61. Chung Fu / Inner Truth

meng · Nov 8, 2009

In this case, the only ignorance was Wilhelm's, Mike.

Intelligence research was done with pigs in the 1990s. One of the experiments was to train the pigs to move the cursor on a video screen with their snouts. When the pigs used the cursors again, they were able to distinguish between the scribbles they already knew, and the scribbles they were seeing for the first time. The pigs learned this skill as fast as the chimpanzees.

All species of pig are smarter than dogs, and capable of abstract representation. “They can hold an icon in their mind, and remember it at a later date,” says Professor Stanley Curtis of Penn State University, who discovered that pigs dominate at video games with joy sticks. Curtis goes on to say, “Pigs are able to focus with an intensity I have never seen in a chimp.”
Smarter Than a Three-Year-Old Child

Other tests were done where the pigs were taught the meaning of simple words and phrases. Several years later, the instructions were repeated, and the pigs still remembered what to do. The same thing was done with different objects placed in front of them. They were taught to jump over, sit by, or retrieve the item. Three years later, they could distinguish between the items.

The studies also showed:

* Pigs lead complex social lives that behaviorists once believed to be true only of primates.
* Mother pigs sing to their piglets while they are nursing.
* They excel at video games that would be hard for a young child, and sometimes better than the primates.
* Pigs dream.
* Pigs have a good sense of direction, and can find their way home from long distances.
* They learn from watching one another.
* Pigs outsmart each other. One will often follow another pig to food before grabbing it away from him, and the pig who was tricked will change behaviors to reduce how many times it is tricked.

In Good Company

Pigs share the smart scene with other amazing animals. Each with their own specialty, their own aptitude. But, as as far as domestic animals go, the pigs have it.

Other animals of great intellect are:

* The great apes, and chimps
* Whales
* Dolphins
* Parrots
* Octopus
* Dogs
* Cats
* Squirrels

There isn't an exact formula for deciphering superior intelligence. Intelligence in animals, as in humans, is a matter of arenas, and degrees. Still, we are a curious species, and the comparisons remain interesting.

But beside his literal incorrectness, I always felt his 61 missed the point due to his habit of grading levels of superiority. While there's merit to grading merit, I don't see 61 as a place for it.

my_key · Nov 8, 2009

meng said:
In this case, the only ignorance was Wilhelm's, Mike..........

But beside his literal incorrectness, I always felt his 61 missed the point due to his habit of grading levels of superiority. While there's merit to grading merit, I don't see 61 as a place for it.

Hi Meng

That's some interesting modern day research which I bet Wilhelm is kicking himself he never had access to .
Grading of merit...that's interesting. Some musings that have been going through my mind are:
Is there a sense here of there being lots of truths. As we go up the ladder of truthfulness (for want of a better phrase....truth Fullness.... where we are full of truth or perhaps where our truth is at it's fullest?) there are many rungs (grades). As we stop and stand on each rung that truth is our TRUTH at that level of the ladder, but maybe it is not THE TRUTH. It is not the WHOLE TRUTH the INNER TRUTH.
Is this some sort of take on "In my house are many mansions"?
I'm just throwing this one out there....who knows what I'm trying to hit.

Mike

pantherpanther · Nov 8, 2009

To all that is used-up, and to all the muffled and dumb
creatures in the world’s full reserve, the unsayable sums,
joyfully add yourself, and cancel the count.

(Rainer Maria Rilke, “Sonnets to Orpheus”, II:13, trans. Stephen Mitchell)*

As to the ladder, Gurdijeff noted that the Way begins after its top step.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
*
Sei - und wisse zugleich des Nicht-Seins Bedingung,
den unendlichen Grund deiner innigen Schwingung,
dass du sie völlig vollziehst dieses einzige Mal.

[Be, and at the same time know non-being,
know the eternal basis of your innermost seeing:
that you realize it fully, if only for this moment.
(My translation )]

Zu dem gebrauchten sowohl, wie zum dumpfen und stummen
Vorrat der vollen Natur, den unsäglichen Summen,
zähle dich jubelnd hinzu und vernichte die Zahl.

meng · Nov 8, 2009

pantherpanther said:
To all that is used-up, and to all the muffled and dumb
creatures in the world’s full reserve, the unsayable sums,
joyfully add yourself, and cancel the count.

(Rainer Maria Rilke, “Sonnets to Orpheus”, II:13, trans. Stephen Mitchell)

Love it.

Mike, if I say this is it, it isn't. But for sake of discussion, the gradient of intelligence and the relative truths to each grade is fitting for h60, but not for 61. 61's truth, as I see it, is more akin to the uneatable fruit of 23. It is the emptiness of a bowl, or the space within a canoe, or the potential tree within a seed; it is an open way, not a gradient of relative truths.

charly · Nov 8, 2009

meng said:
... But beside his literal incorrectness, I always felt his 61 missed the point due to his habit of grading levels of superiority...

Bruce:

Many thanks in name of the piglets!

From: http://blife.exblog.jp/8323900/

中孚 RELIABILITY IS CENTRAL

Charly

meng · Nov 8, 2009

Not to jump ahead, but I think the shade is where 61 lives.

From 61.2 shade/yin: the moon, shaded orientation, north side of a hill or mountain, south bank of a river, vagina, penis (potential), covert; concealed; hidden, of the nether world, overcast, sinister; treacherous.

my_key · Nov 8, 2009

meng said:
Love it.

Mike, if I say this is it, it isn't. But for sake of discussion, the gradient of intelligence and the relative truths to each grade is fitting for h60, but not for 61. 61's truth, as I see it, is more akin to the uneatable fruit of 23. It is the emptiness of a bowl, or the space within a canoe, or the potential tree within a seed; it is an open way, not a gradient of relative truths.

OK - So that may be a useful transition thought - so we are now stepping onto the threshold of 61. Lets see where the emptiness of the bowl takes this thread.
Mike

Mike

rosada · Nov 8, 2009

THE IMAGE

Wind over lake: the image of INNER TRUTH.
Thus the superior man discusses criminal cases
In order to delay executions.

-Wilhelm

fkegan · Nov 9, 2009

Hi All,

I doubt any view of the actual intelligence of either pigs or fishes is intended. They are simply the animals well known in ancient China with the least consideration for anything individual about them. The meaning of the hexagram, one of the final four in the King Wen Sequence, is all about its structure which indicates what is open inside in the line places of the passions and heart or soul. This is not so much about a shadow or the general open bowl, but the unlimited potential of the open space in poem 11 of Lao Tzu.

This Inner Truth or potential feelings of the Quiet and Open Heart is Universal Truth and therefore it would include even the lowest status animals such as pigs and fishes. A comment upon the Universality of ultimate Source that includes All.

Consider hex 61 as a concrete symbol of the Great Circle with its circumference that is everything manifest and its Center which is intangible though Ultimate. Then consider how to describe that in words and concepts. If you read the Wilhelm commentary about 'pigs and fishes' it isn't about their ability to solve IQ puzzles. Rather it is about how they do not react easily to human activity, 'they are hard to influence.' It requires a powerful and universal Truth to affect and include those who are so non-responsive. It is a symbolic and poetic description of the power and influence of what is found in ultimate meditation.

Frank

frank_r · Nov 9, 2009

With 61 and 62 we are closing the second part as we did with 27 and 28 the first part of the Yi. As 27 and 28,as life and death, the expressions of cosmic powers. 61 and 62 are the principle expressions of human powers. 61 has this empty centre, not a gaping emptiness like 27, not a compulsive, mindless need. Here is the emptiness of the centre surrounded by strenght, strenght below of body and strenghth above of spirit. (1)

The centre in 61 is the real knowing, it is yin. The same is with piglets and fish they are also both yin.
Hard to influence yes, they have a sort of yin intelligence the fish a more water -yin and the pigs more earthly yin.

When you compare 61 with 29(they both have two yin lines in the centre on the place of the heart and kidney. At the same time both 29 and 61 can be mirrored). With 29 there is no protection of the inner part, the outside is open and can be influeunced. But on the other hand 61 as image looks like a double 30, so there is the protection of the rational mind ,like the skull hard from the outside, soft from the inside.

The trigrams wind and lake are wood and metal. The elements of the spring and autumn, the places where the biggest changes can be seen in the year.

Everything together when we can understand and live the yin intelligence of openness. We can make a big change in understanding what emptiness in our heart is.

(1) Yijing Wondering and Wandering - Janne Schorre and Carrin Dunne pag 247.

Frank

rosada · Nov 9, 2009

Wind stirs water by penetrating it. Thus the superior man, when obliged to judge the mistakes of men, tries to penetrate their minds with understanding, in order to gain a sympathetic appreciation of the circumstances. In ancient China, the entire administration of justice was guided by this principle. A deep understanding that knows how to pardon was considered the highest form of justice. This system was not without success, for its aim was to make so strong a moral impression that there was no reason to fear abuse of such mildness. For it sprang not from weakness but from a superior clarity.
-Wilhelm

charly · Nov 9, 2009

meng said:
Not to jump ahead, but I think the shade is where 61 lives.

From 61.2 shade/yin: the moon, shaded orientation, north side of a hill or mountain, south bank of a river, vagina, penis (potential), covert; concealed; hidden, of the nether world, overcast, sinister; treacherous.

Bruce:

I believe that all H.61 belongs to shade. It could be seen as a NOCTURNAL JOURNEY TO THE OTHER WORLD.

Yours,

Charly

charly · Nov 9, 2009

fkegan said:
... If you read the Wilhelm commentary about 'pigs and fishes' it isn't about their ability to solve IQ puzzles. Rather it is about how they do not react easily to human activity, 'they are hard to influence.' It requires a powerful and universal Truth to affect and include those who are so non-responsive. It is a symbolic and poetic description of the power and influence of what is found in ultimate meditation.
...

Frank:

I have read somewhere thar Wilhelm discarded the idea of translating DOLPHIN instead of PIGS & FISHES.

I remember DOLPHIN in Blofeld and in Denis Mair (1), but I believe that the idea is ancient. Not the sea dolphins but the popular RIVER dolphins from the Yang-Tse River. This river dolphins were very sociable people, mother dolphin had only one child after almost a year of gestation, is a very good mother known by take care of him with love.

I believe that one of the possible meanings of ZHONG FU should be CHILD CARE, and see that, if you prefer pigs & fishes, the first character doesn't denote PIG but SUCLIKG PIGLET.

Maybe an advice:

TAKE CARE OF THE MAIN
WITH THE LOVE THAT MOTHER DOLPHIN USES WITH HER CUB.

Or a blessing:

HAVE SO MANY CHILDREN AS FISHES
AND TAKE CARE OF THEM LIKE A SOW WITH HER PIGLETS.

Maybe not so much about intelligence but about LOVE and DEDICATION.

Another possibility:

FOCUSE THE CENTRE AND BE HAPPY LIKE A PIGLET NURSING.

Do you agree?

Yours,

Charly

__________________________________
(1) From D.Mair I remember another alternative the GLOBE FISH, somebody like this:

From: http://www.aradersf.com/catesbyselection.htm

meng · Nov 10, 2009

Charly,

Your reference to piglets, fishes and river dolphin as people (or a people) is so perfectly 61, brother.

Imagine being reborn as a worm, and the other worm children laughing at you for being such a stupid worm. Then you hear a gentle voice say: It's not his fault. He was a human in his last life.

maremaria · Nov 10, 2009

Having my coffee break and found this. I don't know if this site has valid information but having a glance i could see some wind and lake in the dolphin.

Dolphin, Power Animal, Symbol of Breath of Life, Love, Balance and Community

By Ina Woolcott

Dolphin teaches us that when we live in tune with the patterns and rhythm of nature, we learn how to truly be in touch with, resonate and communicate with All That IS and how to share this sagacity with anyone interested. There are those that believe Dolphins are more intelligent than humans. Especially when it comes to love. They have large brains, superior intelligence and are often associated in mythical lore with higher forms of consciousness. Some believe they are far more evolved than we are, especially on a spiritual level. Some believe they are alien beings from a different dimension.

Dolphins are connected with the power of breath and with emotional release, which are also both deeply connected. One of the most important factors in spiritual growth is to give ourselves the freedom of full experiencing our feelings and emotions. Often negative emotions are suppressed as we don't want to be a part of them, so we try to stay apart from them. Feelings of sadness, pain, anger, grief. We need to stop doing this, as this only lays the foundation for disagreeable outcomes. We need to feel our feelings, by suppressing these feelings, of course they DO NOT go away. They are still there, subconsciously, manifesting blocked energy with-in, and if these blocks aren't removed, this can go on to physical imbalances, with-out. On top of this, by blocking these so called negative feelings, this can result in losing the quality of being able to feel at all, losing much of life's joy. Becoming dead to the world.

Simply stated breathing is conversing with the outside world. When people feel that the outside world is a source of pain, they learn, very frequently at a young age, to constrict their breathing. The diaphragm is built to assist us in breathing and to feel deeply, but it becomes suppressed. When we learn to breathe deeply we can learn to feel deeply, in turn letting go of stifled feelings. One way of doing this is to copy the dolphins pattern of breathing, a superb tension reliever!. Dolphin breathes deeply, holds his breath underwater, then breathes out forcefully. Living in water is an important characteristic of Dolphin, as in many belief systems, including astrology, water is related to feeling and emotion.

If Dolphin swims into your life, he is asking you to relish water both physically and mentally, swimming freely and going along with your natural feelings. He is showing you how to enter the waters of life and then with breath and sound call forth what you most need or desire. Dolphins use a variety of whistles, grunts, clicks, and body postures to communicate. They have unique, personal whistles they give out. If they want to get the attention of another Dolphin, they give out their personal whistle. Sound is the creative life force and a big part of dolphins life, therefore this needs to be a part of your life. Communicate. With those around you and All That Is. Creating inner sounds creates outer manifestations. If Dolphin is your power animal, you may do well using your voice for healing or communicating, whether incorporating this into a job or just as a hobby or in day to day life with those nearest and dearest to you..

Dolphins have a wise, innocent, purity of being which reaches out to our inner nature. Follow their lead and open yourself to the energy of love, harmony and balance. Express your inner truth, be true to yourself. follow your inner joy. Dolphin is asking you to go back to your roots, to the depths of your being and rediscover the Love that you truly are.

Dolphins spend most of their day playing. Their life is lived in joyful harmony with each other and their world. Apparently they have learned the lesson that love is the most important factor in life. If dolphin is your power animal he may be there to teach you how to love yourself and your world more. A big part of Dolphins medicine is living in balanced, harmonious communities. They live in big groups of up to 100. Females will give birth to a single offspring, with several dolphins around her, helping with the birth, pulling the newborn out by its tail. They then protect him or her from any imminent danger. If a dolphin is hurt or ill, other dolphins will tend to them, lifting them to the surface to breathe.

Dolphins Wisdom Includes - Knowledge of the sea, change, patron of sailors, harmony, wisdom, balance, Communication skills, freedom, trust, understanding the power of rhythm in your life, use of breath to release intense emotions, water element magic, unselfishness. Dolphin reminds us to get out, play and most importantly, to breathe.

meng · Nov 10, 2009

dolphins...

Wonderful creatures, as any sailor will testify. But also capable of unusual violence, such as harassing, even to death, animals of the same or different species. While they're not entirely alone in this way, since cats kill mice, dogs kill rabbits, as though playing out early bred instincts, dolphins execute attacks of surgical precision on vital organs, maiming and killing for no known reason, other than sport or peer pressure. But so as not to judge them too severely, those are the same capabilities which make them capable of warding off attacks of much bigger predators. So, are they just keeping their survival skills up by their seemingly cruel behavior? And if so, is that also in accord with 61's inner truth?

meng · Nov 10, 2009

My point in mentioning that? Well for one, and please don't take this in any way personally, Maria, I know you didn't write the article

, but it's an anthropomorphic fantasy, something we humans are prone to. The reality of a dolphin to a small squid or fish is quite another picture altogether.

So again, where is inner truth in all of this? I have my own idea about it. I ask that you stay my execution. :bows:

Wind blows across lake, and I am moved accordingly. Lake is moved by wind; that is, not the lake but the water in the lake. If the water in the lake, moved by the wind were to say "I am the wind", it wouldn't be right or wrong, both would be true, but only one would be inner truth.

charly · Nov 10, 2009

meng said:
Charly,

Your reference to piglets, fishes and river dolphin as people (or a people) is so perfectly 61, brother.

Imagine being reborn as a worm, and the other worm children laughing at you for being such a stupid worm. Then you hear a gentle voice say: It's not his fault. He was a human in his last life.

Bruce:

I was not the inventor of pigs, fishes and dolphins in H.61.

Maybe Wilhelm thinked only at sea dolphins when prefered the option of stupid pigs, but river dolphins were ihnabitants of the yang-tse river before the men even exit. Scientists believe that the BaiJi is now extinct, but see people in company of dangerous river dolphins in Amazonia:

From: http://www.iceaxetv.com/Amazon/photos.html

Dolphin call tells calf who’s mum
BBC News, 23 July 2008
“Female bottlenose dolphins whistle 10 times more often than usual after giving birth in order to help newborns recognise who is “mum”.” Dolphins have unique signature whistles that can identify who’s who.
From: http://blogs.ntu.edu.sg/library/hss/index.php/archives/741

Of course, there are many animal at H.61, mammals, birds, even maybe bugs:

H.61: piglets, fishes or dolphins
61.1: tiger & swallow
61.2: calling crane & her children
61.3: ... no animals here? (1)
61.4: mate of horses, one vanishes (2)
61.5: fu should be a sort of ANT (Waley)
61.6: a cock or, for some authors, a hen

I believe that all H.61 could be, among another things, about the process of YOUNGS INITIATION, more to do with CHILD CARE than to any sort of TRUTH, inner or outer.

Yours,

Charly

________________________
(1) maybe ANIMALS MATING mating, but of course, an interpretation of «getting match»
(2) maybe here not an animal, as ma, HORSE, is pronunced the same as MOTHER, there is a possibility, I belive, that ma pi instead of horse pair mean mother's pair, say the ONCLE!

meng · Nov 10, 2009

Charly, yup, I'm aware of that, but yer the one who mentioned it in this thread.

There's other ways and means of expressing it too. Such as a primitive hunter's instinct, being led to the pig through the pig's own spirit. As an ex die hard fisherman, I know, if you want to consistently catch fish, you must listen to the fish.

There's more I could say with enthusiasm on this one, but it's probably better to withdraw now and let the thread move on. Thanks for indulging me.

charly · Nov 10, 2009

meng said:
... Such as a primitive hunter's instinct, being led to the pig through the pig's own spirit. As an ex die hard fisherman, I know, if you want to consistently catch fish, you must listen to the fish...

Bruce:

Have you heard the dolphin's whistle?

*** In the past, the baiji [the chinese river dolphin] had been protected by custom, since the Chinese considered it to be an incarnation of a drowned princess (Burton & Pearson 1987). It also has a nickname in China - "Giant Panda of the Yangtze River" - that may reflect the general affection for this aquatic mammal [(1)] (Tan 1996).
From: Animal Info - Endangered Animals
at: http://www.animalinfo.org/species/cetacean/lipovexi.htm

Best regards,

Charly

____________________________
(1) 哺乳動物 bǔrǔdòngwù = mammal, literally somoething like FED [WITH] MILK LIVING BEING, does you recognize something in the second character?

rosada · Nov 10, 2009

THE IMAGE

Wind over lake: the image of INNER TRUTH.
Thus the superior man discusses criminal cases
In order to delay execution.

Tui is the image of the mouth - hence discussion. Sun is the Gentle, the hesitating - hence delay of executions. In other hexagrams, Sun also means commands. Killing and judging are attributes of Tui.
-Wilhelm

maremaria · Nov 10, 2009

meng said:
My point in mentioning that? Well for one, and please don't take this in any way personally, Maria, I know you didn't write the article , but it's an anthropomorphic fantasy, something we humans are prone to. The reality of a dolphin to a small squid or fish is quite another picture altogether.

So again, where is inner truth in all of this? I have my own idea about it. I ask that you stay my execution. :bows:

.

Unfortunely, this article is based on stories, myths, flavoured with some new age stuffs
The relationship between humans and dolphins considered very special, as depicted in art, myths and writings of historian and philosophers in our history and perhaps of other civilization’s too.

Its interesting that the name dolphin (wombfish) comes from a word that means womb and hollow. But this is off topic I guess.

Btw, what does the expression “I ask that you stay my execution “ means.

meng · Nov 10, 2009

maremaria said:
Its interesting that the name dolphin (wombfish) comes from a word that means womb and hollow. But this is off topic I guess.

Btw, what does the expression “I ask that you stay my execution “ means.

Not in the least off topic.

A stay of execution:

"The noble one discusses criminal cases in order to delay executions"

charly · Nov 11, 2009

maremaria said:
Unfortunely, this article is based on stories, myths, flavoured with some new age stuffs
The relationship between humans and dolphins considered very special, as depicted in art, myths and writings of historian and philosophers in our history and perhaps of other civilization’s too.

Its interesting that the name dolphin (wombfish) comes from a word that means womb and hollow. But this is off topic I guess.

Btw, what does the expression “I ask that you stay my execution “ means.

Hi, Maria:

I believe fortunately.

You may speak of the greek etymology. I suppose that an ancient greek connection is central to understand chinese thinking from Zhous´ times.

Greek connection:

dolphin ... c.1350, from O.Fr. daulphin, from M.L. dolfinus, from L. delphinus "dolphin," from Gk. delphis (gen. delphinos) "dolphin," related to delphys "womb," probably via notion of the animal bearing live young. Popularly applied to the dorado from late 16c.

Delphi ... oracle town on slopes of Mount Parnassus, from Gk. delphis "dolphin" (see dolphin). Supposedly Apollo assumed this form to found the shrine. Related: Delphic (1590s).

dauphin... "eldest son of the king of France" (title in use from 1349-1830), 1485, from Fr. dauphin, lit. "dolphin" (see dolphin). Originally the title attached to "the Dauphin of Viennois," whose province (in the Fr. Alps north of Provence) came to be known as Dauphiné. Three dolphins were on the coat of arms of the lords of Viennois, first worn by Guido IV (d.1142). It is said to have been originally a personal name among the lords of Viennois. Humbert III, the last lord of Dauphiné, ceded the province to Philip of Valois in 1349, on condition that the title be perpetuated by the eldest son of the king of France.

Adelphia... district of London, so called because it was laid out by four brothers of a family named Adam, from Gk. adelphos "brother," lit. "from the same womb," from copulative prefix a- "together with" + delphys "womb," perhaps related to dolphin (q.v.). The district was the site of a popular theater c.1882-1900, which gave its name to a style of performance.

Philadelphia ... city in Pennsylvania, U.S., from Gk., taken by William Penn to mean lit. "brotherly love," from philos "loving" + adelphos "brother" (see Adelphi). Also the name recalls that of the ancient city in Lydia, mentioned in the N.T., which was so called in honor of Attalos II Philadelphos, 2c B.C.E. king of Pergamon, who founded it.

For our job is important to know the history of Delphy Oracle, Apolo, Aprodite... and dolphins.

The fine relief carved in bone depicts Aphrodite after her bath, standing on a base. Beside her right leg is a dolphin, her right hand is under her breast, and she is covering herself with her left hand.

From: Bone Relief of Aphrodite with Dolphin
at: http://www.eternalegypt.org/Eternal...le_id=&element_id=123&language_id=1&text=text

The statue depicts the goddess Aphrodite and her son Eros... She wears two bracelets in the shape of a snake on her arms. The left forearm and the hand are missing...
From: http://www.eternalegypt.org/Eternal...le_id=&language_id=1&element_id=122&text=text

I wonder where was the left hand of Aphrodite if not over the head of Eros.

And the connection with H.61?

中孚
zhong1 fu2
CENTRAL RELIABILITY
FU DEPICTS A HAND OVER THE HEAD OF A CHILD

These are two words meaning BREAST / MILK:

奶 nǎi
乳 rǔ

Of course, ru [breast / milk] is like fu with a stroke added at the right.

With standing man added at the left it means prisoner of war, but this is another story (1).

Best whishes,

Charly

P.D.
Bruce is asking for GRACE, say stop execution, not because of his merits but for your own generosity.
Ch.

_____________________________________
(1) some curious characters:

孚 = 爪 [claw, hand] / 子 = trust
乳 = 孚 + 乙[two] = breast / milk
俘 = 人[man] + 孚 = war prisoner / booty
郛 = 孚 + 山[mountain/place] = outer defense of a feudal residence
浮 = [water] + 孚 = floating [like Moses basket] / be cheerful
桴 = 木 [tree/wood] + 孚 = rafter, support of the roof
艀 = 舟 [boat] + 孚 = sampan [the little boatman]
蜉 = [bug] + 孚 = kind of large insect / ant (Waley, the insect that carries his eggs in the claws)
孵 = 孚 + 卵 [egg] = sit on eggs / hatch

frank_r · Nov 11, 2009

Maria, Speaking of Dolphins as being wombfish. The womb - uturus has everything to do with blood - the yin in our body. And according to Chinese TCM theory breast milk is blood without the colour red.
The colour red comes from the heart. But in Chinese Phylosophy love has to do with the Liver and blood and not with the heart. The heart has to do with propriety.
The virtue of the Liver is humankindness , the possibility to love other people. So the breast milk is love from the mother on a personal level.
When our blood is strong than the Hun - our etheric soul has a place to stay and the we can be kind to other people.

And in 61 the yin lines 3 and 4 are protected through the other 4 lines.

Frank

rodaki · Nov 11, 2009

thoughts on 61 . .

I wonder if people see in the image of 61 a wind instrument . . the sound that comes out of it does not belong to the breath but neither to the instrument's empty cavity . . it is the manifestation of their effect on one another (sometimes this is not as easy as it seems -anyone ever tried to make a sound out of a saxophone?)

in terms of the Delphi oracle, there are a lot of stories that recount how important decisions were not made until the oracle was consulted . . thus executions were delayed.
Maybe 61 delays execution because it stays altogether away from judgement, acceptance feels more like its domain -yin nature?

here is some information on Aphrodite and Apollo

edit: from wikipedia's article on Delphi

Supposedly carved into the temple were three phrases: γνωθι σεαυτόν (gnōthi seautón = "know thyself") and μηδέν άγαν (mēdén ágan = "nothing in excess"), and Εγγύα πάρα δ'ατη (engýa pára d'atē = "make a pledge and mischief is nigh")

meng · Nov 11, 2009

rodaki said:
thoughts on 61 . .

I wonder if people see in the image of 61 a wind instrument . . the sound that comes out of it does not belong to the breath but neither to the instrument's empty cavity . . it is the manifestation of their effect on one another (sometimes this is not as easy as it seems -anyone ever tried to make a sound out of a saxophone?)

in terms of the Delphi oracle, there are a lot of stories that recount how important decisions were not made until the oracle was consulted . . thus executions were delayed.
Maybe 61 delays execution because it stays altogether away from judgement, acceptance feels more like its domain -yin nature?

A wind instrument, beautiful. Especially a wooden flute or a reed mouthpiece instrument. Like that a lot.

And the delay of judgment until the oracle (objectivity) is consulted - good stuff!

rodaki · Nov 11, 2009

maremaria · Nov 11, 2009

meng said:
Not in the least off topic.

A stay of execution:

"The noble one discusses criminal cases in order to delay executions"

Thanks for explaining.

maremaria · Nov 11, 2009

rodaki said:
thoughts on 61 . .

I wonder if people see in the image of 61 a wind instrument . . the sound that comes out of it does not belong to the breath but neither to the instrument's empty cavity . . it is the manifestation of their effect on one another (sometimes this is not as easy as it seems -anyone ever tried to make a sound out of a saxophone?)

good to bring it up !!

Meng had post a small video of wind chimes and there was a discussion about it in CC.

Meng, if it still available, can be post here too. It would be nice imo

61. Chung Fu / Inner Truth

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