Memorizing the I Ching 26. Ta Ch'u / The Taming Power of the Great

[Sparhawk]

The "ten thousand" part in li is a drawing of a scorpion...

LiSe

How cool is that? Now that I remember, isn't this that the character that Richard S. Cook based his doctoral dissertation on?

L

 

[Sparhawk]

Nope, just checked, it was "The Etymology of chen2， 辰" What I remember is that he concluded it was, originally, a depiction of a scorpion.

L

 

[rosada]

I assume everyone's read listner's thread on her nephew's college choice. An interesting example of 26.3

 

[rosada]

LiSe,
I sure hope you will continue to post these drawings and your take on the individual lines!
Does the 2nd picture represent a mountain?

 

[Sparhawk]

Does the 2nd picture represent a mountain?

From post #138:

厂, meaning "cliff; slope; factory; yard; depot; workhouse; works"

L

 

[charly]

Sparhawk:

It still puzzles me Wilhelm choose "axletrees" when in fact it is the mounting (輹) of the axles what is removed. I know, it is implied that without axle mounts there cannot be an axle attached, but still... Hmmm.

Whilhelm choose the hard to find «Achsenlager» that sometimes designates the support or the rollers, but may be anciently applied to the wooden wheel hub or to the bolt that secures the hub.

The «Achse» part means «axle» or eventually «tree». May be the neologism «axletree» were an apport from junguian Baynes, emerged by condensation (in psychoanalytical sense), like in dreams or like an unconscious lapsus, given de hard phalic shape of axes, trees and bolts and most of other mechanical devices.

Or perhaps Baynes thinks that could be an advice of taking off the axle/tree from the mounting since taking off the mounting could be less imaginable.

In my mexican spanish version Wilhelm/Baynes/Malke there is no «tree», only «axe».

 

[Sparhawk]

Whilhelm choose the hard to find «Achsenlager» that sometimes designates the support or the rollers, but may be anciently applied to the wooden wheel hub or to the bolt that secures the hub.

The «Achse» part means «axle» or eventually «tree». May be the neologism «axletree» were an apport from junguian Baynes, emerged by condensation (in psychoanalytical sense), like in dreams or like an unconscious lapsus, given de hard phalic shape of axes, trees and bolts and most of other mechanical devices.

Interesting note about the German word, "Achsenlager", thanks. As for "axletree" vs "axle", it is the latter that is a contraction of the of the former. "Axletree" is the old way to name it and "axle", in this case, would be the neologism (although "neologism" is not really the word that should be used since it is a natural evolution of existing language)

Main Entry: ax·le·tree
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
Etymology: Middle English axeltre, from Old Norse öxultremacron, from öxull axle + tremacron beam, tree -- more at AXIS, TREE
1 : a fixed bar or beam having bearings at its ends upon which the wheels (as of a carriage, cart, or wagon) revolve
2 obsolete : AXIS
​

Perhaps Baynes' idea, translating from German to English, was to use a word that would give a "classic and/or refined" feeling to the noun. Or perhaps, "axletree" was still in normal use back in the mid to late 1940's.

My issue is with "axle", per se. The Chinese character describes the "mounting" hardware of the "axle", not the "axle"... BTW, I like Karcher's take. I think "straps" may be closer to the way the axles were attached to an old carriage, over two thousand years ago.

Un abrazo,

Luis

 

[rosada]

The other day on the hex25. Innocence thread, I posted how my little four year old friend had hit his younger out of the blue and when I asked him why he innocently replied, "It seemed like a good idea at the time." I was so amused and dumbfounded by this answer that I simply told him not to do it again, but I really was perplexed because he wasn't being a smart Alec, he was really giving me a streight answer. Well yesterday after writing all these quotes on chariot driving and practicing defense daily I went over to the neighbors again and this time I popped in just as Dante was shouting to little brother Aramis, "Come on Aramis let's fight!" and the two of them rushed to the center of the room and started tustling like two puppies at play. I immediately recognize they were instinctivly practicing "defense daily" and that this was an agreed upon ritual between them. I was so glad I hadn't gone off on Dante when he originally gave me his explanation. This time I just made a point of telling Aramis that he did not have to play when he didn't want to and explained to both of then that if either one wanted to stop all they had to do was say, "Stop" and the other would have to stop. They agreed.

I think this advice to paractice chariot driving and defense DAILY is note worthy. There seems to be some lesson here that while I am working on honing skills to store up treasure, the study I do each day needs to be practiced that day. That simply storing up - memorizing - isn't enough. As I focus on a line each day, I find an object lesson of the line appears, a chance to practice it.

Btw, what is the chinese word picture for 26.3? The Scorpion representing the 10,000 things hidden in the mountain certainly helps with memorizing 26.2. It set me thinking of the tombs of the Pharohs and how supposedly a curse would befall whoever disturbed them and how indeed when some famous pyramid was opened an insect (scorpion?) bit the first man in and he died. Also, listners recounting her memory of her day at the race track with her Dad and how even though there was the horrific accident with the horse breaking it's leg and having to be put down, she still treasured the memory of the day - It makes me think that all the treasure stored up, all the different memories, experiences can be of all different qualities, but ultimately it's all good. Also thinking how originally in 26.1 one doesn't know what the day will bring, what we're getting into, but by being calm and still we then start to recognize the different qualities, options, in the moment 26.2 and can then recognize what is good, what to follow and what not to be attracted to - but this is a skill that must be practiced constantly - I can never say, "Now I know" because every day is different and my past experiences can only be references, to get through today I must look at today, thus 26.3.

 

[Sparhawk]

The little brothers are named Dante and Aramís? Well, I'd keep foils and quills away from them before they, playfully, poke an eye out of each other...

L

 

[martin]

The Chinese character describes the "mounting" hardware of the "axle", not the "axle"...
Luis

I think that is indeed what the German word 'Achsenlager' means.
The axle rotates in the 'Achsenlager'.
Corresponding English terms are perhaps 'axle box' and 'axle bearing'.
Looks like Wilhelm has it right then while Baynes is a bit off.

 

[Sparhawk]

I think that is indeed what the German word 'Achsenlager' means.
The axle rotates in the 'Achsenlager' (or 'Axiallager').
Corresponding English terms are perhaps 'axle box' and 'axle bearing'.
Looks like Wilhelm has it right then while Baynes is a bit off.

Aha!! Good one, Martin! I'm glad Wilhelm didn't chose wrong and it was a re-translation mistake.

Time to learn German?

L

 

[Sparhawk]

Thinking of it, just checked the Spanish version I have of Wilhelm (Wilhelm/Vogelmann) and it says:

Nueve en el segundo puesto significa:
Al carruaje se le quitan los bujes del eje.
​

A "buje" in Spanish means the piece where the axle rests and spins.

So, at least in this line, the Spanish translation is more accurate.

Luis

 

[martin]

I deleted 'Axiallager' in my post because when I thought more about it I realized that it may have a more general meaning.
But my German is not what it once was. Rarely speak or read it these days. My English is improving a bit though.

 

[getojack]

Interesting. That changes the meaning of the line quite a bit. Now it seems more like,
"The carriage loses its axle support." Could be a metaphor for some central figure in an institution losing their support and the organization coming to a halt.

 

[martin]

Richter has 'spokes' in line 2, instead of 'axle bearing' or whatever it is. And his rendering of line 3 is also different.
He translates 'rì xián yú wèi' as 'day idle cart guard' and interpretes it as 'carts and guards stand idle for a day'!

I suppose that is what Wilhelm renders as 'Practice chariot driving and armed defence daily'?

 

[bruce_g]

Um, what practical difference does it make whether the axle or the axle support is missing? Either way, the cart is immobilized.

 

[martin]

You wouldn't say that, Bruce, if you were the cart!

 

[getojack]

Hey, don't put the cart before the horse... If the carraige lost its axle, then that's the loss of a central part of the vehicle. If it lost the axle support, then it would suggest getting support for the central part of the vehicle instead of replacing it. There'd also be a monetary difference in terms of cost of parts, manual labor, etc.

 

[Sparhawk]

Um, what practical difference does it make whether the axle or the axle support is missing? Either way, the cart is immobilized.

Gasp!! Let's split some hairs...

A. Yes, it is true, the cart cannot move either way.
B. In divination the difference is important for two reasons:

1. It is what the writers/compilers of the Yijing, specifically, meant to say.
2. It means that without the "axle mounts", ergo the "support of a situation", it is irrelevant if the "axle", ergo the way forward for the situation, is available and in good condition. It means that something is wrong with, perhaps, an irreparable part of the carriage. Think of it as having a spare wheel in your car but not having a whole wheel train in your trunk. (ergo, ergo, ergo... )
​

The difference is subtle but I find it meaningful in divination.

L

 

[rosada]

Martin, Thank you for the delightful observations about the boys names. I had been wondering how to put together the archetypes of Dante and ONE Musketeer. Now I get an image of not two swords crossing, but a sword and a giant quill. Also, this will give me a good line as time goes on and Aramis overtakes Dante size wise (I want to warn Dante, "Dante hit your little brother, he's gonna be about 4 inches taller than you in a few years!!") I'll say, "Remember, the pen is mightier than the sword!"

--
I think the difference between the axle and the axle strap is that a broken axle implies an accident, where as a removed axle strap implies an intentional act.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hey, don't put the cart before the horse... If the carraige lost its axle, then that's the loss of a central part of the vehicle. If it lost the axle support, then it would suggest getting support for the central part of the vehicle instead of replacing it. There'd also be a monetary difference in terms of cost of parts, manual labor, etc.

Yes, pretty much what I tried to say...

L

 

[Sparhawk]

Martin, Thank you for the delightful observations about the boys names.

Ahem...

L

 

[Sparhawk]

I think the difference between the axle and the axle strap is that a broken axle implies an accident, where as a removed axle strap implies an intentional act.

Great observation, BTW!!

 

[martin]

Thank you, Rosada!
What's the matter, Luis, do you feel immobilized?

 

[Sparhawk]

Thank you, Rosada!
What's the matter, Luis, do you feel immobilized?

No, I feel plagiarized...

L

 

[bruce_g]

I don’t agree with this. Mounts aren’t called for to support the axel, the axel is to be intentionally disabled. Bradford says it’s the work of vandalism, and so he supports your view, I guess. But that’s not how I’ve experienced or understand line 2. To me, the line is still within the context of “taming”, and that tells me the axel or support (still don’t see a practical difference, even if I was in the cart, Martin) is to be intentionally immobilized. It’s like roping the legs out from the calf. That boy ain’t goin’ nowhere. It’s something that’s up to us to do, not some frisky vandals.

Anyway, that’s how I see it.

 

[bruce_g]

Sometimes I think we can learn more about 26 by hanging around a farm/ranch than by studying the Yi.

 

[martin]

I was thinking, the carriage doesn't go anywhere in line 2, but it can still be used for practice.
If you imagine an inexperienced driver who learns how to put the horses in front of the carriage and so on, the carriage is better immobilized, otherwise accidents could happen.
So perhaps that's the meaning of the line, it's practice time? Practice continues in line 3.

 

[getojack]

I don’t agree with this. Mounts aren’t called for to support the axel, the axel is to be intentionally disabled. Bradford says it’s the work of vandalism, and so he supports your view, I guess. But that’s not how I’ve experienced or understand line 2. To me, the line is still within the context of “taming”, and that tells me the axel or support (still don’t see a practical difference, even if I was in the cart, Martin) is to be intentionally immobilized. It’s like roping the legs out from the calf. That boy ain’t goin’ nowhere. It’s something that’s up to us to do, not some frisky vandals.

Anyway, that’s how I see it.

Why?

What I mean is, why would you intentionally disable your own cart? Or do you mean disabling someone else's cart, hence you being the vandal?

Anyway, you're not completely immobilized... remember the horses? They didn't have horseless carriages in those days. So you just ride a horse to the local Cart and Axle Company to get some spare parts and you're back in business.

 

[rosada]

Sorry about that Sparhawk! Thank YOU for your insights on the names!