When people ask you to consult the Yi for them

[dobro p]

When people ask you to consult the Yi for them, do you ever give them some 'training' beforehand? If it was me, I'd say something like:

* The Yi can't tell you about things that you aren't meant to know.

* It works best when you're asking about how to deal with a present situation.

* It works much less well, and the results are much more obscure, when you're asking about future situations.

So, I'm wondering about two things in this post - whether it does any good to share one's views of the limitations of oracle work with a querent, and what you think of the three things I've listed above.

 

[lenardthefast]

Hi Dobro,

I disagree with all three of your points.

Namaste,
Leonard

 

[candid]

Dobro, interesting question, and I think there are variations.

I generally first assume that the requester wants to know what time it is, not how to make a watch. The worst thing I can do is to confuse them with too much information. I then present the reading in a simple manner pertaining to their question, if I happen to be privy to that. The only symbolism I present are those of the trigrams, and how they relate. Then I follow the lead of their questions, which reveals whether or not "how does this work?" comes to play. I also may include quotes from text if I feel they might benefit from that, but that?s discernable according to their interest and their questions.

C

 

[frandoch]

Sorry Dobro - I'm with Leonard on this one.

Blessings.

Michael F.

 

[hilary]

There are definitely variations according to the individual. I give plenty of help with the question, but leave the tricky issue of what anyone might be 'meant to know' firmly to them. I would explain about rephrasing yes/no questions, and if someone is asking along the lines of 'what is fated to happen to me?' I encourage adapting this to 'what can I expect if I carry on doing the same things?' And if the question is 'What does he think?' I always ask, 'Why don't you ask him?'

Candid is right about information overload - a weakness of mine. Doing phone readings, I'm learning to hear when the querent has already got the message and needs to spend time digesting it. But whatever else goes in, I would never, never fail to quote the words of the text. That is the answer. The rest is my idea about what it means.

 

[candid]

Hilary, the text is someone else's idea about what it means. For example, Chris' text would differ from Wilhelm's. LiSe's would differ from Hatcher's. And another IE: I'd never quote Wilhelm's 21 unless there was specifically an instance of legal dispute. What remains constant are the trigrams and their correlations. From these, an understandable explaination is always available.

To me its a matter of what is important to the one I'm reading for, and that usually boils down to "what's in it for me." (meaning for them) In sales speak: people are generally more interested in benefits rather than features.

Generally, my readings are very loosely structured and casual, leaving them room to determine what is applicable and what is not. The further they want to delve, the further I'll go with them, but no farther.

 

[hilary]

Yes, of course there are hordes of different ideas on how to translate the text. (I try for the simplest version I can get to, with the smallest number of 'grammatical additives'.) But let's not lose the baby with the bathwater here. The idea of a lawsuit in #21, for instance, is in there in black and white, and has been for a few millennia: I wouldn't want to be the one to decide it wasn't relevant any more. That's not 'Wilhelm's 21', it's Yi's 21. (Explaining that this is about determination to get through to the truth of the matter, rather than suing about coffee being hot, generally makes sense of it.)

I think what we have here is a variant on one of the oldest arguments in the book: are the words just a wholly dispensable gloss on some pure and abstract structures, are the structures just a handy cataloguing system to reference the words, or might the truth be somewhere between the two? Probably we won't resolve the debate on this particular thread...

Anyway, I've seen enough to know that your readings are outstanding. I don't care in the least how you do them.

(Though having said that, any time you're looking for an online agent to sell a new book on trigram-based interpretation...)

 

[candid]

chuckles...

Hilary, I'm looking forward to responding to this, but I'll be tied up with work awhile before I can tackle it. (the nerve of work, interfering with my Yi interests!)

 

[dobro p]

"Hi Dobro,

I disagree with all three of your points."

Well, okay. But would you alert the querent to what *you* thought was a pertinent approach to consulting the Yi?

In other words, to what extent would you inform the querent of your own understanding of what works and what doesn't work when consulting the Yi?

 

[dobro p]

"Sorry Dobro - I'm with Leonard on this one.

Blessings.

Michael F."

Look, dude, you gotta figure out a way to be more useful to me if you sign off 'blessings'. It's not enough to wish someone well as you're leaving them out in the dark LOL.

Why are you with Leonard on this one?

 

[dobro p]

Hilary, thanks for your thoughts - it's useful.

"I give plenty of help with the question, but leave the tricky issue of what anyone might be 'meant to know' firmly to them."

I think I understand what you're saying, but let me ask you this: Do you think the Yi gives people the chance to know something they aren't ready or qualified to know? See, I think life stays obscure until you're ripe to understand. That's what I mean by 'the Yi can't tell you things you aren't meant to know'. But a lot of people approach the Yi like it's some kind of magic revealer. Some people approach the Yi as if the questions they're asking are the ones they really need to ask. Both approaches are often faulty.

This is the part of your reply that I want to explore. The rest of your reply seems like what an experienced would have to say on the subject.

 

[hilary]

I think you've got to try some 'alerting': for instance, that asking about how someone else feels or what they intend is a minefield. Whether this does any good, as Dobro so pertinently asked, is another kettle/can of fish/worms altogether. Sometimes it seems to, but then I wonder whether my 'alert' didn't just happen to coincide with the querent's own realisation. At other times it's water off a duck's back, and I just leave be: I'm not a natural evangelist. The horse'll return by itself, I reckon.

 

[portakal]

Dobro;

* The Yi can't tell you about things that you aren't meant to know.

} Did you "read" this somewhere or is it "conventional" ?, perhaps the yi cant tell certain people some certain things, no, impossible ? or are you rolling laughing ?

* It works best when you're asking about how to deal with a present situation.
* It works much less well, and the results are much more obscure, when you're asking about future situations.
} I cant agree less, this must be your very personal evaluation, how many times did you ask of future situations and got fuzzy answers ? did you count it ? Or were you inclined from the beginning to stay in the "convention" and decide the abovementioned sentences oy "yours" were truthful.
Peacefully

 

[pedro]

Dobro, what do you mean by "not meant to know?"
Why would anything be not meant to be known? I think that the mere wanting to know is evidence that you are meant to know?

I mean, if one is not ready to know, then one is not even aware that one wants to know, or what one wants to know...

In either case it makes no difference: ask and the Yi will answer, maybe in terms that we cant yet understand, but that we certainly are meant to understand sooner or later

 

[dobro p]

dobro writes: The Yi can't tell you about things that you aren't meant to know.

Portakal asks: Did you "read" this somewhere or is it "conventional"?

dobro answers: Neither. It's my present understanding based on experience.

dobro asks: Hey Portakal, have you ever done a reading for someone who asked you to do it?

 

[dobro p]

Pedro asks: Dobro, what do you mean by "not meant to know?"

Pedro, do *you* need to know what I need to know to live my life well? I think not. You're not meant to know that. Do *you* need to know what Portakal needs to know to live his life well? Again, I don't think so. Do you need to know how the universe operates overall, or even in this or that particular? Nope, I don't think so. So, what do you need to know? Only this - you need to know how to live your own life well, how to grow, how to develop your character. Everything else is beyond the range of what you need to know. You don't *need* to know why light travels at the speed it does, or exactly how babies develop in wombs, or even why your girlfriend loves you - those things can take care of themselves. So, if that's the case, then there are *lots and lots* of things that the querent doesn't need to know. Querents ask stuff that only God and the angels are privy to. Sheesh. Somebody ought to tell them.

"In either case it makes no difference: ask and the Yi will answer, maybe in terms that we cant yet understand, but that we certainly are meant to understand sooner or later"

Yeah, right. 'Later' is often the operative word.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Dobro,

IMHO, the Yi is a path of personal study. If somebody is looking for a fortune teller they are a dime-a-dozen out there. If somebody ask you to consult the Yi for them and you feel some kind of disclaimer should be given, you can only express to them what your experience with the Yi is, nothing more. The only problem with that is that any opinions given are heavily laden with personal bias and could affect that person's future relationship with the Yi, if, of course, him/her decides to pursue the study. In that case, it is very difficult to rid oneself of others' people biases when you are starting the study of a new subject. Much more so when the subject is something like the Yi.

Which brings me full circle to what I said in the first statement: My opinion is that the Yi, if there is any seriousness to their approach, should be studied and consulted on a one-to-one basis. For fortune telling there is no need for disclaimers.

What is the need for disclaimers anyway? You mentioned doing some counseling work where you live. Do you walk around with your credentials hanging from your neck with an explanation on the back? Does a Dr? Right, they have them on the wall of their offices, but do patients need to take a class of Gross Anatomy before they see a Dr? It may help them understand some diagnoses but you don't need a class to know you've got to go and see the Dr in the first place. Does the metaphor makes sense?

If somebody needs further info on the subject they should study it themselves. Unless of course, one is giving away Yi courses. That's not consulting the Yi though.

Mind you, you can do all what you've said in the opening message and you will. It will work on neophytes. For the rest, and I mean people who's walked the Yi path for a while, they will know your expressions are only your opinion on the subject. Nothing more. Exactly the same way you should take what I've said here.

Luis

 

[pedro]

Yes, I see your point, its a good one. Yet I have done successful readings for people who didnt even tell me what they were questioning about... So perhaps one doesnt need to know, but instead one needs to throw in sufficient pieces of the puzzle so that the querent can choose the relevant bits... It can be complicated, no doubt, but I think Hilary's approach is a sensible one: quoting the text as core meaning, at least then you know you've supplied most of what's needed

 

[candid]

(in-between calls and so, brief)

Hilary,

Using again 21 as an example: If you?re doing a reading for someone who has no lawsuit pending or legal issue to deal with, but has difficulty getting off their butt to take care of important business, or who is distraught over any sort of decision, or is experiencing a sense of disharmony with themselves or their surroundings, or who has been unable to reconcile an important relationship, a lawsuit analogy could only serve to confuse them. The idea is to bite through the obstruction, whatever that might be in their case. So in these instances I would not mention the idea of a lawsuit.

One might ask, then why did this person receive 21 rather than 6, which deals more with civil matters than legal? I?d say that its because its not a matter of meeting the opponent half-way, as 6 would advise, but of making a judgment call and acting on it with vigor. A decision must be made now and action must follow in order to bite through the obstacle. Fire springs upward from thunder below ? a powerful and bright action from within, the picture of a volcano. Of course this primitive image has been seen by primitive people (few millennia ago) as being the judgment of God or the gods, but the metaphor reaches greatly beyond the limitations of such a literal (textbook) interpretation.

Another rendition, depending upon their circumstance, could be expressed as "biting the bullet," or bearing down as in childbirth.

What newcomer would want to sort through all this? They typically just want a simple answer to their question.

I'm not suggesting this is the only valid way of interpreting. We each use the gifts and understanding we have.

C

 

[pedro]

Luis, I agree it should be on a one-to-one basis ideally. Yet most people dont have the time, or drive, or whatever that would make them gain a thorough insight of the Yi, and for those people, a lot would be lost if there were not well intended souls willing to share their more or less limited understanding

One can more harm than good? yes, its a possibility, but I think the keyword here is trust. One must be responsible for whatever advice one gives, be it derived from the Yi or not.

And in the end, it doesnt really matter what you say to people, they will always find something that helps (but that is another question altogether)

 

[Sparhawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Querents ask stuff that only God and the angels are privy to. Sheesh. Somebody ought to tell them.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahem! That was the approach of the church in the Dark Ages! All the way up to the Inquisition.

To use that word again, nothing short of death can stop a really inquisitive mind. Those and many other like questions will be asked. Who knows, an answer may be found someday... Again, many have been found already.

Luis

 

[hilary]

Luis - "you can only express to them what your experience with the Yi is, nothing more."

Yes!

My ideas about what's possible have to do with what I can manage, and not a fat lot to do with the oracle. It would be absurd to think I could even begin to anticipate how Yi would respond to the kinds of questions I 'mediate'. When people ask about things light-years beyond my capacities - which if I'm honest must be every single time I divine for someone... - I just dive in and trust the oracle. And generally find out much, much later that I've been talking sense in ways I never suspected.

In between readings, myself, so very brief indeed! But volcanoes, Candid? Loads of associations for me with explosive energy, massive death and destruction, the entombed desperate corpses of Pompeii...

 

[Sparhawk]

Pedro,

There's no disagreement here. I've nothing against doing consultations for third parties. I've done it myself many times. My issue is with disclaimers like: "this will work only half way of the extent you think or wish for" You may believe it is loaded with honesty, something which is always much appreciated, but in reality, and particularly on the subject of the Yi, it is only a very personal opinion. If I was the querent I'd turn may back and leave.

Alas, we live in a litigious society. Dobro may not be completely wrong (IMO,

)Using the Drs. again, one must sign a stack of papers with disclaimers before they agree to see you. That's only to tell you that whatever happens to you in their hands is never their fault. So much for responsibility...

Luis

 

[dobro p]

dobro said: Querents ask stuff that only God and the angels are privy to. Sheesh. Somebody ought to tell them.

Sparhawk responded: Ahem! That was the approach of the church in the Dark Ages! All the way up to the Inquisition.

You might be right. Maybe when somebody asks me: "Does he love me?" I'm an inquisitorial persecutor when I respond: "I don't know, and maybe the Yi doesn't want you to know either."

What do you think?

 

[portakal]

[dobro asks: Hey Portakal, have you ever done a reading for someone who asked you to do it? ]
p: Yes i have several times, for your unnecessary informational needs.
-----------

" what do you need to know? ...you need to know how to live your own life well, how to grow, how to develop your character. Everything else is beyond the range of what you need to know. "

These words sound so arrogantly, knowing all !
I need to know how the universe came to being, any man of independent reason/ ration needs to know how things work and why they work that particular way.

Of course some may choose to stay in a certain "convention" of "c'mon, let's unknow !" for their best sake, i can only respect their choices but insisting that the WAY is to unknow and develop a nice ignorant old character, no thank you.

Btw; when was the last time you felt you had a young spirit ?

 

[dobro p]

Portakal, the reason I asked you if you'd ever done a reading for someone was to encourage you to stick to the topic. You tend to stray.

 

[Sparhawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

You might be right. Maybe when somebody asks me: "Does he love me?" I'm an inquisitorial persecutor when I respond: "I don't know, and maybe the Yi doesn't want you to know either."<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

You see, in my experience the Yi has never failed to give me an answer. Would I have the enough amount of brains to interpret the answer? Well, for that, in many instances, I'm sure I am in a much shorter supply of gray matter than I care to admit...

When was the last time you tossed the coins and no Hexagram came up?

Luis

 

[portakal]

Dobro,
I dont believe you are wording the truth, yo do stray.

This is my (my accord of yijin's) last sentence for you in this topic;

15->46.
You rise up witholding modesty in your form.

Have a nice night.

 

[candid]

Dobro: "What do you think?"

I think I'd not do a reading on such a question, but would steer them to a question that might be satisfied through a reading.

Hilary, and a legal dispute could conjure images of mass murderers being brought to justice through war? Both examples are extreme, neither is likely to be accurate for the average reading. But the image IS that of fire bursting upward from within a mountain, when using the trigram approach. Using all 6 lines is, of course, teeth biting through an obstacle. Metaphorically, they express the same ideas.

C

 

[candid]

Luis, with due respect, I've never had to sign disclaimers to receive council or a diagnosis from a doctor, nor to receive treatment that wasn't potentially life threatening. In short, I never make decisions for them and I offer no guarantees. That is always up to them and as such, it is their liability, not mine. I merely offer what I can. I?ve never met an infallible practitioner of any kind, nor have I read an infallible interpretation of Yi, especially when taken literally.