Spiritual hierarchy

[pakua]

Hi Val,

I keep coming back to your statement: "The greatest thing a person can aspire to... is to love and be loved... "

My only question about that was, if someone like Beethoven or Tesla, who give such a huge gift to the world, choose to aspire to something other than to love and be loved, ie follow whatever other path they choose, why is that necessarily a lesser path? Doesn't everyone have their own destiny that they need to fulfill?

As an example, let's say Tesla never really knew love. His path was this science thing. On the other hand, let's say there's a gangster type who loves his family and wants them to love him, yet he goes around killing people in between. Who is on the "higher" path? Who did more for the world?

I agree wholeheartedly, love is great. Everyone wants that warmy fuzzy feeling. I just question whether that good feeling is enough, especially if it's only the romantic kind, if you're seriously searching.

 

[pakua]

I know Dobro, I'm not saying anything about honesty, or facts.

I'm just saying, we have no idea what truth is. It changes from year to year, from day to day. We feel differently today than we did yesterday, maybe because we know more, maybe because we see things from a different angle, maybe we made a little connection while we dreamed, whatever.

Suddenly everything is different, and truth is the casualty. How can something be a constant when it shifts all the time?

 

[dobro p]

"I'm just saying, we have no idea what truth is... How can something be a constant when it shifts all the time?"

I understand exactly what you're saying. And what I'm just saying is that it doesn't matter if it shifts and changes from one time to the next, or from one person to the next. If the heart is honest, then what it perceives is truth.

But if you're uncomfortable with that, then how about saying it this way: "There is actually one big, real truth which none of us, or almost none of us, see. We only get occasional glimpses of truth. The rest of the time, the truth gets distorted through our cloudy perceptions."

 

[martin]

I think what matters is not so much the truth but rather "truthing". The truth is a thing, "truthing" is an activity. Discovering, uncovering, asking questions, and so on.
And what you are doing is just that, Pakua. You are truthing. It's not surprising that the truths that you find change all the time. If you want the truth to remain constant there is only one way: stop truthing.

 

[cal val]

Pakua...

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

The truth constantly changes.

....but the truth is it's the same for all of us.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Was this juxtaposition intentional???

Love,

Val

 

[candid]

Truthing. Interesting idea, Martin, especially when taken to the ultimate universal level. Then truthing is emanating from the truther through our subjective process, just as light has no color until is passes through a prism.

 

[pakua]

Yes Val, a little humour

Dobro, is it that there is one real truth that we see glimpses of, or does that one real truth change all the time? Which would mean it doesn't really exist, doesn't it, or at most, for just as long as it takes until it changes.

"If the heart is honest, then what it perceives is truth. "

I would say, it perceives what it thinks is true at the moment. Actually, I wonder if honesty even comes into play, if you take into account that most of us are seriously deluded anyway.

But I think what you're saying is, it doesn't matter, as long as you act or be according to your truth of the moment?

 

[cal val]

Martin...

Interesting answering about truthing... *grin* And so timely. I'm sitting here musing that the word "truth" came out as a response to a post in which I did not use the word truth once. And the reason I didn't use it is because I wasn't talking about truths.

At some point soon I'll come back and answer Dobro's interesting questions and clarify my rather nebulous and mysterious comment about "truth" above... but not now... I'm rather busy here. Actually, this post has been sitting on my taskbar for quite some time now because I keep getting interrupted by work and may be dated already.

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

Hi again Dobro...

You're the first person to ask the questions I've quietly asked myself. A few have made assumptions and missed the target. And you're the first person to show any empathy for what it might have been like... having my head turn around my beliefs like Linda Blair's turned in "The Exorcist." I want you to know I appreciate that.

Why me? Good question. My gut tells me it's all about my surrender. Maybe I'm going to get a cosmic lollipop for surrendering to the cosmic doctor. I really don't know. I can't be certain, of course... but I do believe my connection was established the minute I surrendered. I just had to be shown what I surrendered to, and then allow myself to be guided in accordance with my surrender.

The surrender was an experiential thing as much as a conscious thing. I was in deep doodoo in several areas of my life and couldn't get myself out. And I had to let something/someone superior in wisdom and knowledge help me get out. It was that or... [unthinkable].

And, of course, whatever spiritual "truths" they showed me amounted to a blind man's encounter with the elephant... or less even... compared to the big picture. It was probably only as much as I needed to know... and I guess I'm on an "as need to know" basis with them... *grin* I suspect we all are. If you don't screw up your life... make a wrong left turn... but instead keep on going down the middle of your path, then you probably won't ever need to know.

As to where this is leading? I have had three other rather startling experiences in my life besides the Virginia experience. One was 26 years ago, one was five years ago and one was a little over two weeks ago. It appears it's all been fed to me in bits and pieces over the years... sign posts of sorts... where-this-is-leading 365 miles... where-this-is-leading 221 miles... you know? And the illogical difficult-to-accept counsel I mentioned before that the Yi and cards have given me is the next step.

Where is this all leading? I'll tell you! I'm proud to say I've been chosen to open a hole in space... a door as it were between earth and heaven and lay a path... I'm thinking something in a nice hand painted terracotta tile layed in a pleasing pattern... so that people can travel back and forth at will. The grand opening is July 17, and you're all invited! I'm just going to charge a small admission fee... at least initially... for the grand opening, and then adjust it as demand dictates.

You still with me on this Dobro? Or are you skewing your eyebrows and pondering mental health options?

*grin*

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

Pakua...

In my last post about love, I asked you a question. Unless I missed something skimming your last few posts, you haven't answered it yet. Once you do, I'll be happy to address your subsequent post. Until then...

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

Pakua...

And until then...

"Love is as critical for your mind and body as oxygen. It's not negotiable."

To read more: http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-2486.html

Enjoy!

Love,

Val

 

[dobro p]

Pakua - "I would say, it perceives what it thinks is true at the moment. Actually, I wonder if honesty even comes into play, if you take into account that most of us are seriously deluded anyway.

But I think what you're saying is, it doesn't matter, as long as you act or be according to your truth of the moment?"

Read Martin's post about 'truthing'. It's the most insightful way I've ever heard of describing this.

 

[dobro p]

"You still with me on this Dobro? Or are you skewing your eyebrows and pondering mental health options?"

No, no - the terracotta road to perfection - makes sense to me, but I figure it'll be like that train platform in Harry Potter that only wizards can see and find and use.

Surrender to a higher intelligence, okay. You understand *your* responsibility in what's happening. But are you getting any idea of what *its* agenda is?

 

[dobro p]

Or perhaps you've answered that already with your thoughts about where it's all leading. I'm wondering what it wants for you. Aside from surrender.

 

[cal val]

Dobro...

I'm thinking rectangular tiles would make a nice herringbone pattern. What are you thinking? I also like your train platform idea and am thinking maybe we could work a deal with Harry Potter's publisher for some train excursions... at least for the grand opening. Any thoughts on that?

More excellent questions you've asked. I've asked the Yi what they/it wants in return... there ain't no such thing as a free ride. And I think there might be an answer coming soon... maybe the Karma News magazine is prepping me... maybe I'll find out when the three visitors drop into my emotional pit.

I don't know where this is ultimately leading. All three startling experiences hold clues that point to the same thing. But none of them reveals the ultimate goal. I know from the experience five years ago that I won't know until it's upon me. I get the feeling, though, that the payback and the ultimate destination might be the same thing. It might be an opportunity to do something to benefit at least a small part of the world in at least a small way... so the payback then would be a much desired "give back." That would be very nice.

Love,

Val

 

[pakua]

Hi Val,

If you're referring to your question "which would you prefer? " I thought I spoke to that when I said "I agree wholeheartedly, love is great. Everyone wants that warmy fuzzy feeling."

I'm aware of the beauty and necessity of Love, and that it's the basis of all, and I love cuddling as much as anyone, maybe even more! Of course I'd rather cuddle than listen to a cd, or maybe both at once.

The topic was enlightenment and love, and what I was saying was that romantic love (or personal love) is not the way to enlightenment, in my opinion. I never heard of Bhudda giving a lesson in cuddling.

If you ask, would I rather cuddle or be enlightened, the answer is obvious.

I have similar thoughts on what you said about artists and love. I don't recall ever hearing the word artist and enlightenment being used in the same sentence.

In fact, just the opposite. From what I've read, great artists are a driven, obsessed bunch - half of them are drunks, and the other half are crazed (ok, maybe I'm generalising).

Eric Clapton and Leonard Cohen, in my opinion great artists both, but as much as I admire and respect their talents and work, and I just looovvvve their music, but let's face it, they were drug- and alcohol-addicted, womanizing, rascals.

Just to be clear, I make no judgements about any of the above, I'm just saying I don't think you'll find a great artist's lifestyle used as a model in any enlightenment curriculum any time soon.

But then, now that Cohen is a Bhuddist, maybe he's well on his way

 

[pakua]

"You are truthing. It's not surprising that the truths that you find change all the time. "

I'm not surprised either, but I'm thinking that maybe truth itself also changes. If everything else in the universe changes every instant, why should truth remain unchanging and static?

 

[cal val]

Pakua...

First of all, I want to say, although I appreciate that you have a lot of respect for Buddhism, I don't believe for a second that adherence to any one religion (and its dogma) gets anyone any closer to what you perceive as enlightment. Enlightment has been discussed many times on this forum and all you need is do a forum search for it to see why I say the following. I can tell you have your perception and may be under the impression that it's the same for everyone... it's not. I'm not going to expound on it here myself... except to say that it is momentary and transitory and requires a great deal of self exploration and reflection that most are afraid to do.

No one in this entire thread but you limited love to the romantic... or personal, as you called it (personal could also be construed as referring to self-love which is the most important love of all). So, in essence, you were debating yourself... and that's okay. In fact, that's a good thing... IF you listened... *grin* Everyone's experience with romantic love is different, and since you're relating to YOUR experience with romantic love, your assertion must be most definitely true for you. It is most definitely not true for me... definitely not. And I will not speak for anyone else including Beethoven (who had his mysterious Immortal Beloved, btw) or Nikola Tesla, having never had their experiences.

Now... to debate you alongside you... *grin*, as part of my journey in Virginia, the men in grey helped me release pain and fear that obstructed my ability to trust and to love a man, a life partner, romantically, and, as a result, I experienced love for a man like no love I've ever experienced in my life. It washed over me. It filled me up. I was immersed in it. It was powerful. Love is powerful beyond anything you can imagine. And it WAS enlightment. It was pure trust... pure love. I was connected with him AND the universe. I was stripped naked of all my defenses... trusting .. my heart and soul were bare to him... trusting... I was absolutely and completely vulnerable... I trusted him. And I felt safe... with him. The love I feel for him is no different than the love I feel for God and the men in grey. All love is connected.

I understand language. I was taught to. Changing my language was the first step I took to change myself. How people word things, how people ask for things or express their feelings, how people approach others with differing points of view says a lot about them. I can tell especially when a person is burdened with control issues because this is the biggest obstacle I've had to work hard to overcome. You know... it takes one to know one. A need for control, when reduced to the lowest common denominator, speaks of a lack of trust, particularly self-trust. And trust is the foundation on which love is built. It takes trust to surrender. And to surrender to love is to surrender to the universe.

I thought of you this morning. I strongly suspected your trust has been painfully betrayed... maybe at a young age like mine was. I wanted to hug you tight. And I wished you were here. My boss gave me a giant gift basket as a thank you this morning that she made herself of food and tea and wine from Trader Joe's. I'm eating a very yummy trail mix from the basket with chocoloate chips, almonds and cranberries that I so want to share with you. I think you'd love it.

Love,

Val

 

[littlebuddha]

If the Buddha is correct and all is illusion and everything in our world is fundamentally unreal, the only truth that can possibly exist is that ALL our perceptions, which are conjured by the fabricated ego-mind (as Dharma indicated in her first post to this thread) is a lie. That would be the only TRUTH that is consistent and eternal, everything else would be subjective, relative, and subject to change.

Although I wholeheartedly agreed with everything you said in your post Dharma, I would like to add some important comments to the issue of "choice" which you say is the only thing holding most of us back from enlightenment/awakening.

Choice implies consciousness -- a high degree of consciousness. Without it, we have no choice. Choice begins the moment we disidentify from the mind and its conditioned patterns, the moment we become present.

Until we reach that point, we function quite unconsciously, spiritually speaking. This means that we are compelled to think, feel, and act in certain ways according to the conditioning of our mind. This is what Jesus meant when he said: "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." This is not related to intelligence in the conventional sense of the word. Many highly intelligent and educated people can also be completely unconscious, which is to say completely identified with their mind.

The mind, conditioned as it is by the past, always seeks to re-create what it knows and is familiar with. Even if it's painful, at least it's familiar. The mind always adheres to the known. The unknown is dangerous because it has no control over it. That's why the mind dislikes and ignores the present moment. This is why our thoughts tend to focus in the past and/or in some hopeful future most of the time.

Present-moment awareness creates an uncomfortable gap in the stream of thought that the mind prefers to keep filled at all times. This 'gap' is the space one attempts to enter and maintain for longer periods of time during meditation sessions. The longer we can keep that gap open the more conscious and awake we become, otherwise we're all really quite asleep and dreaming. And dreamers really don't have much choice.

 

[dobro p]

Wow, there's a high number of very useful posts in this thread. Clear and heartfelt. Thanks.

 

[dharma]

Hi Littlebuddha, long time no see

That was an immensely insightful and gratifying post you shared.

And of course you are absolutely correct. Some lucidity is an absolute necessity to commencing the enlightenment process. For instance, lucidity can come in the form of a new level of trust and surrender to the Universe (as Val already pointed out very nicely for us

) or, at which time we acquire an "intellectual" understanding of, not only HOW the mind operates, but WHY it operates, as well.

Until then, we simply can't see how easily we are seduced and trapped by our mind's convincing, yet delusional movie reel. And since all thought produces it's counterpart emotion in the physical body, all our energies (read consciousness) are directed to the production of our illusions and away from the reality of our true condition.

It's hard to believe that we are not already awake, but the fact that we are compelled to repeat our conditioned patterns, over and over again implies that we are still quite asleep and caught up in a dream. Indeed, this is the crux of all the madness and insanity in our world.

Littlebuddha, I especially liked the imagery you provided of the gap in the stream of thought. I believe it will prove quite useful to me as the 'spot' into which my mental foot can firmly lodge, and consciousness can widen further.

Thank you!

 

[dobro p]

"Littlebuddha, I especially liked the imagery you provided of the gap in the stream of thought. I believe it will prove quite useful to me as the 'spot' into which my mental foot can firmly lodge, and consciousness can widen further."

Yeah, it caught my eye too. And maybe it connects to this, by Johannes Eckhart: "Examine yourself, and wherever you find yourself, then take leave of yourself. This is the best way of all." It also reminded me of the main technique recommemded by the author of the Cloud of Unknowing.

 

[gene]

A very good book has come out recently on this subject matter. It is called, "The Disappearance of the Universe" by Gary Renard

Gene

 

[gene]

Other authors of interest,

Ken Wilbur
Eckhart Tolle

Gene

 

[dharma]

Speaking of books..
For help in freeing oneself from emotional patterns, a good book to consider (with a neuro-science and the wisdom of Buddhism slant) is:
"Emotional Alchemy" by Tara Bennett-Goleman

 

[pakua]

Hi Val,

Thanks for the offer... maybe one of these days we'll figure out how to pass objects through these screens we stare at for so many hours, and then I'll take some of those chocolate chips!

I don't really consider myself a Buddhist, although I lean that way, but at different times I find myself leaning every which way

I completely agree with you, that loving someone opens many doors, and can be a powerful initiator. In the end though, love can't be limited to only one or a few others, and love has to be there without any others. In other words, I think whether one is alone or not, one must love all with that same depth or passion that one loves a beloved.

 

[dharma]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

one must love all with that same depth or passion that one loves a beloved.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Yes, that is the destination we strive for eventually, but loving 'all' is a very tall order. To wear those shoes, we must expand our (love) consciousness significantly, and for many, this cannot occur in one giant leap.

Very difficult to manage love for 'all' when the love we bring to our one-on-one relationships is far from consistent. This is mainly because we usually bypass the most important step of all - love of Self. The reason why our relationships fail more often than not.. we've not quite learned how to love ourself with passion and earnest. And we can't have in relationship that which we haven't opened up to in ourselves, not to mention that we attract and are attracted to only those who resonate to the same level of (love) consciousness as ourselves.

To love 'all', first we learn to love Self consistently, then we extend that consistency in relationship to Other, and only then can we love 'all' equally.

 

[cal val]

Dharma and Pakua...

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

this cannot occur in one giant leap.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Hmmmm, let's see... I first learned I needed to trust myself to love myself to love others about 20 years ago and started the work then.

I love myself and my life and my family and my friends and the birds that wake me in the morning and the way the light from the window changes on my bedspread as the sun moves across the sky and Elmore Leonard's snappy dialogue and the Pax de Deux and my soulmate and so much more... so much more than I ever have before and...

I'm still doing the work.

So, I'd say Yup to that too... *grin* But then again... I can be kind of slow on the uptake.

Love,

Val

 

[dharma]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I love myself and my life and my family and my friends and the birds that wake me in the morning and the way the light from the window changes on my bedspread as the sun moves across the sky and Elmore Leonard's snappy dialogue and the Pax de Deux and my soulmate and so much more...<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
yup... Appreciation, Gratitude & Joy!

Initially, I used to meet these ladies only by chance (hx38.2) but they have become common everyday companions for me now, as well.

Though the work never really ends, I'm glad I've outgrown the need to avoid issues or to imagine that I am at the mercy of outer forces beyond me. I know without doubt that I am the change that I seek - knowing that makes me direct the course of my own growth in a deliberate fashion.

Life is nothing short of a gas as a full participant. Of course, Life still offers up surprises (ding!dong!) and I've discovered that when I trustingly open up, instead of spying out the peephole apprehensively, there's always a valuable gift left sitting on the stoop... just for me!

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I can be kind of slow on the uptake<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Know how many people never even realize that there's anything to takeup? only practising being quick on the draw?

not to mention those that have a sneaking suspicion they should get busy but remain with the devil they know than the one they don't? Yup, I thought you did.

At least with 'slow' we're participating in a way that allows us to call some of those shots - infinitely better than getting dragged periodically by the Fates, kicking and screaming and resisting the necessary and inevitable changes to our growth, and missing the point altogether.

In a package of Lifesafers, you Val, are a red one! love ya

 

[Sparhawk]

I'm an orange M&M and, like the their newest commercial, nothing seems to rhyme with me...

Glad to see you back, Demitra. As for Val, well, she loves me. That's easy to see though, she loves most everybody here...

I wish you could read Spanish. In my Spanish language blog I've been sharing quite a few gut-wrenching feelings these past few weeks about things happening in my life. All in a series of metaphorical short tales about my visits to my accupuncturist and the time I have, while I'm there, to think about some issues. And there is some poetry too... Oddly enough, it has to do with some of the issues discussed here, about loving self and others.

It doesn't make sense to translate them. Personal feelings expressed in one language do not translate well onto others, even though I know, quite well actually, how to express them in English. They are just little distress signals, on one hand, and wavering a flag of joy with the other.

Odd how life keeps surprising us.

In any case, sorry I butted in here (that's my usual tendency on threads...a Kamikaze), but the latest postings resonated, and being yours and Val's, made them even more meaningful. I admire smart women. Perhaps a weakness, depending on whom is observing from the outside.

Luis


PS: Candid, I thought of you last week. I was on Route 66, in New Mexico... Funny thing, and one heck of a synchronistic event, that a runaway bride ended up in the same city I was, Albuquerque, at the same time I was there... LOL!! Just watch the news... Nope, she wasn't with me, but I know that a cohort of Buddas are laughing their asses off, somewhere up in heaven.

PSS: And Val, when I joke that I would take a plane and go places, if the connection is real and unbearable to resist, sometimes I do... I have. Utterly exposed here but I think we all know each other, well enough within the confinement of the media, to share a few awkward things. Not up to be judged though, just sharing.