When will the crisis be over? 17.1 - 45.

[moss elk]

This idea that the crisis is over when people go outside and lockdown is rescinded could not be more wrong.

Agreed, that's why I was trying to teach the querant.

The line could mean that the ‘change of heart’ is to actually understand the pandemic for what it is

Nope.
I don't think you understand this line.
It is a literal answer here.

Some translations say,
"Standards will change"
Or
"An official has a change of heart"

Both mean the same thing.
This one is not internal to the querant,
It refers to government mandates.

 

[my_key]

This idea that the crisis is over when people go outside and lockdown is rescinded could not be more wrong. That has all clearly worsened the crisis. Now we have many new variants, most of the world still unvaccinated, and as many deaths a day as ever, even with vaccines and medications. That was obviously an incorrect interpretation of the line. People believing the crisis is over and going out of the gates doesn’t mean it actually is over.

I think it is important to recognise that rosada asked this question the best part of 2 years ago in 2020. So 17.1 <> 45 then could have been indicating that the crisis will be over when things have come together sufficiently to allow the old ways of seeing what making the crisis come into a new light,

Maybe that time is now. COVID has no doubt contributed to many deaths. Many more through comorbidity that through acting alone. The average age of the people who have died is 82 years old.

Whether your belief is conspiracy theory led or one based solely in the dangers, hurt and suffering caused by the virus, what has been energised worldwide is a deep sense of fear and injustice. Fear of death and dying; fear of the unknown; fear things being unfair and weighted against you. Perhaps many other things to.

COVID started as B1.1 then changed to alpha, then delta and now to omicron strains. Each transformation has brought it's own unique set of conditions, and with each transformation the virus is becoming more transferrable and at the same time less virulent. Easier to pass on and less powerful.

Science now understands that omicron is not the same beast as B1.1 and does not need to be feared so much. (I'm not sure how clear this has been made by main stream media). Medical understanding of how to treat hospitalised cases, the vaccination programs and the social measures that have been introduced have all made a contribution to reducing the impact of the virus. Omicron is so transmittable that it is becoming the most prevalent strain: which is good news: it is not such a danger as earlier versions. COVID is a coronavirus which is in the same family as influenza. Latest information shows that the symptoms from omicron are mirroring that of flu.

In the UK approx 17,000 people die each year of an endemic flu virus (despite a rigorous vaccination program). COVID, coronavirus, omicron - whatever you want to call it - is now being viewed not as pandemic but more so as endemic - something we have to learn to live with, And yes people will still die through comorbidity aspects of omicron just as they do with flu.

Most of this information I have stated here has been repeated from You Tube daily videos made by Dr John Campbell, based in UK. He reviews latest statistics and published scientific papers to give a grounded perspective of things in the COVID world. His view and that of many of his learned colleagues is that the crisis is over. For me, he tells it how it is which is not something that main stream media has excelled itself in. His information comes from many recent studies centred in USA, South Africa, India, Norway, UK, Australia and many other countries so can be trusted.

The line could mean that the ‘change of heart’ is to actually understand the pandemic for what it is, (something that lasts at least a few years, as have other pandemics, for one) and which demands collective response (joining with others) that isn’t just based on arbitrary rules being implemented or taken away. The crisis ends when the perspective on what a pandemic is changes, people acknowledge they conjectured wrong, and there is unity in approach or at least a more global-minded and equity-minded approach.

So, if 17.1 <> 45 is indicating that the crisis will be over when knowledge has come together sufficiently to allow the old perspectives that are defining the crisis to be seen in a new light, then it looks to me like that time is now.

... or it might be nothing like that at all.

 

[rosada]

I'm seeing Gathering Together as the second hexagram as describing not as what to do to make it be over, but rather as describing what it will look like when the crisis really is over.

So it's like the question was, "When will people be able to safely gather together?" and the response is 17.1," When the leaders and news influencers have a change of heart and stop making this a political issue (An official has a change of heart),
Consistently follow the medical advice - vaccinating, quarantining and wearing masks (Constancy, good fortune)
Before going out of gates and joining with others, then there is achievement:

Then the crisis will end and then we can
45. Gather.

 

[rosada]

Further thought -
Maybe the "change of heart" is the coming realization that the crisis is never going to be completely over in that covid is never going to be completely eradicated, but we can learn to live with it. Thus the crisis is over when we learn how to gather in groups while remembering to keep distance and to wear masks - and all the other things one must do in a group as the image for 45. advises, to "warn against the unexpected."

 

[Olga Super Star]

When writing this I've heard that the restrictions connected with the pandemic are going to be ended soon in my country.

Lucky you. Mine has gone completely crazy, with restrictions being hardened day by day and people not being allowed to have a glass of water outside in the open air or work unless they have had three shots (two are not considered enough).

 

[surnevs]

Olga, lucky you. That your government takes this crisis seriously. My own personal point of view on that my government opens up now is solely for money. If I understood my Chinese friend in my Chinese restaurant right they are still in China taken this crisis extremely serious.
What I kind of feels lucky about is that a result showed up concerning my prediction, namely that the crisis didn't end in September. Rosada's initial questions were to me as an invitation to test this system with Shao Yong's circular arrangement of the 64 hexagrams in relation to time. And it could have been any other crisis than the corona pandemic for that matter...

 

[redoleander]

Maybe that time is now. COVID has no doubt contributed to many deaths. Many more through comorbidity that through acting alone. The average age of the people who have died is 82 years old.

... or it might be nothing like that at all.

This is eugenics, unfortunately. “Comorbidity” is insurance company language used to dismiss death and illness of people considered disposable by fascism, capitalism, and other dehumanizing influences (and specifically to keep insurance from having to pay for their healthcare).

Elderly, medically vulnerable, disabled people, indigenous people, frontline workers, healthcare workers (over 4K have died in the U.S. alone and about 50% of people with long COVID are healthcare workers), people not eligible for vaccination — these are not disposable people. You are are using eugenic (nazi) ideology here couched as rationalism. If you’re not familiar with eugenics and its history you might not know that though, so perhaps it is not intentional and simply not thought through. You can read more on this here and here, to start.


COVID-19 does not have the characteristics of an endemic virus. If you were familiar with the definition of endemicity prior to the pandemic, you will know that pundits and government have entirely changed the definition now to suit them in this situation. COVID spread still meets all criteria of epidemic disease. Endemicity also does not mean “mild”. There are deadly viruses that are endemic that people do “live with” all over the world, constantly causing pain and suffering and tragedy. 'Endemicity' is the rebranding of 'herd immunity' by the same people who were repeatedly wrong about how close we've been to achieving herd immunity. They're now moving to claiming we've reached endemicity, regardless of what the term actually means - just like they did before. This is a good explainer on that if you are new to public health. (Malaria, for example, is endemic. Would hardly call that a mild disease.)

Unfortunately the shared information about the severity of Omicron is also incorrect. I would suggest seeking out currently practicing hospitalists who are directly treating severe cases of Omicron for this type of information on what is happening on the ground. There are many MDs with firsthand information trying to bring attention to how the variant is being downplayed. It’s easy to theorize on YouTube far from overrun hospitals which are bursting at the seams with severely ill and dying patients. The U.S. is experiencing, for example, the same number of daily deaths as last year, even with half our population vaccinated this time (which was not the case last year.) There is a significant lag time between infection and death which is taken advantage of at the beginning of each wave to declare the variant “mild”. (They actually did the same with Delta, if you go back and look at corporate news. Neither has turned out to be true.) They declared Omicron “mild” prematurely for political (financial) reasons, not scientific or medical.

Most everyone has a comorbidity when it comes down to it. Being alive is comorbidity. A child with asthma or who is considered overweight, or an adult for that matter, is not disposable. Their life matters. The lives of people with comorbidities matter, including my own. You might want to research some terms: ableism and eugenics. (Also, you might be interested in the Koch brothers funding of things like AIER and Great Barrington Declaration which produce a lot of the type of info you’re citing. Here is one place. It is economically motivated, not scientifically motivated.)

 

[redoleander]

I think it is important to recognise that rosada asked this question the best part of 2 years ago in 2020. So 17.1 <> 45 then could have been indicating that the crisis will be over when things have come together sufficiently to allow the old ways of seeing what making the crisis come into a new light,

I wasn’t responding to @rosada original interpretation but to one written here just the other day saying that it’s obvious that’s what the line means here. My interpretation is aligned with what Rosada wrote in the above responses and those interpretations make sense to me.

 

[Trojina]

This is merely a personal opinion but I ask myself in this instance whether anything more has been gained from trying to get a prediction from Yi than would have been gained by plain reflection, thought and ordinary discussion. I mean scientists told us from the start this was going to go on. Mind you one could say this about any number of queries, that actually you just get to the point you would have done anyway without asking Yi about it. With global questions and political questions mostly it feels to me answers are simply cloaks for personal opinion and I guess that often applies to personal queries too but less so I think.

My personal opinion is Rosada's answer applies for Rosada two years ago, I really couldn't take it as any more than that.

 

[Olga Super Star]

A child with asthma or who is considered overweight, or an adult for that matter, is not disposable. Their life matters. The lives of people with comorbidities matter, including my own.

Sure all lives matter. But the same scientists and doctors, at least in my country, are starting to say that the government is behaving crazy. The pandemic has changed, it is not as serious as it used to be. Not everyone needs 3 shots, and viruses exist, we have to learn to live with them. The over 80s are more at risk every day for a series of things. Is it worth closing children up in their homes for years and years in order to prolong elderly people's lives? (And what kind of life? A life when they can't play cards or can't go outside to have a walk or can't see anyone?)

Someone in my government has even suggested that children keep silent during lunch at school. Or that they eat one at a time, not moving, not looking around them, not even glancing to their mates.
This is nonsense and it has to stop. What sort of adults are they going to be? Suicide among children and teenagers is rising. Personal relationships are as important as everything else, we can't go on just showing a health pass to go shopping and not speaking to the neighbour. We are not robots.

We all stopped and shut down willingly for two years in order to end the virus. It hasn't ended, tant pis: we need to go back to normal, those who fall ill will be treated. Those who don't want to fall ill because they feel they are particularly at risk can decide to stay home themselves, but can't expect everyone to do the same ad libitum.

Data say we have far more people dying from cancer every day than from covid. But the government isn't closing down polluting factories. It isn't doing anything about an area when little children die from leukemia about 500% more than in other areas. They just shut down restaurants, theatres, hotels. Millions will be left without jobs, what about their home mortgages? it is going to be a disaster.

Most of the cases now are of people having covid and not even realizing they have it.
Since we need to test to even go to the post office (and I am not joking), the number of people testing positive and officially "ill" is incredibly high. But 99.3% of these "ill" people is home without any symptoms or simply sneezing. This is absolutely ridiculous. The government should be treating ill people and let healthy people live as normal as they can.

 

[redoleander]

Sure all lives matter. But the same scientists and doctors, at least in my country, are starting to say that the government is behaving crazy. The pandemic has changed, it is not as serious as it used to be. Not everyone needs 3 shots, and viruses exist, we have to learn to live with them. The over 80s are more at risk every day for a series of things. Is it worth closing children up in their homes for years and years in order to prolong elderly people's lives? (And what kind of life? A life when they can't play cards or can't go outside to have a walk or can't see anyone?)

Someone in my government has even suggested that children keep silent during lunch at school. Or that they eat one at a time, not moving, not looking around them, not even glancing to their mates.
This is nonsense and it has to stop. What sort of adults are they going to be? Suicide among children and teenagers is rising. Personal relationships are as important as everything else, we can't go on just showing a health pass to go shopping and not speaking to the neighbour. We are not robots.

We all stopped and shut down willingly for two years in order to end the virus. It hasn't ended, tant pis: we need to go back to normal, those who fall ill will be treated. Those who don't want to fall ill because they feel they are particularly at risk can decide to stay home themselves, but can't expect everyone to do the same ad libitum.

Data say we have far more people dying from cancer every day than from covid. But the government isn't closing down polluting factories. It isn't doing anything about an area when little children die from leukemia about 500% more than in other areas. They just shut down restaurants, theatres, hotels. Millions will be left without jobs, what about their home mortgages? it is going to be a disaster.

Most of the cases now are of people having covid and not even realizing they have it.
Since we need to test to even go to the post office (and I am not joking), the number of people testing positive and officially "ill" is incredibly high. But 99.3% of these "ill" people is home without any symptoms or simply sneezing. This is absolutely ridiculous. The government should be treating ill people and let healthy people live as normal as they can.

Right, yes, you should have to test to go to the post office. This could prevent you from spreading COVID. It’s basically hygiene and decency. In Japan they don’t talk during lunch because, yes, it is a way for kids to be in school and be much less likely to spread COVID. And it’s worked very well for them. In a society that values all members, different choices are made. You can see that clearly in the difference between Asian and European countries, for example (or Asia and the U.S.).

This is a great thread with links to data that show suicide is not up among children (it actually went down during lockdown). If you want to do whatever you want, then just say that. Using kids as props when they don’t have an actual say as to whether or not they get infected is dishonest. Children have a right to be protected. If only adults were mature enough to understand that behavior should change during a pandemic.

You have expressed all over these forums that you’re antivaxx and anti quarantine and it’s always about yourself. What you want to do for yourself. I think maybe just say that instead of pretending it’s data-based? Because it really isn’t.

 

[Olga Super Star]

If I understood my Chinese friend in my Chinese restaurant right they are still in China taken this crisis extremely serious.

But in China they have installed a covid dictatorship no-one I know would like to live in..
They follow you around and your personal freedom is greatly at stake. If a person is found positive, they are capable of shutting a 3 million city down, and that person is taken and being made to stay for I don't know how many days in a covid structure.

We have seen a couple of documentaries on tv, it has become almost impossible for people who used to work there to continue their business.

This is not the society I want. I strongly oppose this social credit system.
I don't want to have to show a pass to go places. I don't want the restaurant waitress to know if I got vaccinated or not. It doesn't concern them and it doesn't make the least difference in spreading the virus. I know of people who got 3 shots and had covid twice!

The next step will be that the health pass will tell whether I have any condition or whether I have political issues or paid my taxes. I was born free on this earth and no one has the right to say I need a stamp on a piece of paper to go to have a picnic in the park. I was willing to restrain myself for two years, but this can't go on forever, and the rules they are introducing have no scientific base.

If I wear a good mask and sit by myself in the open air, sipping a glass of water in the open air can't damage anyone. Going to walk along the river by myself can't be of damage to anyone. It can only benefit me as it strengthens my immune system.

It should be compulsory to go and have a walk actually. If they really cared about our health, walks and orange juices would be mandatory, don't you think?

 

[redoleander]

But in China they have installed a covid dictatorship no-one I know would like to live in..
They follow you around and your personal freedom is greatly at stake. If a person is found positive, they are capable of shutting a 3 million city down, and that person is taken and being made to stay for I don't know how many days in a covid structure.

We have seen a couple of documentaries on tv, it has become almost impossible for people who used to work there to continue their business.

This is not the society I want. I strongly oppose this social credit system.
I don't want to have to show a pass to go places. I don't want the restaurant waitress to know if I got vaccinated or not. It doesn't concern them and it doesn't make the least difference in spreading the virus. I know of people who got 3 shots and had covid twice!

The next step will be that the health pass will tell whether I have any condition or whether I have political issues or paid my taxes. I was born free on this earth and no one has the right to say I need a stamp on a piece of paper to go to have a picnic in the park. I was willing to restrain myself for two years, but this can't go on forever, and the rules they are introducing have no scientific base.

If I wear a good mask and sit by myself in the open air, sipping a glass of water in the open air can't damage anyone. Going to walk along the river by myself can't be of damage to anyone. It can only benefit me as it strengthens my immune system.

It should be compulsory to go and have a walk actually. If they really cared about our health, walks and orange juices would be mandatory, don't you think?

China has actually seen the greatest increase in life expectancy for the population than anywhere else in the world in the last seventy five years. This has been done by lifting people out of poverty, providing food, housing, and medical care. It makes sense that they would also protect their citizens from COVID. China has had more of a return to normal life in the past two years than really any other country. People have been able to live normal lives because they employed temporary measures to control COVID. Summer 2020 they had full return to normal life, huge concerts and gatherings, and no COVID. Just a few months into the pandemic. They return to lockdown when necessary to control the spread.

Orange juice and walks are the wealthy (relative to most of the world) white person version of health promotion. People who already have the other social determinants of good health say things like this all the time, in ignorance. Good health for a population requires a lot more than that. It’s not just about saying “take vitamins” and go for a walk. Probably should study some of this at a deeper level.

 

[Olga Super Star]

Right, yes, you should have to test to go to the post office. This could prevent you from spreading COVID. It’s basically hygiene and decency.

You have expressed all over these forums that you’re antivaxx and anti quarantine and it’s always about yourself. What you want to do for yourself. I think maybe just say that instead of pretending it’s data-based? Because it really isn’t.

Excuse me?!
I don't allow you to say that, how do you dare.
I am the most cautious person I know on this earth about coronavirus. So much that people have been making fun of me. I have to say my solitary nature has helped me in making this easy, so it hasn't been particularly difficult, but now after two years I am starting to have enough.

I haven't seen anyone in two years. I always wear the most protective mask when I go around, and no, I am not going to test to go into the post office because doctors themselves say it is a stupid rule.

Most people around even elderly ones don't wear the protective kind of mask, and keep going to the restaurant and mix with other people. And you are blaming me?

Also, I don't have any covid so I can't possibly spread it around. Those who spread it around are usually people who mix with others. Not me.

The only thing I am saying is you can't possibly think this is going to last forever. Not for me, not for anyone else.

I am glad about Japanese people not talking, good for them. Applause.
But I am not Japanese nor Scandinavian, I come from a different culture and my people are not going to eat silently, of that I can be sure. This suggestion was immediately flushed down the toilet.
Do you think you could ask the French to stop eating cheese? Or the English to stop going to the pub?

Also, we are a gang animal. Like wolves. We live in society. Men are not born to live by themselves. It is contrary to our nature. The brain does suffer from it.
Children do suffer. I am not saying it, psychiatrists are saying it on tv. I trust them.
Also, you may not notice it because you may be living in a decent society like England. England had restrictions but not as crazy as the ones we are having now.

We probably see life differently. Life isn't just breathing to me, it's much more.

You know that most men spread a sexual virus that causes cervix cancer to young women?
But that vaccine isn't mandatory and I don't hear anyone inviting boys to have that vaccine or to avoid going with prostitutes or to have less sexual partners. Since it only concerns women (50% of the population), governments don't really care. And people keep having sex and risk it. Because risk is part of life.
Considering data and statistics I am far more at risk with this other virus than with coronavirus. So it's not just about myself. It's about 99% of the population who does not risk that much from it now. If a new variant should come out, we'll see. We'll deal with it. Maybe we will need to shut down again. But not now with this one.

 

[Moderators]

This thread is now being moved to Open Space given it has become far more a discussion of views than the reading.

Also at this point please post any further questions about Covid or the vaccine in Open Space. This is because questions on these topics always tend to become quite heated discussions so it is better they begin in Open Space to start with. For a time we also had this policy with political questions.

 

[Olga Super Star]

Orange juice and walks are the wealthy (relative to most of the world) white person version of health promotion. People who already have the other social determinants of good health say things like this all the time, in ignorance. Good health for a population requires a lot more than that. It’s not just about saying “take vitamins” and go for a walk. Probably should study some of this at a deeper level.

Of course I am speaking from my point of view and about my own country.
Surely in Subsaharian Africa they have other problems and going for a walk won't solve them.

I am speaking about my own government.
If they cared, they would ban Coca Cola and promote orange juice instead of silent lunches.
This is science. Doctors on tv have been saying that. They have been inviting people to go out and get some sunshine because the only thing combating a virus is your immune system, and being shut down in solitude for two years eating stuff from cans is no good.

Thank you about your info on China. My only Chinese friend escaped and is very critical of the government. It's a way of life absolutely incompatible with what we are used to in my country, I am sure no one wants to head there, where you are being told how many children you need to have or not have. But it's not white criticism, it's just that each their own culture. We are not robots, we are shaped by thousand years of culture.

 

[Trojina]

I haven't seen anyone in two years.

Anyone who reads your threads in CC will know that isn't true Olga. I'm rather shocked you say this here do you want me to link you to the threads you talk about where you've been? This wasn't long ago either.

Most of the cases now are of people having covid and not even realizing they have it.
Since we need to test to even go to the post office (and I am not joking), the number of people testing positive and officially "ill" is incredibly high. But 99.3% of these "ill" people is home without any symptoms or simply sneezing. This is absolutely ridiculous. The government should be treating ill people and let healthy people live as normal as they can.

Well that's because people without symptoms can spread Covid. What you have written in the first sentence is exactly why Covid spreads so fast, because people don't know they have it. You say the government should be treating ill people, they are trying to prevent illness with these measures how can that be under any question whatsoever!?

 

[rosada]

Your observation that despite their negative affect on health the government doesn't ban companies like Coca Cola from operating opened my eyes, Olga. Thank you. I never thought about it that way. Yeah, if we care so much about the kids, or the whole population for that matter, why are these obviously deadly practices still allowed to continue? I think how we're advised that people with other health issues are more at risk for covid and what are the other health issues? One of the biggest is obesity and why is obesity suddenly such a wide spread problem? It wasn't a problem at all when I was a kid but now a huge proportion of the population is over weight, why? Because of the sugar put in our food - but does the government object? Nope, the manufacturers are given the stamp of approval and the population is blamed for eating their food. Likewise the government funds companies that create diseases and then blames the population for getting sick. Weird.

 

[Trojina]

People have a choice whether to drink Cola. They have to buy it to drink it. They did not have a choice not to get Covid so these things are in no way comparable.

 

[Trojina]

They have been inviting people to go out and get some sunshine because the only thing combating a virus is your immune system, and being shut down in solitude for two years eating stuff from cans is no good.

Well no, the reason the virus is in retreat is due to the vaccine.

 

[my_key]

This is eugenics, unfortunately. “Comorbidity” is insurance company language used to dismiss death and illness of people considered disposable by fascism, capitalism, and other dehumanizing influences (and specifically to keep insurance from having to pay for their healthcare).

Elderly, medically vulnerable, disabled people, indigenous people, frontline workers, healthcare workers (over 4K have died in the U.S. alone and about 50% of people with long COVID are healthcare workers), people not eligible for vaccination — these are not disposable people. You are are using eugenic (nazi) ideology here couched as rationalism. If you’re not familiar with eugenics and its history you might not know that though, so perhaps it is not intentional and simply not thought through. You can read more on this here and here, to start.


COVID-19 does not have the characteristics of an endemic virus. If you were familiar with the definition of endemicity prior to the pandemic, you will know that pundits and government have entirely changed the definition now to suit them in this situation. COVID spread still meets all criteria of epidemic disease. Endemicity also does not mean “mild”. There are deadly viruses that are endemic that people do “live with” all over the world, constantly causing pain and suffering and tragedy. 'Endemicity' is the rebranding of 'herd immunity' by the same people who were repeatedly wrong about how close we've been to achieving herd immunity. They're now moving to claiming we've reached endemicity, regardless of what the term actually means - just like they did before. This is a good explainer on that if you are new to public health. (Malaria, for example, is endemic. Would hardly call that a mild disease.)

Unfortunately the shared information about the severity of Omicron is also incorrect. I would suggest seeking out currently practicing hospitalists who are directly treating severe cases of Omicron for this type of information on what is happening on the ground. There are many MDs with firsthand information trying to bring attention to how the variant is being downplayed. It’s easy to theorize on YouTube far from overrun hospitals which are bursting at the seams with severely ill and dying patients. The U.S. is experiencing, for example, the same number of daily deaths as last year, even with half our population vaccinated this time (which was not the case last year.) There is a significant lag time between infection and death which is taken advantage of at the beginning of each wave to declare the variant “mild”. (They actually did the same with Delta, if you go back and look at corporate news. Neither has turned out to be true.) They declared Omicron “mild” prematurely for political (financial) reasons, not scientific or medical.

Most everyone has a comorbidity when it comes down to it. Being alive is comorbidity. A child with asthma or who is considered overweight, or an adult for that matter, is not disposable. Their life matters. The lives of people with comorbidities matter, including my own. You might want to research some terms: ableism and eugenics. (Also, you might be interested in the Koch brothers funding of things like AIER and Great Barrington Declaration which produce a lot of the type of info you’re citing. Here is one place. It is economically motivated, not scientifically motivated.)

Hi redoleander
I am familiar with much of the information you cite here and am aware of the political and financial implications you express. I do not share all of your views around them.

I'm mindful of the question 'When will the crisis be over?' so will attempt to remain focused on that while replying to some of your points.

I use the term 'comorbidity' purely in the sense that more than one disease or medical condition is present at the same time and do not believe that it is just insurance company language. Another study, again Dr John Campbell, compared people who had not been vaccinated, not had covid before or did not have a diagnosed comorbidity when contracting any of the covid strains with the rest of the population that contracted covid ( USA based data - California and NY if memory serves me well). The deaths for people with a comorbidity were 8 times more than those who had come into coronavirus contact for the first time and had no medical cormorbidity diagnosed i.e Covid was the sole cause of death cited on the death certificate.

This seems to indicate that Covid magnifies ( I don't know if that is the right word, but the best I could come up with) the affect of the comorbidity or perhaps reduces the ability of the body to contend with the existing conditions with as much resilience as it had before.

So, you are right that "Endemicity also does not mean “mild”, and that is not something I would have intentionally conveyed. I do not believe that. What has been shown is that hospitalisations under omicron have become less; deaths have reduced; length of high infection has reduced from 10 days to 5 days ( hence lower levels of isolation required) and similarly average time that people are severely impacted by the virus has reduced by an equal amount. This virus is becoming part of the furniture just like influenza, malaria and the like but it is not mild. Science is now placing it close to influenza as a comparable disease.

There is in the videos, and the data present, a recognised lag between the stage of recovery in USA and UK. USA lags behind UK but I was not paying enough attention to be able to quote a specific period here.

So when will the crisis be over. It seems in the UK it is and maybe it's going to take a few more weeks for the USA to follow suit as it position unfolds. It seems there are different opinions in the medical world ( rightly so) but what I like about John Campbell's perspective is that he is using data and papers that are right up to date.

All we can do is wait and see what the future holds.

Good Luck

 

[rosada]

"These things are in no way comparable" Really Trogina, you don't understand the comparison at all?

 

[Trojina]

As I have already said, in the end people do have a choice as to whether to drink coke or not. People did not have a choice whether to have Covid or not.

Looking back to find the point Olga was making it seems to be in support of her idea that her government imposes restrictions not because they care, not because they don't want their hospitals overflowing, morgues overflowing and unnecessary deaths but because they have some kind of sinister wish for control....and if they cared they would stop producing coke and promote orange juice. It doesn't really hang together as a support for an anti vax stance. The business of producing coke and the worldwide pandemic are really quite separate things

I am speaking about my own government.
If they cared, they would ban Coca Cola and promote orange juice instead of silent lunches.
This is science. Doctors on tv have been saying that. They have been inviting people to go out and get some sunshine because the only thing combating a virus is your immune system, and being shut down in solitude for two years eating stuff from cans is no good.

...it just doesn't hang together. So I think she's in effect saying 'I don't agree with vaccines or restrictions because there's cola and so the government don't care and so why should I have the vaccine'. To me I see no logic connection there.

 

[Olga Super Star]

Well that's because people without symptoms can spread Covid.

And there's nothing we can do about it.
Considering that 99.3% of people don't have symptoms, you had better focus on the little percentage who fall ill than on the majority who doesn't.

Is it sane to impose restrictions for years on that 99% of healthy population to protect that 1% who might get damaged?

You say the government should be treating ill people, they are trying to prevent illness with these measures how can that be under any question whatsoever!?

People keep falling ill.
I know people with 3 shots who got covid twice.

Since serious illness may be prevented in most people but contagion may not, what's the point in stopping me from getting onto a train? A vaccinated person may have covid as much as I have.
If you are vaccinated, you risk less. Mine being or not being doesn't make any difference to you.

And anyway in my country about 92% of people is vaccinated. And they are the only one who can move around. Yet covid is surging. Vaccines don't stop contagion and after 6 months their protection falls (that's what they say on the media anyway).

Someone is talking about having a 4th shot, but the WHO (world health organization) said it's not really wise to disturb your immune system every 6 months.

Anyway I have not the least contributed to the spreading, I have been living like a monk until now. But I don't intend to go on like this, because my mind is suffering.

 

[Olga Super Star]

People have a choice whether to drink Cola. They have to buy it to drink it. They did not have a choice not to get Covid so these things are in no way comparable.

The poorer you are the more likely it is you drink this kind of stuff and you end up at Mac Donald's as it's much cheaper than organic healthy food.
Food is also being addicted with sugar and that creates dependency. It's like a drug.

Anyway it was just an example to point out that the government isn't so much after our well being.. They would have so many occasions to show that they care about our well being. They only care about power and GDP.

 

[Olga Super Star]

Well no, the reason the virus is in retreat is due to the vaccine.

Vaccine or not, you need a good immune system to combat any virus. And sunshine plays an important role in that.

There are people who live below earth and don't get any sunshine at all. It's a crime against humanity to ban their going out. Sun and air are a human right. Sorry for those who fall ill, I might well be one of those, but it's a risk I am ready to take, and could not ask anyone to avoid sunshine for months just to protect me more. If I feel I need protection, I will take care of it myself with a proper mask, with avoiding people and so on. Why should I be expecting others not to go around? If I want to feel safe I will stay home, which is precisely what I have done these two years. But seeing other people going around hasn't disturbed me in the least.

 

[Olga Super Star]

So I think she's in effect saying 'I don't agree with vaccines or restrictions because there's cola and so the government don't care and so why should I have the vaccine'. To me I see no logic connection there.

Why should I have the vaccine considering that several people I know have been damaged by it and others, despite not being damaged, have had covid twice despite being vaccinated?

Many females had their menstrual period going crazy after vaccination. To me that's a big sign that something is not working properly.

Anyway I look at data.
If I were 80, and had 3 or more health issues, I would greatly be at risk and probably go for it.
If vaccines had proved useful in preventing spreading the virus, I might decide to risk a side effect to protect the community.
At the time being the only reason to get a covid vaccine for me would be to travel to the United States but I would get it just to move around, not believing it would improve my health.

I don't know where you live but here you have to sign a paper when you choose to get the vaccine, stating that you perfectly know you may risk side effects, even dangerous ones, and that you are willing to risk them. And at the moment I am not, since I work from home and basically don't meet anyone I am little at risk.

 

[Liselle]

One of the biggest is obesity and why is obesity suddenly such a wide spread problem? It wasn't a problem at all when I was a kid but now a huge proportion of the population is over weight, why?

It doesn't help that since you and I were kids we've gone through both Neptune and Pluto in Sagittarius.



Here are a couple of articles I think are interesting about the 1918 flu pandemic and how it became endemic.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/09/01/1918-flu-pandemic-end/

(written Sept. 3, 2020)

Excerpts:

Descendants of the 1918 H1N1 virus make up the influenza viruses we’re fighting today.

Experts say there’s this natural progression where a virus often — but not always — becomes less lethal as time wears on. It’s in the best interest of the virus for it to spread before killing the host.

“The natural order of an influenza virus is to change,” Barry told The Post. “It seems most likely that it simply mutated in the direction of other influenza viruses, which is considerably milder.”

“We are living in a pandemic era that began around 1918,” Taubenberger wrote with Fauci and Morens back in 2009 for the New England Journal of Medicine. “Ever since 1918, this tenacious virus has drawn on a bag of evolutionary tricks to survive.”

[from Sept. 2020] The novel coronavirus is not moving on the same time frame as the 1918 influenza, Greene told The Post. Everything is longer with the novel coronavirus — the symptoms, the sickness and even the long-term complications. Doctors are concerned covid-19 can lead to lasting cardiovascular complications.

---

Pandemic: What It Is and What It Means for You

A pandemic is an epidemic that reaches worldwide. The World Health Organization has specific criteria for when an epidemic becomes a pandemic.

www.healthline.com

(written December 11, 2021)

Excerpts:

The 1918 influenza strain never disappeared, rather it continued to mutate and a version of it continues to circulate to this day.

Within a few years, the influenza strain behind the 1918 pandemic became less life threatening.

Dr. Keith Armitage, a professor of medicine in the division of infectious diseases at Case Western Reserve University, says this is likely due to a combination of herd immunity and the virus mutating to produce a less severe illness.

“If you think about the way viruses behave, biologically, their reason for living is to replicate and spread, and there’s really no advantage for the virus to kill the host,” said Armitage.

What a virus wants to do is infect a host and be contagious so it can infect another host and it can continue to spread.

As part of this process, respiratory viruses often mutate and become less virulent and therefore less of a serious health issue.

 

[my_key]

I know people with 3 shots who got covid twice.

That is not at all surprising. Again a topic of recent scientific survey and analysis.

The vaccines that have been developed work on the spikes of the virus. (Don'y ask me how as I haven't a clue).This gives a certain level of protection but not complete and works mainly on reducing the severity of the virus. You are not immune to catching it. The spikes though are not the biggest beastie in the pond. Most of the virulence in covid emanates from the genetic codes held inside the cell walls of of the virus. These cells are not impacted in any way by the types of vaccines that have been developed to date. They look to have helped and have done so through only addressing the lesser of two evils; to coin a phrase.

The best immunity comes from actually having contracted the virus. Then our bodies immune system is able to counter both the affects of the spikes and the affects contained within the nuclear cells of the virus.

Omicron is so transmittable (similar level of infectiousness to measles - i.e spreads like wildfire) that it is more than likely that most people by now have come into contact with it and therefore have had opportunity to build a level of natural immunity to both the spikes and nuclear cells. This is the herd immunity that has been talked about in Liselle's post #58.

With respect to the mutations. That is a dance that humans and the virus have to will play out. So far though science has found evidence that suggests that if you have contracted Covid from any of the different strains then you will carry an immunity to all the other so far developed mutations. How the virus mutates in the future will be anyone's guess they are tricky varmints. But it is in their best interests not to kill off all the potential hosts.

 

[moss elk]

Why should I have the vaccine considering that several people I know have been damaged by it and others, despite not being damaged, have had covid twice despite being vaccinated?

So that you don't die from the virus.

Most of the deaths here are now people who did not receive the vaccine.
(Think about that)
Most medications have side effects.
You can get sick still, but likely won't die.

Isn't that motivation enough?

It almost killed me in Dec 2019.
It attacked my throat, brain stem, and lungs. Lost all sense of taste for 4 days.
Called a relative to let them know I might be dying.
Bedridden for 15 days.
10 more days of weakness after that.

But of course, it is entirely your decision to make, and your life to .....
gamble with.

I say gamble because you see the vaccine as a gamble, while most people who have seen enough evidence see not getting vacc'd is the real gamble.