39. Chien / Obstruction

[fkegan]

Hex 39.6 >>Hex. 53 from the changing line perspective

Hi Rosada,

Interesting metaphor for maximizing intensity of sexual energy as polar opposite to hexagram 40.

In more general symbolism, the top line in hex 39 is an open Yin place where the transition to subsequent conditions is submerged into the gua background. When it becomes a moving line, there is a focus developing upon this transition to what comes next which tends to change the overall timing from this confrontation with current massive obstacles to the overall goal or development plan.

Once the focus develops on this next development, the actual process of making that long range goal into reality has begun and the hexagram 39 is changed into hexagram 53.

Frank

 

[rosada]

Realizing i didn't complete all of what Wilhelm has to say about this line...

Going leads to obstructions,
Coming leads to great good fortune.
It furthers one to see the great man.

If the weak line at the top should try to go forth and overcome obstacles alone, it would meet with failure. Its nature, its will is directed toward the great, i.e., strong line in the third place, which has a relationship of correspondence with it. It furthers one to see the great man because the nine in the fifth place, the great man of the hexagram, stands at the top of the nuclear trigram Li, eye, light. He is seen in the sense that the present line, together with the nine in the third place, follows him as the man of rank under whose leadership the obstructions are overcome.
-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

Hi Frank,
I like how you put it that 39.6 > 53 can indicate a time to begin putting long range goals into reality. Certainly often the best way to get past obstacles is to have powerful goal that is so compelling that what once seemed to be big obstacles no longer deter you. Like in a family if you are not speaking to your sister because she borrowed your sweater without asking and then Mother calls out, "Daddy's home!" suddenly you want to forgive all the past misdeeds so you can get on with the fun of being family.

 

[fkegan]

Hi Frank,
I like how you put it that 39.6 > 53 can indicate a time to begin putting long range goals into reality. Certainly often the best way to get past obstacles is to have powerful goal that is so compelling that what once seemed to be big obstacles no longer deter you. Like in a family if you are not speaking to your sister because she borrowed your sweater without asking and then Mother calls out, "Daddy's home!" suddenly you want to forgive all the past misdeeds so you can get on with the fun of being family.

Hi Rosada,
We continue to have an ongoing difference of perspective. You see this hexagram referring to something that obstructs one now; while I see it as the description of a long term goal which is currently being thwarted from simple achievement. Your focus is upon not being able to do what one wishes, mine is on the character building potential of major difficulties in achieving an already well-established long term and massive goal.

I remember Gia-Fu speaking of the Chinese name of this hexagram in terms of Mao's Long March. He chose the term Stone Wall from the Nixon Watergate Hearings that summer. I took the term Valley Forge for my Flux Tome name.

I recently picked up Harrison Salisbury's book on the subject: "Each revolution is carried out under its own legend. The American was fought with Valley Forge engraved in the hearts of the patriots..."

The Long March was a desperate set of retreats into the inaccessible regions of high mountains to avoid total destruction (less than 5,000 of the original 86,000 survived). between Oct 16, 1934 and either sometime in 1935 or 1949 when Mao announced his new government in Tiananmen Sq.

These are big problems standing in the way of major achievement goals...

Frank

 

[rosada]

Oh. Hmm. Well, I hope that's not a problem

Certainly this hexagram can be considered from many different perspectives. I think what I zero in on is what one might learn from 39 if it came up as response to an immediate question. I take it you are saying you like to consider what 39 means in the over all context of 64 hexagrams? Hmm..still not sure I understand the point you are making. Maybe it would be useful if I wrote out briefly what I see 39 as saying and then if you feel to you could post your ideas.

First, I see the I Ching as describing the path of individual consciousness as it evolves to connect with / create group consciousness. In the earlier hexagrams I see a story of a single consciousness at first experiencing success in creating a world of group interaction, culminating in the glorious celebration of hexagram 16. Then the challenge becomes greater as one feels called to teach others to duplicate the original success. Attempting to teach/impose one's own vision to others is fruitless and ends with the awareness we really don't know anything anyway - hexagram 25. At this stage we are finally willing to learn and then having studied and taken in all we can we feel ready to hit the road again - hex. 29. Only this time we now see others not as beginners whom we must guide, but as equals we must align with - hex. 30. This leads to the forming of partnerships, families and the realization that to bring our vision into the world we can not impose it from without but must become one with the world, be born again as a child of this world and know that consciousness can not be raised from without but is raised by being one with all that is and all raise together. At first opposing points of view surface and we may feel stuck - 39 - but like Alexander cutting the Gordian Knot we recognize the potential in unity is so much more compelling than ego gratification, that we slice through all individual ego claims - forgive the past - and experience the break through now made possible. Now we begin really learning sharing and ultimately working together thus creating/manifesting something together that none could have created alone: The Community Well. 48. Finally one's dream has been actualized, 49, and we have a glimpse of what the future might hold, 50. This vision of what we are really capable of doing causes shock 51, and the desire to settle down, focus and get to work. Now it's a matter of resisting getting sucked back into ego games and going forward, doing unto others as one would be done by. That takes me up to 58. Can't remember at the moment how I had fit the last 6 pieces into the puzzle...

Anyway, that's a glimpse into my perspective. Ideally I think everyone should come up with their own.

I haven't read all of your thoughts on the hexagrams and how you have seen a pattern in each group of ten, but I find what I have read so far very compelling and better yet, I find they help me in remembering the meanings.:bows:

 

[fkegan]

personal meaning and philosophical analysis

I haven't read all of your thoughts on the hexagrams and how you have seen a pattern in each group of ten, but I find what I have read so far very compelling and better yet, I find they help me in remembering the meanings.

Hi Rosada,
Glad you find the sets of 10 meaningful. They fit into the Chinese number system and also give a meaning to each hexagram by its number. The first number is the set of 10 described by the hexagram number x1, the second number describes its place amongst the Monad, Dyad, Triad, or Tetrad groupings.

Looking for your own narrative of what the hexagrams are each about is always a good way to describe your own perspective on things. The overall sets have some remarkably powerful and sophisticated things to say about the details and meaning of the hexagrams and of the natural and cultural entities they describe.

Frank

 

[rosada]

40. Hsieh / Deliverance

40. Hsieh / Deliverance

40.1 Without blame
40.2 New ways get results.

Before we go further into 40. Hsieh I would like to pause for a moment and discuss with the current readers if we are satisfied with our study so far.

 

[Sparhawk]

Fine with me...

 

[rosada]

Great! I just wanted to formally pause for a moment at 39.6 to be sure we didn't have any Obstructions.
This thread was originally created with the intention of facilitating memorizing the hexagrams. I think it is doing this to a degree, but not to the extent I originally had in mind. I frequently find myself feeling guilty for not being able to memorize past
"2.6 Dragons fight in the meadow. Their blood is yellow and black." Like my unconscious is saying "We don't want to go any further with just memorization. We can't take in any more information we don't understand. We don't know how to file it."
So I want to formally withdraw the Memorization imperative, even though it remains in the title.

(Dobro, I think you warned me this would happen!)

 

[hilary]

What a perfect moment in the sequence to 'withdraw an imperative'!

 

[Trojina]

First, I see the I Ching as describing the path of individual consciousness as it evolves to connect with / create group consciousness. :

Do you see it like that because you think thats how it is or do you see it like that for a memory aid ?

 

[ulkem]

Dear Frank,

Your comments on this hexagram has helped me a lot. The comment which was called "a lot of 'is nots' "by Meng was a perfect fit for my situation and i relate hundred percent with what you say.

I have been looking for something to adopt as a way of helping people-but also to help myself first-and i met Transformational Breath. That was the only method i felt so close and i thought "hmm, i think this might be it." I took several sessions but i have a long way to go and the most importantly there is a seminar coming up, at the end of June. And if i want to be a Breath Coach, i have to join this seminar, it's a step you have to take before having the education. And i know i need to do this somehow but it just doesn't seem any possible right now because it's too expensive for me, i'm unemployed right now so i have to ask money from my parents and this is something i really cannot do, i cannot ask that amount of money from them. It's "the rock in my sandals" and my scruples. I definitely trust i-ching with all my heart and wiling to take its advice, i'm just too anxious about if i wait and do nothing i would miss the opportunity of my life, on the other hand it's obvious that i can't move anywhere right at this point.

And i struggle about one thing in this "ultimate goal" of mine is it possible that the i-ching is implying that i should think about a plan B instead of doing nothing about it. What i'm saying is, i found another Transformational Breath Coach and she's also very good in it besides it's cheaper than the other one but it will still force our economy. So what do you think about my situation, should i just wait and do nothing until the snow melts away or should i look for other alternatives instead? I would love to hear you opinion on that.

Thank you for sharing your wisdom so openly and clearly.

ulkem.

 

[pocossin]

Dear Frank,

Your comments on this hexagram has helped me a lot. The comment which was called "a lot of 'is nots' "by Meng was a perfect fit for my situation and i relate hundred percent with what you say.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=12073
Frank Kegan obituary

 

[anemos]

39.3
Nine in the third place means:
Going leads to obstruction;
Hence he comes back.

-- --
-----
-- --
--x--
-- --
-- --

When the preceding line shows the official compelled by duty to follow the way of danger, this line shows the man who must act as father of a family or as head of his kin. If he were to plunge recklessly into danger, it would be a useless act, because those entrusted to his care cannot get along by themselves. But if he withdraws and turns back to his own, they welcome him with joy.

"Going leads to Obstructions; hence he comes back."
Those within rejoice over it.

This strong line is the ruler of the trigram Ken and has two weak lines depending on it. Its strength might induce it to move outward, but there it encounters the trigram of danger (K'an). Hence it turns back, and the six in the second place, which has a relationship of holding together with it, rejoices.

-Wilhelm

39 is changing in 8. So there is a possibility to find people who are thinking and feeling on the same level.
The third line is a Man line in the interieur. So it has three influences. It is the top line of mountain (phase earth) this line is the personal perspective of how things work here on earth. At the same time it is also the central line of water. So this is the central part of the fear or power one is feeling.
And it is also the first line of trigram fire. So our mind is also in play.

This line is on top of the interieur. On the border with the exterieur. There is some chaos because of all the influences one is feeling in the interieur. And it is the question if one can keep direction.

This is a obstruction of a personal nature. Fear in the mind that one is not finding people to connect with.

Frank

Have been looking at the archives to get some ideas about my 39.3>8 reading which is about my dog that lately barks. The question was "why she barks " and its interesting that 39 consists of Ken= mountain=dog and Kan = danger.

Frank's comments about the mind and fear make sense too. Vet said it will take sometime to relax and we try to keep her in a quite place but still she has to walk and go outside. or spend some time outside in a protected garden.

Wonder if anyone has any experience on this line when fear is involved. Not sure what the reading is about but makes me think if I should keep her inside or just keep doing what we were told to do i.e. help her 'return" to the "safe zone" .

In any case, i thought there is a correlation with the quoted comments and the context of my question and thought to post it .

 

[charly]

to get some ideas about my 39.3>8 reading which is about my dog that lately barks. The question was "why she barks " and its interesting that 39 consists of Ken= mountain=dog and Kan = danger.

Hi, Maria:

It makes me remember the poem 23 of the Shi Jing (Book of Odes / Book of Songs / ...) where there is a barking dog, that ends:

無 感 我 帨 兮
wu2 gan3 wo3 shui4 shi1
DON´T FEEL MY WAIST-SHAWL OH!!!
Oh! don´t touch the shawl of my waist,

無 使 尨 也 吠。[/SIZE]
DON´T SEND (THE) HAIRY-DOG ALSO BARK.
neither send the hairy dog to bark.
​

Chinese from D. Sturgeon Chinese Text Project.
Literal translation mine.

These verses have more aseptic translations like Legge´s or Karlgren´s. The last says...

«Don´t move my kerchief. Don´t make the dog bark!»​

Neither chinese text nor Karlgren says to whom the dog belongs but Legge says that it belongs to the lady. None said that the kerchief is put on the waist or that the dog is not a simple generic dog but a hairy one.

In your case, being a SHE-DOG who is barking I´m wondering if there isn´t somebody trying to seduce you that is what she fears.

I´m also wondering if the young lady of the poem was truly resisting. What´s the meaning of the dead gazelle at the begining of the poem if not « lost virginity»?

Of course, all is a joke. Maybe a bad one.


All the best,


Charly

 

[anemos]

In your case, being a SHE-DOG who is barking I´m wondering if there isn´t somebody trying to seduce you that is what she fears.

ahhhh, that explains !!!

Loki : " Don't go out there Maria, stay home to look after me !!! "


how are you doing ? hope all is well there

 

[EmMacha]

... the image of Mao's Long March or Washington at Valley Forge comes up. Lesser folks would have been broken by their desperate situation. However, they maintained the luxury of their goals and became successful for it.

The hexagram illustrates the situation and the challenges and opportunities available in such a time. It only looks like this Obstruction is the dead end without a future. It is a temporary situation which handled correctly moves on to achieve great things.

Another example could be the 'Trail of Tears' (the enforced migrations of the indigenous Native populations in the Northern Americas to lands thousands of miles away, often on foot) and the current 'Land Back' movement?
Definitely, the were obstructed by the mountain of militarized colonising Empire & it's laws &cultural creep (the water), but they kept their customs & ways, despite numerous ethnic cleansings, broken treaties & cultural genocide attempts (children, stolen, 'native status' removed along with land rights, lands taken for industry, fracking of their water, outlawing of languages ie Hawaii right now, forced expulsion by RMCP from sovereign lands for oil pipelines), yet they still strive to get back to their lands and ways of living in harmony & balance within

LANDBACK

Building lasting Indigenous sovereignty.

landback.org

They had to (still have to) endure all of the atrocities, forced migrations, cultures 7 tribe & family strucures attacked constantly, but they still hold their truth after all these years, so yes, for me the 'Trail of Tears' is a great dynamic example of the energy of hexagram 39