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39. Chien / Obstruction

fkegan

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Hex 39 in image and sequence...

We are using different images and meanings to the sequence. The first question is how much water is on top of the mountain and how big is the obstruction. Truly tall mountains have snow caps, that is a major investment of water that is stored on top of the mountain. And snow capped mountains are associated with major obstructions, like passes in major mountain ranges that close with snow in the winter.

Hex 4 is the artesian spring that bubbles up at the base of a mountain from the energy of the rain water absorbed by the mountain which is now expressing that elevation potential in a fountain. Hex 48 is the 8th of its set, or the active dyad or opposite to the structural relationship of hex 47 where there is a lake and water, but they go their separate ways leaving an empty lake bed. Thus hex 48 is where the water is structured into a well which is always full of water for village use and its lines represent the issue of stages of the well on their way to bringing up water and delivering it to people.

The general sense is that this hex. 39 refers to snowy mountain tops which are major obstructions that can close major roads through the passes in winter but will clear and open in the spring. The notion of the ultimate goal is in line with the massive scale of this image of snow capped Himalayas. Gia-Fu Feng translated this hexagram as referring to Mao's Long March, or an expedition to climb the Himlayas. As we worked on the Taoist translation of the I Ching in the summer of '74, watching the Watergate hearings, he chose the Nixonian term of art--Stone Wall as his name for hex 39. I used Valley Forge in my Flux Tome names since that work was later and Stonewalling was too topical a reference.

The Wilhelm also speaks of this being a "...hexagram of Obstructions that appear in the course of time but can and should be overcome." What is the point of overcoming obstructions but to achieve major goals worth the effort?

The notion of goals arises from what it is that would motivate one to face an ice closed mountain pass, accept that you must stop now, but also insist that you simply reorganize and plan to move forward by another route or another time.

In terms of the sequence, I use the decads or sets of 10. Hex 39 is part of the set beginning with hex. 31 and ending in hex. 40 which describes the human relationships that establish the family as the basic unit of Chinese society. Specifically, hex 31 is the sexual attraction between male and female which forms the family in hex 37 as the structure to channel that attraction. Hex 38 is the active bickering of the middle and younger sister stuck in the house because it is raining and getting into a row as the rest of the family is otherwise engaged. In detail, the younger sister is trying to follow upon the older; while the older, being just the middle daughter is trying to get away to play alone that for once she is the biggest daughter in the house. That is sibling rivalry and family dynamics as an active tumult.

Hexagram 39 is the accumulation and intensification of sexual energy and desire which is NOT now being released. The active energy that will motivate the interactions and continued family obligations of the marriage partners despite the hassles of the kids which is kept in perspective by their sexual desire for each other. Hex 40 is the regular sexual relations which is the final quiescence of that potential released, that also re-leases or recommits the marriage partners to each other and to their children as family and the offspring of their continuing relations.

The notion of goals in general is what this hexagram and the whole decad from 31-40 is all about. How is individual sexual desire between male and female harnessed to the goal of creating stable and dynamic families who raise children to be good citizens and maintain the nation. Achievement of ultimate and massive goals is built into each of these 10 hexagrams. For hex 39, it is important that there are ultimate goals that will motivate individuals to deal with and transcend whatever obstructions might occur to make sure the whole process is completed and maintained.

Frank
 

frank_r

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From 37 till the end of 40 we have to do with becoming of something. It is an open road. We are heading to somewhere. And this somewhere is not fixed. The nucleur trigrams in all this hexagrams are water and fire. The basis axis in both of the sequences.

Here in 39 the nucleur trigrams are water on the bottum and fire on top. So the movement is one of separation.
The first and last line are yin, so in that way not active and of no real help. The only line from this two that gets some help is the last line. This one gets help from the third line and the fifth who is also a ruler of the hexagram.So only in the end there will be a feeling of hope that there will be a solution.And then we come to 40.
In the King wen and the Fu Shi sequence of the trigrams water is followed by mountain. So the outside is a step back compared with the inside.
In the Lo Shu it starts with water and it is almost ending(step number 8) with mountain. But the Lo Shu is like paterns that worked in the past. So by looking to obstructions in the past it is possible to recognise what you can do different for an other outcome in the future.


Nigel Richmond writes here: "Emerging life force remains still(mountain) in the face of warring opposites (Water, fire, water)
 
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hilary

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Another thing that happens to water at the top of mountains: it changes state. Snow becomes streams; what rose as clouds falls as rain.
 
M

maremaria

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…. The mist and cloud will turn to rain, The rain to mist and cloud again, ….
— Henry Wadsworth Longfellow,
 

rosada

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I find this message board form of communication so frustrating! Is this a manifestation of Obstacles? Particularly it seems to me that we all have different perspectives and by sharing our perspectives we add to each others' understanding and also improve our own through the exercise of putting our vision into words. But we get all tangled up when our story lines overlap and make one person's interpretation/perspective appear to be "wrong" if it's radically different from another's - thus making advancement impossible!

For example, I see 39 from the perspective of the bottom up, being at the base of the mountain and being unable to get to the river because of being blocked by the mountain, thus a feeling of being held back until some danger passes. Others see it from the middle perspective, being between the river and the mountain, and thus a feeling of being hemmed in by danger on all sides. Wilhelm interprets the hexagrams from the perspective of the top down, the river is being blocked by the mountain, not being able to flow on until the waters have accumulated to the point of overflowing the obstacle, and thus the danger is overcome when one has become so strong it is no longer a danger. And then we have other interpretations such as the suggestions of the water being snow on top of the mountain which will evaporate and become rain and so forth. Anyway, 39. seems to describe a point where further progress is blocked until we are able to hear and sort out seemingly opposing points of view, and not need others to be wrong for our point of view to be valid. Perhaps THE IMAGE explains how this is to be done...
 
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rosada

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THE IMAGE
Water on the mountain:
The image of OBSTRUCTION.
Thus the superior man turns his attention to himself and molds his character.
——-
May 18, 2021, as I read about how Obstruction offers a time to reflect on one’s character I heard the lyric “When you are stuck between the moon and New York City the best that you can do is fall in love.”
 
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fkegan

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Rosada,

Seeing what feels frustrating in external activities as an opportunity for inner growth and realization is very much part of this hexagram. The line structure has yin lines in the environment line pair, lines 1 and 6, so everything outside of Self and inner process is Open and the nuclear hex 64 (being on a goal quest to start something new) is being channeled and isolated by the situation.

Frank
 

getojack

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Jiăn
jian3.gif


CCDICT definitions: [1] slow [2] lame; crippled [3] difficult; hard [4] haughty

h39.gif


Dà Xiàng:
象曰‧山上有水‧蹇‧君子以反身修德‧
xiàng yūe: shān shàng yōu shuī. jiăn. jūnzi yī fān shēn xiū dé.

xiang4: The image
yue1: says,
shan1: A mountain...
shang4: above it,
you1: there is
shui1: water...

Jiǎn.

jun1 zi: The nobleman,
yi1: accordingly,
fan1: turns around
shen1: (his) life,
xiu1: cultivating
de2: virtue.
 
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fkegan

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Or in the Taoist translation...

Gia-Fu Feng translated the image for hex 39 (Stonewall): Water above mountain. Stonewall. The master turns inward and cultivates virtue.

Frank
 

charly

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Jiăn
jian3.gif

...
Getojack:

As LiSe says, there is another related character meaning «cold», «wintry» with a MAN component instead of a FOOT.

This character has a foot, and a roof or a cover filled with straw.

Yours,

Charly
 

bradford

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Another image of obstruction that works with the trigrams,
and one especially important to sailors and river boatmen,
is a mountain under the water - a reef You're just not going
that way, period.
 
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maremaria

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Another image of obstruction that works with the trigrams,
and one especially important to sailors and river boatmen,
is a mountain under the water - a reef You're just not going
that way, period.

Interesting image.
 

fkegan

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Is the timing of hex 39 temporary or final?

Another image of obstruction that works with the trigrams,
and one especially important to sailors and river boatmen,
is a mountain under the water - a reef You're just not going
that way, period.

That still leaves open the question of whether it is essential to hex 39 that you figure out how to still continue--portage perhaps, or if you can just give up that original goal and find another something to do that is safer.

Frank
 

bradford

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That still leaves open the question of whether it is essential to hex 39 that you figure out how to still continue--portage perhaps, or if you can just give up that original goal and find another something to do that is safer. Frank

I think it's a time for a complete reassessment of goals and priorities, not for finding
another way around. Time to raise a glass with the sage in a nearby tavern, at least
until the storms pass and the pass clears. Except in line 2, unless he wants to reassess
being in the king's service. That's the line of the snowplow driver.
 

rosada

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Six at the beginning means:
Going meets with obstructions,
Coming meets with praise.
 

fkegan

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I think it's a time for a complete reassessment of goals and priorities, not for finding
another way around. Time to raise a glass with the sage in a nearby tavern, at least
until the storms pass and the pass clears. Except in line 2, unless he wants to reassess
being in the king's service. That's the line of the snowplow driver.

Why? Do snow plow drivers give up on their government service?
When Wilhelm speaks of "...obstructions that appear in the course of time but that can and should be overcome." is he excessively wild and optimistic of the possibilities of this oracle timing?

What do you lose when you take hex 39 to mean a complete reassessment of goals? How does a high mountain pass clear after one snowy storm?

Frank
 
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maremaria

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Hi Frank,
If I’m not wrong the title “ Psy.D.” in your signature means Doctor of Psychology. I guess that you may have met people that the have come across a big obstacle an dead-end. In such cases what a psychologist would recommend. Keep going, set new goals or stay a little bit there, listen, feel, see, understand were you stand, how you came there and after that make any necessary corrections?
I’m not saying that 39 is just this , but is a situation that fits to 39, imo.

You asked “What do you lose when you take hex 39 to mean a complete reassessment of goals?”
Which is your answer? And what to do gain if you assumed that 39 is not about reassessment?

Snow has a potential to be water and flow. But this can happened only when the sun comes out and melt it. Unless there is something else I haven't figure out yet.
 

rosada

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Realizing I didn't post Wilhelm's comment on line one..
Perhaps it sheds some light on what hex. 39 advises on how to respond when first encountering an obstruction...

Six at the beginning means:
Going leads to obstruction,
Coming meets with praise.

When one encounters an obstruction, the important thing is to reflect on how best to deal with it. When threatened with danger, one should not strive blindly to go ahead, for this only leads to complications. The correct thing is, on the contrary, to retreat for the time being, not in order to give up the struggle but to await the right moment for action.

IT IS RIGHT TO WAIT.

Going, as this strong line at the beginning would be inclined to do, would lead into danger. Coming back is in accord with the trigram Ken, Keeping still.
-Wilhelm
 

fkegan

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Hex 39 and moving lines...in essence..

Hi Maria,
I'm not quite sure what you are referring to either in your notion of a psychologist or hex 39. An obstruction or CHALLENGE is totally different from a DEAD END, so your using them together is a problem for me.

If you give up your quest goal because of just a challenge, you have lost your essence for nothing. What do you gain by meeting the challenge by adjusting to temporary obstacles by learning to achieve your goals within the context of actual situations? Growth, wisdom and eventual success in your own essential terms.

Snow has a potential to be water and flow. But this can happen only when the sun comes out and melt it. Unless there is something else I haven't figure out yet."
Snow on high mountains generally melts, to the extent it ever melts, not by the re-appearance of the sun after a storm, but the change of seasons. Someone facing a high mountain pass closed by winter ice needs to look on the map for another route to the goal or gather a major expedition to conquer the ice field or wait for spring thaw planning the quest beyond the pass.

Rosada,
Perhaps it sheds some light on what hex. 39 advises on how to respond when first encountering an obstruction...

There are a range of ways to work with moving lines or with the lines of the hexagram as a guide to the various aspects it. If it is a moving line, then the Oracle refers to the hexagram being changed by the focus on that line stage toward a different hexagram timing.

The focus developing upon the first line, the transition from prior conditions tending to change hex 39 (Valley Forge) into hex 63 Completion (Morning After) suggests that the situation indicates the Challenge is no longer in getting to your lofty goals but dealing with what you feel is already completed which is now at a high point and will come unraveled if left on its own at this point.

Not exactly, it is right to wait. Rather your drive to the ultimate goal is not at this moment as important as dealing with prior stuff which isn't really over for you yet.

Frank
 

rosada

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Frank,
Thank you for your ideas here, particularly on why one should wait at 39.1. I get that what you are saying is that while 39.1's advice is "It is right to wait," (Wilhelm's words, not mine, btw) this does not mean sit and do nothing but rather because 39.1 changes to 63, the message is "hold off moving forward and meanwhile complete, stabilize, clarify where you are now."

Astrologically I see us having a period of Obstruction until May 3rd. Saturn (responsability and debt, the planet of physical reality) in the sky is retrograde until then, at the first degrees of the new sign it has recently entered, thus suggesting a feeling of backing up from making new commitments, energies being stalled just at the start of new projects. I see this manifesting in things like people holding back from investing money in new homes until there is clearer sense of the home values stabilizing.
So now I see 39.1 as meaning, "Step back, stabilize before moving forward."
--

Does anyone have thoughts on how in general, when obstructions appear, can we know when the obstacles are just a speed bump and when they should be recognized as brick walls?
 
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Trojina

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--

Does anyone have thoughts on how in general, when obstructions appear, can we know when the obstacles are just a speed bump and when they should be recognized as brick walls?

Funny I can't think of one time I've received 39 where theres been any tangible obstruction - its usually a time i can't make headway but i never perceive this to be due to something blocking, something in the way - more like just being lost in the blizzard. Or like being lost in fog - which is an obstruction in its own right of course, but all this time I haven't really seen that till now. I'd always thought of 39 as a hard block/obstruction/problem, brick wall kind of thing - and yet it didn't tally with my experience of being lost in blizzard/fog - no particular goal but it would be nice to move at all - anywhere. I suppose one has to wait till the weather clears.
 

fkegan

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Hex 39 and current astrological transits...

Frank,
Thank you for your ideas here, particularly on why one should wait at 39.1. I get that what you are saying is that while 39.1's advice is "It is right to wait," (Wilhelm's words, not mine, btw) this does not mean sit and do nothing but rather because 39.1 changes to 63, the message is "hold off moving forward and meanwhile complete, stabilize, clarify where you are now."

Astrologically I see us having a period of Obstruction until May 3rd. Saturn (responsability and debt, the planet of physical reality) in the sky is retrograde until then, at the first degrees of the new sign it has recently entered, thus suggesting a feeling of backing up from making new commitments, energies being stalled just at the start of new projects. I see this manifesting in things like people holding back from investing money in new homes until there is clearer sense of the home values stabilizing.
So now I see 39.1 as meaning, "Step back, stabilize before moving forward."
--

Does anyone have thoughts on how in general, when obstructions appear, can we know when the obstacles are just a speed bump and when they should be recognized as brick walls?

Hi Rosada,

You're welcome for my ideas.:bows:

Gia-Fu Feng translates hex 39.1 as "GO FORWARD, STONEWALL. COME BACK, FAME. Turn inward and wait." which seems sufficient here especially as you raise the question of current astrological transits...

Personally, I have been looking more at Pluto position, being past 1 Cap01 and just stationed Rx giving us a taste of what to expect when Pluto enters Cap for good around Christmas.
Home prices aren't likely to stabilize in May, though there is a lovely double Grand Trine with T-Square on or about the next full moon 20 April.

But Saturn Rx would be a hex 39 situation and if one were looking to make the leap into a house purchase right about now, hex 39.1 would be an appropriate oracle. :)

BTW, In May when Saturn is direct, Mercury, Jupiter and Neptune join Pluto Rx. I hadn't looked that far into the distant future yet, Thank you for the reminder.

Trojan,
You express your personal experience with hex 39 well. Although the text speaks of mountains the position of the hex.-- 9th in decad starting with hex 31--speaks about more personal stuff (maximizing sexual energy through deferred gratification-- apparently major birth control in traditional China).

I would not see hex 39 advising you just wait for your personal blizzard to clear. It is a time to turn inward and not only settle the snow-globe blizzard but maybe find that major goal worth your deferred gratification with the current challenge.

Frank
 

Sparhawk

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初六 往蹇來譽。
chu1 liu4 wang3 jian3 lai2 yu4
 

rosada

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Ah! Thank you Trojan for another interpretation of Water over Mountain: Waiting for the fog to lift. That fits in with the idea of 37.Family leading to 38. Opposition with the sisters having opposing points of view within the family creating 39. Obstructions that are not brick wall obstructions but obstructions caused by misunderstandings and until the mist lifts we can't find the understanding.
 
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maremaria

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Frank ,
A cat eat the “or” word It should be ” a big obstacle (OR) an dead-end, although there might be times that it could be just an dead-end.

About the snow /sun example don’t take it too literally. What I was saying (between the lines) was that ,imo, Yi says that is a potential to overcome that obstacle (snow, fog, mist, reef, speed bump , brick wall, rocks, whatever ) but somehow we should utilize it. Having a potential doesn’t always means success. It depends how we use it.
As for the rest of your post, you confused me. I really don’t know if we agree or disagree that waiting and pause for a while any action (without that meaning give up any effort). So I have no an answer.
For a long time I had the conviction that only by demonstrating results it’s an evidence that we make efforts. Till -under some circumstances- I realized that this in not always right.
Bradford said in a previous post “Time to raise a glass with the sage in a nearby tavern, at least until the storms pass and the pass clears.” To me , instead of keep walking( just for the shake of walking) is much better to go to the tavern drink and talk with the sage. Who knows, maybe it has something helpful to say to us.


Does anyone have thoughts on how in general, when obstructions appear, can we know when the obstacles are just a speed bump and when they should be recognized as brick walls?

Sometimes the obstacle seems like a speed bump but it turned to be a brick wall, and vise versa. The degree of resistance we feel in our effort to overcome it seems the only way to name it as the one or the other.

About 39.1 to 63
This lines seems also like while we are walking, unsuspected that we maybe follow a not quite correct path, we hit on a wall where a message is written “Huston we have a problem”. or kind of “you are already here” and/or “this is how things are now” :brickwall:

Someone in a previous thread, martin if I’m not mistaken, said an aspect of 63 is ghosts “Ghosts from the past”. Reassessing goals, priorities, destinations sometimes requires that backwards movement.
 
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rosada

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39.2
Six in the second place means:
The king's servant is beset by obstruction upon obstruction,
But it is not his own fault.
 

Sparhawk

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六二 王臣蹇蹇。匪躬之故。
liu4 er4 wang2 chen2 jian3 jian3 fei3 gong1 zhi1 gu4
 

fkegan

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Hex 39 is all within our heads... outside is just common reality

Frank ,


As for the rest of your post, you confused me. I really don’t know if we agree or disagree that waiting and pause for a while any action (without that meaning give up any effort). So I have no an answer.

Hi Maria,
I don't think we agree much. My sense of hex 39 is that it is all about what is going on within one's own mind. One has an intent to achieve some goal. While being focused intently upon that goal, it seems that you have come to a major impasse. This is the hexagram of figuring out how to reconsider what you are doing so you can continue to your goal.

My image for it would be thinking about getting to market and then finding yourself almost hit by a car. You stop, look around and realize you are on the sidewalk, came to an intersection and so intent upon your internal musings that you did not notice the traffic light or the busy cross traffic. Yes, you MUST stop and wait for the light to change to cross the street safely....But, the point of the hexagram is to "turn inward and cultivate virtue" or 'turn your attention to yourself and mold your character.'

That is, figure out the difference between your goals eventually, and how you need to proceed along your way to get anywhere. You aren't in an objectively desperate situation. Even the snowed in roads through the passes in the Himalayas have a simple natural cycle of being accessible in summer. Trying to go through them in the dead of winter after major storms have closed all access, isn't the big deal.

The major thing is to figure out a reasonable path in light of the conditions and the timing, rather than just jumping from first thinking you really want to get there quick even though its February, and the high pass is the shortest route (in summer) though closed with ice from December to May.

Frank
 

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39.2
Six in the second place means:
The king's servant is beset by obstruction upon obstruction,
But it is not his own fault.

The second line has a relation with the yang ruler on the fifth place, The line is a central line in trigram mountain and is the first line in the nucleur trigram water. So it is the beginning of a personal fear deep inside. But because there is also help from the world outside, the feeling of obstruction is more a reaction to conditions than to a real impossible obstruction that is a fixed border.
 

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