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Nuclear hexagrams

iams girl

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Using nuclear hexagrams to help clarify my readings for quite some time now (full explanation of nuclears here), I've found them very useful. However, recently I noticed a slight twist when I had 50.4.5>57 in a weekly open reading. Here's what I posted about it:

"I was looking at the nuclears last night (44, 43, 38) and they have their basic story, but at the end I found myself saying 'but, I feel soooo exhausted, is there a hex 28 in there somewhere??' And, lo and behold, there it is in 1,2,3, 3,4,5, kind of front and center towards the bottom. Further, towards the top there is hex 14 in 2,3,4, 4,5,6. Now, I don´t know of any process of reading those particular hexagrams within a primary hexagram, but for hex 50, it seems to describe my situation perfectly - exhausted, but also feeling richly blessed in general."

Here are the nuclear hexagrams as presented in the link above (and I love the whole concept):
1,2,3,2,3,4 and 2,3,4,3,4,5 and 3,4,5,4,5,6 (for hex 50: 44, 43, 38)

However, I'm actually finding this alternate nuclear pattern relating better:
1,2,3,3,4,5 and 2,3,4,3,4,5 and 2,3,4,4,5,6 (for hex 50: 28, 43, 14)

Any thoughts about nuclear variations? Is there a better name for the second set of nuclears than my calling them an "alternate nuclear pattern"? Thank you in advance for any comments or advice.
 

Liselle

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@iams girl; Have you seen this thread, where Harmen Mesker taught us a lot about trigrams?

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?23467-Trigrams-With-Harmen

Now nuclear hexagrams are made up of trigrams, but they aren't trigrams, and Harmen wasn't talking about making hexagrams from trigrams.

Also I don't have time to re-read that thread so I don't remember what if anything he said about the trigrams you're using.

But if he did, maybe you could see if his trigram comments help you understand the nuclear hexagrams you're making from them?
 

Trojina

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However, I'm actually finding this alternate nuclear pattern relating better:
1,2,3,3,4,5 and 2,3,4,3,4,5 and 2,3,4,4,5,6 (for hex 50: 28, 43, 14)

Any thoughts about nuclear variations? Is there a better name for the second set of nuclears than my calling them an "alternate nuclear pattern"? Thank you in advance for any comments or advice.
Any advice or comments ? Well I worry you are travelling so far from the answer you lost the actual answer in favour of the alternate nuclear ...not sure if that is your invention ?

I mean it can be interesting to consider nuclear hexagrams as another layer of the reading sometimes but you seem to be almost trying to replace the reading not only with the nuclears but 'alternate nuclears' and I think you may go too far beyond what the reading actually says.

Using nuclear hexagrams to help clarify my readings for quite some time now (full explanation of nuclears here), I've found them very useful. However, recently I noticed a slight twist when I had 50.4.5>57 in a weekly open reading. Here's what I posted about it:

"I was looking at the nuclears last night (44, 43, 38) and they have their basic story, but at the end I found myself saying 'but, I feel soooo exhausted, is there a hex 28 in there somewhere??' And, lo and behold, there it is in 1,2,3, 3,4,5, kind of front and center towards the bottom.
So although you had 50.4.5>57 you went looking for 28 and found it but why not stick with the reading you got ? If your actual reading was 28 you would have cast 28 and okay you managed to find the 28 in there but it just seems a little remote to me.
 
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Liselle

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For what it's worth, a very (very) recent notion on the subject of cast vs. context hexagrams:

Example: I thought I'd made a pretty serious mistake at work and worried I'd lose my job. Asked Yi about it ("Guidance about this incident?") and got a hexagram 17 reading. 17 and its moving lines had good advice, but nothing about my burning question, will I still have a job.

(Granted I didn't ask that - I was trying to avoid a badly-worded question.)

Noticed 48 was the shadow. Aha - the Well, the constant, enduring resource (a.k.a. paycheck), but you might have trouble reaching it, you might break your jug, and so forth.

But since it was the shadow, losing access to the water (paycheck) was exactly the wrong way to think about it.

Outcome: not only didn't I lose my job, I never heard a word about it from anyone. (This was months ago so I feel safe now.)

Since then, I'd been thinking that sometimes the context hexagrams are pretty darn indispensable. My answer had been completely in the shadow, after all.

Yes - but - amended outlook as of a few days ago - remember there wasn't any trouble at work to do with the incident. Yi knew that. It knew my answer better than I did (surprise, surprise). So it gave me the answer I needed in my cast reading, the best advice it had for me, and shuffled the answer to my burning-but-irrelevant question off to the shadow.

Now since I only thought of this a few days ago it's just one example and needs testing. But tentatively I wonder if, when the answer I think I'm looking for seems to be in a context hexagram, it's actually a clue that I'm on a different wavelength from Yi, and maybe I can actually say that to myself ("oh, Yi and I are on different wavelengths here") and then try to understand why and get myself on Yi's wavelength?

Vs. if I recognize what I'm looking for in the cast reading, maybe it means Yi and I are on the same wavelength to start with.
 

iams girl

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Hi Trojina, thank you for your interest and reply. In addition to the basic elements (50, 50.4, 50.5, and 57 in this case), I do also look at the nuclears, trigrams, patterns of change, line placements, etc. for additional perspectives.

For example, I got interested in the patterns of change from your posts and like the way they give a little more information such as the initial standing of things (yang pattern) and advice (yin pattern). Likewise from Hilary's posts, I found the nuclears interesting as the initial encounter/presenting challenge/entry point (lower hexagram), inner work (middle nuclear), and mastery/higher potential (upper nuclear).

So looking at just the nuclear stories element for hex 50 which is my main line of questioning here (and, seems maybe not too many use the nuclears perspective...), I had my (subjective) choice:
Nuclear story: Amidst joys and sorrows (44), focus on your own path (43) to bear with life´s challenges (38).
Nuclear story alternate: I´m exhausted (28), but if I stick to my own path (43), it will bear great rewards (14).

Just sayin', I found the nuclear alternate a better fit, at least this time.
 

iams girl

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Liselle - thank you for your examples and links about nuclears and trigrams. At the risk of my post looking numerically mind-numbing, I agree the nuclears give a lot of useful supporting background information and haven't even gotten into the opposites or contrasting ones, etc.!

Freeda - I'm excited for you and hope you have lots to share when you return!
 

Liselle

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At the risk of my post looking numerically mind-numbing, I agree the nuclears give a lot of useful supporting background information and haven't even gotten into the opposites or contrasting ones, etc.!
It wasn't mind-numbing at all. Forming nuclear hexagrams is the kind of math I can handle lol.

Also, this very recent notion doesn't mean I think there's no value in context hexagrams. I think I think :)ouch:) just that...the placements of things carry more meaning than I thought, maybe? Or something?

What context hexagrams--- let's take my example again. One thing its shadow continues to do for me is let me know Yi heard me. Honestly, a lot of the time I don't feel heard or answered, and I wouldn't by that reading either, if all I looked at was the cast hexagrams. I recognized at the time it was good general advice, but I was also panicking about my livelihood. The shadow answered that; the cast reading did not. (Maybe if you assume Yi wouldn't give workplace advice if there wasn't going to be a workplace...but that's too much assuming for me.)

Freeda - I'm excited for you and hope you have lots to share when you return!
Agreed!
 

ricardoribeiro

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The Chinese tend to just use lines 2,3,4 (lower trigram) and 3,4,5 (upper trigram) of the original hexagram to make a nuclear hexagram to know more about their present situation.
 

iams girl

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Thank you ricardo, I do find the middle nuclear hexagram most helpful and if only had one nuclear to work with would use that one. It does seem the others highlight other aspects of the reading though also which are fascinating to me. For example finding hex 28 as the nuclear the week I was exhausted and hex 59 another week when 4 people quit where I work.
 
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Freedda

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The Chinese tend to just use lines 2,3,4 (lower trigram) and 3,4,5 (upper trigram) of the original hexagram to make a nuclear hexagram to know more about their present situation.
Ricardo, a few questions about what you wrote:

What do you mean by 'The Chinese'? Do you mean current Chinese thinkers and users of the Yi? Or past Chinese users from a certain age or dynasty? And what is your source for this?

I ask because the original Yi didn't have any instructions on how to use it, and I don't think it mentions nuclear trigrams or hexagrams. And I also ask because I believe the use of nuclear trigrams predates using nuclear hexagrams, at least that's my understanding - which leads me to assume that nuclear hexagram use (by anyone, even the Chinese) is as more recent invention - though in this case 'recent' might be counted in hundreds or thousands of years.

Brest, David.
 
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Freedda

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I meant some people i am aware of who use the I Ching.
Thanks for clarifying. To refer to "The Chinese" seemed why too broad a statement. And what is also true is that other people (Chinese and otherwise) use different methods of approaching a reading, such as using the nuclear trigrams (instead of the hexagrams). And some might not look at the 'nuclears' at all.


Best, D.
 
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Freedda

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.... I found the nuclears interesting as the initial encounter / presenting challenge / entry point (lower nuclear hexagram), inner work (middle nuclear), and mastery/higher potential (upper nuclear) ....
I have been talking with a few people about these 'other' nuclear hexgrams - the upper and lower nuclear hexagrams. I'm wondeirng who or what the source of these are?

I have seen a few treads and a WikiWing entry about nuclear hexgrams, but they don't' identify the source or author or originator of these. Someone mentiond one Yi practitioner whom I'm not familar with, and Steven Karcher is also mentioned but I think for Karcher, they are getting mixed up with his idea of 'seasonal' hexgrams - which are created in a different way then the nuclear hexgrams, and carry different meanings.

So, does anyone know where this idea of the upper and lower nuclear hexgrams comes from? Does it have it's roots in older or historic Yi studies (as I believe the 'usual' nuclear hexgrams/trigrams do), or is this a more recent 20th/21st century idea?

What I'm asking about are this 'other' nuclear hexagrams, made of lines: 1,2,3,2,3,4 and 3,4,5,4,5,6.

Thanks
 
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Gmulii

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I have been talking with a few people about these 'other' nuclear hexgrams - the upper and lower nuclear hexagrams. I'm wondeirng who or what the source of these are?

I have seen a few treads and an WikiWing entry about nuclear hexgrams, but they dont' really identify the source or author or originator of these. Someone mentiond one Yi practitioner whom I'm not familar with, and Steven Karcher is also mentioned, but I think for Karcher, these are getting mixed up with his idea of 'seasonal' hexgrams - which are created in a different way then the nuclear hexgrams, and carry different meanings.

So, does anyone know where this idea of the upper and lower nuclear hexgrams comes from? Does it have it's roots in older or historic Yi studies (as I believe the 'usual' nuclear hexgrams/trigarms do), or is this a more recent 20th/21st century idea?

Thanks
Its heavily used in Mei Hua(Plum Blossom), as "progress hexagram", though there are many other names.
So much that some years ago I added it in the old calculator.


I don't use Mei Hua much, but I assume they go back to the time Mei Hua started, and that would be around a thousand years ago during Song Dinasty(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_dynasty).
Its not very recent, yet for an Five Arts system, thousand years ago isn't that much, either.

I don't know if they existed before that, haven't read any of the original texts either, so its just guessing, but in the east the nuclear trigrams are used often and a lot, although to be fair practically I have seen them used only in Mei Hua(but have rarely seen a Mei Hua reading without them).

Figuring out a source will be challenging, as we are mostly focused on other stuff.
 

kevin

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Hi Gmulii

When you say

"Its heavily used in Mei Hua(Plum Blossom), as "progress hexagram", though there are many other names.
So much that some years ago I added it in the old calculator. "

Were you referring to a nuclear hexagram of 234 345, or one of the further types?
 

Gmulii

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Hi Gmulii

When you say

"Its heavily used in Mei Hua(Plum Blossom), as "progress hexagram", though there are many other names.
So much that some years ago I added it in the old calculator. "

Were you referring to a nuclear hexagram of 234 345, or one of the further types?
Yea, 234 makes lower trigram, 345 makes the upper of the middle hexagram(progress hexagram or transition or whatever we want to call it).
 
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Freedda

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Yea, 234 makes lower trigram, 345 makes the upper of the middle hexagram(progress hexagram or transition or whatever we want to call it).
That's fine, but what I was specifically asking about are the 'other' nuclear hexagrams, made of lines: 1,2,3,2,3,4 and 3,4,5,4,5,6

Maybe I didn't make that clear enough, so I edited my post above to clarify what I'm asking about.
 
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Gmulii

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That's fine, but what I was specifically asking about are the 'other' nuclear hexagrams, made of lines: 1,2,3,2,3,4 and 3,4,5,4,5,6

Maybe I didn't make that clear enough, so I edited my post above to make that bore clear.
Haven't seen that before.
 

kevin

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Yea, 234 makes lower trigram, 345 makes the upper of the middle hexagram(progress hexagram or transition or whatever we want to call it).
Thanks, I thought you were referring to the other kinds which appear to me to risk being part of a modern trend where every discernible pattern becomes imbued with some pertinent meaning.

Be well
:)
 

my_key

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That's fine, but what I was specifically asking about are the 'other' nuclear hexagrams, made of lines: 1,2,3,2,3,4 and 3,4,5,4,5,6

Maybe I didn't make that clear enough, so I edited my post above to clarify what I'm asking about.
Hi Freedda
From what I understand

123 234 = lower nuclear and represents the situation as encountered
234 345 = middle nuclear (the normal nuclear) and represents the challenge driving the current situation
345 456 = upper nuclear and indicates what you are moving towards rather than your reaction against

I've not worked with the upper and lower nuclears much, so can't speak from my own experience, however I get the idea that it's a behind the scenes stepwise thing within the over-arching process of the primary hexagram.
If you know more then I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Good Luck
 
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Freedda

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I get the idea that it's a behind the scenes stepwise thing
Thanks My_Key: I was asking where they come from, what is the source? history?

Right now, I'm leaning towards what Kevin said above, that they 'appear to [be] part of a modern trend ....'

Otherwise, I have a sense of how they are used, but I have very little experience with them, so I can't speak to their use or their usefulness.

Thanks ....
 

my_key

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I'd agree with yours and Kevins comments about the modernness of this approach. I have no recollection of where I read about them so cannot help with your search for their origins. Perhaps your buddy Harmen will be a good source for this.
 

kevin

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For me there is a possible confusion between patterns embedded in Yijing and those parts that are directly pertinent to a reading. Yijing is structured geometrically and there are an infinite number of patterns to be found. See Shao Yong! They are very interesting, but just which of them are directly relevant to a reading?

The nuclear hexagrams which go beyond 234, 345 seem to be a recent thing with no pedigree. Why did the Chinese of old not use them? After all they would have been aware of many of these dimensions. Also who says that these additional nuclear hexagrams mean anything particular at all?

It is too easy to try one of these 'modern dimensions' and think we find a relevance to our reading and conclude that a given new method must be sound. After all they throw up interesting perspectives on a reading and our minds are geared to find meaning where they may.

A basic reading encapsulates a tremendous depth and breadth of metaphoric information if we focus on it. By basic I refer to the trigrams, their interaction, changing trigrams (or lines if that is your style) with resulting trigrams, or again hexagrams if you prefer. Trying to get additional depth by extending it through too many, and perhaps unfounded, algorithms is to risk both to loose the focus of what the reading is saying and to go down a 'pattern' street which may well not have any true meaning at all, but which also often extend beyond the reading into the realm of the greater patterning of Yijing.

Again, staying with my view, and others are welcome to differ, the question of what the 345, 456 nuclear trigrams represent is still a matter of question. Why should they be a hidden potential, or meaning? Who says that is what they are? Looking at the KW sequence Hexagrams 1:2 are the great generative powers and at the other end 63:64 are the most integrated Yin/Yang hexagrams Integrative powers in this context?All nuclear hexagrams ultimately resolve to these four. One might imagine that these are forces acting through the nuclear trigrams to energise, or weave (integrate) the given hexagrams energies as they progress along the KW sequence. Seen this way the nuclear hexagram or trigrams are the forces acting beneath the hexagram driving it with that given underlying quality.

So for example: hexagram 27 Jaws is in the position in the pair of a creative or inspiring Yang hexagram. It's nuclear hexagram is Kun. Is Kun feeding it 'manifestation / nourishing / making real' energy so that 27 is not solely an idea/inspiration, but the representation image of the powerful processing change it represents.

How could Kun be a hidden potential of Jaws / Yi? What would it manifest which is not already taking place? Are we actually looking under the bonnet at the engine rather than focusing on the journey?

And, all of this is before stepping towards the various additional nuclear trigram permutations.

Just my thoughts.
 

my_key

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The nuclear hexagrams which go beyond 234, 345 seem to be a recent thing with no pedigree. Why did the Chinese of old not use them? After all they would have been aware of many of these dimensions. Also who says that these additional nuclear hexagrams mean anything particular at all?
I am trying to find where I had come across the newer lower nuclear and upper nuclear models but still the little grey cells are not playing ball.
Browsing through Ritsema / Sabbadini I found a piece on page 24 that gives origins for the middle nuclear (234 345) that they call the Counter Hexagram. They say
" two inner or 'nuclear' trigrams have attracted scholars' attention since Han times (206 BC to 220 AD............ When the two trigrams are placed one on top of the other, we obtain a hu gua , a 'twisted hexagram' also called, in modern use a'nuclear hexagram'.

These 'counter hexagrams' "correspond to a shift in emphasis - often a shift in the opposite direction compared to that of the primary hexagram, which generally is to be avoided. The 'counter hexagram' therefore points to something that is not the case or that should not be done in the given situation"
......the nuclear hexagram or trigrams are the forces acting beneath the hexagram driving it with that given underlying quality.
That's how I would see them - which looks to be at odds with Ritsema / Sabbadini's perspective. But clearly the nuclear hexagram has been around for a long time - since the Han. The other two are still not tied down in respect of origin or whether they have anything that has been proven to add to a reading.
 
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Freedda

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... How could Kun be a hidden potential of Jaws (Hex. 27)? ...
I've been focusing on working with the trigrams and their associated imagery and meanings. At the same time, I am working with the idea that 'less is more' or that 'too much is not enough', and how I might apply that,

So while my inclination is to try to find more understanding or meanings by looking at more trigrams and other things (as I imagine others might do with hexgrams), I'm instead trying to look more deeply at my 'original' reading - the hexgrams, trigrams, and moving lines I got as a response to my query.

And to paraphrase Bradford Hatcher (who just passed away), I am trying to see if I can make my work with the Yi not be 'a mile wide, but only an inch deep'.

Also, in talking about how the nuclear Earth might apply to Hex. 27, I feel I have to speak in terms of potential, or how this 'might' apply (if I decided to look at it), since we don't have a specific query, or statement or question to tie it to.

Having said that, I can see how the trigrams Earth - above and below - could apply to a reading where you have the trigrams Thunder below and Mountain above. My first thought might be - and again I'm speaking in the abstract - can Earth offer the idea of support or acceptance to the situation? Or it might have the function of bringing the whole thing 'down to earth' - that I consider a practical outlook or solution to what whatever the situation is.

So, yes, I can see applying trigram Earth to trigrams Thunder and/or Mountain, but right now, I'm trying to excersice a bit of restraint in how and when I might do that.

All the best .....
 
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my_key

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Putting this up as a discussion piece:
Taking Hex 3 as an example as it's the first hex to give some differentiation.
Hex 3 - Difficulties in the beginning
Growing pains, initial resistances encountered

1) 123 234 = lower nuclear and represents the situation as encountered
Hex 24 - Returning.
Stepping into Hex 3, the 'situation encountered' is one calling for renewal, reform, rejuvenation etc.

2) 234 345 = middle nuclear (the normal nuclear) and represents the challenge driving the current situation
Hex 23 - Stripping Away.
The 'challenge' of Hex 3 is to allow the forces of decay and disintegration to prevail.

3) 345 456 = upper nuclear and indicates what you are moving towards rather than your reaction against
Hex 39 - Obstruction
Growing out of Hex 3 requires responding to (moving towards) difficulties rather that reacting against / ignoring them.

So a fit of sorts! ........ at least for one trial. :)
 
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Freedda

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So a fit of sorts!
As I said, I don't use these 'other' hexagrams. Also, I'm trying to be more judicious in the aspects of a reading that I do sometimes look at (e.g. nuclear trigrams, etc.). And I am working with the idea that 'less is more'.

best ...
 
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kevin

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Hi my-key

I'm perplexed.

The cast hexagram is usually seen as the current situation, 'as encountered' and the relating hexagram is usually seen as the direction of change. As such we may never arrive at the resulting hexagram. Other events may create different changes before that. (Thank you for that insight Bradford and bless you).

How can there be two expressions of each of these? Have I misunderstood?

As for 234,345. Thanks for your previous post. I found it useful and I intend to reply to it after I have had time to look up a few things. Apologies for the delay. I'm only here right now as sleep is avoiding me.

I use trigram imagery and have done so for some twenty years. They yield tremendous depth to a reading on their own. For me the 'received text' (as per Wilhelm etc) was one which the Confucians developed mainly as a moral philosophy to guide 'correct' behaviour. I see it as a rather thick crust which obscures the divinatory core. But, another time for that one!

So, I would consider nuclear trigrams, which I have recently abandoned until I get a clearer perspective. I'm currently well through a process of re-evaluating the algorithms, or methods I use and am stripping away the ones I feel are less well founded, or which lead me past the actual reading as cast.

By reducing the number of algorithms I use I find I get much clearer readings. I guess it's a bit like stopping to ask someone directions. If they give too much detail I won't be able to hold it all in my head (Heng - fix it) and the key information can get lost in the detail.

Additionally, historically I have had a tendency to try to look up too much and so forget that what is taking place is primarily the art of divination. Again for me, no amount of data could ever replace the emerging insights as I turn the images in my imagining and cognitive minds.

But, that's just me.

Be well

:)
 
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kevin

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I've been focusing on working with the trigrams and their associated imagery and meanings. At the same time, I am working with the idea that 'less is more' or that 'too much is not enough', and how I might apply that,
Absolutely!

I find working with the trigram imagery alone is quite sufficient. I must admit I do look at the hexagram name and King Wen's Judgements. Though both can be distractions.

As for Hx.27 and Kun (as trigrams if you wish) I think we can always find a relevance in these things and in doing so our minds are perhaps stimulated to consider that which we might ignore. Harmen Mesker sees the nuclear trigrams as that which is blocking the 'repair' of the change. So again we have the idea of them being a contra force. I am not so sure. No more than that.

Be well
 
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Freedda

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Harmen Mesker sees the nuclear trigrams as that which is blocking the 'repair' of the change. So again we have the idea of them being a contra force. I am not so sure.
I just finished Harmen's 8-week online course about working with the tirgams and moving lines, and I have a different take-away of what he taught us about the nuclear trigrams:

* the nuclear trigrams are additional information, or aspects of the reading that I can apply to the situation, or issue or question at hand. They are extra - which for me means I'd look to the 'main' or primary trigrams and moving lines first to understand the Yi's response. They themselves are not a contra-force, nor are they blocking anything; I see them more as adding to, or supplementing the main trigrams / hexagrams / lines. (Above I gave a really quick example of how I might apply the nuclear trigrams Earth to a reading.)

The 'blocking' aspect - that which hides the nuclear trigrams - happens because of another type of trigram, which Harmen calls the surrounding trigrams. I don't want to get into this too much here, except to say that the idea is that the energy, meanings, etc. of these trigrams are blocking the nuclear trigrams - or otherwise keeping them hidden, or unavailable, or 'surrounded'.

But regardless of how I choose to work with the Yi, some key points for me are: how much information can I - or do I need to - glean from the Yi's response? What do I do with it? And at what point does it become 'too much information'? - which is when my pea brain can no longer retain or make sense of all that's thrown at it, and I can't clearly see or find the main or important parts of the Yi's response.

To quote the robot from Lost in Space, at a certain point, all this information, 'does not compute' for me. (See photo below for a depiction of me and my overstimulated robot brain.)

PS - in case anyone thinks that Harmen is a 'trigrams only' kind of guy, he is also teaching an 8-week course about the Yi's text, starting in August.

All the best ....

me-and-robot.jpg
 
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