs. how they might add clarity. I have sometimes looked at the Tarot to see if the cards offer me anything useful about their corresponding hexgrams or trigrams. And at times I've referred to the T'ai Hsuan Ching and the Dao De Jing in a similar way.

But even if I do find someting useful, the main caution I have for myself is that I can too easily confuse myself with too much information (but not necessarily wrong information).

all the best ....

 

[Lavalamp]

I have found the words about 'ten tortoise shells' in Lines 41.5 and 42.2, of a few of the translations I've read - and these lines are auspicious and are not referring to other divination methods in any negative way ....

In tortoise shell divination, they would crack and read a pair of shells. One shell would be for the question "If I do" and the other for "If I don't" basically. Sometimes they would do as many as 10 pairs of shells and take the average to get their reading. That's a lot of soup.
Yes, the Yi lines are positive. They refer to predictions of gloom and doom and bad things by tortoise shell readers, but no. The Yi says the supreme good fortune it has predicted will come to pass, no matter what those other diviners say, their mojo is a no go. That is what "10 pairs of tortoise shells cannot oppose it" means. They are wrong and the Yi is right.

- LL

 

[Freedda]

In tortoise shell divination, .... One shell would be for the question "If I do" and the other for "If I don't" .... Sometimes they would do as many as 10 pairs of shells.

.... Yi lines are positive. They refer to predictions of ... bad things by tortoise shell readers, but no. The Yi says the supreme good fortune it has predicted will come to pass .... They are wrong and the Yi is right.

I looked back through this thread and I don't see where these 'ten tortoise shells' - or the lines 41.2 or 42.5 - are talked about as part of the reading. I take it then that you're using this as an example or to make a point? If so, could you say more about that, since I'm not following the logic.

I have looked at six different translations of lines 41.5 and 42.2 and in all of them but one (Wilhelm) they do not indicate any sort of comparision between oracle bone and Yi divination. Richart Rutt's notes on these lines says: 'Tortoise-shells and coweries would be gifts from the king.' Given all that, I can imaging 'reading' these lines more like ...

'This indicates a good, auspicous outcome; in ancient times, the kings would give gifts of tortoise shells and coweries to the diviners for doing a good job - hence, the positive feeling assocated with this line'. Further, the 'changing to' hexagram for both of these lines is 61 - which has names like 'inner truth', 'the truth within'. and 'awareness of a wider reality'. For me these all point to a positive use of one's inner resource.'

That is of course based on an abstract and made-up 'reading' ... but one point for me is, I just do not see it saying, 'the Yi is right, and the ten oracle bone castings are wrong' ... or even how you make use of that - or how you're using it here?

Oracle bone divination was practiced throughout the Shang (and likely much earlier), and lasted into the Zhou, though it's use faded. Over those 1,200 plus years, I am pretty confident that how it was used varied. And I can imagine that during this time, divination became more refined, perhaps more detailed and easier to do - 'easier' meaning that the act of divining was simplier and the tools (a copy of the Zhouyi, yarrow stalks) became more widely available - and not that it became 'easier' to interpret, at least not without experience, apprenticeship and training.

For oracle bone divination, there were instances when a statement was made as a yes/no pair, with the queries sometimes being made to different ancestors or gods (I have never heard of it being asked ten times, though that might be possible): '(the emperor) stated to ancestor X that he will do this; and stated to deity Z that he will not do this (same thing).'

... and thought I suspect it is different, it has the feel of saying 'she loves me, she loves me not' when using daisy flower petal divination.

But it was also often used singularly, ... the emperor states, 'in the next 10-day cycle I will sacrifice (ritually murder) ten horses, fifteen war captives, and twenty slaves'; oracle bone divination was performed, and a response might be, 'This is an auspicious reading. There is no interference from the ancestors (or the particular ancestor or god you were directing the statement to).'

Interestingly, the date of divination, the diviner's and querent's names, and the statement or question were usually recorded on the oracle bones, and I expect that the oracle's response was often recorded. But I don't know if there are any cases where the 'follow-up' was written down, e.g. 'the king made his sacrifice of horses, slaves and captives on the appointed day, and soon after that all the millet fields were flooded and the crops were ruined!'

But since I know just enough about early divination to be dangerous or wrong, I am interested to know more about the sources you're using when you talk about divination and oracle bone use (and that versus Yi usage).

All the best ....

 

[Lavalamp]

I thought the deniers will stay firm with their position.

Baron was mixing the psychic/tarot card readings of his friend with his Yi casting here.
I was pointing out that the Yi has commented on conflict between what the Yi predicts and what other systems predict. So it is aware others might predict something else. And the Yi says those readings cannot successfully oppose the Yi's predictions.
And I don't think it makes for clarity in what the Yi says to impose other systems. Or other systems predictions either. Because 1: such readings can't be peer reviewed as that is not this forum's expertise.
2. It blurs the predictions of the Yi and creates less, not more clairity.

- LL

 

[Freedda]

Baron was mixing the psychic/tarot readings with his Yi casting .... I was pointing out that the Yi has commented on conflict between what the Yi ... and what other systems predict .... And the Yi says those readings cannot successfully oppose the Yi's predictions.

In my post above, I asked if you can explain the case you're making here.

As I understanding it, you are saying we can't mix what the Yi says with what another divination system says - such as a psychic or tarot reading. And further, you are offering 'proof' of this because the Yi has 'commented on' this conflict, presumably with your understanding of lines 41.5 and/or 42.2, which according to Wlihem include the words:

Ten pairs of tortoises cannot oppose it. ​

... and you take this to mean that the Yi is saying it's correct and that other divination systems are wrong. Do I have that about right?

My response:

One, I agree that it is probably best to be discussing Yi readings here, and if people want to discuss tarot or psychic readings it is best to do that in the Exploring Divination forum. However, if someone starts with a psychic reading or whatever, and then consults the Yi about that, then I think that's fine, and sometimes it might mean that they need to refer back to this 'other' reading, for information or clarity.

(And if someone wanted to use another divination method as proof for what they think the Yi is saying, well, I'd likely just not comment on it, or just point out where it doesn't make sense.)

Two, having said that, it seems you are bringing in a totally unrelated Hexgram and line (or lines) and using them at 'proof' for your argument. And for me, that doesn't feel all that much different than bringing in a tarot reading: in both cases, you run the same risk of mixing things in that should not be here or are not really speaking to what the reading is about.

(And in this case, it doesn't seem that the 'ten tortoises' are saying anything about the actual reading, but only your objection to the tarot/psychic part of it.)

Three, I believe you are talking about Lines 41.5. and 42.2, and you are offering these lines as proof of superior or correct Yi divination, because that's what you think the Yi is saying. However, in looking at half a dozen translations and digging at bit into Shang and Zhou divination use, I have found very little that backs up your interpretation.

As I noted above, I've only seen one translation, Wilhelm's, where line 41.5 reads:

Someone does indeed increase him.
Ten pairs of tortoises cannot oppose it.
Supreme good fortune.

(and Wilhelm has the same line about tortoises in 42.2)

But if you look at Wilhelm's commentary he says: 'All oracles - as for instance those that are read from the shells of tortoises - are bound to concur in giving him favorable signs. He need fear nothing , because his luck is ordained from on high.

.... so, Wilhelm's commentary doesn't agree with your interpretation, but more importantly, the translations I mentioned above - Hatcher, Huang, Barrett, Rutt, Richmond - don't say anything about a 'Yi vs. other divination systems' idea!

You are of course free to interpret these lines the way you want. But I also think it's good to offer a different viewpoint, showing ways that these lines (which are not part of the reading to begin with) might be saying something else entirely.

all the best . . .

 

[Lavalamp]

Cleromancy vs. Plastromancy/pyromancy.
Different systems, certainly.

Cleromancy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_bone (plastromancy/pyromancy.)

- LL

 

[Freedda]

Cleromancy / Plastromancy/pyromancy.
Different systems, certainly.

Okay, so? No one here has said otherwise, and stating the obvious - that they are different methods of divination - does not address what I was saying above, and it doesn't support your interpretation of the 'ten tortoise shells' found in the Yi.

 

[Lavalamp]

Well - "Wilhelm/Baynes: Someone does indeed increase him; Ten pairs of tortoises cannot oppose it."
This can be taken to mean that a plastromancy prediction of non-increase can't sucessfully oppose the good fortune the Yi predicts.
I suppose you could also take it as two separate sentences - "Ten pairs of tortoises.(period)" "Cannot oppose it." Meaning *because* of the tortoise shells, rather than in opposition to.
- LL

 

[Freedda]

This can be taken to mean that ....

I suppose you could also take it as ....

So there we have it, an unrelated line from the Yi that may mean very (or completely) different things .... I can live with that, and it seems to fit quite appropriately with baron's very confusing and rambling posts, which seem to me to be a poor attempt to drape his own political views in the Yi.