...life can be translucent

Menu

Your Experiences with Unchanging Castings, Hexagram 17

Trojina

Moderator
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
22,633
Reaction score
1,962
I don't seem to have any actual examples of this and the one I do have doesn't seem very applicable. I'll give it anyway.

I had joined a regional committee for a national organisation just as it reached the height of internal crisis. I hadn't quite known the full import of that when i joined. It was in virtual civil war whereby national chairs had sacked each other and the one who members had not voted in took leadership. Members of our committee were not in agreement in how to continue. Other regional commitees had resigned en masse, our local chair wanted to do the same. Some wanted mass resignation some didn't. I asked if I should continue in my role on the committee and got 17 unchanging.

It's funny that as I write I see now how 17 was applicable. The regional chairman who had worked so long and hard for us all wished for mass resignation of our committee. I felt strongly supportive of him and followed him out. I didn't have to think about it it was a clear inner following. I'd been able to see what had been happening behind the scenes politically I could see he was the 'good man' to follow.


In terms of pairs Lise once wrote of 17/18



Make your road correct

17 - follow the right things and time.
18 - fix what is not right




For myself I am often quite aware of the sense of devotion with 17. Until I had written my example above I had not even realised it did come into play in that situation too without me being fully aware of it. I think there is an inner knowing with 17, to find the way to follow doesn't take alot of weighing of pros and cons it's already there.


And FWIW Wing says of 17 unchanging

"When Adapting occurs in a static form, it implies, without question, that no growth or progess can take place until the demands of the time are met. No situation can become favourable now, until you are part of it. The nature of the time suggests that you cannot rule a situation until you first serve it. Do not struggle. Relax and adapt"



Any more experiences with 17 uc to share ? I'm wondering what 17uc looks like in a really practical question about drains or something ?
 

hilary

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 8, 1970
Messages
16,574
Reaction score
2,007
No drains, sorry.

I can offer you...

Advice for creating a daily spiritual practice

A reading for the week when I started a new voluntary role, and also spent a lot of time doing what was clearly needed and right in the moment but not what I'd planned - including spending a day in bed with a bug. (Most unusual for me.)

And a hypothetical - 'what would it be like to live in Lincolnshire?' if we moved there - when in the end we didn't move anywhere.

Your Wing quote applies very elegantly to the second two - 'no growth or progress until the demands of the time are met'.But there's more to the spiritual practice one, I think. Beautiful answer.
 

Trojina

Moderator
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
22,633
Reaction score
1,962
including spending a day in bed with a bug.

this sentence immediately gave me the vision of you in bed with a very large ladybird :rofl:
 

precision grace

visitor
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
1,121
Reaction score
20
I have just drawn 17uc for a question about the future of a friendship and in the archives found someone's comment which I think describes my situation perfectly, and hopefully others like it:

by edge
My feeling about 17, especially in this context, is that its about learning how to 'be' with another person in a real way. Just because you have feelings or an intuitive understanding of the other, doesn't mean you know how to make it work. That takes time and noticing how one thing affects the other. So it feels like its about awareness and feedback and acting upon what you begin to understand.
 

Trojina

Moderator
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
22,633
Reaction score
1,962
I feel like inventing all kinds of question scenarios and attempting to apply the unchanging casts to them


now what you quoted Edge as saying ;

by edge
My feeling about 17, especially in this context, is that its about learning how to 'be' with another person in a real way. Just because you have feelings or an intuitive understanding of the other, doesn't mean you know how to make it work. That takes time and noticing how one thing affects the other. So it feels like its about awareness and feedback and acting upon what you begin to understand.

well I wouldn't argue with that....but can we take the nub of that...or anything so far said about 17uc and apply it to non relationship questions. Supposing one cast hex 17 uc about

a) as advice on approach to making more money ?

b) advice on how to get along with flatmates ?

c) advice on approach and attitude to creating a garden from a rough overgrown space ?

d) asking for prediction on "will he like this gift I bought ?

e) should I buy those boots ?


This is a rough draft of a GCSE exam (british exam grade) in 'Yi Jing Studies'...well they have this for astrological studies, (diplomas that is not GCSEs)

and then there's the multiple choice section :D




Yes it's only a matter of time before it's on the national curriculum so I thought I'd make a start in devising questions.....of course no one would agree on how to mark the answers.., :cool:
 
Last edited:

precision grace

visitor
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
1,121
Reaction score
20
fab :D

Could it also be possible that 17uc does not come up for those kinds of questions because it is not appropriate for them? I've noticed that when I do Hex search sometimes majority of questions would be about non-relationship issues which tends to surprise me because I always expect 90% of all questions to be about relationship issues. However, there are certain hex combos (and don't ask me which please!) that deffinitely yield almost exclusively non-relationship related previous questions/answers in the archive search.

Also, these are about Experiences with uc hexagrams, so we can't make stuff up, it has to have happened already, no? Empirical evidence and that.
 

Trojina

Moderator
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
22,633
Reaction score
1,962


Could it also be possible that 17uc does not come up for those kinds of questions because it is not appropriate for them? I've noticed that when I do Hex search sometimes majority of questions would be about non-relationship issues which tends to surprise me because I always expect 90% of all questions to be about relationship issues. However, there are certain hex combos (and don't ask me which please!) that deffinitely yield almost exclusively non-relationship related previous questions/answers in the archive search.


Well I think 17 can and does come up for these kinds of questions....doesn't it. ....but you may be right 17 seems to come up less for practical issues...but collecting data on this would be pretty hard. I mean answers from the archives only represent a tiny portion of answers cast in the world...I've always fancied the job of Yi researcher, going door to door, collecting answers at each house.......:rofl:



Also, these are about Experiences with uc hexagrams, so we can't make stuff up, it has to have happened already, no? Empirical evidence and that.


Yes but answers confound me most when they appear so far out of their 'realm' or at least they used to. So I thought it would be helpful to imagine how unchanging casts might hypothetically apply to both mundane and emotional/ spiritual questions. If I am asking about 'which garage' for instance hex 15 as an answer for a choice seems far easier to apply than hex 17 or hex 61. But yes, of course questions in life come with a context, are multi dimensional, whereas made up questions don't, are pretty flat pack so to speak. Maybe will do that GCSE Yi on another thread,


Eventually, in many years time anyway, I trust that someone will have explained here how 17uc answered their question about their blocked toilet :D ( I'm not seeing these examples as hard 'evidence' as such because one might say even our experience is 'made up' , it's not solid, we apply the meanings ....it's more just a pool of experience.... )

It is interesting that you note you haven't seen 17 much, in the archives, for the kinds of made up questions I listed above.
 

precision grace

visitor
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
1,121
Reaction score
20
hehe, you are really determined on this probabilistic view, arencha? OK, so I reckon 17uc for a toilet blockage would pretty much mean "Have a look again, are you sure it's blocked?" because if it were really blocked you'd need some advice on how to deal with it so there would be at least one changing line.
 

Trojina

Moderator
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
22,633
Reaction score
1,962
Congratulations PG :claps: your City and Guilds Level 1 certificate in Yi studies is on it's way to you.

Make sure you frame it and hang it in the lavatory.

Hmm well I think it's been said that with the unchanging cast it helps to pay special attention to the the Image

For 17 from Hilary's book that is :

At the centre of the lake is thunder: Following.
A noble one at nightfall
Goes inside for renewal and rest.


In spring the dragon flies over the fields and brings rain, but over winter he sleeps at the bottom of the lake. As the dragon and the noble one know, energy is stored up below the level of conscious activity, and so to connect with it you need to go inside and sleep. Instead of obsessively pursuing your desires, stop and rest in accordance with the season.


So what I might do is call the landlord then relax
 

rosada

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
8,654
Reaction score
1,692
I think Trojan's original example of 17 unchanging at the beginning of this thread where she got the hexagram as guidance to resign her position in loyalty to the leader who was resigning, is significant in view of Wilhelm's translation that "at nightfall the superior man goes indoors for rest and recuperation." Although one might assume "following" could equally mean following a leader into battle or following him into retreat it occurs to me that it goes without saying a soldier ought to follow a leader into battle but to follow a leader into retreat (or to go "indoors at nightfall" when you are tired) goes so contrary to what we might be thinking we ought to do - like struggle on no matter how tired or how stacked against us the odds - that there has to be a separate hexagram to underscore that yes, there are times when one should just give it a rest - no blame.

So I'm hypothesizing that 17. Following unchanging means follow the signs that are saying don't do more.
 
Last edited:

andrea

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Jan 13, 1971
Messages
368
Reaction score
35
Just to add to the list: I just asked for a "progress report" -- I wanted a sense of how I was handling my relationship. (Yes, the long-distance one with a rocky first year, described in various posts some time ago.) I got 17 unchanging. Reasonably clear and apropos under the circumstances, I thought.

Sorry I couldn't contribute something about plumbing or some such :p, but I guess this lends some support to PG's point, doesn't it.
 

Trojina

Moderator
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
22,633
Reaction score
1,962
Oh there will be a blocked lavatory cast of 17uc sooner or later....you mark my words...
 

Juliah

visitor
Joined
May 31, 2014
Messages
340
Reaction score
7
How should 17UC be interpreted if the question was about the right time to do something? Has this time come?

I would have added to the thread, but I still hesitate about what was implied.
 

moss elk

visitor
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
3,036
Reaction score
685
I have a friend who stays up too late for his own good more often than not.
Resultingly, he has low energy in the daytime and "has to" take naps in the afternoon (often the nap turns into a four hour snooze and he misses out on doing things he wants to do: work/play)

He asked about how to improve his life and energy.
He got 17 unchanging and I laughed so hard I almost fell off the couch,
Because I've teased him about this for years.
 

Trojina

Moderator
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
22,633
Reaction score
1,962
How should 17UC be interpreted if the question was about the right time to do something? Has this time come?

.

Perhaps when it feels naturally right. 17uc here suggests to me the right time to do something is when it feels naturally right or in accordance with the flow of inner and outer conditions. Like how do we know when to go to bed ? Well generally when it's dark and late and we feel tired. We follow quite naturally. (well usually.....I have taken to browsing the internet on my phone in bed....and then my mind follows the next interesting link....nevertheless the pull of natural conditions eventually has me irresistibly following to slumber.
 

Trojina

Moderator
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
22,633
Reaction score
1,962
Copied from 18 uc thread I wrote there


18 can be seen as a 'curse' of a kind, something that comes back to haunt us, pulling us back into the swampy 'can of worms'. 17uc as it's counterpart/opposite might be a prayer or a wish. It recently occurred to me when someone spoke of their concern for a friend, praying for them and getting 17uc, that a prayer was in a sense the opposite of a curse.

17 uc for prayer just felt right to me although I can't back it up too closely with the text at the moment. I just got the feel of how it was the inverse of the idea of curse in 18. 17uc as the act of praying, an act that seems to flow into the future, steadily following a pathway for the highest wish or outcome for someone. Possibly a whimsical example but I thought I'd throw it in.
 

Trojina

Moderator
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
22,633
Reaction score
1,962
Oh I checked out Stevef/ the Beggar Poet's offering on 17 here

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?21542-The-Beggar-Poet-s-Hexagram-17-Following

I make no attempt to hide my pleasure
that the road I am travelling
is leading where my heart would
if it were free to wander

That's kind of like a prayer can be at times. Not always a prayer for something, just a prayer. Some kinds of prayers can be like a road the heart would wander if it were free to wander I think. If you know what I mean.
 

susieq777

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
Messages
120
Reaction score
31
Doing housework

No blocked toilets here unfortunately, though my question was about that particularly mundane aspect of life, doing housework. Although really I guess it's more about the psychological rather than practical as my question was, 'Why do I only feel comfortable doing housework alone?' When I think about it, I've felt this way for my whole adult life and I noticed that I was doing it again earlier, thinking when my partner goes back to work next week I'll get cracking on some extremely overdue wrangling of the dust bunnies and the piles of stuff and the bathroom grime.

I was wondering if it's because I feel like I'm living in his house, just like I felt I was always living in other people's houses that weren't mine. Maybe if i owned my own house I'd feel different. Maybe it's some deep seated shame thing or something. I do have a horribly highly sensitive paranoia about being watched when I do things. I once quit a clay sculpting class after two lessons because I couldn't handle the exposure of working at the same table as six other people. I wonder if it stems from my childhood where I felt I couldn't do anything without my father telling me off. I don't know.

But the most obvious answer to me is it's a stamina issue - the superior man going inside to rest. My stamina is not so great. Perhaps it's simply that I need to be alone so I can tune properly into myself to know when my body is telling me enough is enough. That's the most logical idea to me, though it doesn’t really quite fit into the tone of 17 to me. Any thoughts?
 
Last edited:

Trojina

Moderator
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
22,633
Reaction score
1,962
What an interesting question. Don't most people do housework alone though ? I mean it's not a social activity and even if your partner/housemate is doing it too they will be doing different tasks. Like you wouldn't both be vacuuming at the same time for example.

Without Yi on reading your post my first thought was that yes this is something to do alone because housework isn't just housework. It looks like housework but it has deeper layers. I read once that in doing housework you are actually reconnecting with your own space. You touch things to dust them, you pick them up, you move things, you reorganise and you make a new order. This person said it was a kind of reconnection with your space and hence your inner space also. I think this is true and I also think it is why it is something to do alone just as meditation or bathing is something to do alone (well sometimes a bath is fun for 2 ;)) So I think I agree with your own take here :

But the most obvious answer to me is it's a stamina issue - the superior man going inside to rest. My stamina is not so great. Perhaps it's simply that I need to be alone so I can tune properly into myself to know when my body is telling me enough is enough. That's the most logical idea to me, though it doesn’t really quite fit into the tone of 17 to me. Any thoughts?

I think this is about following your inclination and it seems to be following in a desirable direction. It's fine to want to do this alone and I think the answer shows this is not due to any kind of neurosis on your part, you are following a natural urge to withdraw to reconnect with your space and your own inner space too. I don't like housework but I do feel really good when I've done it, I usually feel mentally clearer. Also, a bit like driving it seems to give me chance to think in a different kind of way. When you are doing housework you are making multi tiny decisions about what belongs where in your space and in your life. That is fundamentally necessarily a solitary pursuit. I notice if I ever go into someone's house and it's really dirty and untidy the person is also kind of out of touch with where they are, more scatter brained etc .

So I think I see the 17, following your own inner guidance on needing the space to yourself to reconnect with the things all around you. I notice when doing housework there's also a mental journey of what you've done. Odd things are found in odd places, it's like travelling through your own domestic geography, a voyage of discovery, inner as well as outer.
 

Trojina

Moderator
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
22,633
Reaction score
1,962
.....meantime I'm still waiting for a plumber to show up at Clarity to give us his experience of drains and unchanging hexagrams...

....one day, one day there will be 'The Plumber's Guide to the I Ching'....
 

Yasmin

visitor
Joined
Jan 7, 2013
Messages
263
Reaction score
79
I cast 17UC about an unresolved matter today and did a search on my past experiences with 17UC. I have had it many times. Every time, it meant "take a breather, wait for things to flow". This is difficult advice for me, I am such a do-er!

In particular, I cast it twice about a flat I fell in love with, and I finally bought after bidding for it 3 times over a period of 9 months, quite the roller coaster. The first time I bid for it, I asked "would it be a good investment?" 17UC made no sense to me at the time. I suppose in hindsight, it meant "take a break, and see what happens". Then after the second time, I asked "what about finding a place I love in this area?" And got 17UC again. I took it as "rest and relax, until something comes up that makes your heart sing". In the end, against all odds, the sale fell through, I bid a third time and bought it. In both these cases, 17UC said "relax,let things unfold naturally, wait and see" and it turned out t be auspicious.

I also cast it after asking if I would be able to resolve a tax problem before the deadline. I was under a lot of stress because I was extremely busy with work at the time the issue came up, and I had to leave it to professionals. 17UC advised to relax, let them do their job, let the process unfold naturally. it turned out for the best. So in that case the outcome was also auspicious.

But I also cast it after a very promising first date, wondering if it would go any further. I had every intention of leaving the next step up to my date when I cast 17UC, so I took it as "wait and see if he follows through, or what happens". And it fizzled out - the gentleman travelled too much between 3 continents and simply was not available to engage in any kind of relationship. I wish we had stayed in touch as friends, but I was not heartbroken.

So what to make of 17UC? It seems t have come up for me at times when I felt a bit powerless over a situation, and the IC was advising me to relax and allow things to flow. I still think it is rather "auspicious", in the sense that there is a gentleness of natural flow about it, and it has often had a desirable outcome. But It doesn't necessarily promise a given outcome. More that If I let things unfold naturally, I will be comfortable with the outcome, whatever it is. The advice to me is "relax, breathe, follow the flow, events will take you to a place of knowing, and it will be OK". But in my experience, it has always been about allowing the flow, not trying to force anything.
 
Last edited:

Trojina

Moderator
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
22,633
Reaction score
1,962
there is a gentleness of natural flow about it.

I agree. I always associate 17 with the quality of gentleness and ease. Which is not to say things always flow how you want them but they pass through your life easily, you're on a kind of ride like at a fair ground and so not so much in control hence having to 'flow with it'.
 

Yasmin

visitor
Joined
Jan 7, 2013
Messages
263
Reaction score
79
I really do seem to cast 17UC often! I just cast it about a health issue: for some inexplicable reason, I have developed a buzzing in my ears. A check up shows nothing wrong with me, it could be a predisposition to inner ear problems brought on by stress or lack of vitamin D or whatever. Anyway, nothing lethal, but very annoying.

So I asked: what to do about the noise in my head? And I meant it physically and figuratively as well. And got 17UC. Hah! rest, recuperate, and follow the flow, let it unfold naturally. Typical IC, telling me to relax and let go when all I want is to DO something!

So that's my 17UC reminder of the month "Stop being such a DOER, just BE."
 

Trojina

Moderator
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
22,633
Reaction score
1,962
If it's any consolation I had what sounded like the beating of wings against my eardrum intermittently for a few weeks. It went away by itself as it has done before. I didn't ask Yi about it but if I had done 17uc would have been the perfect answer. Let it do it's thing, do what it needs to do, allow it. Well I didn't have much choice. Yours sounds a different sort of ear thing though. Mine felt a bit like that thing when you get a nerve flickering in your eyelid for a few days. No known cause for it, it just happens. The butterfly flapping it's wings in my ear seems to have stopped after a few weeks. Luckily it was not continuous anyway. I hope this clears up as easily for you. The cast suggests it will and that maybe you need to aim to follow your body rhythms more, resting, eating and relaxing when you need to (as much as possible) not when your schedule dictates. I also wonder if it may be connected to hormones in some obscure way, so many things are.
 

Yasmin

visitor
Joined
Jan 7, 2013
Messages
263
Reaction score
79
Trojina, I must have missed your reply. I often miss comments to my posts...not assiduous enough! I had not considered hormones... My ears are still buzzing, it's been nearly 9months! But it doesn't bother me that much. In hindsight, not sure what 17UC was suggesting- maybe "live with it"?.

But I do cast 17UC regularly, so will keep reporting on this thread:) Today I cast it about a long standing situation with a developer who built a structure exceeding his permit, which blocks my day-light. I have tried all sorts of appeals, but although my case is strong, there is some sort of high level corruption involved, and now even the lawyer is getting discouraged. But unexpected help seems to be coming in from friends, and I asked if this would shift the situation, I got 17UC. Hah! And I'm nursing a cold at the moment.

Given my own previous experiences, I am taking it yet again as "let things flow, let them take the lead, see what happens. If there is anything you need to do, it will become obvious at the right time. For now the priority is to rest and recuperate from the fluish bug".

I'm starting to really like 17UC, it's so relaxing! Like the Yi's personal blessing to go take a nap :)
 
Last edited:

galatea11

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Apr 12, 2014
Messages
230
Reaction score
49
Greetings,

Last night I wanted to take a relaxing shower before bed but plan backfired when tub failed to drain properly. With overdrawn bank account and unpaid bills in mind I decided to go to bed and just deal with the matter (and possibly a plumber) in the morning. Upon waking today I found a nearly empty bottle of Drano in cupboard, poured remaining contents into tub.

As is my usual habit I then meditated and asked the I Ching for daily guidance, receiving 17UC in response. When I found this thread I almost laughed out loud at the numerous plumbing references. Happy to report that the small amount of Drano (administered before I received 17UC) unclogged my drain and tub is now working perfectly.

Thank you for a great resource, Trojina. Whenever I receive unchanging castings I always look for the pertinent "Your Experiences with Unchanging Castings" thread.
 

Trojina

Moderator
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
22,633
Reaction score
1,962
Brilliant ! A plumbing example of 17 ! Love it !
 

steve

visitor
Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
1,721
Reaction score
68
Hi

Just my two cents , I asked once "how to be successful" in a business related question. One of Rosada's comments earlier in the thread rang home. There is a certain persistence in hexagram 17 unchanging. I like the idea of not forcing issues as well or an easy flow.

You hear many successful people say do what you love and the money will come later. For me there is a persistence not like hexagram 32 Unchanging that is being solidly consistent. As mentioned its more gentle or more like a silent guide.

Elvis had that song " Follow That Dream"

Steve
 

ginnie

visitor
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Messages
4,342
Reaction score
140
I had heard it is good to alkalize the body for good health, and so on the advice of an alternative health newsletter I started drinking 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda stirred into water in the morning. I asked the I Ching: What may I expect from continuing this new regimen? I got 17uc.

Well, almost from the start I experienced abdominal discomfort and constipation with this regimen. I interpreted the 17uc as meaning "follow along," so I persisted despite the discomfort. Yet the discomfort became quite bad, and today (8/14/18) I really have to abandon this regimen. My understanding of hexagram 17uc was incorrect. It does not say "follow along." It seems more to be saying "give it a break; relax."

I very much wanted to follow the advice of the writer of the alternative health newsletter. Sometimes at the beginning of a new regimen there can be discomfort. But this has persisted for a month now, and it is time for me to listen more to my body and less to published advice.

Thank you, Trojina, for all the work you have done to shine some light on these unchanging hexagrams!
 

Yasmin

visitor
Joined
Jan 7, 2013
Messages
263
Reaction score
79
17UC still pops up for me regularly. I keep getting it in situations where I feel anxious, powerless, frustrated, even scared, and I am at a loss what to DO about it.
17UC says to follow movement with joy or movement with ease or flowing with the Tao of the times.
What it does not say is to force or pursue an issue aggressively, or persist in a direction that is unresponsive or uncomfortable. So when I get it in an uncomfortable situation, the counter-intuitive advice is to go take a nap, step back, take a breather from this overwhelming problem, until the time is right to start moving forward again. And eventually either the issue vanishes, or the environment changes, or a solution appears. It is rarely how I would have anticipated, but it is gentle, and it turns out OK.
And I am writing this as much to share as for my own future benefit, because I will probably return to this thread next time 17UC comes up, and I will have forgotten my own insights!
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top