41. Sun / Decrease

[maremaria]

Frank,
I said that the transformation of a caterpillar to butterfly makes a lot of sense to me(intuitively) , as an hex 3 image because I see it as the birth process. In the womb-cocoon the fetus- larva grows. And when the nine months pass or when the caterpillar is already a butterfly or when the time is right in general, the The act of delivering take place. “Unravels the wrap” make sense to me that way.

So I can’t see a death in that metaphor, just a transformation from on stage to another a movement from one dimension to another. This is how I see it now.
Thanks for your response.

Maria

 

[Trojina]

So I can’t see a death in that metaphor, just a transformation from on stage to another a movement from one dimension to another. This is how I see it now.
Thanks for your response.

Maria

What else is death if not transformation ?

 

[maremaria]

I agree that the old self , the old way of being has to die and create space for the new one to evolve. But I think that has already happened ( the death) and in this specific story of the caterpillar –butterfly its about the rebirth process.

I think that the caterpillar is a butterfly of the fetus is a child , in a early stage though

 

[fkegan]

I agree that the old self , the old way of being has to die and create space for the new one to evolve. But I think that has already happened ( the death) and in this specific story of the caterpillar –butterfly its about the rebirth process.

I think that the caterpillar is a butterfly of the fetus is a child , in a early stage though

Hi Maria,
The problem is not how you see a cocoon, but what the first line of hex 41 is about. Line 1 of 41 has no direct connection to a cocoon, the metaphor only comes up as I chose a cocoon or pupal stage (along with pupil, the young student, or the part of the eye) to describe the meaning of the line pattern of hex 4 and the resultant hexagram of hex 41.1 is hex 4.

Also, hex 3 is about the beginning of spring rains with thunderstorms and by extension the first strike of a new project, or any beginning, like a sprout or blade of grass in spring pushing through the soil into the sunshine.

You are most welcome to your personal imagery, though I assume I am also welcome to mine--especially as mine is connected to the line structures of the hexagram.

Do you have an image or metaphor for hex 41.1 or do you just feel cocoons can only be used in your imagery?

Frank

 

[maremaria]

Well, if I’m not mistaken you mentioned first the caterpillar –butterfly-cocoon metaphor and connected with 41.1 > 4

Just because I have connected in my mind with another hex I asked you to understand what dID you meanT. I said I can’t see that in 41.1 >4 and that in my mind I perceive that metaphor in a different way than you do.

Do you have an image or metaphor for hex 41.1 or do you just feel cocoons can only be used in your imagery?

Frank

Lol, Frank . I’ll not bite.


As a matter of fact, I have a lot of images/comics about the consequences of line 41.1 but the strips aren’t in English.
I only found this : http://www.arkas.gr/index.php/gr/1/lang/en04.htm
You can google ARKAS CASTRATO . Maybe you can find something.

 

[rosada]

Looking at this line from a different angle..

I get value considering 41.1 > 4. can be read as Decreasing... Foolishness.
If one is a fool, and wishes to advance, how can this be done? How can you acquire merit?Who will hire you when you have no experience and don't know anything? A tried and true method is to volunteer to help someone in a superior position. The caution is that the one you offer to help will appreciate your donation/sacrifice, and not take advantage of a Fool.

 

[maremaria]

Good example and so true. There are many young people hired with a low salary just to gain some experience in their field. But not all the companies use their services in a right job position. Lots of 41.1 treatment.

I see also an imbalance in the relationship between the one offer help and the one receives. Helping one is not fault but when the strong person by offering makes the others incompetent to handle their own matters then ultimately decrease them. A balanced relationship is the 4 -teacher-student relationship or similar where the teacher’s role is to help the pupils grown up and be self-confident, able to manage their life , to make decisions , learn from their mistakes. Learn how to stand up after a fall and not wait for someone to pick the up.

 

[meng]

as I see it..

Reducing the individual self for the benefit of the whole, is the theme of 41. But in line 1, there's the possibility of diminishing self to the detriment of the whole. A team is made of individuals, for example, but each member must be on their game, or the team suffers.

Same could be said for ego. Reducing ego for the enrichment of the soul is a good thing. But if you reduce it too much, you lose your motivation and energy. "Why am I doing this again?"

I think line 1 and 2 emphasizes the delicacy and potential consequences of relinquishing your self to a collective - within the context of reducing self importance.

 

[bradford]

41.1

For this is the hardest of all:
To close the open hand out of love
And keep modest as a giver.

Nietzsche​

 

[fkegan]

Hex 41 is the loss that can become a sacrifice toward higher purpose. Each line operates within the context of the overall hexagram. The Yang line in the lowly first place gives its all to benefit the 5th line, the ruler, leaving only an open Yin space when it changes. It is the obligation of the gentle Yin ruler to receive this sacrifice and make something special of it.

Hex 4 is the pupal stage transition where there is only the focus upon the structure (cocoon in transition) and the final product to become next (the butterfly). That is the only Yang lines are in the second and 6th places.

Hex 4 arises from hex 41 as the sacrifice or total expression and exhaustion of the Yang first line of hex 41 dissolves the caterpillar into the ingredients of the butterfly which is only background Yin in hex 4.

That is what the line structure indicates. Other associations are personal matters generally conditioned by details in the poetry and commentary which are subsidiary considerations in understanding what the hexagram lines have the meaning that they do.

The meaning of the line in terms of the commentary about finishing one's task and moving on, but the ruler must consider how much he may reduce others can be seen in the equivalent Sabian Symbol (Aquarius 19):

On every hand are the still-smoking embers, but the forest fire is out, and the weary fighters are most jubilant.

Here are two independent structural analyzes of this line. The interpretation from personal associations to the traditional commentary and poetry is just different neither is right or wrong... (de gustibus...)

Frank

 

[maremaria]

Interesting and illuminating posts Meng and Brad. Thank you.

I also see puppets and puppeteers in that line. But I’m not quite sure whether the offer here becomes harmful because of outweight expression of love or for other motives. For example the givers satisfaction of giving and not helping the other.
What do you think ?

Maria

 

[rosada]

Nine in the second place means:
Perseverance furthers.
To undertake something brings misfortune.
Without decreasing oneself,
One is able to bring increase to others.

A high-minded self-awareness and a consistent seriousness with no forfeit of dignity are necessary if a man wants to be of service to others. He who throws himself away in order to do the bidding of a superior diminishes his own position without thereby giving lasting benefit to the other. This is wrong. To render true service of lasting value to another, one must serve him without relinquishing oneself.

That the nine in the second place furthers through perseverance is due to the fact that it has the correct mean in its mind.

The nine is strong and stands in a central place. Hence, perseverance in this attitude serves to further. The line stands at the beginning of the nuclear trigram Chen, the Arousing. This would suggest that it might of its own initiative go to the six in the fifth place, with which it has a relationship of correspondence. If it did this, however, it would demean itself somewhat. It is in keeping with its central position to increase the other without decreasing itself.
-Wilhelm

 

[meng]

Interesting and illuminating posts Meng and Brad. Thank you.

I also see puppets and puppeteers in that line. But I’m not quite sure whether the offer here becomes harmful because of outweight expression of love or for other motives. For example the givers satisfaction of giving and not helping the other.
What do you think ?

Maria

Sorry, I'm not catching the drift of your question.

Maybe I'll take a shot at it. If someone takes joy in their work, then it isn't much of a sacrifice to perform the work, and I don't think line 1 would apply. The times I've found line 1 to apply was when my heart wasn't in what I was doing - for example: looking busy to please the boss, or staying at my desk until the clock says the workday is finished. Rather than being driven by enthusiasm and positive energy, I was being drained by superficial servitude.

 

[maremaria]

Hi Meng,

My questions was whether line 1 talks also about those who help others in such a way that diminish them. . Not very clear in my mind but I ‘ll try to explain my confusion.

The clear part : When the man above cross the limits and use the one below as a puppet in other words manipulate him just because he sees one ready to offer any help. Like a puppeteer who attach strings to a man and transform it to a puppet.

The unclear part:
(Based on “ But one must reflect on how much one may decrease others” without looking Wilhelm’s comments)
a) is there (line 1 ) any warning about the motives of the one below ?
b) is only the one who accepts help can diminish the one who offers or it can occur also the exact opposite

 

[rosada]

Hi maremarie,
The first line in a hexagram refers to what happens BEFORE we get into the experience. To give something up as a sacrifice requires there be a willingness to give. (If one is forced to give something up, it is not Sacrifice, but robbery.) So line 41.1 is about first being willing to give.

This willingness to give is distinct from whether the person actually has anything to give.
I came across an example today in an article about countries needing help from the Peace Corps, but they are saying that while idealistic college kids have their hearts in the right place, what they really need is seasoned experts who can offer practical assistance, 41.2.

 

[meng]

The unclear part:
(Based on “ But one must reflect on how much one may decrease others” without looking Wilhelm’s comments)
a) is there (line 1 ) any warning about the motives of the one below ?
b) is only the one who accepts help can diminish the one who offers or it can occur also the exact opposite

I don't think there's a problem with the "servant's" motives, but he/she may be guilty of naiveté.

No, it's not only the one who relinquishes themselves who can suffer loss, it is also the master or establishment they serve who loses, in the long run.

 

[meng]

Since we're referencing Wilhelm:

Likewise, a decrease in the prosperity of the people in favor of the government is out-and-out decrease. And the entire theme of the hexagram is directed to showing how this shift of wealth can take place without causing the sources of wealth in the nation and its lower classes to fail.

 

[maremaria]

Thanks to both of you.

I find out why this line bothered me. Its like Meng's quote from Whilhelm. It was always there but couldn't "see" it. :bag:

Μaria

 

[meng]

Commentary quotes, such as the above, are the reasons W/B is still my #1 go-to IC. Imo, for a westerner to write off Wilhelm, for any reason, is to miss out on some of the clearest and richest explanations, period. That goes for IC explanations and explanations about life in general. I'm glad Rosada has tenaciously held to it in memorization threads, despite the heckling it occasionally receives.

 

[rosada]

Yep, putting aside Wilhelm would be the worst of 41.2, "He who throws himself away in order to do the bidding of a superior diminishes his own position without thereby giving lasting benefit to the other."

 

[rosada]

# Six in the third place means:
When three people journey together,
Their number decreases by one.
When one man journeys alone,
He finds a companion.

When three people journey together, jealousy arises. One of them will have to go. A very close bond is possible only between two people. But when a man journeys alone,
he finds a companion.

If a person should seek to journey as one of three mistrust would arise.
-Wilhelm

 

[fkegan]

41.2 >> 27. When the structure or position expresses and exhausts itself, the timing of sacrifice changes to hex 27-Nursing or hunger, or the cry from the depths of Self of inner needs. It is the structure and protocol of the sacrifice ritual that channels the depths of personal longing into the sacred.

41.3 >> 26. Personal passion develops focus--the process of reaching for the highest heaven changes to the storing up of energy potential here-and-now. The passionate individual will find someone to relate with. Personal passions in a group of three will find jealousy and relationship complications.

Frank

 

[rosada]

41.3 Decreasing involvement here while I go off to connect with son getting married this weekend.

Back in about ten days.

 

[fkegan]

Hex 41... how loss becomes Sacrifice to the Divine

Hex 41 involves a dual meaning. One is a substantial loss. The other is the achievement of a better outcome by turning that loss into a Sacrifice or the process of connecting a human loss to the Divine. Each line place is viewed within that context, so each line expresses the notion of Sacrifice in human terms and thus tied to a specific situation.

The overall pattern is the appreciation of the Divine process of turning human loss into sacred benefit which will have practical results.

The first line place is the transition from prior conditions and the most lowly place. Thus it speaks of an individual who sacrifices for a superior. Since the overall process is about Divine sacrifice, it is vital to remind the humans involved that this sacrifice is for the Divine not just the human in charge.

The second line deals with structure (legs) or where one stands. In a time of Divine sacrifice everything must be done with moral purity without surrendering personal principles.

The third line place deals with individual passion. An individual alone in the timing of Divine sacrifice easily acquires company. A group of three easily gives rise to jealousies and disagreements arising from human issues that have no part in the relationship to the Divine.

Fourth line place deals with the heart or soul. Sacrifice focused upon the heart solves personal imperfections. This Yin line in the 4th place corresponds to the Yang line in the first place--it is the superior who receives the others sacrifice, this puts an obligation on this line (person) to be worthy of that.

The fifth line, ruler of the hexagram shows a truly successful sacrifice with its excellent result--10 pairs of tortoise shells of the Shang era oracle all agree (they were phrased one positive, the other the negation of the first a good oracle was one yes, the other no, 10 sets all congruent would be great and not at all mere chance).

The sixth line is the transition to subsequent conditions. Here is the results of Divine sacrifice, one ends up not losing even though you give lots in the sacrifice, instead you are rewarded in vast measure for being in tune with the Divine.

The overall pattern is that what may seem as a loss in material terms becomes a means to establish relationship with the Divine. That relationship to the Divine is within and has different outer appearances or social reactions although the Divine controls the final results while human selfishness feels the loss and resists the Divine.

 

[cesca]

Another take on Line 3 is from Wang Bi, who says the three people are the three yin of Hex41 (i.e. Lines 3, 4 and 5). If they travel together, Line 6 loses his companion (Line 3).

It also reminds me of the saying that when you travel alone, you meet people. That has certainly been my experience.

 

[Trojina]

41.3 is often so hard to interpret in divination when there aren't 3 anything in your question,let alone people

 

[bradford]

The odd will try to get even?

 

[Trojina]

The odd will try to get even?

Hi, yes I've played around with that phrase in my mind a fair bit. I've found it hard to apply also. In my own readings anyway

 

[fkegan]

Hex 41.3 >>26

The third line of hex 41 is about personal passion or individual interests taking precedence in the process of making a loss into a sacrifice for higher purpose. Both one person alone and three folks are mentioned in Wilhelm as examples of individual alternatives where personal issues take precedence.

Overall, the developing focus upon personal feelings or passions short circuits the process overall. Rather than the expression of the depths of soul seeking relationship to the Divine we have just hex 26 forming, where inner energy is slowly forming potential and through that potential moving the process along for its next. Thus what starts out in hex 41 as an interaction of deep Self seeking connection to the Divine becomes instead hex 26 the personal potential developing your next concrete situation.

Frank

 

[getojack]

41.3 is often so hard to interpret in divination when there aren't 3 anything in your question,let alone people

Don't you throw three coins? Maybe the three people traveling together are the changing lines, sixes and nines (3 tails/3 heads), and the one man traveling alone is the unchanging lines, sevens and eights? I'm not sure how changing lines might relate to decreasing their number by one, though... or what unchanging lines have to do with finding a companion. Anyway, it's something to consider.