Nuclear hexagrams

[kevin]

Thank you twice over.

You are correct. I was confusing his blocking trigram with the nuclear trigram. (I've been watching his Youtube Videos and enjoying them immensely). I use trigrams a little differently to him. For example I haven't used the negative images of a trigram systematically, but it does make so much sense. Also, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that the changed trigrams indicate the 'repair' needed in order to return to the situation as represented in the cast trigrams. If I have understood him properly. For me that time is already past or passing and the changing lines are about moving forward through the change. I'm still working from his Youtube videos here.

And,

"the nuclear trigrams are additional information, or aspects of the reading that I can apply to the situation, or issue or question at hand. They are extra - which for me means I'd look to the 'main' or primary trigrams and moving lines first to understand the Yi's response." Yes, that is how I might see them, but I don't make use of them.

And, the second thank you is for pointing out his course. Though I have worked with trigram images for twenty or so years I suspect I would benefit greatly from attending that. I have now subscribed to the September classes.

Best to you.

 

[hilary]

The nuclear hexagrams which go beyond 234, 345 seem to be a recent thing with no pedigree.

Yes, as far as I know you're right. I think they're an example of one of those things in Yi-land that were simultaneously 'discovered' by more than one person. Harmen actually made a video about a Dutch author who found them, and how they were previously described by a Chinese author, and I can't find this video for the life of me, so maybe it was a private one...? I first heard about them thanks to people here, who learned them from Allan Anderson.

Why did the Chinese of old not use them? After all they would have been aware of many of these dimensions.

Who knows? The Yijing is vast and multi-dimensional, and we're learning more all the time about its language, how it speaks and creates meaning. Is there a cut-off date after which these discoveries are not allowed?

Also who says that these additional nuclear hexagrams mean anything particular at all?

Oh, people who've used them in readings. At least, that's the only authority that would interest me.

...
A basic reading encapsulates a tremendous depth and breadth of metaphoric information if we focus on it. By basic I refer to the trigrams, their interaction, changing trigrams (or lines if that is your style) with resulting trigrams, or again hexagrams if you prefer. Trying to get additional depth by extending it through too many, and perhaps unfounded, algorithms is to risk both to loose the focus of what the reading is saying and to go down a 'pattern' street which may well not have any true meaning at all, but which also often extend beyond the reading into the realm of the greater patterning of Yijing.

The risk of loss of focus is real, yes. It's important to go slowly, add one tool at a time, learn what it represents, use it with a whole lot of your own readings and get a feel for where it fits in - and never forget that it is not the answer.

So for example: hexagram 27 Jaws is in the position in the pair of a creative or inspiring Yang hexagram. It's nuclear hexagram is Kun. Is Kun feeding it 'manifestation / nourishing / making real' energy so that 27 is not solely an idea/inspiration, but the representation image of the powerful processing change it represents.

How could Kun be a hidden potential of Jaws / Yi? What would it manifest which is not already taking place? Are we actually looking under the bonnet at the engine rather than focusing on the journey?

Sometimes it is a good idea to know what kind of vehicle you're riding in . As for how Earth is the hidden core of Jaws... well, my idea of the 'true' nuclear hexagram is that it's something the cast hexagram is manifesting/ working out in the real world. The relationship here seems embarrassingly simple: being fed is an effect of having fields. (You know I am always in favour of being as simple-minded about readings as possible.)

I find working with the trigram imagery alone is quite sufficient. I must admit I do look at the hexagram name and King Wen's Judgements. Though both can be distractions.

Yes... I've seen, thanks to Harmen, how it is possible to produce quite a complex, in-depth reading from trigrams (and assorted related lists and tools) without ever referring to the words of the Yi. As a way of reflection, it's undoubtedly fruitful. But the real miracle of the Yi for me is in the relationship of structure and words.

Maybe it's a bit like 'cello playing. If I practise right-hand (bowing) technique for long enough, it'll improve and transform the sound - very exciting! Then if I try to think about my left hand (vibrato, fingerings, shifts, tuning…) at the same time, it's definitely a 'distraction' from the bow. But all the same, I should probably not concentrate on articulation and forget about playing in tune. I'd be a better 'cellist if I could keep both arms in mind at once, and even co-ordinate the two occasionally.

 

[my_key]

Hi Kevin
My method entails working mainly through the text of the hexagrams, changing lines and the nuclear with the imagery of the trigrams being added in towards the end of my reflections. The Trigrams are not my 'go to' guys for a reading. So I'm coming at this from a different place than you and Freedda

My words around the 3 nuclear hexagrams are taken from scribbled notes on a loose piece of paper in my 'interesting offshoots' Yijing folder. When I made them and where they are from I have no recollection. So mostly anything I say on the matter are my own virginal explorations which I'm making up as I go along.

The cast hexagram is usually seen as the current situation, 'as encountered' and the relating hexagram is usually seen as the direction of change. As such we may never arrive at the resulting hexagram. Other events may create different changes before that. (Thank you for that insight Bradford and bless you).

How can there be two expressions of each of these? Have I misunderstood?

Here's my take on things.
The cast hexagram has an archetypal quality to it. As do the trigrams, for that matter. The primary hexagram is filled by lines of energy appropriate to the moment of the cast formed in response to the shape of the question. The relating hexagram represents how the querant is related to the matter enquired about, as presented by the primary hexagram. For me it represents more than just a direction of change. I view this hexagram more like' swimming in a sea of' as it could be future potential, desired outcome, a past experience influencing the present etc etc, It represents something that is a strong connection to or a strong influencer of the primary message.

So for me I can make an easier allowance around the term 'situation encountered.

By reducing the number of algorithms I use I find I get much clearer readings. I guess it's a bit like stopping to ask someone directions. If they give too much detail I won't be able to hold it all in my head (Heng - fix it) and the key information can get lost in the detail.

Additionally, historically I have had a tendency to try to look up too much and so forget that what is taking place is primarily the art of divination. Again for me, no amount of data could ever replace the emerging insights as I turn the images in my imagining and cognitive minds.

The method any of us adopt is a function of where we get the best 'emerging insights'. I agree that we can over complicate things by trying to squeeze that last ounce of meaning from a method that doesn't fully resonate with us. Leading in the worst case to paralysis by analysis.

I work on first getting a basic understanding and then seeing if my meaning / understanding is enhanced through adding another layer or whether it makes it foggier. A bit like eyesight tests when the optician adds and turns a single lense in front of the already established prescription. "Is it clearer like this, like this (turning the lense) or clearer if I take it away?"

There is also the law of diminishing returns that applies as we venture further into the spiritual energetics of the Yi. My original idea that the lower, middle and upper hexagrams are 'a behind the scenes stepwise thing within the over-arching process' of the primary hexagram still stands for me. My guess is that the nuclears work on a different , more subtle dimensional level than the primary hexagrams or the upper and lower trigrams that form the primary hexagram. They are formed through an increasingly complex combination of factors, less well seen, hidden away, in the relationship of earth, man and heaven.

Lower Nuclear hexagram 'works' in the primary hexagram the realm of Line 1 - 4 ( Earth of Earth to Earth of Man)
Middle Nuclear hexagram 'works' in the primary hexagram the realm of Line 2 - 5 ( Man of Earth to Man of Heaven)
Upper Nuclear hexagram 'works' in the primary hexagram the realm of Line 3 - 6 ( Heaven of Man to Heaven of Heaven)

They pull the strings, if you like, of the
Primary Hexagram as it 'works' in the realm of Line 1 - 6 ( Earth of Earth to Heaven of Heaven)

Maybe that's why there may well be two aspects ( or maybe even more !!!!!) of the 'situation encountered'.

 

[kevin]

Putting this up as a discussion piece:
Taking Hex 3 as an example as it's the first hex to give some differentiation.
Hex 3 - Difficulties in the beginning
Growing pains, initial resistances encountered

1) 123 234 = lower nuclear and represents the situation as encountered
Hex 24 - Returning.
Stepping into Hex 3, the 'situation encountered' is one calling for renewal, reform, rejuvenation etc.

2) 234 345 = middle nuclear (the normal nuclear) and represents the challenge driving the current situation
Hex 23 - Stripping Away.
The 'challenge' of Hex 3 is to allow the forces of decay and disintegration to prevail.

3) 345 456 = upper nuclear and indicates what you are moving towards rather than your reaction against
Hex 39 - Obstruction
Growing out of Hex 3 requires responding to (moving towards) difficulties rather that reacting against / ignoring them.

So a fit of sorts! ........ at least for one trial.

Gosh! There do appear to be traditional routes to these nuclear hexagrams and then some.

In your previous post you cited Ritsema Sabbani. As you say on pp.24-25 they refer to the nuclear hexagram as the 'Counter Hexagram' and say that it attracted the interest of the Han Scholars. However they go on to say that, "There is no traditional consensus on the interpretation of nuclear hexagrams."

Chung Wu, "The Essentials of the Yijing." is quite frustrating on the subject. (He is classically trained in China). On pp. li he says that the Han Scholars gave consideration to Derived Hexagrams (Nuclear to us) and they developed 5 different procedures which generated five different kinds on Nuclear Hexagrams. These are

123,234
234,345
345,456
123, 345
234,456

Of these he says:

"Interpretation of certain passages in the Jing proper can often be made more explicable with the aid of the derivation. We that the authors of the Jing proper had it in their minds when wrote these passages, though without saying so. If this inference is correct the Han scholars did not really invent the derivation and they simply discovered it. The reader will see how the derivation is used to decipher messages when we study the Jing proper."

I think 'Jing proper' refers to the hexagram texts. I was unable to find any mention of them in his Hexagram texts, but I only looked at four different hexagrams. So it may be that he doesn't draw on the a lot.

However at the end of his book he includes a, "Treatise on the sequence of the Hexagrams. Xu Gua, the Ninth Wing." He explains that the words Miscellaneous often used as an English translation of the titel is an error and that a better translation would be Non-Sequence. He shows how the hexagrams in this wing are organised both by Nuclear Hexagrams and Antiparrallel Hexagrams. These are those pairs where each is the other rotated through 180 degrees.

Hua-Ching Ni "The Book of Changes" States that the nuclear hexagram 234,345 is a representation of the, "Inner influence of the hexagram and lend different meaning to the lines." Echoes of Chung Wu?

In summary they do seem to have a historical root, but the actual meanings seem uncertain.

This is no surprise as Richard Smith in his 'Fathoming the Cosmos' illustrates very well how different ways of using the Yijing came and went and came again throughout it's long history under the Confucian scholars. Even the idea of lines changing went out of fashion at times.

Thanks for your input which made me dig deeper. I suppose the old law of 'do what works for you' is the best answer.

Be well.

 

[Freedda]

... I'm uncomfortable with the idea that the changed trigrams indicate the 'repair' needed (for) ... the cast trigrams .... For me that time is already past or passing and the changing lines are about moving forward through the change.

I don't want to be the Harmen Whisper here, but my sense of the 'moving to trigrams' is that they help restore balance to the primary hexagram/trigrams. Lately I've started to think of them - and any of the other trigrams I might decide to work with - as 'allies', which have different uses and functions.

However, I don't apply a sense of time, or of time passing, as you describe it (and that goes for when I'm working with the text or the imagery). Sometimes, a particular reading might give me a sense of a journey (maybe over time), but that's on a case-by-case basis.

Based on what you describe, one image that comes to mind is of a poor ol' primary hexgram (and its trigrams) that time has left behind. Here it is, standing there alone on the dock, as the Resultant (changing to, or moving to) hexgram heads off on an Alaskan cruise, and the last time we see it, it's having cocktails and playing poker in the ship's casino ....

... Obviously this is a product of my over-active imagination, but the point is, I don't see a reading with changing lines (resulting hexgrams or trigrams) as any indiction that we've 'moved on' from the main hexgram. As LiSe Heyboer and I'm sure others have said, the hexgram we get is the one we get (to work with).

I have now subscribed to the September classes.

That's a good thing. One suggestion I have is you might consider setting your own 'method' on the back burner for a bit; this might help you give what Harmen shares your full consideration, without immediately jumping to comparrions. You may end up liking or disliking what he says, but at least you've given it a fair shake.

... it is possible to produce quite a complex, in-depth reading from trigrams .... But the real miracle of the Yi for me is in the relationship of structure and words.

For me the main thing is, does any particular method produce an 'in-depth' reading, which for me also means that it's helpful, useful, understandable and accessible.

But I can also read into what you said a kind of hierarchy: that the trigrams only give us an 'in-depth' reading, whereas bringing in the oracle's text gives us a 'miraculous' reading. I admit that I might be assuming a whole lot that you don't mean; or, perhaps what you are describing here is what works for you, which is fine - but it may not necessarily be how someone else sees it.

"Imagine if you will" someone posing a question to the Yi, and they magically get (at least) three different responses: one based on the tigrams and imagery, the second based on the text, and the last based on a synthesis of both of the above.

I can imaging our querent/questioner's response to each of these: one: "what the tirgrams said made so much sense and was really helpful for me"; two, "what the text said made so much sense and was really helpful"; and three, "what the images and the text said made so much ...."

And being a magical reading, we can now rewind, so now the person's response to each 'approach' is: "wow, that was so much information, I don't know what it means or how to use it ...." Or rewind again: "man, nothing that you said (via the images, or text, or images and text) made any sense to me ...."

So, in the case of our magical Yi reading, I can not conclude that any of these approaches or methods is better .... which leads me back to the criteria: does any particluar method or way(s) of working with the Yi give me a response which is useful, helpful, understandable and accessible?

all the best ....

 

[kevin]

I don't want to be the Harmen Whisper here, but my sense of the 'moving to trigrams' is that they help restore balance to the primary hexagram/trigrams. Lately I've started to think of them - and any of the other trigrams I might decide to work with - as 'allies', which have different uses and functions.

There seems to be a lot more than has come across in his videos. That's good

However, I don't apply a sense of time, or of time passing, as you describe it (and that goes for when I'm working with the text or the imagery). Sometimes, a particular reading might give me a sense of a journey (maybe over time), but that's on a case-by-case basis.

Hm, I think I must have explained myself poorly. I think vectors. Which sounds much as the same sort of thing you describe. They can be very short!

Based on what you describe, one image that comes to mind is of a poor ol' primary hexgram (and its trigrams) that time has left behind. Here it is, standing there alone on the dock, as the Resultant (changing to, or moving to) hexgram heads off on an Alaskan cruise, and the last time we see it, it's having cocktails and playing poker in the ship's casino ....

... Obviously this is a product of my over-active imagination, but the point is, I don't see a reading with changing lines (resulting hexgrams or trigrams) as any indiction that we've 'moved on' from the main hexgram. As LiSe Heyboer and I'm sure others have said, the hexgram we get is the one we get (to work with).

Not at all. I have noticed lines sitting all peaceably like in a trigram or a hexagram and they suddenly turn on you. Pesky things. No I don't abandon the home base.

That's a good thing. One suggestion I have is you might consider setting your own 'method' on the back burner for a bit; this might help you give what Harmen shares your full consideration, without immediately jumping to comparisons. You may end up liking or disliking what he says, but at least you've given it a fair shake.

Yes, I won't pay the piper and then take my own poor compositions along. He is a well thought through thinker.

Be well and thank you for your thoughts.

 

[hilary]

For me the main thing is, does any particular method produce an 'in-depth' reading, which for me also means that it's helpful, useful, understandable and accessible.

But I can also read into what you said a kind of hierarchy: that the trigrams only give us an 'in-depth' reading, whereas bringing in the oracle's text gives us a 'miraculous' reading. I admit that I might be assuming a whole lot that you don't mean; or, perhaps what you are describing here is what works for you, which is fine - but it may not necessarily be how someone else sees it.

"Imagine if you will" someone posing a question to the Yi, and they magically get (at least) three different responses: one based on the tigrams and imagery, the second based on the text, and the last based on a synthesis of both of the above.

I can imaging our querent/questioner's response to each of these: one: "what the tirgrams said made so much sense and was really helpful for me"; two, "what the text said made so much sense and was really helpful"; and three, "what the images and the text said made so much ...."

And being a magical reading, we can now rewind, so now the person's response to each 'approach' is: "wow, that was so much information, I don't know what it means or how to use it ...." Or rewind again: "man, nothing that you said (via the images, or text, or images and text) made any sense to me ...."

So, in the case of our magical Yi reading, I can not conclude that any of these approaches or methods is better .... which leads me back to the criteria: does any particluar method or way(s) of working with the Yi give me a response which is useful, helpful, understandable and accessible?

Very good criterion - and the Yijing is not the only oracle that can meet it.

 

[kevin]

Yes, as far as I know you're right. I think they're an example of one of those things in Yi-land that were simultaneously 'discovered' by more than one person. Harmen actually made a video about a Dutch author who found them, and how they were previously described by a Chinese author, and I can't find this video for the life of me, so maybe it was a private one...? I first heard about them thanks to people here, who learned them from Allan Anderson.

I've since read (Chung Wu: The Essentials of the Yijing and other authors), he says that all five of the nuclear hexagrams were discussed by Han Scholars. It seems no consensus was reached about any of their meanings except that they appear to surface as a possible explanation for various statements in the extended hexagram texts. People still ascribe various meanings to 234,456 which range from it representing a counter force to the hexagram to it being a hidden meaning or potential held withing it. So like many Yijing things it probably comes down to the user's experience.

Who knows? The Yijing is vast and multi-dimensional, and we're learning more all the time about its language, how it speaks and creates meaning. Is there a cut-off date after which these discoveries are not allowed?
Oh, people who've used them in readings. At least, that's the only authority that would interest me.

Ah, I must have explained myself poorly. This reference, unexplained, is that of value and meaning being gained through a consensus being reached through historical acceptance and usage. Though even then that gives no certainty of veracity.

I think you refer to the consensus of current usage? Just as valuable, I agree.

The risk of loss of focus is real, yes. It's important to go slowly, add one tool at a time, learn what it represents, use it with a whole lot of your own readings and get a feel for where it fits in - and never forget that it is not the answer.

Even then too many tools used at once can overwhelm the clarity of the reading. I sometimes think that just as there is a stage where some users buy more and more versions of the Yijing in order to gain clarity, there is sometimes a tendency, for some, to try to add depth by adding more and more tools. I am of the less is more school. This in no way means using a range of tools are wrong in anyway.

Sometimes it is a good idea to know what kind of vehicle you're riding in

Aha, yes, understanding the greater matrix is helpful, but my context was lost. One of the themes in my posts in this thread, is that there are seemingly an infinite number of patterns in the KW sequence. Some are more useful for a divination than others. Used to extensively, or extending too far one can follow a path well beyond the reading at hand. Thus, for myself, I prefer a stance of restraint when considering a reading. But, as I have said right the way through my posts, everyone makes different choices and if it works for them, well, fine.

As for how Earth is the hidden core of Jaws... well, my idea of the 'true' nuclear hexagram is that it's something the cast hexagram is manifesting/ working out in the real world. The relationship here seems embarrassingly simple: being fed is an effect of having fields. (You know I am always in favour of being as simple-minded about readings as possible.)

Simple is always good. There are other simple pertinent images that would work for Kun here too. Diviners choice. We differ only slightly in our view of what 1234,4345. Others differ more. S'fine by me.

Maybe it's a bit like 'cello playing. If I practise right-hand (bowing) technique for long enough, it'll improve and transform the sound - very exciting! Then if I try to think about my left hand (vibrato, fingerings, shifts, tuning…) at the same time, it's definitely a 'distraction' from the bow. But all the same, I should probably not concentrate on articulation and forget about playing in tune. I'd be a better 'cellist if I could keep both arms in mind at once, and even co-ordinate the two occasionally.

Nicely put, but I don't think I'm playing the piano with one hand. Just using one vehicle rather than having two. Though at times it does look more like something from Mad Max.

I gradually reduced my reliance on the received text (Wilhelm etc) years ago, preferring something less redacted to Confucian moral guidance. That was my choice and others choose differently.

Anyway

As always

Be well[/QUOTE]

 

[Freedda]

... and the Yijing is not the only oracle that can meet it.

Yes. Quite a while ago I had a friend who had been in the Peace Corp in Africa and he had studied with a healer there who did divination using rocks - which he carried around in a rusty coffee can. My friend said he did a session with him and the man gave him useful information that helped my friend to heal (from whatever it was he asked about).

Here's a video (38 min. long) where a Tibetan monk discusses two Tibetan divination systems, one using threads and the other using 42 stones (I 'converted' his 42-stone method into a way of casting for the Yi; it works of course, but I don't use it much).

http://ikgf.fau.de/videos/documentaries/practice-of-divination-rinpoche.shtml

I haven't watched it for a while, but I think that towards the end of the video, a Tibetan gentleman ask about the upcoming winter, and and the monk performs the divination and says, "this winter will not be so bad, and most of the people and animals will survive" (or something like that). On the one hand, that seems a bit vague, but on the other, maybe that's exactly what the gentleman wanted and/or needed to hear.

thanks ....

 

[hilary]

Thanks for the link!

I would say that if we ignore the text, we're consulting some oracle that is not the Yijing. (The main difference between the Yijing and, say, the Guicang is that they put different words to the hexagrams.) But also, this doesn't particularly matter so long as it helps.

I've since read (Chung Wu: The Essentials of the Yijing and other authors), he says that all five of the nuclear hexagrams were discussed by Han Scholars.

That’s exciting, as I've never seen that elsewhere. I've always heard that nuclear trigrams were known early on, but they weren't put together into hexagrams. Huh.

This reference, unexplained, is that of value and meaning being gained through a consensus being reached through historical acceptance and usage. Though even then that gives no certainty of veracity.

I think you refer to the consensus of current usage? Just as valuable, I agree.

Yes... though current usage of a lot of tools has yet to approach anything like consensus. It might help to have another century or two of experience... but failing that, I think personal experience is the best guide.

Even then too many tools used at once can overwhelm the clarity of the reading. I sometimes think that just as there is a stage where some users buy more and more versions of the Yijing in order to gain clarity, there is sometimes a tendency, for some, to try to add depth by adding more and more tools.

Yes - or to jump round more and more tools when the original reading is confusing, resulting in endless tail-chasing and a kind of dry alienation from the awareness of being spoken to. But writing about this is a bit of a tightrope, because clarifying and answering questions about readings is what all these extras are for. I'm not sure how to stay on this tightrope, but maybe knowing what questions they answer - and constantly, unceasingly, referring back to the actual reading - makes the difference.

One of the themes in my posts in this thread, is that there are seemingly an infinite number of patterns in the KW sequence. Some are more useful for a divination than others.

Also very true! To take the most obvious thing about nuclears - it's a beautiful, elegant thing that all the hexagrams resolve to either 1, 2 or the endless loop 63/64, at the beginning and end of the Sequence. And I've never found a use in readings for that. (Nuclears as a connection between readings, though, and a way Yi develops the conversation from one reading to the next - definitely helpful.)

...our view of what 1234,4345.

... ?

 

[Freedda]

I would say that if we ignore the text, we're consulting some oracle that is not the Yijing.

I suppose then that I'll just have to be content with not using the Yijing.

 

[hilary]

Well, you don't have to be, but you could be. Most people are

 

[Freedda]

Also, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that the changed trigrams indicate the 'repair' needed in order to return to the situation as represented in the cast trigrams .... For me that time is already past or passing and the changing lines are about moving forward through the change.

Kevin, you later said that you might not have explained this clearly and you then mentioned 'vectors' but I really don't understand how you're using the word 'vector' or what you're applying it to?

From what i can tell the word has a variety of meaning in mathematics, and I also found this:

Vector: an agent that carries and transmits an infectious pathogen into another living organism; a disease vector ...

Vector (molecular biology), a DNA molecule used as a vehicle to artificially carry foreign genetic material into another cell ....

So, I wondet, how are you using it and what specifically are you applying it to? This will help me to both understand what you're saying AND to know if I've stepped into a Star Trek episode or the CDC?

Best .....

 

[hilary]

Aha - new video from Harmen on the history of nuclear hexagrams:

(If you view this on Youtube you'll find a handy table of contents.)

 

[Freedda]

Aha - new video from Harmen on the history of nuclear hexagrams:

Thanks for posting. I watched it - it is interesting, informative, and well worth watching again.

Chung Wu, "The Essentials of the Yijing." (He is classically trained in China). On pp. li he says that the Han Scholars gave consideration to Derived Hexagrams (Nuclear to us) and they developed five different procedures which generated five different kinds on Nuclear Hexagrams. These are:

123,234 - 234,345 - 345,456 - 123, 345 - 234,456

Of these he says: "Interpretation of certain passages in the Jing proper can often be made more explicable with the aid of the derivation. .... the authors of the Jing proper had it in their minds when (they) wrote these passages, though without saying so. If this inference is correct, the Han scholars did not really invent the derivation and they simply discovered it. The reader will see how the derivation is used to decipher messages when we study the Jing proper ....

Regarding using these 'other' hexgrams to make the Yi's line text "more explicable" (understandable?) ... in the video, Harmen shows a few examples of Chinese scholars doing this with trigrams (not hexagrams) - and for me, their twists and turns of logic and mixing different sysmbols gives new meaning to the word 'twisted' - or what we might call 'pretzel logic'.

Referring back to Harmen's video, as I understand it, he found that:

* Chinese scholars came up with these five nuclear hexgrams at a much later period (very roughly, 1,600 to 2,100 years after the Zhouyi (oracle and line statements) was presented to us (or written).

* Regardless of when these 'other' hexagrams were first mentioned, Harmen could find no explaination of how they were used - or even if they were used.

* Instead, he did find examples where 'nuclear' trigrams (not hexgrams), and other 'derivations' from the primary hexgrams (ex. inverted hexgrams and their tirgrams, etc.) were used to explain the Yi's line text. But again, he did not find that the 'nuclear' hexagrams were used for this.

* And of particular interest to me, he also said that from this same group of esteemed, and highly regarded (e.g 'classically trained') Chinese scholars there are also those who said "enough is enough!"

best ....

 

[Freedda]

I would say that if we ignore the text, we're consulting some oracle that is not the Yijing.

Thinking a bit more about what you said here ... my first reaction was to want to come back with reasons or arguments why working with just the images/trigrams is part of the Yi.

(And just FYI, you know that I do at times make use of the text of the Yi.)

But I thought about what you said, and at first I came to, 'hmm, well according to Hilary's definition she thinks I'm not really using the Yi, and well, I can live with that .... And I think that what's more important for me is ....

... that whatever divination 'method' I'm using, that it is helpful, useful, understandable and accessible - and that it is offering something that the querent needs to hear or can make use of.

... and it seems we have agreement on this important point.

But the rub for me is this: in this and other threads you describe the world of the Yi (which for me includes its study and use) as 'vast and multi-dimensional' - your words. But at the same time, you then apply rules and limits to this vast world, and define what it is - and what it is not - which for me feels like the antithisis of 'vast and multi-dimensional'.

regards .....

 

[Gmulii]

Thinking a bit more about what you said here ... my first reaction was to want to come back with reasons or arguments why working with just the images/trigrams is part of the Yi.

(And just FYI, you know that I do at times make use of the text of the Yi.)

But I thought about what you said, and at first I came to, 'hmm, well according to Hilary's definition she thinks I'm not really using the Yi, and well, I can live with that .... And I think that what's more important for me is ....
... and it seems we have agreement on this important point.

But the rub for me is this: in this and other threads you describe the world of the Yi (which for me includes its study and use) as 'vast and multi-dimensional' - your words. But at the same time, you then apply rules and limits to this vast world, and define what it is - and what it is not - which for me feels like the antithisis of 'vast and multi-dimensional'.

regards .....

Yi Jing is style of reading hexagrams, its not all ways of working with change. : )

I will join in here, as I was thinking on that same question some time ago, as my use of the text is very different then what is usually done in the west.
So do I work with Yi Jing style of reading then...

If we translate Yi Jing as "classic of changes", then there are 2 parts Changes and Classic.

The important part here, becomes is this "classic" only the Zhouyi, or could it include other texts... In any case, many of the styles of reading the changes, are passed in lineages as its considered a craft, so they are not recorded in any book.

In that sense, a lot of the ways of working with the changes(that would be the Yi from Yi Jing), are still very much ways of working with changes. Yet they aren't participating in the "Jing" requirement, as they aren't using the "classic" part.
So they have other names, be that Plum Blossom, Liu Yao or many others, all of these still work with Change, yet it doesn't focuses on a text as much as Yi Jing does.


So we can say all these is part of working with Yi if we view Yi as representing the changes.
But is it connected to a classic text and is every classic text enough or it should be the zhouyi?

I think it should be the zhouyi to count for Yi Jing.
One pointer to that - if you view our divination sections in the Five Arts forums we can see:

Fortune stick interpretation,
Tai Yi Shen Shu (TYSS),
Qi Men Dun Jia ,
Da Liu Ren (DLR),
Yi Jing Zhan Bu (YJZB),
Liu Yao Yi Gua (LYYG),
Mei Hua Yi Shu (MHYS),
Date Selection,
Other Arts of Divination

While that may be unusual at first, the important thing that is what we look at here is that Yi Jing/I Ching is actually here:

Yi Jing Zhan Bu (YJZB),

And indeed in there we have all stuff related to the text.

One of the reasons I try to stick in Exploring Divination and Open Space forums, as the forum is related to Yi Jing, and that is a specific style of reading the Hexagrams, its not all ways of studying the changes in the Five Arts.

In that sense- sure, you work with and study Yi. Yet that doesn't mean your style of reading is specifically Yi Jing, as that would need a classic text and most likely it may need specifically the zhouyi. : )

 

[kevin]

A second Aha

At 35:30 (starts a little before that) Harmen gives an 'ancient' example of Patterns of Change being used.

For me they work, but I have always been a little suspicious of them.

What a marvellous video.

I'm ending my day with a smile.

 

[Freedda]

At 35:30 (starts a little before that) Harmen gives an 'ancient' example of Patterns of Change being use

I don't remember Harmen using the yin/yang 'patterns of change' as an example, since he is talking about how nuclear trigrams were used to explain or give meaning to the line text. But I will go back and look at again. Besides, the patterns of change generate hexagrams, not trigrams ....?

 

[hilary]

Thinking a bit more about what you said here ... my first reaction was to want to come back with reasons or arguments why working with just the images/trigrams is part of the Yi.

(And just FYI, you know that I do at times make use of the text of the Yi.)

But I thought about what you said, and at first I came to, 'hmm, well according to Hilary's definition she thinks I'm not really using the Yi, and well, I can live with that .... And I think that what's more important for me is ....
... and it seems we have agreement on this important point.

But the rub for me is this: in this and other threads you describe the world of the Yi (which for me includes its study and use) as 'vast and multi-dimensional' - your words. But at the same time, you then apply rules and limits to this vast world, and define what it is - and what it is not - which for me feels like the antithisis of 'vast and multi-dimensional'.

regards .....

I would never say that working with trigrams is not part of the Yi. Obviously. No-one in the history of this debate has ever suggested not looking at trigrams or hexagrams or structure. However, if you work only with trigrams and no text, then there is nothing to say which hexagram oracle you are working with. It might just as well be the Guicang - admittedly most of the text of that one is lost, but that wouldn't matter, would it?

The Zhouyi came into being when some people, for some reason, thought it good to connect texts with hexagram structures. I'm prepared to believe that was a good idea and explore what they created.

 

[kevin]

Kevin, you later said that you might not have explained this clearly and you then mentioned 'vectors' but I really don't understand how you're using the word 'vector' or what you're applying it to?

Ah, I'm using the term in a mathematical sense. I think that was their birth place, but I'm not sure.

For me vectors of change have a direction and a magnitude or length. For me in Change, that is a time value. The longer the vector the longer the time value. Apologies for the lack of clarity.

So, again for me, a changing line indicates a vector to a new point in the change. However as we don't use Yijing with calendars in the West (I believe it is the norm in traditional Chinese divination - certainly in Plum Blossom method) then we do not have a time period from our readings and do not know the length of time involved. I follow Bradford's idea, that it is a direction of travel and other changes may intervene before arrival.

All the best

Kevin

 

[kevin]

I don't remember Harmen using the yin/yang 'patterns of change' as an example, since he is talking about how nuclear trigrams were used to explain or give meaning to the line text. But I will go back and look at again. Besides, the patterns of change generate hexagrams, not trigrams ....?

You'll find it.

He talks in terms of hexagrams rather a lot in the video, I think.

Well, the operation undertaken is described differently, but the result is a Pattern of Change. He operates on Yin and Yang lines rather than purely changing lines.

For me it is illustrative of the extent in which the early Chinese felt they had license to be really rather creative.


All the best.

 

[hilary]

A second Aha

At 35:30 (starts a little before that) Harmen gives an 'ancient' example of Patterns of Change being used.

For me they work, but I have always been a little suspicious of them.

What a marvellous video.

I'm ending my day with a smile.

I think the point there was that 16's the complement of 9, and it was just coincidence that that's the change pattern of the reading Harmen drew.

 

[Freedda]

Okay, sorry I misquoted or misrepresented you. And as to ....

.... there is nothing to say which hexagram oracle you are working with.

I can live with that as well. So, maybe I could say that when I'm not referring to the Yi's text, I'm working with a divination system that is based on 64 combinations of trigrams, which have the quality of having both moving and stable lines - which has a lot in common with - but is not - the Zhouyi ... or thereabouts.

***********

 

[my_key]

Yes that video certainly showed nuclear trigrams rather than hexagrams as being in use back in the early days. They certainly grew adept at making convoluted connections

Good job that Harmen was contacted. Now Freedda has had his query unravelled.

 

[kevin]

Yes - or to jump round more and more tools when the original reading is confusing, resulting in endless tail-chasing and a kind of dry alienation from the awareness of being spoken to. But writing about this is a bit of a tightrope, because clarifying and answering questions about readings is what all these extras are for. I'm not sure how to stay on this tightrope, but maybe knowing what questions they answer - and constantly, unceasingly, referring b

Yes, I agree with you.

Also very true! To take the most obvious thing about nuclears - it's a beautiful, elegant thing that all the hexagrams resolve to either 1, 2 or the endless loop 63/64, at the beginning and end of the Sequence. And I've never found a use in readings for that. (Nuclears as a connection between readings, though, and a way Yi develops the conversation from one reading to the next - definitely helpful.

I've never used them like that. Probably because of a lack of thoroughness

But the elegance! - That is what keeps me coming back.

I would say that if we ignore the text, we're consulting some oracle that is not the Yijing. (The main difference between the Yijing and, say, the Guicang is that they put different words to the hexagrams.) But also, this doesn't particularly matter so long as it helps.

Gosh I've turned that around in my head a bit and I would say, yes, I think you have a strong case.

However were one to ignore the Wings would one cease to be using Yijing?

Then there is a question of which redaction one might choose to use.

I think there is a long and rather interesting pub discussion to be had here.

And, whispering - I don't reject the text. I peak at it from time to time, or at other times merely read it for pleasure. It all depends what I am doing, a reading, study, pleasure. And born of long habit the words echo in my head when I do a reading anyway... Oh, the voices!

Be well

 

[hilary]

Oh dear, is the magic book talking to you again? Not sure there is a treatment for that.

 

[Freedda]

... talks in terms of hexagrams rather a lot in the video ....

Kevin, what I got from the video is:

Harmen shows how nuclear trigrams and other 'aspects' of the Yi (e.g. the trigrams from an inverted hexgram) were used to explain or understand the line text of the zhouyi. And in some of the examples, the way they were used seems to be rather 'creative' or I find even illogical and 'twisted'.

For me, it's as if someone said, 'this line text has the word 'water' in it, so let's see if we can find a way to apply a water trigram to this line (even if we have to be inconsistent and do a lot of twisting and turning to do so')!

As a counter to this sort of 'classic, learned' Yi inquiry, he also quotes a few Chinese sccholars who looked at these practices, and said, 'enought is enough.! Which for me is a key point and one that I might apply to this thread if I wanted to.

He then talks about finding a few 'historic' sources that mention 'nuclear hexgrams' (not trigrams) but he doesn't find any place that describes how these were used or how they are supposed to be used in divination.

For example, he shows a large circle image with the 64 hexgrams on the outer ring, then the 16 possible nuclear hexgrams on the next inside ring, and finally the 4 hexgrams which are the "nuclear hexagrams of the nuclear hexagrams" on the inside ring, but this doesn't explain their meaning or use.

So, the conclusions I come to are:

* trigrams and nuclear trigrams were use historically in divination (and this I think the basis of what Harmen teaches)

* some people also used these nuclear trigrams (and other symbols) to try and explain or understand the line text - but at least some Chinese Yi scholars found this to be inconsistent and a bit of a stretch

* there are historic references to Nuclear Hexagrams, but Harmen could not find an examples or explanation of how they were used (or why).

* Conclusion (I come to): historic use of nuclear trigams in divination, YES; that these were sometimes used in inconsistent and questionable ways, also YES; but nuclear hexgrams being used historically in divination - NO, or at best, not very likely.

But I will listen again as some point to see if i got all that correctly.

all the best ....

 

[hilary]

...So, maybe I could say that when I'm not referring to the Yi's text, I'm working with a divination system that is based on 64 combinations of trigrams, which have the quality of having both moving and stable lines - which has a lot in common with - but is not - the Zhouyi ... or thereabouts.

***********

Indeed you could.

Gmulii, out of interest, are moving lines particularly important in Wen Wang Gua? (Harmen mentioned there are the seeds of some WWG ideas in the Shifa manuscript, which is definitely not the Yi, so I'm wondering whether it has quite independent roots and just got 'grafted' onto the Yijing later, as it was the only surviving hexagram-tree.)

 

[kevin]

Oh dear, is the magic book talking to you again? Not sure there is a treatment for that.

I like my voices. They are my friends