Memorizing the I Ching 26. Ta Ch'u / The Taming Power of the Great

[lightofreason]

Line 2
"One pushes too hard. OR One pushes too hard. One must avoid excess and remain centred."

with/fom holding firm (26) comes facading (22).

The controlling hexagram of line position 2 is hexagram 07 (focus on containment, the uniform, the 'army' etc)

We can describe the infrastructure through taking the 27-ness of the dodecagram:

111001-101001 26-22
100001-100001 27-27 (27-ness = infrastructure)
------------------
011000-001000 = 46-15 - modesty in a context of getting more entangled. This suggests a generic vibe of trying to get entangled too quickly, too rushed and the need for modesty to calm things down. The REFINEMENT of that 'vibe' is in the form of 26-22.

Chris.

 

[getojack]

Line 2
"One pushes too hard. OR One pushes too hard...

I don't think the meaning of 26.2 is either "one pushes too hard" or "one pushes too hard." More like "one doesn't push hard, and gets nowhere" and/or "one pushes hard and gets nowhere." Either way, you ain't goin' nowhere without some axles on your wagon.

 

[rosada]

Woke up with an insight about 26.1 this morning. Consider that the key lesson of Great Restraint is that it is our inner knowingness that gives understanding. We can read all the books and travel the world, but unless we hear the still small voice within, we just wont get it. So how do we connect with the inner feeling? The first step says 26.1, is become quiet. 26.1 reminds us that in all our worldly situations, no matter how benign they may appear, Danger is at hand, and that one may not be able to immediately recognize it from outer signals, so one needs to calm down to feel what the energies are. I think of a job I once had where you never knew if the boss was very unstable and you never knew when she might snap and go off on someone. We all got to be very good at being reaaal quiet when she would first walk in and we'd all know if this was going to be One of Those Days. Karcher says about this line "Adversity {his word for 'Danger'}. maleviolent demon. It is a spirit or ghost that seeks revenge by inflicting suffering upon the living. Pacifiying or exorcizing such a spirit can have a healing effect." So this would explain why we are told "Danger is at hand." I mean, you can't see the ghost, you can't see the danger at this point, so you are advised to calm down, slow down.

 

[getojack]

It still puzzles me Wilhelm choose "axletrees" when in fact it is the mounting (輹) of the axles what is removed. I know, it is implied that without axle mounts there cannot be an axle attached, but still... Hmmm.

L

That's nothing. I just checked a link on another thread to an online pinyin translation by Greg Richter, where he uses a completely different character and pronunciation, fu2 (輻), not fu4 (輹), translating it as "spokes." Are you using Brad's Matrix translation? It would be nice to know which character was actually used in the Yi Jing. Not having a library of Chinese Yi Jing texts, I trust the character is actually fu4, since it fits better with other translations. Now, how you translate that character into English is a completely different story, but English is my native language I don't even know what an "axletree" is.

 

[Sparhawk]

Are you using Brad's Matrix translation? It would be nice to know which character was actually used in the Yi Jing. Not having a library of Chinese Yi Jing texts, I trust the character is actually fu4, since it fits better with other translations. Now, how you translate that character into English is a completely different story, but English is my native language I don't even know what an "axletree" is.

Actually, I used the Harvard-Yenching Zhouyi that's available at Steve Marshall's site and then looking up the character in my dictionaries...

九二 輿說輹。

jiu3 er4 yu2 shuo1 fu4​

I checked Brad's version after the fact and he has:

A carriage relieved of (its) axle mounts​

I trust Brad's better on this...

As for "axletree," I know... Had to look that one up in the Merriam-Webster to make sure it wasn't a tree growing out of the wheels...

L
L

 

[rosada]

I think you make a good point, dobro, that in this situation there is no "restraint", the car simply wont go. It's as if the restraint is so great here you don't even try to fight it, you accept it and make the best of it and thus a 26.2 situation morphs into a 22, Grace. Yesterday afternoon I went to visit my neighbor and was momentarily stopped by seeing a strange car parked in her driveway. 26.1Danger? Should I desist? No, I checked my inner feelings and knew that going forward into a new situation was better than being bored at home. Besides, perhaps it was someone who just dropping off a goat or coming to get eggs and would be leaving momentarily.... Nope, the car was not moving, 26.2. Finally accepted the situation was not going to change, crossed the stream that divides our two properties and went on up to her house. Turns out my neighbor had made a new friend, a delightful soul in her 70's who brought homemade brownies. We spent the afternoon discussing The Gospel of St.Thomas.

 

[martin]

Richter has for 26.2:

yú tuo fú.
CART CAST SPOKE.

Sounds funny.
The spokes of the wheels break and fly off?!
Suggests a bumpy road and/or a too heavy load. Or too high speed.

Correct or not, I love such word for word translations. They show that the original text was terser and usually more ambiguous than what later translators and commentators made of it.
They often narrowed the meaning down and to me, that's a loss.

 

[Sparhawk]

They show that the original text was terser and usually more ambiguous than what later translators and commentators made of it.
They often narrowed the meaning down and to me, that's a loss.

IMO, the view that the text is "terse" is a Western one. Of course, as with any system used for divination, there must be ambiguity built-in in order to allow for the coverage of "the ten thousand things", but the semantic and contextual meaning of Chinese writing is very different for a Chinese reader than for the rest of us and what we interpret as terse is normal for them. If I remember correctly, Bradford also made a very case for this a little while ago in another thread.


L

 

[martin]

Yes, agree, if you are used to Chinese it must be very different.

It seems that Richter dropped a few characters, btw, if I compare with your 'jiu3 er4 yu2 shuo1 fu4'.
Did he make it even terser than it seems to be to a guy like me?

 

[Sparhawk]

It seems that Richter dropped a few characters, btw, if I compare with your 'jiu3 er4 yu2 shuo1 fu4'.
Did he make it even terser than it seems to be to a guy like me?

No, the actual text for the the line is only three characters, "yu2 shuo1 fu4". The first two characters only mean "9 in the 2nd"...

L

 

[hmesker]

I wonder if one or more of our illustrious translators would be willing to expound on the word(s), which we use for the word "danger"?

Personally I wonder why li 厲 is translated as 'danger' all the time. I mean, there are older meanings, closer to the time when the Yijing is supposed to be written, which are equally valid, or, in my opinion, more valid. One of those meanings is 'to inspire, to excite'. Another is 'arriving at a high place', mainly used for birds. In old texts the phrase 貞厲 could mean something like 'the divination arrives high, is received by the ancestors' (just speculating). 厲 also means 'strict, stern', as in Lunyu VII.38. The general meaning that I sense in this character is that of ability, have the power or strength to achieve something. 貞厲 could therefore mean 'the divination is powerful, has result'.

Just my two cents.

Harmen.

 

[martin]

No, the actual text for the the line is only three characters, "yu2 shuo1 fu4". The first two characters only mean "9 in the 2nd"...

L

Aha! Thank you, learned something.

 

[Trojina]

Personally I wonder why li 厲 is translated as 'danger' all the time. I mean, there are older meanings, closer to the time when the Yijing is supposed to be written, which are equally valid, or, in my opinion, more valid. One of those meanings is 'to inspire, to excite'. Another is 'arriving at a high place', mainly used for birds. In old texts the phrase 貞厲 could mean something like 'the divination arrives high, is received by the ancestors' (just speculating). 厲 also means 'strict, stern', as in Lunyu VII.38. The general meaning that I sense in this character is that of ability, have the power or strength to achieve something. 貞厲 could therefore mean 'the divination is powerful, has result'.

Just my two cents.

Harmen.

I can't see how to apply these other meanings in divination - IOW I don't exactly understand the above post. How could we say "Inspiration is at hand desist" or "arriving at a high place is at hand, desist" These other words seems a long way from the meaning of danger

 

[hmesker]

In the case of 'arriving at a high place is at hand, desist', it isn't very difficult: when you have arrived at your destination, stop. Don't go too high, like the dragon in line 6 of H1.
In the case of 'to inspire, to excite' it could tell you that acting out of excitement could lead to failure: a short-lived spark which ignites the situation, causing it to explode. Or something like that.

These other words seems a long way from the meaning of danger

Yes, but why should that be a problem?

Harmen.

 

[bruce_g]

Thanks, Harmen. Really appreciate it.

 

[bruce_g]

a thought..

What is great can be as simple as a great, energizing idea. If at the beginning of exploring or exercising that idea, you push ahead, that brings danger. The two meanings need not be separate always. What I was trying to say before, that which Dobro confidently shoots down, is that, relaxing your grip or determination keeps that power/energy from getting the upper hand on you, which I believe is what Rosada has pointed out more than once.

 

[Trojina]

Thanks Harmen. I'm not saying its a problem that those words are a long way from danger, just that i thought using them instead of danger radically alters the meaning of the first line in 26 IMO. Danger as far as I'm concerned is something having an actual destructive potential - something to be avoided. If words like excitement/inspiration are substituted here instead of a warning to avoid danger whether internal or external we have a less urgent message of 'cool it' basically.


Does this mean each time the word 'danger' is used in the Yi it can also mean inspiration and excitement - I'm guessing not or 29 would be 'cool it'

 

[Sparhawk]

Does this mean each time the word 'danger' is used in the Yi it can also mean inspiration and excitement - I'm guessing not or 29 would be 'cool it'

Actually, li4 (厲) does not appear on 29 at all...

厲

Li4 also means "whetstone, grind, sharpen, whet." Interesting, if you decompose this character you get 厂, meaning "cliff; slope; factory; yard; depot; workhouse; works" and 萬， meaning "ten thousand; innumerable". Perhaps it can also be seen as the act of grinding, working something into dust or bits and pieces...

L

 

[rosada]

I think the danger refered to in 26.1 is the danger of being in unfamiliar territory. The Innocent of hex 25 has gone as far as he can go on his good looks. What was charming and bringing good fortune in 25.1 brought misfortune is 25.6:

25.1 Innocent behavior brings good fortune.
25.6 Innocent behavior brings misfortune.

So now we're aware we're in totally unfamiliar territory, we don't know what ghosts are lurking or how what we're doing maybe aggrivating the situation. So the advice is you've gone as far as you can go, you've reached the peak of your mountain, used up your personal store of past knowledge, so stop, cool it, get the hell out of Dodge. The key idea is that you don't have any prior experience to help you think your way out of this one. You have to calm down to learn something new. I think of a man overboard who doesn't know how to swim. If he'd calm down his buddies could throw him a life preserver, but he's thrashing around so much he's liable to drown.

Okay, then what happens when the person realizes resistance is futile? 26.2.
The good news is 26.2 is actually a very pleasant place to be. Your stuck, but it's not your fault. The nine in the second place is central, hence able to control itself. So you make the best of things, when in Rome do as the Romans do. Eat their food, listen to their stories, it can be a moment of Grace, a little bit of Heaven. In fact, this moment where one is forced to relax and wait (Remember 5. Waiting: The superior man eats and drinks and is of good cheer?) is I suspect the moment we are on holiday, and completely free to experience our idea of Bliss. Paying attention to what occurs at this time is important because when this brief moment of Grace passes we will be seeking to find it again. If we have noticed what we particularly enjoyed about the moment we'll be able to recognize the potential for recreating it in new circumstances. Thus 26.3 A good horse following others. Our instincts will now have had the experience and will be able to pick up the scent. We'll know what we're looking for when the axle finally gets fixed.

IMHO.

 

[Trojina]

Actually, li4 (厲) does not appear on 29 at all...

厲

Li4 also means "whetstone, grind, sharpen, whet." Interesting, if you decompose this character you get 厂, meaning "cliff; slope; factory; yard; depot; workhouse; works" and 萬， meaning "ten thousand; innumerable". Perhaps it can also be seen as the act of grinding, working something into dust or bits and pieces...

L

Thanks Luis shame I only have small rectangles for what I assume are Chinese characters

 

[Sparhawk]

Thanks Luis shame I only have small rectangles for what I assume are Chinese characters

Well, I was referring to the same weird thingy Harmen was talking about...

L

 

[Sparhawk]

BTW, you can easily see Chinese characters by changing the "Character Encoding" in your browser. If you use Firefox, go to "View" in the menu bar and select "Character Encoding" and change the view for the page to Unicode (UTF-8) or some Asian code. If you use MS IE7, go to Page and then click on Encoding and select the appropriate one.

L

 

[rosada]

I earlier made a comment that I thought 26.2 discribed a situation where one must aquiesce until the axle was "fixed". I have now a translation (Who? Sorry, can't find it again) where the author suggests the subject himself has removed the axle strap.

Karcher on 26.2:
Carting, loosening the axle straps.
Centering without surpassing indeed.

Forward movement stopped, you must cluster round. Draw up the wagons amd make contact. NURTURE THINGS. You need a show of beauty and bravery to release the energy.
-Stephen Karcher

 

[Sparhawk]

Curious how our conversation here as turned to the Chinese characters. Auugh, is IC signaling we really need to know these before we can make any further progress? Last night on t.v. they had an interview with some producer who told how the first 8 months in film directing class were about learning to build the camera. Again auugh. How about if I just take up turtle farming?

Well, we are still discussing in English, no? I believe though that for all the effort we put in discussing the Yijing in Western languages, at some point in your studies, you must dip into Chinese. I also believe the spectrum of meaning really opens up when Chinese is studied, specially the etymology of certain characters. It is one of the reasons I like LiSe's, Brad and Harmen's approach.

Not to mention that I find the whole thing very entertaining and challenging. Some people tackle a 5000 pieces puzzle on a regular basis; I prefer Chinese...

L

 

[Trojina]

Li4 also means "whetstone, grind, sharpen, whet." Interesting, if you decompose this character you get 厂, meaning "cliff; slope; factory; yard; depot; workhouse; works" and 萬， meaning "ten thousand; innumerable". Perhaps it can also be seen as the act of grinding, working something into dust or bits and pieces...

L

So the character taken as danger in 26.1 can also mean inspiration, excitement and to grind or sharpen They sure gave a character alot of work to do these chinese eh ?

BTW thanks for the encoding tip, still can't get it though - before learning Chinese think I need to learn some computing

 

[Sparhawk]

So the character taken as danger in 26.1 can also mean inspiration, excitement and to grind or sharpen They sure gave a character alot of work to do these chinese eh ?

Yup! Yes, they did. That's why there isn't a "perfect" translation... The trick is to find the "lowest common denominator" of meaning in those characters, something that taken in and by themselves can be near impossible and must be contextualized.

L

 

[rosada]

Nine in the third place means:
A good horse that follows others.
Awareness of danger,
With perseverance, furthers.
Practice chariot driving and armed defence daily.
It furthers one to have somewhere to go.

 

[Sparhawk]

So how to you suggest one start the study of Chinese characters?

Ah, for that you are asking the wrong person... I'm very disorganized in my studies...

L

 

[Trojina]

Yup! Yes, they did. That's why there isn't a "perfect" translation... The trick is to find the "lowest common denominator" of meaning in those characters, something that taken in and by themselves can be near impossible and must be contextualized.

L

Yes I was thinking earlier to myself that context must be incredibly important in deciding the meaning of a character. Meanwhile all us non chinese scholars are led wildly astray by the 'helpful' contextualising given to us by the authors of all them Yi books on my shelf. Still I guess as long as we are aware of this we are a bit better off .

 

[heylise]

View attachment 293 The "ten thousand" part in li is a drawing of a scorpion...

LiSe