Memorizing the I Ching 26. Ta Ch'u / The Taming Power of the Great

[getojack]

Six in the fifth

[size=+1]六五 豶豕之牙。吉。[/size]

liu4 wu3 fen2 shi3 zhi1 ya2 ji2

 

[bruce_g]

Quite agree, Charly.

And I need ask no one about LiSe's scorpions - trust me!

 

[charly]

A good dictionary like the Hanyu Da Zidian can help you decide. In the case of gu 牿...
1. 關牛馬的圈欄. A circular fence for enclosing oxes or horses.
2. 從圈欄中放出來的牛馬. Oxes or horses which are released from within the circular fence...

Thanks, Harmen, Brad was right!
Bulls are free inside his wooden circle! May a corral be a protection for bulls, threby the JOY.

I don't get why the joy until I red your post. I don't trust in the hornbinding commentary.

Now, we have
1) the joy of having a burden beast
2) the joy of leting bulls free

Another thing: the fence is a circular one, not square. May be a magical protection?
May be gu means a collar for burden beasts, not only oxen but horses too?
I remember Horace Horsecollar an Clarabelle Cow. Horace seems to enjoy his white horsecollar. Collar become a part of himself.

Yours,


Charly

 

[charly]

So what makes the restaint of the young bull more auspicious than the restraint of the pig? I think it might be that the restraint of the bull allows you to actually *use* the animal's energy for your own useful purposes... A corral doesn't give you that sort of control. A headboard does.
No?

Hi Dobro:

May be the Yi don't speaks only about CONTROL, but also about FREEDOM. That's the reason why I preffer bull (not ox) and wild boar (not pig). I feel that the utilitarian sense is only one side of the coin. A bull in a corral is a fund for farmers, means future. An ox working is also a fund for farmers.

I think that the boar allusion is a talisman, and better than to have a talisman (good as it is) is to build a corral or making friendly / confortable arrays for burden animals, chinese did the second as Needham says.

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

Actually, I vote for "corral"... "Don't worry about everything, put up some boundries."

Cool, Rosada, I thing you get the point.
What about to learn some chinese characters?
Get the Bradford matrix translation, take a look to Harmen and LiSe pages.

Yours,


Charly

 

[dobro p]

May be the Yi don't speaks only about CONTROL, but also about FREEDOM.

What's the likelihood of it meaning 'freedom' in a hexagram which is all about restraint? What's the likelihood of it meaning 'control' in a hexagram which is all about restraint? I'd say there's a greater likelihood of it leaning to the control side of things.

A bull in a corral is a fund for farmers, means future. An ox working is also a fund for farmers.

That's right. I'm as happy with the corral meaning as with the headboard meaning. Right now I'm just weighing up the alternatives to see what I see.

 

[hmesker]

1. Brad is very precise in the translation of Chinese characters, always trying to find the "oldest" meaning of a character.

Hmmmm, I'm not sure if this is one of Brad's criteria. I mean, his translation of zhen 貞 as 'persistence' is an anachronism to me, because this meaning is relatively young, if I believe the Hanyu Da Zidian. The HYDZD and the Wangli Gu Hanyu Zidian do not give sources for this meaning that are earlier than ±300 BC. The meaning of 'to enquire by divination' is much older, and this is the meaning that was used in the era when the Zhouyi is supposed to be written.

Harmen.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hmmmm, I'm not sure if this is one of Brad's criteria. I mean, his translation of zhen ? as 'persistence' is an anachronism to me, because this meaning is relatively young, if I believe the Hanyu Da Zidian.

Man, you are far ahead of me...!! My Chinese, so far, is limited to properly using a dictionary and searching for etymological meanings and cannot go down that deep in the levels of the criteria used by Brad. I am, though, under the impression that Brad has always tried to find the oldest meanings for Chinese characters. For this I mean what was in use in the late Shang and early Zhou Dynasties.

Yo, Brad, where the heck are you???

L

 

[Sparhawk]

Another example: I love LiSe page, but she is far from being a White Angel, she is quite able to throw a Scorpion in your face! If you don't trust me, ask Luis. (it's joke!)

Hey, LiSe is "Da Lady" of Yijing!! Gotta love the woman, scorpions or not.

L

 

[Sparhawk]

Harmen, I'm thinking of buying the Wenlin software. I've communicated with the guys there and asked for a comparison between their product and the Rosetta Stone. They were really nice, of course. I know you use their software so, please, let me know if it is worth the price.

L

 

[martin]

What's the likelihood of it meaning 'freedom' in a hexagram which is all about restraint? What's the likelihood of it meaning 'control' in a hexagram which is all about restraint? I'd say there's a greater likelihood of it leaning to the control side of things.

Well, I think the hexagram is indeed first of all about freedom, but within limitations. Or about space, but within boundaries.
That goes well with the 'corral' interpretation of line 4.

And limitation, restraint, discipline, and so on, does not only diminish freedom or space, it also creates it.

For example, if you study math you have to discipline - tame - your mind and at first it seems that this only limits your freedom. Brrrr.
I guess that's one of the reasons why many people soon give up on math.
But if you continue you will sooner or later discover that your disciplined thinking gives you a new freedom. You can explore 'spaces' that were closed for you before.

It's the same with meditative training. A (monkey ) mind that is disciplined by meditation can explore vast inner spaces that are inaccessable for a mind that is filled with random shatter.

It's like entering a tunnel - or yes, a worm hole! - and it's soo narrow, it's horrible, but then .... WOW! The vastness!


And did you know that horses actually enjoy their taming once they are through the first stages? (of course only if their trainers are friendly and empathic, the horse whisper types)
I have often seen it, they have so much fun. WOW!

 

[bruce_g]

Martin, exactly. The object is to tame, not to imprison.

I see the latter here all the time, and it makes me sad for the animals and angry at the owners. A home owner gets a dog or two, and does nothing with them but feed and pen them. Now they can say "I have a dog." There's no relating with the animal, no training, no working the animal, no rewards for either owner or animal. More like 47 than 26. Such a waste.

 

[dobro p]

Bruce and Martin: exactly what Bruce says. The object is to tame. The object is not to liberate. (That would be Hex 40, probably.) A byproduct of the restraint of 26 might be freedom, but that's not what it's talking about. It talks about accumulation of energy, not freedom.

You can cut the nuts off a male pig, and you can say that frees the pig. I say not.

 

[hmesker]

Harmen, I'm thinking of buying the Wenlin software. I've communicated with the guys there and asked for a comparison between their product and the Rosetta Stone. They were really nice, of course. I know you use their software so, please, let me know if it is worth the price.

It depends on what you want to do, but actually Rosetta Stone and Wenlin are not comparable. RS wants to teach you Chinese, Wenlin is an aid during your study Chinese, it will not teach you the basics of the Chinese language. You can use Wenlin to gain insights in the modern meanings of characters and their components, it contains a flashcard function for memorizing characters (unfortunately not compounds), and it can help you in reading Chinese texts. But I also find it an excellent tool for doing research. Wenlin contains a search function to look for a character in a collection of text files. It helps you to see how a character is used in other Chinese texts. Nowadays there are also websites which do this, and maybe even better (see http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/index.html ), nevertheless it is a most welcome feature. For every character Wenlin tells where you can find it in major dictionaries like Mathews, Hanyu Da Zidian, Wieger and Karlgren's GSR. This saves me a lot of time, as you can understand. But every entry in Wenlin, be it a character or a word (compound), can be edited - you can add your own information to it. I add my own references from other dictionaries, so I don't have to thumb through a dictionary for a second time to find a character. The program has all the characters from the HYDZD (about 55.000) and even more, so you will not often miss a character. Wenlin also contains a very simple text editor, which is very convenient for making notes.

I simply could not do without this program. For those who study Chinese texts it is a very valuable program.

Harmen.

 

[Sparhawk]

Thanks, Harmen. I think I'll eventually get it, indeed.

L

 

[rosada]

When it comes to controling our passions, first we find ourselves desiring something and being willing to do anything to get it, so much so that we have to be restrained:

26.4. An example might be going to a swap meet and knowing one's weakness for impulsive purchases, you decide to leave your wallet at home. After trying this approach a few times you recognize how much fun you had without having to buy anything, and how good you felt having a full wallet when you came home. This experience then boosts you up to the next level:

26.5. Where you now can take your wallet with you, because, like the gelded boar, you no longer have the desire to purchase.

 

[bruce_g]

Bruce and Martin: exactly what Bruce says. The object is to tame. The object is not to liberate. (That would be Hex 40, probably.) A byproduct of the restraint of 26 might be freedom, but that's not what it's talking about. It talks about accumulation of energy, not freedom.

Mmm, well, I do see what you mean. No, not liberate in the sense of 40, but what does "not dining at home" mean? And what does "worthwhile to cross the great stream" mean, if not leaving the pen to accomplish something worthwhile after being tamed? There's a point and purpose behind all this taming.

Also, what's the hoopra all about in line 6? Maybe the beast becomes the food of gods, or serves a higher purpose than its own. Isn't that liberation from lesser things?

 

[dobro p]

but what does "not dining at home" mean?

I talked about this earlier in the thread. I think it means getting input from an external source, which balances the accumulation of energy at the center of things. It's a speculation though, not a conviction lol.

And what does "worthwhile to cross the great stream" mean, if not leaving the pen to accomplish something worthwhile after being tamed? There's a point and purpose behind all this taming.?

Yes, that's my understanding too. The accumulation of energy that the restraint generates supports throwing yourself into significant activity in the world. You're restraining certain forms of energy in the situation, you're not restraining all forms of action. (In just the same way that Hex 5 which is all about waiting talks similarly about 'crossing the great stream' as well.)

Also, what's the hoopra all about in line 6? Maybe the beast becomes the food of gods, or serves a higher purpose than its own. Isn't that liberation from lesser things?

I see it as 'attaining', not as liberation. Attaining which occurs because of the fund of energy accumulated through the restraint of the forces at work here, especially the forces in yourself. So...do you see Hex 46 as being about liberation as well, because it's about rising to a new level?

Look if that 'liberation' idea works for you then go for it; I just don't see that idea as being central to what 26 is talking about. I think that's what we have Hex 40 for - to address 'liberation-type situations'.

 

[bruce_g]

Look if that 'liberation' idea works for you then go for it; I just don't see that idea as being central to what 26 is talking about. I think that's what we have Hex 40 for - to address 'liberation-type situations'.

No, I don't see liberation as the central meaning either, at least not in a stand alone sense. Attainment, yes, I can see 26 as attaining through refining wild instincts or impulses. I say refining, rather than just oppressing, because I'd never want my dog or myself to lose those instincts, only to be able to discern when and when not to employ them.

 

[bruce_g]

Here's a cool example; at least I think it is.

On occasion, during my daily walk, we encounter a neighborhood dog, whose found his way out of his/her pen. Some of these backyard guardians are pretty aggressive. Mojo will instinctively place himself between the stray animal and myself. His entire countenance and posture changes, from "ain't I just a good ole boy" to "watch your step, buster." Guess he learned that from me . Anyway, my point is that those primal instincts become much more effective when they have become refined. Taming and refining can share the same meaning, in this sense. I just hate to see a dog lose his spirit.

 

[Trojina]

Here's a cool example; at least I think it is.

Anyway, my point is that those primal instincts become much more effective when they have become refined. Taming and refining can share the same meaning, in this sense. I just hate to see a dog lose his spirit.

Yes I think thats a good point cos as this threads been going on I've been disliking aspects of the taming of this 'beast' whatever form it takes. Taming can imply breaking the beasts spirit, robbing him of being his true nature . Why should this beast have to quash every instinct just to be useful to us ? But if we see the taming not as robbing the beast, bullying him, forcing submisson, but rather refining and focusing and even enhancing the natural powers of the beast then it makes more sense to me - or rather I like it better I hate to see a dog or any animal lose its spirit too - (yes it was a cool example)

 

[charly]

The object is to tame. The object is not to liberate... It talks about accumulation of energy, not freedom.
You can cut the nuts off a male pig, and you can say that frees the pig. I say not.

The pig also should say not! Cutting off nuts is not the sort of taming from which I Ching speaks. Freedom and taming don't exclude mutually.

The I Ching ever speaks to you and, almost ever, of you. For understand the line, put you in the role and place of each subject of the story.

In this story there are two subjects, by order, the pig or boar and the teeth or tusk. Could this story be fortunate for the boar? I think by no means. Could be fortunate for the tusk? Not ever.

Who is the fortunate guy in this bloody story? You, of course. But you are neither a boar nor a tusk, you could be a hunter, a primitive hunter.

The boar is a sacred animal for you. When you hunt a boar you apologize whit his soul. Then you take his tusk for talisman. This is the reason why you're fortunate. The tusk is the magic emblem of the fierce strenght of the boar, that now is yours.

Not good for the boar, but good for you.

But why the castration? It's no clear. There is some redundance. When something in a folktale makes no sense at all, cann't be a later adding. Later addings ever make sense, generlly a new sense for the story. When something sounds bizarre, generally is a remainder from an earlier forgotten story.

Do you know why primitive hunters cut off nuts not only from animals but also from humans? For eating them! They do this for to increase his strenght by taking the strengh of his respected enemy. This occurs in times with no sildenafil, of course.

Early chinese revered and worshiped the pig. The most ancient chinese dragons were made of jade, and look like «ouroboros», body of snake, head of pig.

I propose:
1) «tusk» = «nuts» by metonimic relation («Metonimy» as one of the tools for figured speech, being the other «Metaphora»)
2) no «castration» at all, no joy of cutting off nuts, but another adjective as «damned» or «respectable».

then:
The tusk of a damned boar. Fortune.
or
The tusk of a respectable boar. Fortune.

Is Rhynoceros horn mere coincidence?

For me is hard to believe that the I Ching could advice to alter the nature of a being, althoug it were a wild boar.

I interpret as:
Getting some additional help. Good.

As you said, Dobro: «It talks about accumulation of energy»

Yours,

Charly

 

[dobro p]

Dude, you're freebasing. Calm yourself.

Do you think 26.5 is about a form of restraint?

Do you think 26.5 is about a form of liberation?

Keep it simple, and you don't have to eat anybody's nuts.

 

[getojack]

The pig also should say not! Cutting off nuts is not the sort of taming from which I Ching speaks. Freedom and taming don't exclude mutually.

The I Ching ever speaks to you and, almost ever, of you. For understand the line, put you in the role and place of each subject of the story.

In this story there are two subjects, by order, the pig or boar and the teeth or tusk. Could this story be fortunate for the boar? I think by no means. Could be fortunate for the tusk? Not ever.

Who is the fortunate guy in this bloody story? You, of course. But you are neither a boar nor a tusk, you could be a hunter, a primitive hunter.

If I'm a primitive hunter, I'm not going to try to tame a wild boar that's charging at me by emasculating it. That doesn't make any sense. It's not a wild untamed boar in this line but a tamed, domesticated pig. In other words, the boar has already been gelded. But the pig knows it was once a boar... he still has the tusks to show him that although he may have lost its nuts, he still has the power to gore anyone should it choose to do so. That is indeed fortunate.

 

[Sparhawk]

But why the castration? It's no clear. There is some redundance. When something in a folktale makes no sense at all, cann't be a later adding. Later addings ever make sense, generlly a new sense for the story. When something sounds bizarre, generally is a remainder from an earlier forgotten story.

There is a very good and practical reason for castration of male livestock, of any kind (Charly, living in Argentina, I'm sure knows this as they produce some of the best beef in the world) By cutting the testosterone producing glands you achieve two goals:

1. you eliminate the aggressiveness and territorial behavior of males, thus allowing for confinement and
2. you are able to fatten them faster (high levels of testosterone inhibits the storing of fat) Some of the best quality meat comes from male livestock that has been castrated, since their meat is marbleized and tender as they achieve an optimal weight while they are very young.​

It is, thus, one more way of taming an animal by drastically changing their nature.

I feel like Jon, Garfield the cat's owner, with his tales from the farm...

Luis

 

[Sparhawk]

BTW, there is a big difference between, say, taming a tiger, which has no practical uses other than entertaining people in a Vegas casino, and raising/taming livestock and other working animals. The latter has several practical purposes, not the least of which is the feeding of those higher up in the food chain (I apologize to the vegetarians...) and the creation of "tools" for agricultural purposes (oxen and horses), for heavy work (elephants, for example), for protection (dogs, for example), for transportation and in many cases for war. And many more practical uses. This involves, confinement, coercion, submission and slaughter.

This morning, I woke up cheerful...

L

 

[Sparhawk]

The tusk of a gelded boar.
Good fortune.

It occurs to me that this is a good example of using something, by the taming party, the tamed one has no use for anymore (i.e. the tusk). The only practical use of a boar/pig's tusk is for fighting, protection and digging for food. Once the boar/pig is tamed (by castration, for example) the animal will be tended and taken care of until he ends up in a wok. The poor thing does not need all the ivory anymore but his owner can certainly use it for a number of purposes, like barter and currency or for ornamental uses.

L

 

[rosada]

I've been over at the trigrams page studying what Hilary has to say. If you haven't been over there it's really worth the click. She has photos of nature illustrating Lake, Heaven etc. Anyway, when you consider just the trigram meanings there's insight added to the lines. For example, the bottom trigram of 26 is Heaven, the unstoppable creative force. The upper trigram is Mountain, the immovable object. So what happens when an Unstoppable Force meets an Unmovable Object? What changes take place?

Line one:
The trigram for Heaven changes to the trigram for Wind. The nature of Wind is that it can slip through anything. This suggests to me that even an Immovable object cannot stop The Creative, because The Creative is what created the immovable object to begin with {please don't get side tracked debating this. I'm just posting musings here, and if you don't agree that is totally fine!} So at this first line we have the awareness that one could slip past any boundries, limits, rules, if one cared to, but that would spoil the game. So at the beginning of Taming or Great Restraint, is the awareness that all limits are self imposed.
To learn anything, the student voluntarily submits.

LIne two:
Here the trigram for Heaven becomes the trigram for Fire and combined with the upper trigram for Mountain we have the hexagram Grace. So with the understanding from line one that we must freely accept the limits of the game ourselves, we have the image of one removing the axlestraps themselves, and the creation of this lovely moment of Grace.

Line three:
Here the trigram Heaven morfs into Lake, the symbol for Joy and Acquiesence. Thus the idea of now joyfully following the restraints and wisdom of the upper trigram, Mountain.

Line four:
The base line of the upper trigram Mountain becomes yang and the trigram becomes Fire. So we have Creative/Fire - Hex.14. The Image for hex 14 reads, "The superior man curbs evil and furthers good, and thereby obeys the benevolent will of heaven." The fan yao (right term?) 14.4 says, "He makes a differance between himself and his neighbor. No blame." Like, "Good fenses make good neighbors." That sounds to me like the corral image, the idea of limiting and thus making more useful, valuable. Interesting, this is not the ruling line of the hexagram, and yet it seems to express the key message of the hexagram, that is, by self imposed limits one amasses possessions in great measure. This leads me to conclude that it is not just possessions that are important, but rather the self discipline that is acquired, as shown in line five.

Line five:
Trigram Mountain becomes trigram Wind. Here again we have that scary trigram that can slip through anything, only now because one has learned to follow rules and become self disciplined Wind no longer contains the threat that we might be blown away and lose track of everything we're trying to do. Instead Wind here indicates we we have learned how to restrain the unbounded desires of The Creative. Note what Wilhelm says of 9.5,

If you are sincere and loyally attached,
You are rich in your neighbor.
Loyalty leads to firm ties because it means that each partner complements the other. In the weaker person loyalty consists in devotion, in the stronger it consists in trustworthiness. This relation of mutual reinforcement leads to a TRUE WEALTH that is all the more apparent because it is NOT SELFISHLY HOARDED but is shared with friends. Pleasure shared is pleasure doubled.

I made a point of emphasizing NOT HOARDED because the whole theme of 26 has been about storing things up, not scattering, yet here at the ruling line we see that the idea is not just to hoard something, but rather, to create something useful that can THEN BE SHARED. Perhaps this is what the "not eating at home" and "It furthers one to cross the great water" lines are all about.

Line six:
Well, we haven't gotten to line six yet in our study here, but I'm thinking it has to do with being released from the Major Restraint, schools out, graduation. The restraining Mountain becomes the receptive Earth.

Note 11.6:
"Heaven and earth unite:
the image of peace.
Thus the ruler
DIVIDES AND COMPLETES THE COURSE OF HEAVEN AND EARTH;
HE FURTHERS AND REGULATES THE GIFTS OF HEAVEN AND EARTH,
AND SO AIDS THE PEOPLE."

Having internalized The Rules, the way of Heaven, one can now go out into the wide world and rather than be changed by the influences, the superior man can now influence the changes.

Thus the Unstoppable Force becomes the Immovable Object - and takes it with him!

 

[Trojina]

BTW, there is a big difference between, say, taming a tiger, which has no practical uses other than entertaining people in a Vegas casino, and raising/taming livestock and other working animals. The latter has several practical purposes, not the least of which is the feeding of those higher up in the food chain (I apologize to the vegetarians...) and the creation of "tools" for agricultural purposes (oxen and horses), for heavy work (elephants, for example), for protection (dogs, for example), for transportation and in many cases for war. And many more practical uses. This involves, confinement, coercion, submission and slaughter.

This morning, I woke up cheerful...

L

Yes but we aren't talking about actual animals but our metaphorical inner beasts so to speak - so I'm not sure what you were getting at in this post ? If I ask about my wayward spending habits and get 26,4 I restrain myself but that does not mean forcing myself into slaughter and submission( metaphorically speaking ) One can do things that way but it leads to a backlash, isn't really useful in the long run

Just wondering why you make this statement about the use of animals at the end of your post ? Are you suggesting this is how we handle our inner beasts ?

(Should we have a contest on most inventive reason for editing. I see you put 'because its my post annd I can lol)

 

[rosada]

0 Nine at the top means:
One attains the way of heaven. Success.

The time of obstruction is past. The energy long dammed up by inhibition forces it's way out and achieves success. This refers to a man who is honored by the ruler and whose principles now prevail and shape the world.

"One attains the way of heaven." Truth works in the great.

The top line is honored as a sage by the six in the fifth place. It stands in the relationship of congruity to the nine in the third place, which is however, the top line of the trigram Ch'ien, heaven. The upper trigram Ken means a way.