Hi Val:

I don't know!!!

I do believe in psychic energy.
I believe everything you wrote throughout this thread - and other things I've read that you said were dreams that happened.

It's enough to give you goosebumps and more....

That being said..For awhile I was working on developing my abilities as I know I'm intuitive - but it started to scare me - and pull me out of my life.

I went to New Mexico a few times and then did a 180 and took a corporate job on Wall Street because what I got (maybe psychically) was that I was here on earth to learn to deal with day to day ordinary life. And...I truly believe in the "demon lover" - both as a seduction and real men. In fact, I've manifested many of them in the flesh!

I'm telling you all this because my experience may help you answer your questions - because I sure don't have any answers.

I found, over time with this stuff that I started to see myself as becoming grandiose - that I had information from the universe. That fit too snuggly into my psychological issues. First, it made me feel special - which is bad for me.
Then, it put me in a realm of the "magical thinking, demon lover" mode - and that pulls me away from my life - and that is very bad for me.

I personally, need to learn to deal better with reality and real people. I check out all my "intuitive" knowledge before I act on big things with someone I trust and I'm learning to trust my "here and now" senses and my judgement based on what I see.

The I Ching has become more validation for me (most of the time) and that is a good thing for me when I get overwhelmed. It brings me back to earth. But....I have to really be careful of the psychic stuff.

And...for you, it may not be the same. I don't know what you do in life or what your purpose is -so I think it's different for everyone.

If I tell you to walk through a wall - you won't be able to do it, right? You'll bang your head.
That's truth and that's real. We create our own reality only through our interpretation of real things - the same real things as everyone else.

What I will say though - the question you asked about people making their points and leaving out information - that I believe is manipulation and lies. A fact is a fact.
And, Val, maybe I'm not sure what you're asking about people leaving things out.

--------------
Rosalie

Hi wolverine...

I feel so stupid! I didn't know until today that a wolverine is a weasel. And that discovery was right after I was connecting 35.4 to what you're doing to yourself and why I recognize it.

At any rate, below is an article I think you might find interesting... hopefully helpful. I looked it up after seeing some very beautifully worded (you are a very good writer indeed) yet obviously self-deceptive stuff you've posted (I see through the form to the content). http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/vanderkolk/. I believe what you're doing is revictimizing yourself and terribly self-destructive, therefore I think those two sections of the article will probably be of particular interest.

There's a couple of reasons I went looking for an article about repeating trauma and self-destruction. The first one, and you'll remember I was concerned when you first came to the forum wanting so desperately for the Yi to tell you that you had a future with this married man... to the point you wanted 23.6 to mean the relationship with him was going to blossom) is that you described not only a married man but a terribly destructive man. I suspected you were more naive than anything else then. Now I know I was wrong.

You came back with this story... you're here very self-destructively screaming "I want to be raped" because that's exactly what this kind of sexual encounter IS. It is sexual exploitation and nothing more and nothing less. And sexual exploitation IS rape! I don't believe your eyes are wide open at all. I believe the part of you that wants to be self-destructive is keeping mule blinders on the part of you that could protect yourself.

Further, just about everything you said to Peace was self-deceptive (mule blinders in place), but I just want to point out the two on which I based my decision to go looking for an article about compulsively repeating trauma.

I'm drawn to men with power. THIS MAN IS A WIMP! He has no personal power whatsoever... he's a predator. Predators are wimps. They prey on weak and vulnerable people. People in therapy are there because they feel weak and vulnerable (whether they admit it or not). And some part of you knows this, but doesn't want the rest of you to because that part wants to repeat the pattern... do you think repeating it may get you that approval you feel you never got?

I'm also drawn to honesty, having grown up in an environment containing lots of secrets and lies. Everything you've said about this man's approach smacks of dishonesty. A more honest statement would be "I'm drawn to his dishonesty to repeat the pattern of dishonesty I grew up with."

The thing about the one who exposes you in 35.4... in most cases that person can see through you because of the "takes one to know one" syndrome. You may fool everyone else here. You may food yourself. You don't fool me. Having been sexually exploited, I have a pretty good idea of how devastating the damage is going to be for you. And the pain of being sexually exploited... it's indescribable. I thought it was going to kill me. I wanted to kill myself sometimes to escape the horrid feelings I felt. I have NO idea why I care, but I hate to see you hurt, and if you don't get a grip now, you're going to be terribly hurt.

Love,

Val

Val

Absolutely.

For me it does not matter that it is with a strong woman who is seeking development for training.

It destroys the therapeutic relationship completely.

To me it indicates that this person is confused enough to betray his committment as a therapist and may well do so again with a more vulnerable patient.

In addition I wonder whether one can expect an authentic relationship from someone who begins it by betraying a trust.

--Kevin

Kevin...

HELP! I'm in tears right now because I know what she doesn't know yet... and I never want her or ANY woman for the rest of time to learn it the way I did. I've pretty much accepted I'm going to have these scars for life. I was reminded that I can't even sit in a dentist chair without crying in profound senseless fear while I was typing that last post when my dentist office called to confirm my teeth cleaning appointment Monday morning. (You as a psych can explain to those who don't know about sexual exploitation and dental phobia.)

YES YES YES This is SUCH a betrayal of trust.... and betrayal of trust is so very painful.

The pity is he knows... she doesn't. And she's the one who is going to suffer for it.

You know I thought of you a lot when I thought of posting what I really feel is going on here. I thought about emailing you because I'm not a psychologist. I know from experience (and I DO learn from experience), not clinical study. And I was afraid of how I would come across because, as we all know, I AM more direct than most people. So I consulted the Yi. They answered 46.2. So I just did it.

This whole self-destructive act is so disturbing to witness, that I really feel like withdrawing from this forum forever. She's not the first "woman in the danger zone" to post here... she probably won't be the last. It's very difficult to stand by helplessly and watch.

Love,

Val

Kevin...

One more thing. I don't see her as strong at all. I see her as a very frightened vulnerable little child in there wanting to appear strong (as her best defense)... and very stubbornly clinging to denial (again an important defense). And, of course, you know as well as I that denial is an experiential thing, not intellectual. She doesn't know that... she will if she ever comes out of it... OUCH!

When my boss was finessing me, I stubbornly clung to denial... I believed his crap... I thought he was attracted to me... I HAD to believe that for survival. And then I went through five months of horrible PTSD before I finally said OUCH... and it was an OUCH I was sure could be heard for miles and miles.

Love,

Val

I just thought of something to add to that last post Kevin.

Men used to describe me as a strong woman. Some said they were frightened by my strength. It was all an illusion I did with mirrors. After I went through my catharsis in Virginia, I consulted the Yi about how I was feeling about things... about men and my relationship to them. And I got the line that said "You can give up your belligerent way of acting now." I sighed contently. I hadn't been strong at all... and the difference was huge.

Love,

Val

Hi Val

I cannot describe the anger I feel toward therapists who betray their trust. People who abuse their power... predators who are mmost often confused and damaged.

I read your posts and was tearfull too.

I have been in the postition of trying to help betrayed analysands / patients... The betrayal is beyond description. The surprised pain the other experiences... lost for words here.

If someone says they are strong... Who am I to say otherwise...

Hugs Val

Kevin

Val-

I feel torn here. I'm sorry that you are upset and that you're feeling helpless and considering leaving the forum.

I'm feeling slightly cross that I'm feeling sorry for you about this.

I feel grateful and touched that you care enough to be looking into this and to have found another interesting, helpful, thought provoking article.

I feel really strongly that you're getting into some intensive projection identification...

I am not you.
The therapist is not anyone you have known.
I am not being abused, harassed or traumatised.

My past self destructive relationship with the poet does indeed sound like there was compulsive trauma repetition going on. The article is revealing about this. I often wonder and try unravel my emotional states...especially my tendency to cut off...

Interestingly, last night I dreamed that Seeker (whose posts I often identify with) posted a long post saying that really I was a frightened child...she quoted various journal and scientific references. One was a quote asking "what are people for?" and she said I was interested in post modern theory. In the dream I experienced her post as a sort of defence and understanding of me that I was grateful for.

Regarding the therapeutic relationship; question about it what you will...a key, salving thing for me is his honesty (compulsive honesty). I can't get into a back and forth "yes he is", "no he isn't with you" on that. I know, you know that when your life has made it really, really important to spot honesty, lying and self deception, you do.

Sorry, maybe I can't convince you of this. My coping mechanisms are good...and have led me to this particular therapeutic relationship. This quote's from the article you linked to;

"Prior to unearthing the traumatic roots of current behavior, people need to gain reasonable control over the longstanding secondary defenses that were originally elaborated to defend against being overwhelmed by traumatic material such as alcohol and drug abuse and violence against self or others. The trauma can only be worked through after a secure bond is established with another person. The presence of an attachment figure provides people with the security necessary to explore their life experiences and to interrupt the inner or social isolation that keeps people stuck in repetitive patterns. Both the etiology and the cure of trauma-related psychological disturbance depend fundamentally on security of interpersonal attachments. Once the traumatic experiences have been located in time and place, a person can start making distinctions between current life stresses and past trauma and decrease the impact of the trauma on present experience."


Val- I think I needed to have you say what you've said about my self deception and I thank you....but you're talking about "witnessing", "watching" and "seeing" my self destruction happen.

But you're not. The sight words are clues.

Whatever you're "picturing", it's your stuff...not mine.

Wolverine and Val:

Just in case the commentarie could be useful

"I will hear everything you will say to me.
I will judge wathever I heard, but I won't judge you.
Everything I find truth from you, I will keep it as tourch to inlight my Way
Everything I don't complete understand from you, I will keep it as a challenge to inlight my Way
Everything I find untruth from you, I will keep it to review the light of my Way.
...
And anyway, I will bless you will be here to speak to me"

Best wishes

Wolverine, I admire you. Your patience, politeness, style... I would have exploded already many posts ago.
I know what you are seeking, because I am seeking the same thing. Finding your own footing. There are probably many ways to find it, but talking about emotions, real emotions, with a man, is a kind of highway. Not abstract emotions, but strong and living ones, here and now.
All depends on the trustworthiness of the man. If you can really trust him, then the common rules do not apply anymore. Trustworthiness overrules everything else.
Of course you have to ask yourself over and over again, if you are not deceiving yourself. Or letting yourself be deceived. But you are the only one who can judge.

LiSe

Hi Val:

I think that Bruce's post a few days back are the wisest because it challenges Wolverine's position in a dignified and respectful way. She is a grownup. She is intelligent - and she is not, as she says, "a Lolita".

It's her life and I admire how much you want her to be spared the pain you were. Hopefully, most of your pain is in the past - and you don't have to relive it now if you don't want or need to - for anyone's benefit. Please take care of yourself.

And I agree...you don't know what you don't know. And if she's in denial, she doesn't know.

As a psychologist I feel I have a responsibilty to do something about therapists who are predators.
How dare he try to work it out with her - whatever his issues are. He should at very least be in supervision. He has no right to discuss his feelings about her if he is out of control - which he definitely is - according to Wolverine's accounting of the incident.

We all have our karma and sometimes a shock has to be being hit over the head with a boulder.

Wolverine - I wish you well. You are entitled to have the space you need to work out whatever you need to do.
This is a request: If you don't want our advice, please don't drag us into it. I feel setup and manipulated into taking you seriously. All your responses are that we don't understand and he's this and that....It's not helpful to you or us. You're no victim because I believe you know what you're doing with him and with us!

Rosalie

People should go back and read Wolverine's first post:

"I'll share this because I think it's a relevant side of 44, though I feel slightly vulnerable in sharing;"



Val, I think if someone is operating unconsciously, yes there will be
problems, but it seems as if Wolverine is aware of her self and what she's doing. And her answer 28.2.3 for the question "what if our therapeutic relationship became sexual?" also seems clear.


For every quote that someone brought up that *seems*, according to everyone's experience of the world, to indicate the guy is manipulating, Wolverine had more background and an explanation which seems to show our assessment was incorrect, and it didn't sound to me as if her thought process was deluded.

Does everyone have to follow the "rules" 100 per cent? Can there not be honest folk out there who don't follow the traditional rules?

Wolverine seems to have thought a lot about what she's saying. Why don't we give her some credit that she knows what she's trying to do, or at least thinks she knows (after all, who knows what they're really doing - most of us don't). Life has risks everywhere.

If her perception of him and everything else she's saying is accurate, if there's an honest exchange, isn't that up to her? A role is just a role, therapist and client, teacher and student, master and slave... they all intermingle eventually.

I think the key is honest exchange.

Wolverine, I admire your openess and honesty in sharing all this. But like LiSe says, it would be wise to keep checking for deception.

Hi Wolverine...

Peace said:

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I feel setup and manipulated into taking you seriously.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I've been pondering that very same possibility. I realize there is the possibility that something other than a disconnection with reality is happening here. I can't imagine that even the most irrational person can continue to argue the logic of a psychological determination made by oodles of oodles of very experienced mental health professionals over many years.

You either have a such a strong need to be right that you will ignore the obvious dangers in order to maintain your position as right.

"Wolverine... there's a mac truck headed for the rock on which you're posturing at 70 mph."

"Even though I'm very very young, I'm here on this rock to impress you with how much smarter I am than all the people with many more years experience than I by using psychological jarg..."

SPLAT

Things you say also point to the possibility you might be insecure about your attractiveness. For one... "My mother denigrated my femininity in order to preserve her sense of her own." Did your mother get more attention than you Wolverine? Maybe these men are real but you've imagined their approaches to you? Maybe you've come onto them and they've rejected you but said enough positive and validating for you to build into evidence of their sexual attraction toward you?

Or maybe it's just a plain ol' narcissistic need for attention and you are simply enjoying manipulating people's feelings and watching their reactions to your "guaranteed 9.8 on the shock scale" statements and lapping up the attention.

I've considered all those possibilities... because something is just not right here, and I could have shut up before. But there's definitely a deception going on here, and it's impossible for me to know for sure if it's self-deception or deception of "all those people out there in forumland who will never know the truth." In spite of the overwhelming circumstantial evidence, it's still possible you are so irrational that you can't see the logic behind "An increasing number of states have criminalized therapist-client sex, some classifying it as a felony" and are, consequently, about to walk off the edge of the cliff.

So I had to try. And I did try. And now I'm done. I have no interest in reading anything else you have to say in this thread, and it appears the previous conversation is long over, so I have no fears of missing anything important here. Consequently, I've added a filter to my email to delete any emails with the title of this thread in the subject line.

Peace...

I'm very excited to resume our discussion about dreams. I'm starting another thread to do so in a day or two or three. In the meantime, I won't be able to read any responses in this thread, so if you have anything to add regarding dreams in the meantime, please post to the thread I started on 44 a few days ago.

Thanks.

Love,

Val

Jesed; wise words.
Lise; Thank you so much for hearing me. I felt like I needed that.

Thanks to all who've rightly warned me to be careful and keep checking that the situation's ok and real.

Re Val's last post;

My self/way of expressing myself/current situation seems to have upset, angered and frustrated her. She's rapidly moved through a spectrum of objectifying me, attacking my integrity, to some extent blaming me for raising upsetting issues for her and finally rejecting whatever I may have to say in future.

That sort of interaction, if replicated in a therapeutic or other real world relationship would be far more damaging to me than the interaction I have with a man who owns his own stuff, when challenged or spontaneously, sees me as a person with my own world and frame of reference and is offering me an open, safe space that will stay there even if things get hard and challenging.

The Clarity forums themselves offer that sort of space and for that I'm glad. This thread is, continues to be, very, very 44 I think.

What Val partly might have felt is missing is the "exploding" that Lise said she would have done posts ago. Words and ideas and setting them down can be a defence against that for me. In fact, they can be seductive and persuasive and a way that I seduce and persuade in turn. That's pleasurable and interesting...but does have the danger of me endlessly deferring real feelings, be they anger or love or whatever.

I'll sit with that over the weekend.

Blessings to all.

In some ways it would be easier not to resurrect this thread. But I have a strong drive towards narrative closure, so I'm going to update it and round it off.

Myself and my therapist continued to sometimes draw towards and draw away from discussions of our feelings of attraction towards each other for a few more months.

That helped me explore how I've related to people generally physically and mentally and realised that physical interaction is particularly charged for me because I've not developed ways of processing it and dealing with the feelings it arouses in the same way I've been able to with mental and verbal interaction.

I managed to dance a slow dance with someone at an event recently which might not sound a big deal for anyone else- but it was for me and I felt like I knew alot more about my own reactions and accepted them.

Having some reciprocal time with my therapist outside of sessions (just meals afterwards sometimes) helped me question how willing I was to consider an unreciprocal sexual relationship with an unequal power balance just because of the security it would offer me. I also began to feel more "present" and more willing to both "see" and "be seen" in my interactions with friends. I began to realise more what being fully present meant.

This somehow seems to have helped in an empowering process in which I told a man (who I've posted about on here a couple of years ago), when he made approaches towards me again that he was narcissistic and selfish and incapable of really seeing me as the person I am.

That then seemed inevitably to lead to me recognising that my best future learning and growing will come in reciprocal relationships where I share experiences and insights and souls with people on an equal footing- and risk myself in doing so. I therefore recently told my therapist that I wanted to have three more sessions with him, then bring our time to an end.

We've both expressed how we're glad we didn't sleep together but that the (real) possibility functioned as a useful catalyst for me to explore why I would have done- and for him to be challenged in how "real" he was willing to be about his feelings toward a client.

I also found this thread useful- in terms of exploring my fears. Then also in standing my ground and staying true to myself even when my integrity was being severely questioned and challenged.

I appreciate that most people wouldn't have had to go through the pocess of considering sleeping with their therapist in order to know it probably wasn't a good idea- but I've learned so much in the process and it feels like I needed to go through it to emerge more strongly aware of my needs and wants.

Just wanted to share.

Blessings

Wolverine

Dear Wolverine,
I am so happy you shared all this. I honor your process. and especially love how you describe knowing what it meant to be more fully present. That I believe is a rare jewel.

I wonder do you mean that your integrity was being questioned here on this discussion board? I never felt that your integrity was questioned or "under fire".....It seemed to me that the integrity of the therapist was being questioned. But that seems water under the bridge now. As a therapeutic process, even one that may have been questionable, it seems to have brought you safely to a shore of new strength and awareness.

I admire your courage and openness in laying it all out here, and how you unflinchingly held your ground, as you say. You have a lot of strength and so much to give.
I wish you the very best.

Micheline

Wolverine-
Thanks for the update.
And glad you got through it all.
This updating doesn't happen often enough,
but it's important to the learning process,
and we're all still spozed to be learning here.

If you read the first post in this achive:
Archive through November 10, 2005
"How to understand the changing lines in hex. 44" - which talks about the 2. and 4. line in 44,
I did a cast today.... and got exactly that cast!
44,2,4 > 53.

In the thread most agreed that 44 was about sexual incounter. And that line 2 and 4 ("fish in the tank") could speak about fertility or if such an encounter was of any value.

The question I asked was:
"How shall I convince my friend that he should not get involved with that woman"

I admit that it was a prejudging question, but the situation is that my very good friend have met a young Thaigirl on his travel and have decided to marry her! Even though he have never spoken to her, as she only talk thai.
To me it is like "buying" a wife. Its not so much a moral issue for me, as I am sure that he would take very good care of her - AND her whole family, as the deal includes that he is going to finance their lives too.
Its more that I think he is spellbound and heading in a wrong direction, where he will wake up all to late, when he finds out that a young girl of course is not interested in an old man like him, - but his money.

So how should I talk to my friend? Tell him that this has been an inspiring encounter (he has only "talked" with her) and that he should leave it like that (line 2: "Fish in the tank. It does not further to entertain guests"). But that if he continues he will find that there is "no fish in the tank. This gives rise to misfortune" (line 4).

P.S.
The day before I DID ask a more global question, I asked Yi what it had to say about his project, and it said: Hex.5 (1,3,5) > 7
( - but I did not like the answer, as it seem to support his project to some degree...)

Hi

First: about the project, is premature; the best thing to do is wait in calm, and with discipline (hex 7)

Second: the way I read it: Is not about no getting involved with her, but getting involved in a RIGHT way (evolving from 44 to 53)

Both 44 and 53 are about relationship.. 44 is a wrong relationhip and 53 is a good one. The diference? 44 is premature, 53 evolve rightly step by step.

So, I would say to him: "I'm not telling you to break up with her; just telling you to built a solid relationship; without precipitation, but evolving step by step."

Best wishes

Nice interpretation, Jesed. Though I have a little different view of 44/right and wrong, as well as the value of fish in the tank.

Frodo, your question: "How shall I convince my friend that he should not get involved with that woman?" is presumptuous, and that also is the nature of 44. A more fitting question might be "What is the best way to approach my friend's interest in this arrangement?" It is possible that the best way is to mind your own business. Then, maybe the best way would be to take him by his collar and shake sense into him. Or perhaps the best way is to sit down with him and encourage him to talk it out with you. But to ask the Yi ?how shall I convince him?? is to presume Yi agrees with your personal attachments.

Fwiw, I did a little online surfing on success ratios of these sort of arrangements, and it seems that they succeed about 80% of the time, long term. That's not only higher than 'common' courtship marriages, but higher than religious groups, even devout Catholic marriages.

Older man/young woman/self-arranged marriages are foreign and seamy concepts to our culture; and yet the success rate of our own marriages fail far more often.

I dunno, but I think if two people make each other happy, there's no other reason or rationale needed.

Wolverine...you rationalization and its explaination are very well put. I personally understand your feeling of being put under scruteny, I accept people and their ability to make assumptions and draw conclusions from presented information. People do those things. How it effects me is on me and I have to deal with it. I was involved with a woman who actually had been in your circumstance, she was not as fortunate, her therapist; a male responded and took an unfair advantage. All the Hex 44's in the world would not have prevented it.
Best wishes for a holesome and active future.

"Older man/young woman/self-arranged marriages are foreign and seamy concepts to our culture; and yet the success rate of our own marriages fail far more often. "

Shades of 28.2...

- Jeff

Hello everybody.
Late reply from me, Im sorry. I read your replies as they came, but havent taken me time before now to answer. Your answers help me to see the situation from different views.
First: I agree totally with you that I presume, Bruce. I usually dont ask questions in this manner. But the day I asked the question, I felt that rephraming the question not being so presumptuous, would be like bending my mind to be "correct". So I thought, what the heck, lets see what comes. And I think that this my honest question gave me the opportunity to get some feedback on my attitude, at least from this forum. Helps me to think of his project from a less presumptuous angle.

I can feel this is true, Jessed: So, I would say to him: "I'm not telling you to break up with her; just telling you to built a solid relationship; without precipitation, but evolving step by step."

Interesting, Bruce, that these marriages has twice as much change to survive than "normal" marriage in the western world (But isnt that because the girl is totally caught in the marriage for economic reasons, her family?s survival depend on her staying with him)

And yes, Jte, 28.2 would be the picture of a good outcome for him.
I hope for this - OR that he will have patience and maybe see that he need someone whith whome he can share his thoughts on a deeper level than a not english speaking young woman.

Bruce: I tried to ask the question you suggested:
"What is the best way to approach my friend's interest in this arrangement?"
I got #49 (no changing lines). (strange... often I know while throwing that this one will be not changing)
I could see it as me having to renew myself, be open to something that I cant in this "skin" that I have to shed.
But how can I know if it is not telling me to transform HIS attitude? #49 is the only hex. that tell us to do something drastic, maybe
"take him by his collar and shake sense into him".

Hi Ftodo

Change YOUR own point of view about the issue, yopur own way to aproach the issue.

(Hard thing to do, isn't?)

Best wishes

Well, Jessed, here I think you expressed yourself with much certainty. It actually blocked me from responding for a while. How can you be so sure. I "feel" though that your interpretation is tending towards the right one. But that comes from knowing me, knowing him.
Looking at the hex.49 itself, it doesnt tell were the "revolution" should take place: in me or towards him. The core hex. of #49 is #44 (the hidden posibility). To go from 49 to 44 line 1,2 and 6 have to change. Line 1 talkes about restraining oneself in the beginning. But line 2 says: "when one?s own day comes, one might create revolution. Starting brings good fortune. No blame,"

A little update: He seems to have come down from his "manic" state, so that I can trust that he does his own conciderations now - which leaves me free from being his assistant critical sense. ;-)