Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
Hi my-key
I'm perplexed.
The cast hexagram is usually seen as the current situation, 'as encountered' and the relating hexagram is usually seen as the direction of change. As such we may never arrive at the resulting hexagram. Other events may create different changes before that. (Thank you for that insight Bradford and bless you).
How can there be two expressions of each of these? Have I misunderstood?
When I first read that, I was a bit perplexed by what you meant, but I didn't think it was central to the questions I had about the nuclear trigrams and hexagrams, so I didn't give it much thought.... the relating hexagram is usually seen as the direction of change. As such we may never arrive at the resulting hexagram. Other events may create different changes before that. (Thank you for that insight Bradford and bless you).
Yes, an older thread, to which I recently posted a question about the sources of using upper and lower nuclear hexagrams - which have now grown to a total of 5 nuclear hexgrams, and Kevin's post was one of the wide-ranging responses ....Just noticed this is a really old thread iamsgirl started last year
My surprise and perlexedness was that the two of these nuclear Hexagrams seemed to duplicate the roles of the cast and resulting hexagram.Unless I have misunderstood Mykey.
When I first read that, I was a bit perplexed by what you meant, but I didn't think it was central to the questions I had about the nuclear trigrams and hexagrams, so I didn't give it much thought.
Looking at it now, my sense is you might be saying that the resulting hexgrams is not pointing to a future outcome, but is instead showing a 'direction of change' (and correct me if I'm incorrectly applying meaning to what you said).
I also read that in Hatcher, and what I took from it is the resulting hex. not saying 'in the future you will end up at the south pole' but something more along the lines of 'look in that direction - the 'direction' being the meaning of the resultant hexgram. This has lead me to consider the resulting hexgram as a suggested attitude or approach - maybe an 'inner direction' if you will.
So, ... the resulting hexgrams is not the future, but it might be a suggested attitude or approach for your present situation, that could affect your future ....
But, as to how you mean it or meant it here .... ?
all the best .....
ChucklesI'm half kidding Kevin....with the shock. Yes very much aware that the resulting hexagram was seen as the outcome because that's what most newbies here still think
Ah that is what you were talking about
Sorry to come back at you twice, I'm tired. It's been a busy day.When I first read that, I was a bit perplexed by what you meant, but I didn't think it was central to the questions I had about the nuclear trigrams and hexagrams, so I didn't give it much thought.
Looking at it now, my sense is you might be saying that the resulting hexgrams is not pointing to a future outcome, but is instead showing a 'direction of change' (and correct me if I'm incorrectly applying meaning to what you said).
I also read that in Hatcher, and what I took from it is the resulting hex. not saying 'in the future you will end up at the south pole' but something more along the lines of 'look in that direction - the 'direction' being the meaning of the resultant hexgram. This has lead me to consider the resulting hexgram as a suggested attitude or approach - maybe an 'inner direction' if you will.
So, ... the resulting hexgrams is not the future, but it might be a suggested attitude or approach for your present situation, that could affect your future ....
But, as to how you mean it or meant it here .... ?
all the best .....
I'm not quite sure what you mean here, but that doesn't matter. I trust that your way of working with the Yi works for you. I am glad Harmen created his video - it answered my original question and I think cleared up a few points for other people as well.I would follow the upper lower trigram convention of Upper trigram for outer world and inner trigram for inner world. I would also ponder the direction of flow between t he two Hexagrams as well as trying to see of the resulting hexagram was setting a context for the cast hexagram.
Yes, I get that part. And it's something Bradford Hatcher and I think others have talked about.Reference Harmen's upper trigram / lower trigram representing outer world inner world
Kevin,Why should me not currently using this approach make my thoughts invalid? Have I misunderstood you?
Ah, even back in 2007, Harmen was talking trigrams (and the nuclear and surrounding nuclear trigrams .... )Don't hate me, I love you all, still...
Yes, (or do I mean No?) you are wrong. If you look back at post #13, I started the lastest round in this thread by asking about the origins/authors/etc. of two of the Nuclear Hexagrams (which some people were calling the 'upper' and 'lower' nuclear hexgrams, but I was referring to them as the 'other' ones .... )correct me if I'm wrong, that you take some issue with his interpretation and conclusions ....
As to Harmen, I just finished taking an 8-week online course with him about using trigrams, and I'm planning to take another 8-week course with him about the text of the Yi. I have posted both of these in the Yi News section. I really like his way of approaching - and teaching - the Yi!
So, no, I do not "take some issue with his interpretation and conclusions" or yes, I do really appreciate his interpretation and conclusions.
No worries. I do that too I'm afraid. I think it comes from my work years (now retired since Dec.) where I'd have to look through dozens of emails each day ... and I don't think the internet nor a computer screen has added to thoughtful or careful reflection - so all is forgiven!I do tend to read fast and between the lines
For example, if I were to start to ramble on about all the ways I use nuclear hexgrams - when in fact I don't use them, and I've told people I don't use them - and maybe I've said I don't even like them! - I imagine that would be confusing for some people, and someone might legitimately ask, 'hey, why are you talking about using nuclear trigrams when you don't use them (at least not anymore) and you don't even like them'? That seems like an entirely appropriate question for someone to ask.
It would be a different matter however, if I started by saying: 'I used to use nuclear hexagrams, and I don't anymore, but when I did ...." .... Or, 'I don't use them and I don't really like them, but here's my understanding of how they are used ...."
Okay, so I will start by apologizing for being dense here - and I'll try to be more specific.However I think they do tell us a lot about the flow of change through the sequence.
Kevin, I went back and reread what you said above, and I feel I need to specifically respond to these two comments.1) As for trusting it works for me? Where are you Comming from?
2) And ... I'm glad my response is of little concern to you.
Indeed you could.
Gmulii, out of interest, are moving lines particularly important in Wen Wang Gua? (Harmen mentioned there are the seeds of some WWG ideas in the Shifa manuscript, which is definitely not the Yi, so I'm wondering whether it has quite independent roots and just got 'grafted' onto the Yijing later, as it was the only surviving hexagram-tree.)
Are you aware that traditionally in the West the resulting hexagram was seen as the outcome? I think it was Stephen (in the late 90's I think) who first voiced the context perspective as something that could occur.
Quite awhile ago, in another thread, someone posted something about how the 'Chinese' use or see the I Ching. I questioned them about this notion of lumping people into one group and then ascribing certain ways of thinking or being to that entire group. I think that's called being prejudice, e.g. "Jews (or Blacks, or Asians, or White people etc.) all do or all act like this ... "These is one of those things where the classical point of view is far, far apart from the point of view of most professional practitioners in the East I'm aware of.
Yes, we must never try to drag people incensoriously into the light as we see it.These is one of those things where the classical point of view is far, far apart from the point of view of most professional practitioners in the East I'm aware of.
Its also one of the topics I try to stay away from here and I'm doing it for a while now. People with enough interest for another point of view to what the hexagrams actually are will search and likely will find with time... Not our place to give too much away when no one wants or needs it yet, even more so when the resistance to new points of view are so strong(or old points of view that may have been missed along the way, for some reason).
Quite awhile ago, in another thread, someone posted something about how the 'Chinese' use or see the I Ching. I questioned them about this notion of lumping people into one group and then ascribing certain ways of thinking or being to that entire group. I think that's called being prejudice, e.g. "Jews (or Blacks, or Asians, or White people etc.) all do or all act like this ... "
Many of use here in the 'West' may approach the Yi in different ways than what we might call a 'classical point of view' - which as you describe it, is in the realm of the East (e.g. China, and perhaps other Asian countries where it is common practice to use the Yi.)
And even setting aside this idea of 'a classical point of view', there are ways of using the Yi that are more well known and more in use in some Asian countries than they are here in the West (e.g. the US, Europe, Canada, the Americas ... )
However, I don't think there are clear lines or boundaries around these different approaches or ways of using the Yi - just like there are no clear boundaries about the depth of people's understanding about the Yi. There are, for example, quite a few 'western' scholars who have done great work at exploring and uncovering the Yi's use and meanings, sometimes in ways that some 'Chinese scholars' may not be. It more a question of intererst and intelligence, and less one of race, or ethnicity or country of origin.
And after looking at Harmen's video about the sources and uses of the nuclear hexgrams, it seems clear to me that there is really no concensus among Asian or Chinese scholars or practioners about how the Yi was used, or should be used or what it means.
One of the key take-aways from the video is that there were (or are) people in China who applied questionable techniques or 'pretzel (twisted) logic' to the Yi, and there are/were others of these 'esteemed scholars' who said, 'no, you are just going too far'.
all the best ....
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).