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Freedda

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If the question was about sources of nuclear hexagrams it seems a non question given they are already there intrinsic in the structure ...

... I often sense this need for authentication ...

... I'm not sure what the question really is now ...
My question (post 13) was about the 'sources' of nuclear hexgram use. I asked it mainly out of curiousity - it was not meant to be about relevance. I think I expressed that when people started to dig into the 'how it's used' aspect of things.

It seemed like the proper thread to ask it in, given the discussion of nuclear hexagrams that was already a part of this thread.

The bottom line for me is, I got my question answered - mainly because Hilary posted a link to Harmen's video, where he did a deep dive into the historic use of nuclear hexgrams. I got a few other useful tipbits out of it, and the rest is just 'gravy' which I and others are free to take or leave.

This discussion did go off in all sorts of directions - and many of the topics and posts were (and still are) confusing to me - and I can certainly understand how they might be confusing to someone just joining in. But that happens a lot here - and in the world of the internet in general - and I really don't have any control over that.

As I said, I have gotten the answer to my question, so I'm good to go, and I'll continue to participate as it suits me, which I think is what we all do.

reagrd ....
 

Liselle

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Ah, I'm using the term in a mathematical sense. I think that was their birth place, but I'm not sure.

For me vectors of change have a direction and a magnitude or length. For me in Change, that is a time value. The longer the vector the longer the time value. Apologies for the lack of clarity.

So, again for me, a changing line indicates a vector to a new point in the change. However as we don't use Yijing with calendars in the West (I believe it is the norm in traditional Chinese divination - certainly in Plum Blossom method) then we do not have a time period from our readings and do not know the length of time involved. I follow Bradford's idea, that it is a direction of travel and other changes may intervene before arrival.
This is interesting. Any chance the relating-hexagram-as-context idea could be seen as vector length zero? Could it mean the moving-towards happened before the question was asked?

As for the direction? Interrelationships have ebbs and flows. Forwards and backwards. Fairly fundamental to Yijing I think.
How do you imagine the vectors in that case?

Added - random article from Google:
With no length, the zero vector is not pointing in any particular direction, so it has an undefined direction.



Actually, I am editing one of his unpublished works right now
The book I am working on now is an uprated 'How to Use the I Ching' circa 2010.
🤞
 

Gmulii

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This is interesting. Any chance the relating-hexagram-as-context idea could be seen as vector length zero? Could it mean the moving-towards happened before the question was asked?


How do you imagine the vectors in that case?

Added - random article from Google:
🤞

I like the idea of asking questions, its a nice way to say something and give the chance the other part to respond as well. : )

So while Kevin can decide to answer or not, I will join in on the-asking-questions part.

We study the art of "Change", right?
People may not know, but that is how it goes...

Change require a few things... It require something in its original state. It required a state it will change into and it also requires a process of change.
In the west we would often consider it will require a "sequential time" from one state to become whatever it will change into, in the Five Arts it would be cyclic change, but it will still need a steps of "time" to pass for the change to fully evolve.

Here we come with the big questions then!

Where is the change?

One hexagram is a first state.
It has its balancing hexagram of how to balance it below.
It has changing lines to point you out to what needs balancing.

All this is very interesting and it does work practically, but if we are studying the changes we need a change, so where is the change that we are suppose to study?
 

Liselle

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In hindsight I don't think I asked my questions very well... what exactly did I mean? :lol:

I think part of it is sometimes the two hexagrams seem quite melded, and in the vector paradigm could that be length zero? Especially when I saw that article which says in math, a zero vector has undefined direction.

Also, lest people think they'll never, ever use the things they learned heard about in college, here are vectors, disproving that 😃
 
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kevin

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This is interesting. Any chance the relating-hexagram-as-context idea could be seen as vector length zero? Could it mean the moving-towards happened before the question was asked?

Hi Liselle

There's so much in that apparently straightforward question which is probably why you posed it. Before I reply I am primarily a diviner and though I read more widely to try to get an understanding of the Yijing pond I tend to be eclectic and look for meaning where I find it. There's a rude word for people like me! So this is only a part of how I might address a reading with changing lines.

I'm not sure that the idea of a zero length (time = 0) vector is helpful here as the overall context is, by definition already present.

For me variable length vectors are more of a reminder that the resulting hexagram might be current, an imminent state, or one that is a little more distant. Even so I generally see it as the direction in which I am travelling rather than the destination. As such, for me, the changing lines represent the places where the change is being driven/caused and so represent the area which might be addressed to effect changes to undesirable situations. Should one want to address them. Sometimes the direction of travel is one I would welcome.

Could it mean the moving-towards happened before the question was asked?

Gosh, we are going even deeper into time flow and Yi here. So these are merely my working ideas.

The first problem with Vectors is that they are usually drawn as straight lines. I suspect a given change in a reading might represent a real world change which involves stops and starts and momentary reversals (loops).

As for the before, here is my take. We have self determination yet we are divining the future. So, staying with linear time moving forwards (and that may not be the case), any one of a few billion people, as well as ourselves might make a decision which will would throw the change in a different direction from that of the reading. If that were the case divination would be a fools errand. So, how can divination work? One way is that the future we divine will grow out of the seeds of the present. What we are getting from divination is a projection of the present trends into the possible future. So there is room for self determined action which will alter the projected trend.

How do you imagine the vectors in that case?
and
I think part of it is sometimes the two hexagrams seem quite melded, and in the vector paradigm could that be length zero? Especially when I saw that article which says in math, a zero vector has undefined direction.

As you infer, perhaps the vector flow is two way? Two way vectors exist as well.

Sometimes more in one direction and at others more in the other direction. This would account for the resulting hexagram being the context and at the other extreme it being the direction of flow. I think it was Harmen who said that resultant trigrams in a reading exist in a two way relationship with the cast trigram. They flow both ways. He currently seems to pay attention to readings at the trigram rather than the hexagram level.

I guess this is where the diviner cannot rely on fixed models, but has to sense what flows are going on in a reading. The problem here is that getting too complicated with time might reduce the clarity for the diviner. They might become lost in a myriad of ideas. So it is, I keep an Ocam's razor folded in the back of my Yijing and try to sense the flows and what is hapenning at the points of turbulence, line over fullness, the changing lines and where they are leading.

Well these are my jumbled thoughts. I do hope you might find something here of use.

Best to you.
 
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kevin

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Yes, I agree.

I would go further and say that everything is melded. A thought that reading Gmilii's post engendered.

In the west we are brought up to think in terms of straight causal lines through linear time. "He did 'this', 'that' caused that and the outcome was 'this'." I think the world is much more interconnected, or melded.

To think something can have an effect.

An unrelated action elsewhere can effect something seemingly unconnected. Enter CG Jung's synchronicity.

Perhaps even a future event can echo back through time, if one listens carefully.

Just thoughts.
 

Gmulii

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Yes, I agree.

I would go further and say that everything is melded. A thought that reading Gmilii's post engendered.

In the west we are brought up to think in terms of straight causal lines through linear time. "He did 'this', 'that' caused that and the outcome was 'this'." I think the world is much more interconnected, or melded.

To think something can have an effect.

An unrelated action elsewhere can effect something seemingly unconnected. Enter CG Jung's synchronicity.

Perhaps even a future event can echo back through time, if one listens carefully.

Just thoughts.

In the Five Arts all is cyclic. There is a process that comes from the lowest point(in later heaven that is Water), through rising up(Wood) to a peak(Fire) then moves down increasing in speed, yet losing its connection(Metal) to again renew itself at the lowest point in Water.

Keeps repeating everywhere, every 2 hours, day, month and year, in the Trigrams, in the earthly branches, in the heavenly stems and in other places, although each has its own differences to it and its not always the same, but its always a cycle in one way or another.

In that way, one example we often give for that is that we can never be sure, just looking at someones 4 pillars if they were born today, or 60 years ago, or 120 years ago etc. as the elements will be exactly the same.
Their whole calendars are just big spirals of the same movement intertwine with the movements of everything around and depending what step of it something is and how it relates and vibrates with all other movements around it, we bring Images and make divination, or cures in a house, or other stuffs.

Synchronicity is strongly there as well, here is interesting example, this are "evidential occurrences" for QMDJ:


If we scroll down a little, can see hundreds of different situations, that would mean the current QMDJ map will be valid answer to someones question, or that someones divination will come true.

There are similar stuff for Yi Jing as well, although I don't think it has been translated in its entirety in English yet.


Anyway, I think both ways of viewing the 2 hexagrams are valid, however the vector thing one, is much closer to how I view it, as the other has practical problems when applied with some of the styles(like Liu Yao).
While for the text all is fine, I think.
 

Trojina

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Do you think that now 'in the west' is a pretty outdated concept ? I mean all the advances/explorations of Yi, call them what you will, have happened 'in the west' for at least 100 years. I no longer believe there is a 'western' way of thinking, if you talk to people you may find all kinds of beliefs that aren't of the 'west'. It's just a question

In the west we are brought up to think in terms of straight causal lines through linear time. "He did 'this', 'that' caused that and the outcome was 'this'." I think the world is much more interconnected, or melded.

Well they do that in 'the east' too surely otherwise how could anything get done. Also the whole concept of karma of the east and so on. I don't know I only know I always pull back when people say 'in the west we..' I do feel it's out of date somehow. A person in China or India getting up and going to work each day for pay will believe 'he did this that caused this the outcome is this' since they are going to work to get paid. It's not like people in 'the east' don't function by logical outcomes driven by practical need. I work t
oday so I can eat tomorrow.


I don't know what a vector is, must have missed it, I'd have to go back (and it's an absurdly long thread) but it sounds like part of a fan heater or something. Possibly it's the direction of change

Sometimes more in one direction and at others more in the other direction. This would account for the resulting hexagram being the context and at the other extreme it being the direction of flow. I think it was Harmen who said that resultant trigrams in a reading exist in a two way relationship with the cast trigram. They flow both ways. He currently seems to pay attention to readings at the trigram rather than the hexagram level.

I guess this is where the diviner cannot rely on fixed models, but has to sense what flows are going on in a reading. The problem here is that getting too complicated with time might reduce the clarity for the diviner. They might become lost in a myriad of ideas. So it is, I keep an Ocam's razor folded in the back of my Yijing and try to sense the flows and what is hapenning at the points of turbulence, line over fullness, the changing lines and where they are leading.



Yes the relating hexagram in interpretation is totally fluid and it has to be understood I think mostly by the intuition of the reader. Mostly I don't see the primary and relating in an actual reading as separate, together they make the reading. I wouldn't often see the relating hexagram as a place to be potentially heading to but I might occasionally.
 

Gmulii

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Do you think that now 'in the west' is a pretty outdated concept ? I mean all the advances/explorations of Yi, call them what you will, have happened 'in the west' for at least 100 years. I no longer believe there is a 'western' way of thinking, if you talk to people you may find all kinds of beliefs that aren't of the 'west'. It's just a question

This probably is worthy of explanation.
I do agree,the east/west concept has a lot of problems.
If I could use something better I would. But there is a reason and while there are these differences sometimes a point to it may need to be recognized.

I'm happy to list small amount of the variety of problems with east/west.
One is that by "the east" we may mean India, and that has very little to do with what we could mean here.
The other problem is that even though we are suppose to mean China, China is a complex country.

Hong Kong and Taiwan(where the Five Arts are flourishing presently) are geographically part of China, yet almost all that I have meant when I said the "east" I meant mostly them and South Korea and other few countries in the region, because the sad truth is since mainland China doesn't have open access to Internet, I know almost no one practicing the systems there.

So now, its even more messy, because when I say the east that not only excludes India that is a very big place, it also excludes a bunch of other places, including mainland China itself, as I have no way to know in details what is going on there.

In that sense - of course, you are correct, the east/west concept is awful, awful concept and I can keep listing many more reasons why.
Important one, would also be that there are many practitioners in the western countries that also should be included with "the east" part.


Yet even with all that, there are still times when there are big cultural differences that may be important for a specific point of view or topic.
We don't have professional masters doing readings on the streets, for example. The whole idea would be absurd in most of the western world, yet it is considered fundamental in the society there.

And while we do have stuff in history, like the quotes attributed to Hippocrates, saying:
“a physician without a knowledge of Astrology has no right to call himself a physician .”

And that would sound very much like a traditional chinese healer, saying a healer has to know Yi Jing, or a legendary commander saying a true commander has to know QMDJ(examples in their history), this isn't quoted in the west now, if a medical doctor tells you all other doctors must know astrology, most people would take their bags and run in the opposite direction. As the mindset is changed now, we are careful of metaphysics.

In that sense there is a big difference of the history and mindset.
In parts of Asia, the mindset is the opposite, these systems and styles of learning are still what is considered respectable, important and helpful for the community, also it is highly payed enough that there is enough research done on much of it(if you check the amount of acupuncture research done in that parts of the world its amazing).

And that is just small example, the concept is awful, but there are so big differences in some cultural and traditional points of view, that if we want to point out to it we can't say every time that its not just something happening in specific teaching or school, but something that is entirely viewed in different way in the whole region and by all practitioners in the western world that follow the same point of view. If there was nicer ways of saying it, I would, east vs west is awful and very inaccurate, but it conveys the idea of a large community of people that view it in entirely different way and that view is deeply rooted in their way of life, and sometimes that is needed as it could be important to understand parts of what is going on.
 

Liselle

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Thanks, Kevin. Maybe it's best to try keeping all the different ideas in mind, and also try just to let fluidity happen (or something - not good at this).

And while we do have stuff in history, like the quotes attributed to Hippocrates, saying:
“a physician without a knowledge of Astrology has no right to call himself a physician .”
I know two cases where that would have helped. (edit - this rule, is what I mean, from Hippocrates: "Touch not with iron that part of the body ruled by the sign the Moon is transitting.")


Possibly it's the direction of change
Yes. From a random Googled source: "vector quantities are quantities that possess both magnitude and direction. A force has both magnitude and direction..."

So for some readings it seems to fit the 'tending towards' idea (and to what extent, per Bradford); maybe the force of the pull.
 
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Trojina

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Thanks for your detailed answer Gmulii. I was responding to Kevin's use of the term but your reply is useful. What I mean is I wasn't thinking specifically of how you would use the term in relation to the 5 arts.

I'm happy to list small amount of the variety of problems with east/west.
One is that by "the east" we may mean India, and that has very little to do with what we could mean here.
The other problem is that even though we are suppose to mean China, China is a complex country.

Quite but I don't understand why India has little to do with what we mean here ? Perhaps you are only thinking of the 5 arts ?

If someone speaks of Eastern philosophy I think of India, Hinduism, the Vedas as well as China, Taoism, Buddhism. Googling it says Eastern philosophy includes Indian philosophy.

Hong Kong and Taiwan(where the Five Arts are flourishing presently) are geographically part of China, yet almost all that I have meant when I said the "east" I meant mostly them and South Korea and other few countries in the region, because the sad truth is since mainland China doesn't have open access to Internet, I know almost no one practicing the systems there.

And I don't think the I Ching is very much seriously regarded there at the current time although I'm quite uninformed on that so others may know more.

So now, its even more messy, because when I say the east that not only excludes India that is a very big place, it also excludes a bunch of other places, including mainland China itself, as I have no way to know in details what is going on there.

So when you refer to the 'east' it's not the east I am thinking of which includes India



In that sense - of course, you are correct, the east/west concept is awful, awful concept and I can keep listing many more reasons why.
Important one, would also be that there are many practitioners in the western countries that also should be included with "the east" part.

Yes many people in the west now embrace eastern philosophies, it's not a minority interest it's fairly usual at least in the UK. Eastern religions are taught in school, I can't see any clear line between 'eastern' and 'western' thought these days. In the past it meant more but now it seems less of a useful term.

Yet even with all that, there are still times when there are big cultural differences that may be important for a specific point of view or topic.
We don't have professional masters doing readings on the streets, for example. The whole idea would be absurd in most of the western world, yet it is considered fundamental in the society there.

But the west has literally millions of people offering readings and spiritual advice, everyone has become a guru with a website


And while we do have stuff in history, like the quotes attributed to Hippocrates, saying:
“a physician without a knowledge of Astrology has no right to call himself a physician .”

And that would sound very much like a traditional chinese healer, saying a healer has to know Yi Jing, or a legendary commander saying a true commander has to know QMDJ(examples in their history), this isn't quoted in the west now, if a medical doctor tells you all other doctors must know astrology, most people would take their bags and run in the opposite direction. As the mindset is changed now, we are careful of metaphysics.

But Drs in India and China have similar medical qualifications as Drs in the west, it's not like hospital Drs in 'the east' sit around making natal charts and discussing someone's midheaven



In that sense there is a big difference of the history and mindset.
In parts of Asia, the mindset is the opposite, these systems and styles of learning are still what is considered respectable, important and helpful for the community, also it is highly payed enough that there is enough research done on much of it(if you check the amount of acupuncture research done in that parts of the world its amazing).

Yes

And that is just small example, the concept is awful, but there are so big differences in some cultural and traditional points of view, that if we want to point out to it we can't say every time that its not just something happening in specific teaching or school, but something that is entirely viewed in different way in the whole region and by all practitioners in the western world that follow the same point of view. If there was nicer ways of saying it, I would, east vs west is awful and very inaccurate, but it conveys the idea of a large community of people that view it in entirely different way and that view is deeply rooted in their way of life, and sometimes that is needed as it could be important to understand parts of what is going on.

Possibly but most work on I Ching is now done by westerners
 

Sparhawk

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Possibly but most work on I Ching is now done by westerners

Not really. There's a lot of work and teaching done in China in particular. For example, here:



Scott Davis, to name a Western Yixue student, for example, was also teaching there for a while.
 

kevin

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Hi Gmulii

Thank you for taking so much trouble with this reply.

The cyclic concept has quite a ring of truth to it. I like the idea quite a lot. I am not surprised that that method yields accurate results.

Yes, vectors work for me. Yijing has met my needs since very early adulthood. Though I do wish I could grasp the complexity of the flow, or movement in a Yijing reading. I'm sure it must be as if a multicoloured vibrant set of complex movements. I tend to see basic connections and interactions along with simple flows. Sighs.

Recently I have sensed the lack of using a calendar alongside Yijing. I imagine this would be normal street diviner practice in China? If I had fifty more years I think I would study Four Pillars. However I have completed the major parts of my destiny and am winding down now. And, I suspect it might be rather intellectually challenging. Perhaps beyond my abilities.

FWIW dreams have been my personal long term oracle. At 38 - 40 years old I had a series of dreams which symbolically mapped out my life up to this point. Where I would live, who I would be with, my work and key issues. All of those have come to completion each in turn. Now I am in the final indeterminate phase. In that I was living in a symbolic representation of this house that I now live in with a cat (in the dream it was a dog) reading Yijing and drinking tea. What could be better!

I wonder if I will get a surprise ending?

For others I use Seeing and Yijing. I can't describe seeing. I talk with someone and I just know. I was born like that and quickly learned to keep that to myself. Often I see things that the recipient would not want to know. They have often already set their course hard and just want a confirmation. So I typically just add some cautions in those cases. I live as a quasi hermit. Having worked in mental health I have seen quite enough and it is often painful.

Why am I telling you all of this? I have grown tired of hiding who I am and have decided to 'come out'. For too long when I have dared to share it people run a mile or feel threatened. Add another colour to that rainbow!

A concern is that I think there may be too many who seem to see Yijing as a look up book and they can become quite expert. But, as the Dazhuan says it can train the user to see the seeds of a change before the change occurs. In this way I see it as a training tool as well and that the bulk of the art is being a diviner rather than divining.

I do hope that not too much of this post is unwanted.

Wishing you a good journey and joy.
 
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Sparhawk

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I do hope that not too much of this post is unwanted.

None of that is unwanted. Thank you for sharing something so personal.
 

kevin

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None of that is unwanted. Thank you for sharing something so personal.

Thank you Luis

And greetings from a long time back :)

Following the link to your site I read one of your articles. Marvellous. Thank you.

These words of yours captured something subtle which I think is so very true:
"Sometimes, as I’ve claimed in other places and other writings, studying and writing about the Yijing works like a quantum field where us, the observers, can unwittingly collapse certain latent states… "

A great observation and description. Thank you.

I wish you well.
 
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kevin

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An addendum/errata to my post on Vectors

In my previous post I said vectors could be two way. This is actually incorrect. If one were indicating a two way relationship between say the cast hexagram and the resulting hexagram two vectors, each like an arrow, would usually be drawn. Each going in opposite directions.

This also allows for the addition of indicating more information.

The length might be regarded as the length of time, but now the thickness of the arrow can be seen as the quantity of flow. Thus the stronger the flow in one direction the thicker the arrow, but there is still room to indicate some flow in the other direction.

This is not an attempt at mathematical perfection so much as using this as a model with which to think about those flows of change energy which are taking place.
 
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Liselle

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There is nothing wrong with sitting at home with cats, reading.
 

kevin

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There is a great peace and tranquility and my moggie says I should agree with you :)
 
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kevin

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I have taken some time before replying because your post has made me re-evaluate my thoughts.

Do you think that now 'in the west' is a pretty outdated concept ? I mean all the advances/explorations of Yi, call them what you will, have happened 'in the west' for at least 100 years. I no longer believe there is a 'western' way of thinking, if you talk to people you may find all kinds of beliefs that aren't of the 'west'. It's just a question

Yes, there has been immense cross fertilisation of ideas between cultures, but no, I think we are far from being anything near the same.

How many people in the 'West' embrace the Yijing, Astrology and other such approaches as an integrated part of their personal culture? Not many at all, perhaps a small fraction of 1%? How many hold complex ideas of the acausal interconnectedness of ourselves to others, material objects and nature? Very few. Yet in traditional Eastern thought these are a given. Though admittedly Hinduism and Budhism at the street level takes a different route to this from that of China and Japan. Japan seems to be a meld of Yijing, Budhism and Shinto. Shinto echoing closely that of traditional rural Chinese folk beliefs and the curious melded Budhist/traditional set of 'superstitions' found in Thailand and Burma - They make great spooky movies drawing on these, but the Budhist priest usually sets things right in the end. I'm leaving out Korea for yet more brevity, though their traditional movies also project similar ideas, but often with a lot of superb humour. They seem to have a deep appreciation of the 'humour of life' which I have not found elsewhere. And, the Judaic root of Western cultures is so very different from all of these.

Merely positing a technological cultural determinism and this includes thinking models, is not evidenced at all.

Our Western way of thinking far pre-dates modern science with it's causal model. Pre-enlightnment correlative thinking is still with us, in a muted form. Though I find much fault with Ken Wilbur's ideas he makes a very good point. He asserts that as a culture progresses it does not abandon the old, but incorporates it into the new. Thus in the West there are still echoes of dread things in the forest, haunted houses and a 'Nature', that can be angered and so forth.

So too the Enlightenment did not cause the demise of organised religion. Some of the leading scientists and mathematicians are devoutly religious. Yet, one might see a conflict between that and Causal thinking it seems not to be an issue foe many.

Well they do that in 'the east' too surely otherwise how could anything get done. Also the whole concept of karma of the east and so on. I don't know I only know I always pull back when people say 'in the west we..' I do feel it's out of date somehow. A person in China or India getting up and going to work each day for pay will believe 'he did this that caused this the outcome is this' since they are going to work to get paid. It's not like people in 'the east' don't function by logical outcomes driven by practical need. I work t
oday so I can eat tomorrow.

Causal thinking everywhere has always been one of the core cultural norms. Indeed it is hard wired into us. It would not have been possible for the ancients to build their great architectural monuments without considerable planning based on causal thinking. Indeed the simple act of tracking and killing an animal on a neolithic hunt required considerable causal thinking. Where is that animal going, why? Would we catch it more easily there? Arrows are not strong enough for big game, we must use spears. etc This did not prevent them from having acausal beliefs and ways of thinking as well.

Hindu's and Budhist's have ideas of the 'mystical' interrelationship of all things, Karma and so forth. This is very different to the old Western beliefs of correlative thinking which though not seeing us as seperate from 'things' it did not generally include our relationships to others except by witchcraft. Sub-Saharan Africa was more similar to us in this than the East.

When I first read your reply to myself and then your post to Gmulii I thought you had a point. My first thought was that just generally referring to the East is as silly as referring to "Americans" or, "Europeans". These categories encompass groups with widely disparate views. However there are core cultural values which such vast categories do seem to encompass and Globalisation has not yet completely eroded these. For example, American culture is generally really quite different from European culture. Those long years of experience and struggle to colonise a vast continent is very much embedded in American culture and it is not such a recent memory in Europe. I see echoes of that struggle in modern American debates, especially with regard to issues of the primacy of self determination and self sufficiency versus state intervention.

China, on the other hand has had to cope with massive flooding and earthquakes for millennia. There are five different tectonic plates in China along with at least two troublesome river plains. To hold the society together as a functioning whole has meant that for millennia a very high degree of collaboration has been required. Otherwise one by one most (?) towns and villages would simply have been wiped out because 'no-one came to the rescue'. This might be why one of the key cultural values in China is that the individual is seen as not so important compared to the whole, or as they much as they are held to be in the West. High levels of organised collaboration can only be found when individuality is given up to the purpose of those organising from above. We see this is in Army's all over the world.

Finally, different cultures preserve themselves through the arts as much as by any other means. I am pleased to see that there are still great cultural differences for us all to enjoy across the cultural divides, despite globalisation. And with cultural differences come differences in the way we apprehend (sic) the world about is.

So, yes, there are exchanges of ideas and at a cultural 'being' level, but I think there are still great differences at the root level.

None of what I have written here is intended to be authoritative or final. It is merely illustrative.
 
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Trojina

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Hi Kevin the last few paragraphs of your answer is hidden within a quote from me so it looks like I have written what you say. Whats happened is you've written within a quote from me. If you close off the quote people will be able to read the last part of your answer and it will be clear its you speaking.



Not read it all yet just wanted to let you know
 

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Hi Kevin the last few paragraphs of your answer is hidden within a quote from me so it looks like I have written what you say. Whats happened is you've written within a quote from me. If you close off the quote people will be able to read the last part of your answer and it will be clear its you speaking.



Not read it all yet just wanted to let you know
Hi Trojina

Thanks

Corrected.

Best to you
 

Trojina

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I have taken some time before replying because your post has made me re-evaluate my thoughts.

Thank you for the full reply.

Yes, there has been immense cross fertilisation of ideas between cultures, but no, I think we are far from being anything near the same.

No, I wouldn't go so far as saying we are the same. Afterall there are even cultural differences between areas of the UK so the East/West differences aren't put away so easily. I mean obviously there are vast economic differences for a start.

What I was picking up on was a particular usage of 'we in the west do X those in the east do Y' where it is assumed those in the east are altogether less logical more spiritual, less logical or materialist values more spiritual values. That I can no longer go along with especially as I view some social/cultural progress in 'the west' as issuing from the best of values, the equality of homosexuals. the freedom of women for example. When I see cultures in some parts of the east where girls are expected to marry an older man at 13 I'm really not buying 'yes the east is so much more in touch with the spirit'. I don't think that's the case.


How many people in the 'West' embrace the Yijing, Astrology and other such approaches as an integrated part of their personal culture? Not many at all, perhaps a small fraction of 1%? How many hold complex ideas of the acausal interconnectedness of ourselves to others, material objects and nature? Very few.

Well it depends who's culture you are talking about. I guarantee a very large proportion of women in the west actually do embrace astrology ( not sure that's a good thing even though I do astrology I tire of the fatalistic cookbook interpretations) and other approaches as a part f their personal culture. Indeed where I live we are saturated with it. Where do you get the figures that that there are 'very few'. I feel if I stopped every 5th person on the street in the UK I'd find a whole host of beliefs about the interconnectedness of things and such. Again that's not always for the best, these ideas can be corrupted but I really don't think one can say with any certainty there's just 1 percent I think you're way off there since what portion of the population are you talking about ? I think there is a gender divide in the UK for example you'd find more women than men with such leanings but that's another matter.


Yet in traditional Eastern thought these are a given. Though admittedly Hinduism and Budhism at the street level takes a different route to this from that of China and Japan. Japan seems to be a meld of Yijing, Budhism and Shinto. Shinto echoing closely that of traditional rural Chinese folk beliefs and the curious melded Budhist/traditional set of 'superstitions' found in Thailand and Burma - They make great spooky movies drawing on these, but the Budhist priest usually sets things right in the end. I'm leaving out Korea for yet more brevity, though their traditional movies also project similar ideas, but often with a lot of superb humour. They seem to have a deep appreciation of the 'humour of life' which I have not found elsewhere. And, the Judaic root of Western cultures is so very different from all of these.

There is a good deal of fatalism in eastern thought too which actually can inhibit cultural change for the better.



Merely positing a technological cultural determinism and this includes thinking models, is not evidenced at all.

Not sure what that means.

Our Western way of thinking far pre-dates modern science with it's causal model. Pre-enlightnment correlative thinking is still with us, in a muted form. Though I find much fault with Ken Wilbur's ideas he makes a very good point. He asserts that as a culture progresses it does not abandon the old, but incorporates it into the new. Thus in the West there are still echoes of dread things in the forest, haunted houses and a 'Nature', that can be angered and so forth.

When you say 'our western way of thinking' I'm not denying the existence of the broad difference between east and west but I do find it far too broad and scarcely inclusive of our entire population in 'the west'. I mean if we think in terms of people, what people in the west only think in terms of causality. For a start there's a Tarot reader on every street (female generally) there's the whole spiritualist movement which still happens in halls everywhere, countless workshops on reincarnation/aura reading/palm reading. Countless festivals for fairies/witches/druids

So too the Enlightenment did not cause the demise of organised religion. Some of the leading scientists and mathematicians are devoutly religious. Yet, one might see a conflict between that and Causal thinking it seems not to be an issue foe many.

Isn't the whole concept of karma and the entire corruption of that concept, the caste system all based on causal thinking. Okay not in the sense you mean.

Causal thinking everywhere has always been one of the core cultural norms. Indeed it is hard wired into us. It would not have been possible for the ancients to build their great architectural monuments without considerable planning based on causal thinking. Indeed the simple act of tracking and killing an animal on a neolithic hunt required considerable causal thinking. Where is that animal going, why? Would we catch it more easily there? Arrows are not strong enough for big game, we must use spears. etc This did not prevent them from having acausal beliefs and ways of thinking as well.

I'd argue acausal thinking hasn't really gone very far away, our movies all full of it and so are our psyches.

Hindu's and Budhist's have ideas of the 'mystical' interrelationship of all things, Karma and so forth. This is very different to the old Western beliefs of correlative thinking which though not seeing us as seperate from 'things' it did not generally include our relationships to others except by witchcraft. Sub-Saharan Africa was more similar to us in this than the East.

And yet do ideas of mystical interrealtionships of all things make a kinder more equal, more just society ? I don't think so. I only say this because when I hear 'we in the west' I usually hear it as pejorative to the west. I get the impression 'the east' is being held up as way ahead spiritually as if anyone in the east is in touch with God and in the west we aren't and of course that's too crude a distinction.




When I first read your reply to myself and then your post to Gmulii I thought you had a point. My first thought was that just generally referring to the East is as silly as referring to "Americans" or, "Europeans". These categories encompass groups with widely disparate views. However there are core cultural values which such vast categories do seem to encompass and Globalisation has not yet completely eroded these. For example, American culture is generally really quite different from European culture. Those long years of experience and struggle to colonise a vast continent is very much embedded in American culture and it is not such a recent memory in Europe. I see echoes of that struggle in modern American debates, especially with regard to issues of the primacy of self determination and self sufficiency versus state intervention.

I wouldn't say referring to 'the east' 'the west' is silly I just think those terms can't just be thrown out there as being sufficient an explanation for certain things. Some qualifiers are needed, more specificity. In Jung's time he tended to use the terms a fair amount I think but that time has passed where we can do that with no other references for our argument IMO.

Yes the US is very different culturally from Europe as France is to the UK as Bradford is to Penzance. I'm not arguing against these broad cultural differences arising from history, tradition, economy, experience I'm only saying I can no longer hear the term 'we in the west' etc as being very meaningful. It does need qualifying.

Often I'll notice with diviners of more eastern background their way with Yi will be highly fatalistic, much more in the realm of fortune telling than some of their western counterparts. The reason for that one might say is the cultural background against which the divination occurs is far less self determining than in 'the west' and this will be tied up with economic necessities as well as tradition and so on.



China, on the other hand has had to cope with massive flooding and earthquakes for millennia. There are five different tectonic plates in China along with at least two troublesome river plains. To hold the society together as a functioning whole has meant that for millennia a very high degree of collaboration has been required. Otherwise one by one most (?) towns and villages would simply have been wiped out because 'no-one came to the rescue'. This might be why one of the key cultural values in China is that the individual is seen as not so important compared to the whole, or as they much as they are held to be in the West. High levels of organised collaboration can only be found when individuality is given up to the purpose of those organising from above. We see this is in Army's all over the world.

It could be yes.

Finally, different cultures preserve themselves through the arts as much as by any other means. I am pleased to see that there are still great cultural differences for us all to enjoy across the cultural divides, despite globalisation. And with cultural differences come differences in the way we apprehend (sic) the world about is.

And new cultures arise within cultures and some flourish through recognition and funding and some flourish without it.


None of what I have written here is intended to be authoritative or final. It is merely illustrative.

ditto. Indeed there is nothing authoritative or final to be said on any of this.
 

kevin

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It may be that we have different subjective experiences of the world around us in our day to day lives. Our conversation is moving further and further from my original idea in both depth and scope. I do not want to spend a great deal of time discussing this area. It is just not pertinent to my interests right now. Courtesy and respect require that I reply.

What I was picking up on was a particular usage of 'we in the west do X those in the east do Y'

This is the problem with taking an overview position. Many of the complexities get lost. Similarly, by focusing on the complexity/detail, the overview is lost.

...where it is assumed those in the east are altogether less logical more spiritual, less logical or materialist values more spiritual values. That I can no longer go along with especially as I view some social/cultural progress in 'the west' as issuing from the best of values, the equality of homosexuals. the freedom of women for example. When I see cultures in some parts of the east where girls are expected to marry an older man at 13 I'm really not buying 'yes the east is so much more in touch with the spirit'. I don't think that's the case.

Those were not my assumptions and certainly not my beliefs. Also, I made no comparative value judgements.

My view of the East being fundamentally both more spiritual and less logical were shattered over thirty years ago when I travelled in India. Those outmoded beliefs were simply Western myths of the time. The WWWeb has closed the information gap quite considerably. I am pointing to a difference in the core cultures between the two in a quite bounded manner. I have said nothing about better and worse.

Well it depends who's culture you are talking about. I guarantee a very large proportion of women in the west actually do embrace astrology ( not sure that's a good thing even though I do astrology I tire of the fatalistic cookbook interpretations) and other approaches as a part of their personal culture. Indeed where I live we are saturated with it.

Where do you get the figures that that there are 'very few'. I feel if I stopped every 5th person on the street in the UK I'd find a whole host of beliefs about the interconnectedness of things and such. Again that's not always for the best, these ideas can be corrupted but I really don't think one can say with any certainty there's just 1 percent I think you're way off there since what portion of the population are you talking about ? I think there is a gender divide in the UK for example you'd find more women than men with such leanings but that's another matter.

Brighton? Stroud? Parts of Devon? There are islands where these beliefs are more commonly held. Nowhere I have ever lived, or worked.

My statements are based on experience and observation, not objective data. However, if these values and beliefs were more established then wouldn't they be more prevalent in the main stream media? Looking at the Tarot Assoc. of the British Isles they have 87 active members.

If these ways of thinking were more accepted wouldn't it be acceptable to raise them at a meeting at work when they are relevant? Most would say that would be a quick way of ending one’s career.

In China and Japan it’s not so unusual to use the Yijing at a board meeting. I remember well a Western businessman's comments, some thirty years ago, that in the middle of a board meeting with Mitsubishi (one of the largest Japanese Corporations) they stopped and used Yijing to get a better insight. My brother brought a board meeting to a standstill in Shanghai when he referred to a Yijing reading he had done. Later they told him that he earned a very deep respect from them that day and that in the meetings recess they too had consulted the Yijing. These were international business people with science and business qualifications from China, UK and the U.S.

There is a good deal of fatalism in eastern thought too which actually can inhibit cultural change for the better.

Yes, more so in countries with Budhism and Hinduism as the core religions and perhaps N.Korea for other reasons. But we are generalising here?


When you say 'our western way of thinking' I'm not denying the existence of the broad difference between east and west but I do find it far too broad and scarcely inclusive of our entire population in 'the west'. I mean if we think in terms of people, what people in the west only think in terms of causality. For a start there's a Tarot reader on every street (female generally) there's the whole spiritualist movement which still happens in halls everywhere, countless workshops on reincarnation/aura reading/palm reading. Countless festivals for fairies/witches/druids.

It is not possible to speak globally and also be inclusive of the exceptions. The two are mutually exclusive.

Yes, the increased popularity of these approaches is encouraging. I believe that in the UK many are in a process of re-possessing our spiritual lives from the hegemony of the Church. Though I hold to what I have said above regarding popularity. For example there are only an estimated 42,000 Neo-Pagans in the UK.

Isn't the whole concept of karma and the entire corruption of that concept, the caste system all based on causal thinking. Okay not in the sense you mean.

That very much depends on how causal is defined. However, in my previous post I went to some lengths to show that causal thinking has always been a part of human thought, everywhere. Additionally there is the complication of religious ideas being politically extended to oppress people. The historical God given right of Kings and Queens in the UK being a good example.

And yet do ideas of mystical interrealtionships of all things make a kinder more equal, more just society? I don't think so. I only say this because when I hear 'we in the west' I usually hear it as pejorative to the west. I get the impression 'the east' is being held up as way ahead spiritually as if anyone in the east is in touch with God and in the west we aren't and of course that's too crude a distinction.

Again, this is not a point I have made. Spirituality is intrinsic to the human condition. Though it would appear to be stronger in some and not others, no matter what part of the world they are from.

As to 'mystical' values making us a more equal/moral etc

The ideas? No. However internalising the connectedness and living it every day? Yes. It is hard to hate someone and do things to cause them harm when you see them as part of a connected whole. Empathy starts from feeling a connection to others, on many levels. And, good comes from it.

I wouldn't say referring to 'the east' 'the west' is silly I just think those terms can't just be thrown out there as being sufficient an explanation for certain things. Some qualifiers are needed, more specificity. In Jung's time he tended to use the terms a fair amount I think but that time has passed where we can do that with no other references for our argument IMO.

I think my previous post evidenced that there are sufficient core differences for the terms East and West to still have some currency in the context in which I was using it. There is nothing pejorative in this.

Though perhaps it would have been better if I had restricted my generalisation a little.

Yes the US is very different culturally from Europe as France is to the UK as Bradford is to Penzance. I'm not arguing against these broad cultural differences arising from history, tradition, economy, experience I'm only saying I can no longer hear the term 'we in the west' etc as being very meaningful. It does need qualifying.

This is the road which can lead to a point where a simple post get's so full of sub definitions, qualifications and apologias that the message get's lost as the reader falls asleep. Or, that we deal only in detail and never refer to the larger picture.

The context of generalisations gives some definition and boundaries.

Often I'll notice with diviners of more eastern background their way with Yi will be highly fatalistic, much more in the realm of fortune telling than some of their western counterparts. The reason for that one might say is the cultural background against which the divination occurs is far less self determining than in 'the west' and this will be tied up with economic necessities as well as tradition and so on.

My blue text colouring. I rest my case. These are natural ways to express ideas.

However, I disagree. In India the consulting the Astrologer to find the most auspicious day for a wedding or other undertaking refutes the idea of fatalism. So too in China.

Thank you for your detailed replies. They have caused me to consider many interesting things. Not the least that using diviners or divination tools might be very different from internalising the experience with non causal connections becoming a core part of an individuals daily way of being.

Though I have tried to put the evidence for my case clearly it does not mean that I reject your position. We clearly have different experiences and perceptions. We may just have to agree to differ.

That said it is interesting that neither of us has drawn acausal thought into this conversation. I wonder what that dynamic between us here has been? Yijing tells me that it is one of Kan the ‘Flowing Water’ beneath Kun ‘Thunder’. Hx.40.

Be well.
 

Trojina

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It may be that we have different subjective experiences of the world around us in our day to day lives. Our conversation is moving further and further from my original idea in both depth and scope. I do not want to spend a great deal of time discussing this area. It is just not pertinent to my interests right now. Courtesy and respect require that I reply.

Nah, you don't have to reply out of respect. Generally here when people lose interest they just stop replying. I'm not that interested, I just posed a question, I wasn't expecting you to fully wrap it all up so to speak

My statements are based on experience and observation, not objective data. However, if these values and beliefs were more established then wouldn't they be more prevalent in the main stream media? Looking at the Tarot Assoc. of the British Isles they have 87 active members.

If these ways of thinking were more accepted wouldn't it be acceptable to raise them at a meeting at work when they are relevant? Most would say that would be a quick way of ending one’s career.

True and in many ways rightly so. I wouldn't welcome being hired on the basis of a tarot reading

In China and Japan it’s not so unusual to use the Yijing at a board meeting. I remember well a Western businessman's comments, some thirty years ago, that in the middle of a board meeting with Mitsubishi (one of the largest Japanese Corporations) they stopped and used Yijing to get a better insight. My brother brought a board meeting to a standstill in Shanghai when he referred to a Yijing reading he had done. Later they told him that he earned a very deep respect from them that day and that in the meetings recess they too had consulted the Yijing. These were international business people with science and business qualifications from China, UK and the U.S.

Aha


Yes, the increased popularity of these approaches is encouraging. I believe that in the UK many are in a process of re-possessing our spiritual lives from the hegemony of the Church. Though I hold to what I have said above regarding popularity. For example there are only an estimated 42,000 Neo-Pagans in the UK.

I'm not sure if it's encouraging given so much of these approaches in this culture are orientated in fact to spiritual materialism, dogmas of the 'law of attraction' and such. I don't know if you can count pagans in numbers, I don't think they necessarily will join things to be counted.



Thank you for your detailed replies. They have caused me to consider many interesting things. Not the least that using diviners or divination tools might be very different from internalising the experience with non causal connections becoming a core part of an individuals daily way of being.

Though I have tried to put the evidence for my case clearly it does not mean that I reject your position. We clearly have different experiences and perceptions. We may just have to agree to differ.

It started out as just a question about terms like 'we in the west' and such, I was just inviting reflection not seeking to take any particular position or hold you to one.

That said it is interesting that neither of us has drawn acausal thought into this conversation. I wonder what that dynamic between us here has been? Yijing tells me that it is one of Kan the ‘Flowing Water’ beneath Kun ‘Thunder’. Hx.40.

Release, if you have nothing to say move on and if you have something to say it. It's unusually polite of you to answer me so thouroughly most people here just don't bother if they get tired. I do that too at times because otherwise things can go on and on and on when really neither party are that invested. I wasn't intending to challenge you, it was just a question. Thanks for your replies.....we can leave it be now :cool:


Also we are a very long way off topic so ought to leave it be now any way
 

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