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Your Experiences with Unchanging Castings-Hexagram 44

Liselle

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(Or not. 44 seems much more like Do Not Mess With Me :demon: )

But then along comes ChingChing, with an example of what seems to be the (mostly) positive, galvanizing side of 44 :bows:.
 

Liselle

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one needs to consider carefully what this 'coupling' will bring you and if you can easily opt out of the train of possible obligations it might engender.

44uc pithy phrase - "Be careful"?

Hexagram 10 also says to be careful, but 44 seems to be danger or intensity you'll encounter all at once, whereas 10 seems more like danger that's lurking around you, which you need to sort of sidestep. 44 seems more like you either have to get away from it altogether, or just "couple" with it and get it over with. Maybe you can co-exist with 10 on a long-term basis if you take care to keep the peace and not anger it? 44 is more extreme, with less room for a middle-ground response?

Looking at the I Ching Worksheet, hex 10 isn't any "hexagram of context" to 44, so maybe this isn't a sensible comparison.

(Well, it turns out that in the other direction, hex 44 is hex 10's "Telos," whatever that is. You see it if you check the "Nuclear Story" box.)
 
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Trojina

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was about to said "shhhh don't call her.. " ... and the phone rung

any quesses ?

:duh:

It's the woman who keeps calling you to talk about what 'his' text messages meant.
 

Trojina

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44uc pithy phrase - "Be careful"?

Hexagram 10 also says to be careful, but 44 seems to be danger or intensity you'll encounter all at once, whereas 10 seems more like danger that's lurking around you, which you need to sort of sidestep. 44 seems more like you either have to get away from it altogether, or just "couple" with it and get it over with. Maybe you can co-exist with 10 on a long-term basis if you take care to keep the peace and not anger it? 44 is more extreme, with less room for a middle-ground response?

Looking at the I Ching Worksheet, hex 10 isn't any "hexagram of context" to 44, so maybe this isn't a sensible comparison.

(Well, it turns out that in the other direction, hex 44 is hex 10's "Telos," whatever that is. You see it if you check the "Nuclear Story" box.)

Yes I think 'be careful' is part of the message....well it has to be, this can derail you if you let it. I have now received 44uc twice for someone who, in hindsight, I should have kept at far more distance and I am now in a far less extreme version of Maria's situation. The best advice is not to marry it just like Yi stresses. Marrying in such cases might be like 'yes you are now my friend so that mean as you are part of my life to the extent you can just call me up whatever time of day it is etc etc etc

(Telos I think means 'spirit' I could be wrong but it is the upper nuclear hexagram. There is the lower nuclear hex, middle nuclear hex and upper. Hilary wrote all about it in CC but not here as far as I can see....also I must have got that wrong because hex 10 can't be upper nuclear....I give up....someone from CC can correct me) ETA yes it can be 10....I was doing it from 43 instead of 44.....)
 

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CC makes an interesting point when she talks about transformation. There is something there for us in such encounters, maybe this is why its not easy to shun those people easily hence the pattern or repeated 44- maybe just a thought that had yesterday.

If my memory serves me well, I had 44 as relating hex when a client made an appropriate move towards me. Tried to find that reading but was under my previous account and couldn't trace it but I recall pondering who was the powerful woman in that case. There is another 44 experience that i have no recollection at all but I recall feeling and reporting here the feeling that someone drags you out of your comfort zone - and if i can generalize that , drags you to new territories, in the sense that you "see" things you had never be aware of.

It requires a laborious effort to stay away, was thinking yesterday and what came in mind was what a friend said once , during a writing seminar on automatic writing. We had to do an exercise that has its roots on surrealistic movement and maybe it was a tool of A. Breton's. We produced a set of words that paired them and produced others and then pair them again till we had one word. That word supposed to highlight the issue concerned us the current time, which fell to be dead on!! Then, using some of those words we had to write a story without thinking in just one hour. One woman reported that when she gave birth to her child was a tough situation and the labor pain very very intense. She said that she felt the same.

Agree with the "invasion" idea. In some cases is very true. My current experience support it fully. One part of me doesn't feel good for sharing things about her but if can be of some help for anyone facing such a situation maybe worth it.

One of my dear friends showed a similar behavior and he had to deal with a 44 woman- it took him a while to understand how overwhelming was for me to talk again and again for that matter - I had become a part of a weird triangle and friend at one point started to talk about future actions using the words we ( he and I) ; "what WE are going to say" , "what WE are going to do".... I don't compare him with the current woman because with my male friend still could talk about other things and he really care about my news or could listen about my issues too ( With this Ex-friend rarely happened). I gave him the time to thing about it because its obvious that he could hear about how overwhelm I felt. After some time he came to say to me that I was right , I was clear in my thoughts but he couldn't hear it. His openness was moving and he told me that I was the first person that he could talk about his emotions- With his other friends was "the tough guy" and talking to me helped him talk to some others too. We are still very good and close friends.

During the past day's call, I saw clear the high degree of dissociation in her behavior- she lives in another world and no matter how sad makes me see her suffering I have to let her live it. Or.. using her pov that she has a good time, I won't try to take away her amusement.

One question 44 and its attraction beg for asking is " why I'm attracted" , and maybe the answer is CC comment ; there is a transformation. I'm not trying to generalize 44; we all know that all situations are not the same but maybe that question is helpful to ask ourselves.
 

anemos

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By the time I post this it may have changed of course and no one will know what I'm talking about....but at this particular moment the uc threads have invaded Exploring Divination

:eek:


When we to get to 45uc thread presumably we can expect to see the uc threads to gather together in clusters.

Yes I like the idea they have a mind of their own and are forming themselves to the pattern of the hexagram we are 'on to'....like a flock of starlings or something

I'ld dare to predict that maybe during 45 we will retreat a bit. I agree that there is a priming or a focus on specific experiences ; relive them in some ways might influences us.

both 43 and 44 are so powerful : they need to speak, they need to short out things . 45 may be a time of rest. we need tor a while to go to our temple, assimilate what we have learn, gather our self and in 46 off we go again. ;)
 

chingching

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I love typos!

If my memory serves me well, I had 44 as relating hex when a client made an appropriate move towards me

"along came chinching" the first yijing x rated film? Just jokies

On a serious note, i associate 44uc with the phrase "force majeur"
 

anemos

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:rolleyes:

[video=youtube;yy5THitqPBw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy5THitqPBw[/video]
 

Trojina

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I was speaking to someone of my 44uc scenario which is slightly similar to Maria's and they suggested I look for the 'hook' the other has in me. In 44 it seems something holds you there even though you don't want it. The metaphor of course is sexual desire, temptation but it can be any kind of hook.

For me in thinking about why it's hard to say 'no' to the person part of it is that they hook me in by flattery, harder to say 'no' when they say nice things... and also some guilt, some feeling that I should help them more. If I don't help then that is not comfortable for my own self perception or what I think I owe them and so on and so on. I mean if you can't say 'no' when you want to something is hooking into a hook in you.

Mostly if someone makes an unreasonable demand you cannot afford you can manage to say no. In my scenario, well I can say 'no' but I'm not saying it effectively, they aren't hearing, because I'm trying not to be hurtful :brickwall: So I find I am snagged up....and I have had 44uc twice for this snag !

I figure I could be clearer if I was totally clear about what the hook is, what 'snags' me to make me think I have an obligation where actually I don't. I think the person is manipulating me a bit and I am a bit of a sucker for it because they trigger guilt buttons/hooks in me to do with not refusing someone's needs etc

Anyway the point I'm making is if you feel snagged up like someone is holding you somewhere and you get 44uc it might help to think about what is that little piece of temptation or reward that keeps you there relating to them rather than walking away.

As Maria said here


One question 44 and its attraction beg for asking is " why I'm attracted" , and maybe the answer is CC comment ; there is a transformation. I'm not trying to generalize 44; we all know that all situations are not the same but maybe that question is helpful to ask ourselves.

Maybe in some cases there is transformation. I love that chingching got sexual confidence out of her encounter as that is a big thing to leave someone with. However sometimes the hook that keeps us there might be just ways we feel we should be, as a good friend and so on For example payoff's/temptations can be where someone makes you feel special by saying such things as 'only you understand me' and so on....so that can hook in to our wish to be needed, flatter and so on making it harder to refuse their demands. If someone says 'I have no one else to turn to...' etc etc that might hook in to our need to be a helpful person and so on.

15 might be a good antidote for the 44 snag I wonder if it is in the 'hexagrams of context ' table


Oh and er yes I think one needs to be careful of manipulation with 44.....watch those hooks !
 
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Liselle

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I was speaking to someone of my 44uc scenario which is slightly similar to Maria's and they suggested I look for the 'hook' the other has in me. In 44 it seems something holds you there even though you don't want it. The metaphor of course is sexual desire, temptation but it can be any kind of hook.

There could be many things involved, but I'm wondering if karma should be one consideration with hex 44.

I got 44uc at least once about my dealings with someone. After I became a little familiar with astrology, it turned out there was a nodal connection between me and the other person. (The nodes of the moon in astrology are indications of karma; I think there are others as well?)

I could see karma as feeling like something that "hooks" you, seemingly against your will, your better judgement, or your usual behavior. Once the karmic lesson works itself out, you'll probably disengage from the person, but you'll be transformed in some way by it.

Of course, most times we're unaware that this is what's going on, and so we're bewildered or resentful. (Actually we can be bewildered or resentful even when we do understand what's going on, harumph.)
 
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Trojina

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Well that is interesting that the 44 person had strong nodal connections with you. Yes I think there is something in that idea of karma and 44. It would tie in very well with what others have said about the pair 43/44. Can't recall which thread it was, this or 43, where Knot. expanding on Hilary's idea suggested what we eject in 43 comes back from the underside so to speak to meet us in 44. I have myself seen strong nodal connections with someone I'd see as a 44 influence.


I could see karma as feeling like something that "hooks" you, seemingly against your will, your better judgement, or your usual behavior. Once the karmic lesson works itself out, you'll probably disengage from the person, but you'll be transformed in some way by it

Well it's interesting you should say this since the person I had these two 44s about has actually crystallised for me, really made clear to me, that I don't want to have that kind of dynamic/way of working with someone again. I feel in some way as if it were the 'end of an era' for me. I am hoping the temptation of a particular sucker button has been disconnected.....hehe but let's not tempt fate !



BTW I was watching a trashy movie last night where the whole thing was based on the idea that there are 'moments of impact' in life that determine your whole life and who you are. The film was centred around a car accident that changed everything, and then a family reunion that changed everything and so on.. It was just my ears pricked up when I heard those words 'moments of impact', made me think of 44. The actor was saying those particular moments are the ones we replay in our head over and over again. Most days of our lives blur into one but there are these key pivotal days where everything changes.


Going back to 44 and karma for a moment...that would also make sense of the idea of not grabbing and marrying. Karma is bigger than us and is from the past...so presumably we only need to couple with the karmic factor not hold on to it and build our lives around it
 

anemos

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I got 44 un the other day when I asked a very open Question about my engagement in drawing and particularly the new medium I'm learning - charcoal. Before asking yi, and sharing some thoughts with a friend , told them that I try to tame charcoal, and I'm using that word quite literally, because that medium has a certain boldness. I had to chuckle getting 44. So appropriate answer!

It's qualities are really enchanting and actually i feel short of "stoned" when using it. There is that sensitive and bold combination, and i need to use its qualities and "control" them, so I can succesfully draw. Sometimes, the hex44 woman, is not an enemy, or something we have to restrain ourselves and avoid her. It's our partner, and although we might feel 'small'... or its 'attraction' is overwhelming , we still can make a good couple.

Charcoal is more powerful than I am currently, yet it's me who has to tame it. Yesterday, I was placed in a stop that the lighting was not very good and being quite inexperienced with the medium, couldn't put in paper what I was seen, couldn't tame it and then became frustrated and was doing mistake after mistake....had to stop , take a deep breath and remind myself that it's me in charge , not the charcoal stick:rolleyes:.

That woman has the capacity to wind you up but we can use her winds to make your declarations. How we relate it's what's important, imo ; not the object.
 

Liselle

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Charcoal is more powerful than I am currently, yet it's me who has to tame it. ....had to stop , take a deep breath and remind myself that it's me in charge , not the charcoal stick:rolleyes:.

That woman has the capacity to wind you up but we can use her winds to make your declarations. How we relate it's what's important, imo ; not the object.

I love this example, Anemos. It's not about what we stereotypically associate with 44, but the 44 message is clear.

I wonder if the "unchanging" part is one of those where Yi is giving us the hexagram as sort of a leading, open-ended statement or question? As in, it's just saying "Power..." and then, as you said, we must stop, take a deep breath, and think, okay, I've been warned, now what is best for me to do? Try to tame it? Just flow with it and let it transform me, whatever that might entail? Or get right away from it?
 

anemos

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I think hex 44 asks good questions and probably we are forced to asked them ,with the help of that woman who might be a catalyst. ...we have to voice those questions in a clear way so you can really hear them and then move on.

Perhaps the prince and the woman are the very same person inside us
 
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sooo

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Hi Maria, here's how I see it.

Creative heaven is above, powerful wind woman is below. I see you as that woman who has the audacity to go out to meet the creative heaven.

What is restrained is the wild force of wind, which would have no form or direction without the will or mandate of heaven, lent to you. It would just be a bunch of scribbles and random marks on paper, without taming the wind. It is the Prince or representation of heaven, your own creativity, that tames the wild wind.

"The beginning of all things lies still in the beyond in the form of ideas that have yet to become real. But the Creative furthermore has power to lend form to these archetypes of ideas." - Wilhelm 1

This is not something which came to you without your own will. You obtained the necessary tools and drive to go out to meet the Creative on your terms. Heaven requires a vessel to work through, a proverbial woman to plant his creative seed into, or there would have been no drawing, no form, no heir, no prince to proclaim to the four quarters of heaven... only a potential.
 

anemos

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yes to all ! Was practicing yesterday and was thinking something similar.Audacity makes a lot of sense. Its like dancing with a whirlwind and try not to get carried away yet carry on... or.. like you have swallow that whirlwind and need to make it come out tamed, no amorphous.... there is a fish in the tank , as you said.

Whirlwind.jpg



I really like your "audacity" word choice. It connects many aspects of hex 44. I had to look it up because i didn't knew its meaning and when I read what means scattered ideas came together.

A bit of Off topic , but , since I got 44 the Tao te Ching is in my mind. There is a "boldness" emerges from the way it is written. So simple words yet they stir powerful images. I admire the writer for that talent and i think its now more clear from were I'm influenced.

mesmeric painting that of h44 :)
 

Liselle

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I really like your "audacity" word choice.

Agreed. "Audacity" fits some 44 examples of my own, too. My own, someone else's...

It turns out (according to a Google info box, the dictionary for someone too lazy to even click on a search result :rolleyes:) that audacity can have two meanings, one "good" and one "bad":

1. the willingness to take bold risks.
"her audacity came in handy during our most recent emergency"
synonyms: boldness, daring, fearlessness, intrepidity, bravery, courage, heroism, pluck, grit;

2. rude or disrespectful behavior; impudence.
"she had the audacity to pick up the receiver and ask me to hang up"
synonyms: impudence, impertinence, insolence, presumption, cheek, bad manners, effrontery, nerve, gall, defiance, temerity;

I was thinking of it more in the definition 2 way, but I can see definition 1 fitting 44, too.

Edited: Might hexagram 34 fit definition 1, too? (I never know what to do when this happens...now I'm stewing over the difference between 34 and 44, despite also thinking they're obviously nothing alike. Sigh.)
 
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sooo

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Stunning image! Love it for a 44 image, particularly since we're specifically speaking of creating graphic images.

This reminds me, I've been meaning to download the Audacity recording program. Maybe stir up a bit of windstorm myself. :stir:
 

Liselle

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Edited: Might hexagram 34 fit definition 1, too? (I never know what to do when this happens...now I'm stewing over the difference between 34 and 44, despite also thinking they're obviously nothing alike. Sigh.)

I could be falling into a logic trap. Just because A is like B, and B is like C, doesn't mean A is entirely like C. *pats self on head*

[Edited] Also, dictionary definitions of words which might help illustrate the I Ching are not the I Ching itself. *pats head again* *goes off to do errands*
 
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sooo

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I could be falling into a logic trap. Just because A is like B, and B is like C, doesn't mean A is entirely like C. *pats self on head*

[Edited] Also, dictionary definitions of words which might help illustrate the I Ching are not the I Ching itself. *pats head again* *goes off to do errands*

I've always looked to trigrams to help sort out distinctions of active forces and relationships within a hexagram.

Where 44 is constructed of heaven above, wind below, 34 is constructed of thunder above and heaven below. Both have a certain irreverence toward heaven, and so in that sense both wind (eldest daughter) and thunder (eldest son) regard heaven with a certain disregard for formality and proper order. Both break ranks with the family structure, where heaven holds the high position and is not approached so boldly. But then, look at 11, where heaven places himself beneath his wife, earth. One could say that Heaven is bigger than what the Judeo-Christian idea of God or heaven would be, and whether we can admit it or not, we westerners are influenced by that. Certainly Wilhelm was, and to some degree, even Confucianism has been. But I do not think the more pragmatic view is that of a jealous God, but of a benevolent and creative heaven. In such an order even death is an act of kind benevolence, because it is the natural order. So while marrying this audacious woman would benefit neither heaven nor the eldest daughter, lending creative power to her may. And while the eldest son, thunder, may get a bit carried away with his power sometimes, heaven will allow it, if the proper rituals are performed and power is not excessive to the point of abuse. The superior man does not work through power, and this is a lesson heaven's first son must learn.

So, 44 and 34 do share similar dynamics with the Heaven, but they are not really the same.
 

anemos

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Stunning image! Love it for a 44 image, particularly since we're specifically speaking of creating graphic images.

This reminds me, I've been meaning to download the Audacity recording program. Maybe stir up a bit of windstorm myself. :stir:

Loved it too. It's just the trigram but it has that boldness.

Happy stirring. May the 9 muses be with you :)
 

anemos

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Lisa, for you :flirt:
thunder.jpg



Both 44 and 34 are heaven and his firstborns
 

Liselle

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Both 44 and 34 are heaven and his firstborns

Thank you. You have found quite the impressive pictures today.

And thank you both for the explanation. 34 and 44 are similar in that they both contain heaven and a child, but different because heaven is in a different place and it's a different child. Interesting.

Both have a certain irreverence toward heaven

Do you get the irreverence because irrerverence is in the nature of both thunder and wind? Whereas other trigrams with heaven wouldn't be irreverent?

I can see how thunder and wind could be irreverent, more easily than, say, lake. I'd only describe lake that way if it overflowed its banks or something.
 
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sooo

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Do you get the irreverence because irrerverence is in the nature of both thunder and wind? Whereas other trigrams with heaven wouldn't be irreverent?

I can see how thunder and wind could be irreverent more easily than, say, lake. I'd only describe lake that way if it overflowed its banks or something.

Interesting question. Seems funny to fish a quote from a Spiderman movie (my archetypal hero), where his wise old uncle reminds Peter (Spiderman), "with great power comes great responsibility."

The children in 44 and 34 are not only children, they are the first, the eldest, the senior children, who are revered in that and most societies. And, they are not only the first son and daughter of heaven, but of heaven and earth, though earth is absent from those hexagrams. So there is also that dynamic within the entire family (Wilhelm discusses this dynamic order in his 37 commentaries), where even the youngest daughter reveres her mother, as in 19, where the mother oversees her, earth overlooks lake.

For me, trigrams animate every hexagram, and this can be especially seen in those which include heaven and/or earth. They tell stories, living stories. Like 14, for example, where the second or middle daughter radiates above heaven. Great Assets, as though the father proudly holds her above him to illuminate heaven. But this really belongs in the 37 thread, where each trigram is as a complete person along with all their aspects and moods, depending upon which other trigram they are paired and relate with and which position, above or below, they occupy.
 

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