What LiSe said, especially with the looking everywhere. One useful concept I found in Carol Anthony: you might see the great person in other people if you look a little harder, even when it's not immediately obvious.

(By the way - off-topic, should be posting this in 'Moderation' - though Doug shows up as 'banned', it's actually just a temporary suspension; maybe he'd like to come back and talk Yi.)

Hilary said:

One useful concept I found in Carol Anthony: you might see the great person in other people if you look a little harder, even when it's not immediately obvious.

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Absolutely. Anthony also talks about giving other people space in order for their 'higher nature' to emerge, but I find that most of her insights are directed at our own perception, rather than others. Terms such as 'inferior man,' and 'clamoring inferiors' are used to indicate the negative aspects of ego, and imply the concept of an alternative, higher nature - often referred to, by Anthony, as 'The Sage.'

bradford said:

I think I have to take exception to interpretations that put "the great man" within us, as some kind of higher self that is already possessed of some higher truth. We have enough of that going on and it really gets in the way of our growth. I think the Yi is saying to not be so narcissistic and full of yourself for a change and go look for somebody in the real world who is better than you are. And if you can't find one of those then you really have problems.

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Just curious, Brad...who is your Great Man? At Clarity,at least, you are pretty much the Great Man...the pickings gotta be slim when a Great Man goes looking for a Great Man Does it really have to be someone living in the real world?

bamboo said:

Does it really have to be someone living in the real world?

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Does it even have to be a "someone"? Oh, and let's not confuse Junzi with Daren?

sparhawk said:

Does it even have to be a "someone"? Oh, and let's not confuse Junzi with Daren?

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That question popped into my mind! Must be "someone" or could be 'something" also ?

Sparhawk, could you kindly elaborate your thoughts. Interested to hear more

sparhawk said:

Does it even have to be a "someone"? Oh, and let's not confuse Junzi with Daren?

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Within academia there’s always someone’s shoulders to stand on. No shortage of “great persons” there to see. I suppose even a modern cowpoke could learn a thing or two from John Wayne, or a proper riding school.

However, as someone remote, I sometimes wish there was a great one, besides the Yi, living here to see. Sure, I can find them in a book, in a movie, in a Yi reading, but only because the principle of greatness lives within. So why not just go to him there, directly? As a lifelong student of human nature, it’s unlikely anyone will tell me a principle I haven’t heard before. All external greatness will do is reflect back and affirm what one already knows. He is like the rooster who wakes you up. I suppose one could hang a big resonating gong, and hit it hard once in awhile to wake up the great principle in man. It sure beats getting cane thwacked by the Zen master.

sooo said:

He is like the rooster who wakes you up.

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Preface to Walden:

I do not propose to write an ode to dejection, but to brag as lustily as Chanticleer in the morning, standing on his roost, if only to wake my neighbors up.

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Welcome, Anemos,

anemos said:

That question popped into my mind! Must be "someone" or could be 'something" also ?

Sparhawk, could you kindly elaborate your thoughts. Interested to hear more

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Why not? Not much to elaborate, at least not without getting into "weirdness"...

What makes us, you and I and the next one over, a "someone," as opposed to a "something," is the recognition in the other of a similar self-awareness as the one we enjoy ourselves. In very simple terms, tangible self-awareness appears to be the defining line between a "he/she" and an "it." It is the reason we formally address other animals as "it/things" and our fellow homo-sapiens as "he/she/someone." Alas, that distinction, for me at least, is more of a chemistry/physics accident than a bona fide, tangible reality. In the end, being reductionists, we are nothing but a cluster of atoms held together, with the curious characteristic that that mixture of particles function in such a way that raises above mere physicality (i.e. chemical/physical processes) and become metaphysical. And I am using the word in the sense of "meta-" meaning "beyond-, after-, post-" what is "physical." So, in one hand we are a clump of atoms, a "something," --not different in that sense from a mountain in the distance or the trash can in the kitchen-- and on the other a "meta-something" in the form of our thoughts and awareness of self and the environment. However, in the same way we address our favorite pet as "he/she" because we recognize in them an awareness of "us" in their dependence on our love and care and project our empathy unto them, we could, in theory, empathize in the same way with anything. And I mean "anything." The only thing that is stopping us from doing that is the lack of feedback from those other "things." But who's to say that our inability to receive feedback from those other "things" negates their existence? The funny thing is that we do it all the time, nevertheless, in the form of beliefs and religion; we just don't think of them as empathizing on things but it is just what it is. We can conceptualize God, spirits and deities and our empathy imbues them with an intangible awareness. We can conceptualize the power of inanimate objects, in the form of charms, talismans and relics and imbue in them a function that, prima facie, does not appear to be there.

Language is artificial. It is a creation of our minds to help it make sense of our environment and compartmentalize it. The distinction between "he/she" and "it" is as artificial as anything else we can conceptualize.

As for the Daren (Great Man), IMHO, it is that which is a stage, or stages, above our own level of awareness and/or reasoning capacity and we are able to discern such a distinction between "he/she/it" and ourselves. So, when you find yourself below such a being/object, either by mere chance or by looking for it, look up...

Thank you Sparhawk for your response and your welcome .

Enjoyed reading your thoughst and if you ask me, I don’t see any shade of weirdness

The example had in mind was about a very serious matter concered me. Yi said “see the great man” but I couldn’t figured out who that could be. bewildered and confused and looking the smoke above my head , warning me that soon I would burn my mind, lol, decide to concentrate to something else. So I opened a box I keep , bill, invoices, payments etc to organize them. I have a bad habit and I note things on envelopes, so before through them away I check every inch of it. Well, in one of them I read “we think we are thinking but we merely rearrange our prejudices”. Ouch !!!

I consider that note on the envelope as the great man I should look for. But I had to "see" it also and not left it unnoticed.

thanks again

sparhawk said:

look up...

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Using my poetic licence, LOL, that “look up” of yours reminded me of Einstein’s saying “ we can’t solve a problem from the same level it was created”

anemos said:

Using my poetic licence, LOL, that “look up” of yours reminded me of Einstein’s saying “ we can’t solve a problem from the same level it was created”

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No, we can't...

anemos said:

Using my poetic licence, LOL, that “look up” of yours reminded me of Einstein’s saying “ we can’t solve a problem from the same level it was created”

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That's a quotation that always comes to mind for me with the 'great person', and especially in hexagram 6. The combatants are eyeball-to-eyeball on the same level; the great person adds another perspective, or another dimension.

You make me think, Hilary, whether the way we should see this line depends on the context of the specific hex or line we find it.

I think that's true of a lot of these recurrent phrases - this book does a lot with few words. Brad is very good at picking up on the different nuances from the same words in different places - have you found your way to http://www.hermetica.info yet?

Mista 'pao aka "the Great Man"

The great man of Naskapi Indians

These simple people are hunters who live in isolated family groups , so far from one another that they have not been able to evolve tribal customs or collective religious beliefs and ceremonies . In his lifelong solitude the Naskapi hunter has to rely on his own inner voices and unconscious revelations ; he has no religious teachers who tell him what he should believe, no rituals , festivals, or customs to help him along. In his basic view of life , the soul of man is simply an "inner companion, " whom he calls "my friend" or Mista'peo, meaning "Great Man. "

From "Jung - Man and his symbols"

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I've been loving this thread... so can the great man also be thought of as the greater man. The people who came to mind when reading this thread for me were the ones who would think in terms of the collective in all of their actions... like my friend Bonny who is an elder with a local indigenous community centre who said to me when I asked about decision making in traditional culture that decisions were made by asking how it would affect our grand children's grandchildren... This is a basic sustainability initiative from a culture that has survived 40,000 years.

Another great man that came to mind was my friend and boss at the time Christine from the Business Strategy unit of the college that I was teaching sustainability and landscape design at who would frame most discussions about business decisions for the group in terms of how well all our business decisions aligned with our moral compass... Both personally and the moral compass of the organisation as defined by the strategic plan. Much as the way the Yi aligns us with the greater and the great strategic plan.

By asking of ourselves what is good for the tribe and also what fits our moral compass and aligns our individual need with the greater good.

So maybe our moral compass can be our inner great man that keeps us aligned with the greater man, the collective - the greater tribe of humanity and that the external great men we meet along the way are the great ones who are already doing this and remind us of this all the time... Keeping us all aligned for the good of the great.

Maybe that being great is fundamentally an issue of alignment of self and being true to the self and true to the tribe and that the higher self is the connection of the self with all... I swear these cells have got to stop thinkin they are just cells and start acting more like an organism ... and maybe that will help us all make a great man together.

Graham

PS There are many great men... and most of them are women IME

I like the visual and the feelings emerged from the words " greater man"

I see "the great man" as any person or source which can bring some wisdom to bear on the issue at hand.

Sometimes it is someone who does it full time- a therapist, a spiritual guide, an arbitrator (hex 6) etc....

Sometimes it can be someone who may not be "great" or superiorly wise in general, but simply has something useful to say on this issue. Maybe a friend who has been through this situation before, and has figured out something I haven't

Sometimes it can be the author of a book whose words transform our understanding of the situation...

I think its about being on the lookout for a source of wisdom, and the person or thing becomes obvious.

yasmin said:

I see "the great man" as any person or source which can bring some wisdom to bear on the issue at hand.

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If you wanted to focus on the bringing of wisdom you would be looking for the term sheng ren 聖人, the Chinese for sage or sagely person. Great man is da ren 大人 and has a broader meaning, whose wisdom is more likely to be called savvy, authority, maturity, competence or experience. Da ren is more secular.

da ren - you da Man!

Just a quick note here. No matter about translations, no matter about concepts of greatness, the "great man" can refer to absolutely anything. But ultimately, the great man is our own higher self. It is who we contact when we meditate, it is the inner wisdom within each of us, that can only be reached if our "rope goes deep enough and the bucket doesn't leak." The deeper we go into "The Well," the more we understand the true meaning of all lines and judgments.

Gene

for your info

大da人ren nowadays is the term of adult.
In ancient times, da ren was commonly used as a respectful form of address for a high-ranking official or a person who has power of influencing other’s future (for instance, a thief calls the policeman who catches him).
Da ren in the Odes appears in the form of “da ren divines”. I don’t know how long ago before the Odes da ren starts to be used but I know that the political leader was also the religious leader in the times of Shang.

Therefore to my understanding, Da ren in Yi literally means a high ranking person who has influential power on others.

Regards
Tuck
www.iching123.com

The Big Dude is by my side,
trustworthy, true as rain,
to make sure that my life and luck
don't run down the drain.

Actually, da ren is da chick;
without her his motor won't tick.
OMG! is love,
where it finds you or you find it.

Until recently, I always thought of the Great Man as an ideal, as an archetype. The archetypal wise man who leads by authority of his merits, his knowledge & spiritual achievements. Basically an embodiment of higher qualities, an ideal to aspire for. But I didn't think of it as a real person.

I am excited to report that recently I have for the first time heard somebody speak who fits the description!

Seriously, I'm a critical person who is naturally suspicious and not easily impressed. But after sitting down and really giving this a thorough listen, I must say, I am deeply impressed by the interviews and works of Prashant Trivedi. Not sure if it's ok to post links here, but there are some interviews on youtube which can be easily found through the search function there. I was particularly moved by an interview in which he gave an in-depth explanation of the law of Karma and shared some enlightening insights into the Bhagavad Gita. (In fact I listened to it 3x in a row because he addressed so many problems with these concepts! Things just kept 'clicking' into place one after the other!)

Thought this might be of use and interest to some in this community. After many disappointments, it is the most rare treasure to come across someone in the spiritual field who is genuine, sincere, and who really walks the talk.