Spiritual hierarchy

[pakua]

Hi Val,

I'm questioning your statement "The greatest thing a person can aspire to... is to love and be loved... "

What about people like Beethoven and Mozart? They left a tremendous legacy, but I'm not sure they personally loved or were loved too much. Did their music come from love?

Or the guy who figured out how to use electricity, he benefitted the world, but is that less important then that he loved someone? Did he do that out of love?

Most any body can love someone - I'm thinking of that movie I am Sam - where the handicapped guy loves his daughter. Probably even Hitler loved Eva (in his own way!)

Love is great and wonderful, but surely there's more to it than that? Maybe you mean love and compassion for the universe....?

 

[cal val]

Pakua...

Have you read "Walden" by Thoreau? If you were to ask him these same questions, his answers would very probably be Yes... all these things you put such a high value on are less valuable than love.

And Pakua... No... I don't maybe mean anything other than I said.

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

PS Pakua...

Btw, the guy who figured out how to harness electricity... discovered the benefits of alternating currents... was Nikola Tesla. Funny but I just went to get some information on him for you, and this is the first thing that caught my attention:

<blockquote>His brother Dane was considered the family genius, and when he died in an accident, his parents were devastated. Nikola felt guilty that their favorite had died, and he had survived. Throughout his life, he drove himself to try to merit his parent's love, but his achievements only made them feel their loss of Dane more keenly.

This resulted in Tesla feeling a lack of confidence in himself and resulted in a form of obsessive-compulsive disorder, that showed up in eccentric behavior later in his life.</blockquote>

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

"Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius." - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

"Between whom there is hearty truth, there is love." - Henry David Thoreau

"To love someone deeply gives you strength. Being loved by someone deeply gives you courage." - Lao Tzu

Love,

Val

 

[martin]

I like what Thoreau said. "hearty truth".
The truth of love. And there is also the love of truth.
Love and truth are the pillars of the temple of the universe. When one of them is missing the roof comes down.

I didn't yet figure out if that temple is a Greek temple Lindsay.

 

[jerryd]

Love in a spiritual sense Val may actually be the motivating sense behind all the pain we see in the world today. Ones love of a self richous belief in my higherarchy is better than yours? This is not a condemnation of Love but just an observation on a theme which is not so easly remedied by humans defination of love and how it is defined and focused. if we speak of love outside the frame work of spitituality and focus it in other areas then we do open Pandoras Box.

I think this is probably why Atlas Shruged. Or at least was contemplating it.(shruging)

 

[lindsay]

Does anyone remember reading anything about love in the I Ching?

 

[candid]

Lindsay,

The only place I've seen the word love used was in the Wilhelm commentaries, where it is used 9 times, plus a couple of other related words like: lover, loving, etc. The most significant use (to me) is in hexagram 1.

"To sublimity, which, as the fundamental principle, embraces all the other attributes, it links love. To the attribute success are linked the mores, which regulate and organize the expressions of love and thereby make them successful."

I think those are pretty significant words. Regulating love is especially interesting. It brings love from a wild force and refines to its most effective use. Mores do not only have social values outside of ourselves, it also is an ordering of influences within.

Love, in the spiritual sense, is typically thought of as unconditional. That is the current popular view anyway. But according to Wilhelm?s use of it (above), it is conditional in that it must be regulated in order to have success. This to me means that according to Wilhelm?s view it could be imprudent, for example, to love your enemies. However, since it is also linked with sublimity it seems that sublimity itself incorporates love.

I can relate personally with the word sublime more than I can with the word love. Sublime is somehow clean, always. Love can be too easily misguided. Love seems to cling more to sublimity than sublimity clings to love, as though love is born of sublimity. Perhaps only when love leaves sublimity does it need to be regulated.

 

[jte]

"Does anyone remember reading anything about love in the I Ching?"

61.5 - Legge's translation - The fifth line, undivided, shows its subject perfectly sincere and linking (others) to him in closest union. There will be no error.

I've often felt Legge's translation of this line (and also of 61.1) to be far superior to Wilhelm's.

Oh, and welcome back, Dharma...



- Jeff

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Jeff-
Love (ai4) is used only once in the Yi,
at 37.5x (the commentary to 37.5)
Brotherly love (ren2) is also used only
once, at 24.2x.

 

[anita]

Dharma,
Great post!

While I admire achievement and work towards it, the true purpose of life is not it. This is not about who achieved what in life. It's about what he realised about his True Self that matters in the end - and this is enlightenment.



Best for your Quest

Anita

 

[lindsay]

Candid, what you have to say about unconditional vs. conditional love is interesting. I've never been a big fan of unconditional anything, but then I have never seen anything in life that didn't come with strings attached. Even my mother would hate me under certain circumstances. So many people talk about stuff that has no reality at all, hot air.

Which brings me to "sublimity." I've always had trouble with this word. How do you understand it? What is sublimity, and why should I care?

 

[candid]

Lindsay,

Hard to say what it is about the word sublimity or sublime that just feels so right to me. It?s colour appears as clear white and pure. It seems neither yang nor yin. Perhaps it?s this quality that transcends duality which makes it so appealing to me. There?s no relational qualification to bring it about, like angels that are neither male nor female and not born of nature but existing as emanations from the divine. It has no beginning or end. It existed before Eden or creation. Perhaps the antithesis of original sin?

I realize this is merely a poetic rendering, but I know no other way to describe what it means to me.

Why should you care? I really don?t know. Maybe it?s before caring.

 

[jerryd]

sublime; a pragmatic way to look at an unborn citrus.

 

[lindsay]

Thanks, Candid. I like your notion of the sublime. It is inspiring to imagine something pure and stable beyond the ten thousand little things, the dance of dwarfish forces, that twist and bend and shape our lives.

I would add one thing. I believe the sublime is beautiful. Actually, I cannot think of anything that has more impact on me than beauty. Art galleries, museums, concert halls, sea and mountains, a beautiful face, words well spoken, an elegant gesture, the nobility of animals, a clear thought, grace in all its forms - these are my sacred objects. Enlightenment bores me, at least the way most people talk about it - but seeing the perfection of ordinary life is a gift beyond compare.

Sorry, Candid, it's not for you to say why I should care about anything. I know better than that, but the fingers are sometimes quicker than the brain.

 

[pakua]

Hi Val,

"Have you read "Walden" by Thoreau? If you were to ask him these same questions, his answers would very probably be Yes... all these things you put such a high value on are less valuable than love. "

When you say "you" did you mean me or are you quoting? I didn't put a high value on anything. I asked a question - billions of people feel joy when they hear Beethooven. Is that less important than whether or not Beethoven himself experienced love? Billions of people have ease and comfort because of Tesla - same question.

"And Pakua... No... I don't maybe mean anything other than I said. "

I think there's a lot behind your statement, that was just my clumsy way of asking you for details, to see where you're coming from.

What kind of love were you talking about, and how does that lead to enlightenment. Lots of people love their families, neighbours, friends, and yet wouldn't hesitate to kill if it served their purpose. Probably you're not talking about personal love, or are you?

 

[jte]

Well, fair enough Brad, but I think we can distinguish between the precise (or *imprecise* ) words used in a line and what that line describes.

The question referred to love in the IC and I think that is one possible meaning of that line. Now that I think of it, I also think love is referred to (indirectly) in 61.3.

So that makes at least two references (subject to interpretation - but hey, the *whole* IC is) in addition to the places Brad mentions where the actual word is used.

Of course, I'm missing the point - in a way the whole book is about love. Loving guidance for those who use it. But I think that's not really the point I set out to address.

If you don't see it, for whatever reason, or chose to interpret differently, hey, it's your life...

My two cents,

- Jeff

 

[dharma]

Hi Val!

I'm as surprised to see me here as you are. It certainly wasn't a planned visit. Needless to say, your enthusiastic greeting is very much appreciated (always a pleasure to bask in it) and your generous dispersion of love is warmly returned. Thank you.

*hug*

 

[dharma]

The thread inspired my own thoughts on the subject to the surface and I typed them out intending to add them to my continually growing collection of writings. Posting them here was certainly not on my agenda, but... when Spirit calls I answer, and so here I am. Still, I do not expect my stay to be long.

Val said it better than I.
Love. To be it.
Yup!

God = the eternal One Life underneath all the forms of life.
Love = the felt presence of that One Life deep within ourself and within all creatures.

In short, Love is a state of Being -it is the presence of God "felt"- NO-thought.

Ego, being a fundamental fabrication of the mind, is as a rule governed by intellectualism. Ego-mind turns all experiences it has into a form of 'knowledge'. The minute we begin discussing the merits of Love, we are back inside our minds producing thought-forms of it, which is not the same as Being it. Exclusivity and conditionality in love are byproducts of our logical analysis of Love. But God is not exclusive nor conditional, therefore, Love is not selective any more than the light of the sun is, shining down on us all equally... unless we ourselves choose to remain in the dark.

Also, methinks it redundant for Yi to talk "about" love since the whole book itself is a major portal that leads us directly to it. Every hexagram and every line is another doorway that invites us to enter into that state of Being.

 

[dharma]

Thank you, Jeff.

I feel the warmth of your love
(ego-mind acknowledging and duly noting it

)
and I offer mine in return.

 

[dharma]

Thank you, Anita.

Agreed!

Enlightenment is fundamentally everyone's true purpose here.
Our abilities and talents are merely vehicles -a means to an end. Indeed, they may bring us worldly achievements and successes, yes, yet our uniquenesses are best used as the means to another end. That of Awakening!

It makes the dream ever.. so.. more.. enjoyable.

Sincerely preferring Being these days, and since all this talk has placed me too firmly inside my thoughts, I must return back into the center of my cave. Nothing left to say at this time but.. Best for your Quest..

 

[cal val]

Anita...

I love your post. Very well said.

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

Dharma said it even better than I did...

<blockquote>In short, Love is a state of Being -it is the presence of God "felt"- NO-thought.</blockquote>
Dharma and many of you know exactly why I know this to be true because you and she watched my experience over several months, and for those of you who are new and were not witnesses, I'll explain in as little detail as possible.

Just before I came to this forum I had surrendered... to what I did not know at the time. I just knew there was a superior intelligence to mine and that I wasn't making the best decisions for myself or feeling all that great about too much. I'd gotten myself into a bit of very scary danger, geographically and otherwise. As to my surrender, I was certain there was no God or spiritual aspect of human nature and that I was surrendering to a collective synaptical energy output warehouse of sorts... seriously... and I came to this forum a devout flaming atheist.

And then the dreams started... and the readings that concurred with the dreams. They showed me to what I had surrendered... and it was indeed very spiritual in nature, and my very firm belief system was shaken and transformed. They taught me lessons about destiny, fate, death, rebirth and karma.

After those initial spiritual lesson "preparatory" dreams, I started having a series of dreams that led me inside myself where I discovered the source of fears I'd long allowed to get in the way of romantic love and the love of a life partner and my own whole complete family. And as I looked at the source, felt the feelings I'd long denied, and was liberated from their dominance, I came out of it all in love with everything and everyone. It became, as Dharma so eloquently said, my state of being... generally. Meaning, of course, I do have my moments... *grin* And hearing Dharma say it so eloquently, I have no doubt she is experiencing the same because it's really one of those you-had-to-be-there kind of things.

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

Pakua...

If it weren't for parents' love for their children, we wouldn't be having this conversation because, without love, parents would have no motivation to feed or protect their children and our species would have vanished hundreds of thousands of years ago. That, in my mind, makes love pretty damned important.

Given a choice between cuddling with your beloved on the bank of a stream listening to the sounds of the water, birds singing, fish splashing, frogs croaking (ie no electricity and no Beethoven) or listening to a CD of Beethoven's Greatest Hits alone not by choice but because you're living your entire life alone and without love... which would you prefer?

I prefer the former.

Further, I supposed you would understand this, I supposed everyone understood it, but one of my workmates, who has been following this thread over my shoulder, pointed out that it seems you don't realize love, whether it be the joy of love or the pain of love, is the greatest source of inspiration there is in the arts. She rattled off a dozen examples in rapid succession that I won't replay here, but my favorite is the love story that motivated Eric Clapton to write "Layla", one of the greatest love songs of all time. As a painter myself and being my most creative when loving and being loved, whether I'm filled with the joy or the pain of love... I have no doubt of this: that, without love, there would be no beauty at all in this world. God's love is the reason we have beauty in nature.

I believe the questions in your last post were sufficiently answered in Dharma's post and my subsequent post, but regarding your last "question," "Probably you're not talking about personal love, or are you?" I have no answer. "Personal love" is your phrase... I have no idea what it means to you... that's your thing. And, with all due respect, I don't really care to know. Love is, and I feel it... that's all. I have no desire to define it, categorize it, fit it into boxes and label them or otherwise intellectualize it. "As Dharma said, Love is a state of Being -it is the presence of God 'felt'- NO-thought." I feel love... not think it.

Love,

Val

 

[dobro p]

Val, allow me to digress from the thread - your story's too interesting to ignore (and if you like, I'll work it all back into the thread later lol). What was the background to the experience you describe? Were you a church-going kid or something?

 

[jte]

"Thank you, Jeff.
I feel the warmth of your love
(ego-mind acknowledging and duly noting it )
and I offer mine in return."

Thanks, Dharma, much appreciated.

I'm not Luis, so I'll leave it at that... ;-)

- Jeff

 

[cal val]

Hiya Dobro...

My religious background: My father was a quietly "angry" atheist. He didn't tell me that though. I figured it out when he was dying. He came from a very religious family, but got angry at God and disowned him when his beloved bride died of tuberculous after they were married only three years and then my brother's accident left him severely brain injured.

He never talked about his beloved first wife or God until he was close to death. We would sit up late at night gabbing, and he would put the television on one of the TV evangelical programs and, without judgment or profession of faith, watch in fascination and tell me to watch, and tell me stories about his first wife. He radiated love when he told them, and I loved him all the more for all I was learning about him and his ability to love. And I only recently learned talking to his cousins while researching my family tree that he actually came from a very religious family.

My mother was his second wife and my biggest influence because my dad would not discuss or think about religion at all while I was growing up. My experience was to hear her continually question the dogma that religion fed. She had the canons of several different religions and would read the "rules" and question them as having any real purpose. She did send me to Sunday school for a brief period and quickly decided she didn't want me fed dogma either.

We had a live-in housekeeper named Big Ruth who was very large and went to Pentecostal tent meetings where she got the spirit, jumped up and danced. Sometimes she would take me along and I didn't really get it, but the music was nice. It would become rather scary for me, though, when Big Ruth would get the spirit on one side of me and the woman on the other side of me would get the spirit and they'd both jump up and dance wildly. I feared I might be crushed in the fervor. They never did crush me, so maybe I got the spirit too and it was keeping them off me... *grin*

When I started asking my own questions about God, my mother encouraged me to explore my own spiritual direction. I did. I was eight years old, believed in God, was a little leary about Jesus being any special relation to him, visited different churches occasionally and read books on different religions, but had my own dilemma deciding what dogma to accept as my own. And at eight years old I was attracted to dogma. Then when my brother was shot, my faith in God was shaken as my father's was. I didn't know at that point. When I was 18 years old and "in love" with a member of the Jewish faith and culture, I observed and, when I knew we were going to marry, chose Judaism.

I guess it was partly because of my brother's brain injury and partly because I was having a lot of precognitive and "knowing" experiences that I became fascinated with the brain. I read everything I ever saw about the brain and neuroscience and searched for more. I wanted science to provide me with reasons for my gift/curse, and I pretty much found them there.

By the time I found Maria Papapetros and she helped me direct and apply my ability, I was 29 years old and a full blown atheist... out of the closet. I ignored anything she said about spirit guides. In one class, our exercise was to go into our individual spaces we'd created and see our individual spirit guardians wrapped as a mummy and unwrap him/her slowly starting at the feet until he/she was completely exposed, and then converse with him/her. At the end of the exercise people talked about their guardian spirits as being Indian chiefs and angels and all variety of entities. Mine was me... a very confident, blissful, loving me.

And, of course, since Maria is a rather renown psychic, she taught us to read through psychometry. Her preference was gold jewelry that the subject had owned for at least six months. It made sense to me... was scientifically feasible... because I perceived the jewelry as an antenna... a conduit for their brain waves.

I remained a true believer in collective brain waves with no spiritual involvement whatsoever until my experience in Virginia. And then I was difficult to convince... the dream in which the men in grey were showing me how the universe works and told me it was important for me to understand as the alarm went off recurred many times with me cursing at them to get the f*ck out of my bedroom, take their crap about fate and destiny, believe it if THEY wanted, but to get a clue that I wasn't about to buy into it... and let me sleep in peace for ten more minutes!!! I didn't start out that bad, of course, but I got increasingly more frustrated that they persisted with the same crap every morning and ignored my protestations. I thought I was being pretty clear.

It was only the second recurring dream I'd ever had in my life. The first one was about seven years prior. I dreamt that my boss was violently raping me and it was horrific... morning after morning. He was sexually harassing me, which is tantamount to rape, but I was in denial as to the severe predatory nature of sexual harassment, and it recurred until I finally came out of denial... OUCH! I woke from it one morning, sat bolt upright in bed and said, "That's exactly what this is... rape!" And, at that point, I was able to take definitive action. Until then, I had been slithering around behind his back, looking for another job, but having no luck because I kept bursting into tears on the interviews.

When I came out of denial, I realized the dream recurred because it was important for me to see the reality of the situation so that I would take appropriate action.

And when I realized the dream in Virginia was recurring, I knew that it too was because it was... as the men in grey kept saying... important for me to understand what they were showing me.

Btw, I've been having a recurring theme dream again lately... karma. When I was teaching my boss how to use Excel for text reports (and finding the Yi's counsel on something else in my life "illogical" and difficult to accept), I was having dreams nightly about a karma balance sheet... focus on the balance. And then right after I received the Osho Zen tarot cards in the mail and did a reading that again was the same illogical and difficult-to-accept counsel, I dreamt all night about working on the Karma News magazine... laying it out to go to press. After that one, I realized I was doing the recurring thing again and asked the Yi why. They answered 5.6 to 9. Hmmmmm.

Well gee Dobro... she said sardonically... did I give you enough religious background? Oh I suspect I did, and I should probably pack up and go home now. Back to the thread? *grin*

Love,

Val

 

[dobro p]

Yeah, you've got background. But what do you make of the fact that what came through for you recently was very different to atheism? It wasn't as though you were looking for God now, was it? So how come God came looking for you? What's your understanding of the dynamics or intelligence or 'agenda' of what's been unfolding in you recently?

 

[pakua]

Martin said:

"Love and truth are the pillars of the temple of the universe. When one of them is missing the roof comes down."

Still, as we said before, where and what is truth?

Someone believes for half their life in a "truth", and lives their life passionately and full-throttle according to that truth, and then, they have some good transits which stimulates some awakening to another "truth", and now they live passionately according to the new "truth". In another 10 or 30 years, it will happen all over again, dependng on what else happens.

The truth constantly changes.

Sorry Val if it looks like I'm using your story as an example, but the truth is it's the same for all of us. Your tale made a good reference, is all.

 

[dobro p]

Each person with an honest heart tells the best truth he/she can. But it's the truth. They're not looking away from what they know to be true. And if what they perceive when they look at things squarely and with heart is not the same thing that I see when I do the same, it makes no difference. It's still the truth.

Scientific truth, describable, measured and repeatable, is a much lower order of truth.