Memorizing the I Ching 26. Ta Ch'u / The Taming Power of the Great

rosada · May 20, 2007

It seems "Danger" is being interpreted here as some sort of outside threat, like a bear. But is this really what the line means? I thought it was more about self control. Like a bunch bouncy kindegardeners on the first day of school pushing and shoving to get into the classroom. The teacher firmly commands, "Line up! No naughty children allowed." and everyone gets it that they better desist goofing off or they're going to be in Big Trouble/Danger. So it is time to control self, because it is the lack of self control - not an outside danger - that is creating the trouble.

rosada · May 20, 2007

I guess the bear story fits if were saying the danger is the bear, and the way to avoid this danger at hand is to become silent or stop whatever one is doing that might attracked his attention. But my point is, the line is emphasizing staying out of trouble by controling their impulses. Perhaps this refers to the "fight or flight" impulses of the first chakra, and by not spending one's energies by doing either, the energies then move up the spine to the higher chakras?

martin · May 20, 2007

Perhaps - using the metaphor of line 3 - line 1 warns against attempting to saddle a wild horse?
Better try to tame the beast a bit more first, otherwise ...

bruce_g · May 20, 2007

Consider "the horse whisperer", and I'd caution not confusing 26 with 29.

I moved to Arizona for the specific purpose of taming someone's 5 wild dogs. And when I say wild, I mean wild. Two of them ran with the coyotes. A third, Zeus the Rot, was the schoolyard bully (not pictured) and Bandit (also not pictured) wouldn't go anywhere near humans. Shadow (the one on the right) and Zeus fought constantly, often drawing blood. Chase (the one on the left) was the queen bitch of the lot; even Zeus didn't mess with her... completely crazy. They all looked a mess.

The owners were harsh shouters, and the more they shouted, the less tame their dogs became. I never once raised my voice to these dogs, choosing instead to speak always in a calm, relaxed voiced.

Within two months, about the time these shots were taken, the dogs stopped fighting. They became calm, just like their trainer. Bandit, the one who would come nowhere near humans, was now living in my little trailer. The owners were amazed at the change. Perhaps most significant is that the owners stopped shouting and fighting with one another. I left after one year, and moved into my own place, when I got Mojo.

Mojo's last owners must have been a rowdy bunch, the kind that confuses the dickens out of a dog. He didn't know which way was up or down, when I first got him out of the pound, and the scar on his head told a story of an out of control owner. The only way to tame Mojo was the same way I tamed the other five dogs: being relaxed and friendly.

View attachment 286

Brad has for line 1 "This will get harsh. Worthwhile to quit." The harsh, wild beast inside is tamed no differently than these previously wild dogs.

bruce_g · May 20, 2007

martin said:
Perhaps - using the metaphor of line 3 - line 1 warns against attempting to saddle a wild horse?
Better try to tame the beast a bit more first, otherwise ...

Crossed posts.

bruce_g · May 20, 2007

http://www.beulahland.com/abouthw/index.htm

dobro p · May 20, 2007

rosada said:
It seems "Danger" is being interpreted here as some sort of outside threat, like a bear. But is this really what the line means? I thought it was more about self control. Like a bunch bouncy kindegardeners on the first day of school pushing and shoving to get into the classroom. The teacher firmly commands, "Line up! No naughty children allowed." and everyone gets it that they better desist goofing off or they're going to be in Big Trouble/Danger. So it is time to control self, because it is the lack of self control - not an outside danger - that is creating the trouble.

It can refer to *any* kind of danger - outer or inner. You know that.

dobro p · May 20, 2007

rosada said:
I guess the bear story fits if were saying the danger is the bear, and the way to avoid this danger at hand is to become silent or stop whatever one is doing that might attracked his attention. But my point is, the line is emphasizing staying out of trouble by controling their impulses. Perhaps this refers to the "fight or flight" impulses of the first chakra, and by not spending one's energies by doing either, the energies then move up the spine to the higher chakras?

Possibly, but that's not what the line's saying. The line says there's danger and it's to your advantage to end that danger. What you're restraining here is the danger element. What the energy does is *not* commented on. It may move up the chakras or it may move itself into a mountain lion that then goes and bites the bear in the bum. We don't know. We don't need to know. All we need to know is that there's danger in the situation and it's to our advantage, not to endure it, not to go through it, but to end it. Simple.

rosada · May 20, 2007

Hi dobro,

"Danger is at hand. It furthers one to desist."

Desist: To cease doing something.

Thus I'm reading this as meaning the danger exists because the person is doing something, and the person needs to abstain (forbear!) from continuing with what they are doing. The point is, some here seem to be putting the emphasis on the idea of danger, and are saying the IC is advising one to end the danger by doing what ever is necessary - whether that be by standing still, throwing rocks or running for cover. I am saying it reads to me that the emphasis is on the importance of self control, that self control is the way to deal with the danger - and this would mean not throwing rocks or running for cover.

Posting again what Wilhelm says about this line,

"A man wishes to make a vigorous advance, but circumstances present an obstacle. He sees himself held back firmly."

Okay, let's say we wish to go into our cabin, but a bear is blocking the path.

"If he should attempt to force an advance, it would lead him into misfortune."

So definitely NOT the time to throw rocks or try to out run the bear.

"Therefore it is better for him to COMPOSE himself and to wait until an outlet is offered for release of his stored up energies."

So here is the crux of the matter. We could say the bear is the danger, but the bear is just a bear, and not a danger if the man can compose himself. It is the man's inner state that is creating the situation, the desire to get to his cabin, and not the bear that is the real problem. If the man can be calm and patient and wait, an "outlet will be offered" - the bear wanders off.

So anyway, my point is that the I Ching is giving advice in this line not about avoiding danger, but about controling ones inner self to survive a dangerous situation. Perhaps we've gotten off on a wrong track trying to use the bear metafore to illustrate this point. I think a more suitable example would be if one were tied up in traffic and prone to road rage. Then the line could read, "Danger is at hand, you're stuck and could blow your top. It furthers one to desist (stop fuming)."

Anyway, I'm thinking if we just read this and come away with the idea that danger is to be avoided, we're missing the point, which is that this danger is to be avoided by being composed.

Bruce,
Really enjoyed your pictures and the comment that the owners themselves calmed down when the dogs were gentled. My neighbor has three huge dogs in her home and I can see how their constant tusseling has put everyone in the house on edge. Perhaps I can say something if the opportunity presents itself. Also enjoyed the article about the horse whisperer. The suggestions for training the horses by always giving them an opening, an outlet, and about giving them commands they can agree with gives me ideas for working with the kids.

dobro p · May 20, 2007

You translate it as 'desist' and I translate it as 'end'.

Once again, the way one translates the original determines the meaning that's put on the line. I don't believe Wilhelm any more than I believe me or Bradford or Karcher or you. It's just choices of words and meanings.

Why do you put such faith in Wilhelm? There's no reason for that. He's poetic and inspiring, but beauty and exaltation are only two factors for trusting such a translation. There are other factors, none of which is so, uh...emotional.

getojack · May 20, 2007

Rosada, where's the confusion? You are the person encountering the bear. You are also the bear. It's an analogy, see? All the line says is that there is a danger... it doesn't say if the danger is you or the wild animal, and that's because in any threatening situation there are two parties involved. Seeing the danger as entirely a product of yourself misses the point.

Dobro, you say yourself that you need to restrain the danger, even though you previously said you need to end the danger by walking away from it... which is it? I'm confused about your perspective on this line.

p.s. Oh yeah, can we move on to line 2 now? 101 posts and only to line 1?
p.p.s. I think we're beating a dead horse, instead of taming it...

Trojina · May 20, 2007

Well for once I'm with Dobro on this one (I think) The beauty of the Yi is it can apply to a million situations so to my mind line 1 could apply as much to an actual bear posing an actual danger as to an inner destructive impulse. If you limit the meaning only to an inner dynamic you narrow down the full range of possible meaning.

In line 1 you haven't got enough accumulated resources to handle the danger - so you just do your best to stay of it.

getojack · May 20, 2007

I was just trying to clarify what Dobro's position actually is... I'm still not sure.

Ah yes, going back to previous posts, I see Dobro said there's more than one way to skin a cat (or tame a wild beast). So that goes along with the multiple bears theory above. :rofl:

frank_r · May 20, 2007

toganm said:
Just a thought why not use the sovereign hexagrams, the first one, for all. As my understanding, for the Chinese there is no difference to the body, mind, sprit (shen). They are united and they are what makes a person authentic and manifest what he/she is destined to.

Togan

Hallo Togan,

First you are absolutely right when you are saying, that there is no difference between the body and the mind. It's all the spirit(shen) is a sense. So it's not the best way to make the diferenciation between the physical and mental aspects.

But still I think you can look to the meridians through different eyes. It's like in astrology, you have the twelve astrological signs and you have the 12 houses where all the planets can stand. Together they make the big picture complete.
You can also see the meridians in this way, at least thats my opinion.
In acupuncture the 60 Shu points (the most important 5 element points) are from the elbow to the fingertips (heaven), and from the knee to the toes(earth). So they say in a way these parts of the body belong not to yourself but more to the earth and heaven.
Like the first and last line of the hexagram also stand outside time. And also have a special place in the hexagrams.

The sovereign hexagrams are the ones expressing all 6 lines and the 12 nucleur hexagrams are the expression of the inner core, the inner 4 lines. They have a connection with the four wind directions. They are the expresion of the spirit not looking to the time aspect, the karmic part(the Shen) that goes on to a next life. In this way you can also express the 12 meridians and will give you another sort of information about the 12 meridians.

Trojina · May 20, 2007

(though I'm not sure throwing rocks at bears actually counts as staying out of trouble - in this instance I think 26.1 might be saying one doesn't have either the quality/numbers of rocks or rock throwing capacity to get out of danger so just stay away from the bear - okay - unless its Yogi bear in which case a bun or a cookie should calm him down)

bruce_g · May 20, 2007

It's too late to stay away from the danger. In line 1, you're already there. There's no question that desisting is the instruction. All I was trying to point out is how to desist, staying within the context of 26's theme of raising/taming big beasts, which for some reason seems to be translating to some as 29 - danger.

rosada · May 20, 2007

Okay just for giggles and kicks, how about we each post our own favorite translation of the line here? We're not trying to say whose viewpoint is better, we're just trying to know the other's point of view. (and I'll come back this afternoon and post line 26.2, getojack!)

26.1
Don't aggrivate the situation.
-zawa

bruce_g · May 20, 2007

I don't have a favorite. Wilhelm, Bradford, LiSe, Richter, Legge all seem to say the same thing about line 1, to me.

getojack · May 20, 2007

bruce_g said:
It's too late to stay away from the danger. In line 1, you're already there. There's no question that desisting is the instruction. All I was trying to point out is how to desist, staying within the context of 26's theme of raising/taming big beasts, which for some reason seems to be translating to some as 29 - danger.

1 yang: When there is danger, it is beneficial to stop.

-Cleary

rosada · May 20, 2007

That's fine, Bruce, then post all five. Or put 26.1 into your own words. Point is, in order to ascend and experience the beauty of 26.6, I'm thinking we need to be in a state of conciousness that can allow all these differing perspectives. So far it seems to me we're having a hard time simply sharing, "This is how I see it," without the added implication, "So the way you see it is inferior." The lesson here is that we aren't going to advance, we aren't going to experience/survive the kind of mind boggling broader understanding that only comes with group vision, unless we can know/tolerate each other's individual visions.
--
Thanks, getojack!

bruce_g · May 20, 2007

getojack said:
1 yang: When there is danger, it is beneficial to stop.

-Cleary

Yes, danger within the context of 26.

Just for grins, I counted the number of times Wilhelm used the word "danger" in his actual texts, not counting commentaries, where he uses it a great deal more often. A quick count totaled 30 times within 25 different hexagrams.

bruce_g · May 20, 2007

I wonder if one or more of our illustrious translators would be willing to expound on the word(s), which we use for the word "danger"?

rosada · May 20, 2007

You inspired me to read Cleary, getojack. I think his further explanation is worth noting. Also, after reading his take on 26.1 from The Taoist I Ching - which I think is the one you are quoting - I read what he had to say in The Tao of Organization and have posted that further down...

26. Nurturance of the Great
First yang: There is danger; it is beneficial to stop.
EXPLANATION
In the beginning of nurturance of the great, if you promote strength there will be misfortune, if you still strength there will be good fortune; there is danger - it is beneficial to stop. Just at the point of givng up striving and entering into nonstriving, this is nurturing strength in the beginning.
-Cleary.

Other visions:

26.Great Domesticating Powers
FIRST NINE
He is in a dangerous situation. It is wise to stop.
A young man often feels he must rush ahead with his plans.
You must learn to slow down and thus avoid trouble.
-Palmer

26.Control, Harnessing Power, Taking the Reins
LINE 1
Danger is at hand, desist.
You are not strong enough to rush ahead. Back off and avoid trouble. A powerful friend [referance to 26.4?] may advise you to slow down in order to avoid misfortune.
-Sorrell

26. Great Gains
Nine on line 1:
The situation is perilous. It is advantageous to remain calm and wait.
Peace can be deceptive. The danger has not been completely eliminated. Remain cautious. Do not be taken by surprise.
-Moran

26. Restraint by the Strong
At the outset, the man is confronted with dangerous obstacles. He should not attempt to advance rashly but remain composed.
-Siu

26. Great Restraint
Bottom Line: You are strong and correctly positioned; therefore, you wish to advance vigorously with your comrades. However, there is danger at hand from a highly placed person (line 26.4?) who will stop you if youattempt to advance. It will be to your advantage to impose restraint upon yourself rather than to be stopped by another. During the time when you are stopped and waiting for a better time to advance, you will grow in strength and virtue if you apply yourself properly.
-wu wei

26. Great Accumulation
First yang: There is danger. It is beneficial to desist.
In the hexagram of GREAT ACCUMULATION, the MOUNTAIN trigram stops the HEAVEN (creative) trigram. Therefore the lines of the HEAVEN trigram construe their meaning in terms of being stopped, while the lines of the MOUNTAIN trigram construe in terms of stopping. [So Heaven is Being Stopped, Mountain is doing the Stopping]
The first line is positive, firm, in the body of strength, and is at the bottom. This represents those who are CERTAIN TO ADVANCE UPWARD. But the fourth yin is above, stopping it. How can it oppose the force of higher rank? If it goes ahead and encroaches on the powerful fourth yin above, there will be danger. So it is beneficial to desist and NOT GO AHEAD.
-Cleary, I Ching The Tao of Organization.
--

So now I'm thinking at 26.1 The power of the bear trumps the power of the boy. Best not to press your case just now, even if it is your cabin...

dobro p · May 20, 2007

getojack said:
Dobro, you say yourself that you need to restrain the danger, even though you previously said you need to end the danger by walking away from it... which is it? I'm confused about your perspective on this line.

You end danger by walking away from it or around it (if you see the bear before it sees you, leave the vicinity). You end danger by destroying the dangerous thing (shoot the bear). You end danger by restraining your own desires sometimes (not going for a walk in bear country). There are different ways of ending danger. I see all these variations as part of the overall 'great restraint' idea.

I think the 'restraint of self' idea is the most sophisticated and useful, but that's because I favor a psycho-spiritual approach with the Yi (sorry about the big word - it's shorthand for something I don't want to describe in 200 words, cuz you said you were getting tired of this particular discussion). But again and again, I'm so impressed by how flexible the Yi is, by how its messages can apply to many, many issues of a very different nature. I can see how 26.1 might be a message to replace a leaky roof on your house. Not a bear in sight, and no self-restraint required.

rosada · May 20, 2007

Nine in the second place means:
The axletrees are taken from the wagon

Here advance is checked just as in the third line of THE TAMING POWER OF THE SMALL (9), However, in the latter the restraining force is slight; thus a conflict arises between the propulsive and the restraining movement, as aresult of which the spoke fall out of the wagon wheels, while here the restraining force is absolutely superior; hence no struggle takes place. One submits and removes the axletrees from the wagon - in other words, contents himself with waiting. In this way energy accumulates for a vigorous advance later on.

Sparhawk · May 20, 2007

rosada said:
Nine in the second place means:
The axletrees are taken from the wagon

It still puzzles me Wilhelm choose "axletrees" when in fact it is the mounting (輹) of the axles what is removed. I know, it is implied that without axle mounts there cannot be an axle attached, but still... Hmmm.

L

dobro p · May 20, 2007

rosada said:
Nine in the second place means:
The axletrees are taken from the wagon

Here advance is checked just as in the third line of THE TAMING POWER OF THE SMALL (9), However, in the latter the restraining force is slight; thus a conflict arises between the propulsive and the restraining movement, as aresult of which the spoke fall out of the wagon wheels, while here the restraining force is absolutely superior; hence no struggle takes place.

Not only is there no struggle, but there is no restraint actually. ('Restraint' means effort is being applied to hold a force back; in this case there's no effort whatsoever.) So either the Chinese took a very broad view of what 'restraint' comprised, or were happy to include things, ideas and situations parallel to restraint in the lines of 26.

getojack · May 21, 2007

As in line 1, where there is no mention of where the danger is coming from (inside or outside), here there is no mention of who took the axles from the wagon. It's obvious that they didn't just fall off by themselves... they were taken. So did the passenger do it? Not likely. The driver?... possibly. Armed bandits? Could be. But in any case, the passenger is probably being "taken for a ride" by someone.

rosada · May 21, 2007

Guy Damian Knight:
The difference between your power of forward motion and the power that impedes you is huge. You know that it is futile to attempt to make an impression on such a formidable restraining force. You cannot win. You are forced to wait for your own good.

Thomas Cleary:
The second line is stopped by the fifth yin, so its momentum cannot take it forward. The fifth is based on the power of its high position, which cannot be encroached upon. Though the second line is firm and strong, so its position is centered it does not slip up in regard to advancing or stopping. THOUGH IT WISHES TO ADVANCE, ASSESSING ITS POWER AND FINDING IT INSUFFICIENT, IT THUS STOPS AND DOES NOT GO AHEAD, LIKE A CAR WITH ITS AXLE REMOVED.

Stephen Karcher:
Forward movement stopped, you cluster round. Draw up the wagons and make contact. Nurture things. You need a show of beauty and bravery to release the bound energy.

Sparhawk · May 21, 2007

getojack said:
As in line 1, where there is no mention of where the danger is coming from (inside or outside), here there is no mention of who took the axles from the wagon. It's obvious that they didn't just fall off by themselves... they were taken. So did the passenger do it? Not likely. The driver?... possibly. Armed bandits? Could be. But in any case, the passenger is probably being "taken for a ride" by someone.

Here is one way to see it... Think of it as leaving your Aston Martin, unguarded, in a seedy part of town...

Perhaps one of the meanings of the line is to call on people to pay attention to their environment least the environment pays undue attention to them and their possessions...

L

Memorizing the I Ching 26. Ta Ch'u / The Taming Power of the Great

visitor

visitor

(deceased)

bruce_g

Guest

bruce_g

Guest

bruce_g

Guest

visitor

visitor

visitor

visitor

visitor

Supporter

visitor

visitor

Supporter

bruce_g

Guest

visitor

bruce_g

Guest

visitor

visitor

bruce_g

Guest

bruce_g

Guest

visitor

visitor

visitor

One of those men your mother warned you about...

visitor

visitor

visitor

One of those men your mother warned you about...