48. Ching / The Well

[ravenstar]

Hilary, ah/oh, gotcha.

Raven,

What an interesting connection, body replenishing cells to lining the well.

Wow meng, thanks, I love this description.

And Frank, your posts are becoming more and more interesting!!! I've read and re-read what you wrote, thank you. It all makes sense to me now.

I think the start of the yang and yin are more on a deeper level. The 7 emotions in acupuncture are on the level of the soul, the level of dualism. The deeper level is the level of Spirit where everything is still One. The baby that is living in the uterus is still living on this deep level. In the uterus(which has the name Bao, translated as enevelop, has the same name as the protector of the heart, they both protect the deepest level of live), is the place where live is starting. It's the place between the kidneys.

In acupuncture they make a distinction bewteen the spirits(shen) and emotions. There are severall resemblances but there are also big differences. The emotions are on the level of the soul.
The spirits and emotions are both stored in the heart. The Spirit is pure and the emotions are potentially pathological. The Spirit belongs to Heaven, emotions to Man. The Spirit is calm and gives a perception of oneness. The emotions give movement to the heart and mind and is grounded in dualism.
So I think the baby is still in reach of the Spirit and not so much connected with emotions.
The baby is also connected with the mothers through the blood of the mother. And the spirit of the mother is living in the bloodvessels, so the influence through the emotions is coming from the blood of the mother.

Frank

 

[maremaria]

Ooh... I like this. Line 4, out in the world, flexing shoulders - or wings, sometimes, but probably shoulders when there's well-work to be done - and so we start doing something to look after 'our well'. 'Assuming responsibility for our life' is also a 28-ish thing in itself - 'noble one sets up alone without fear, withdraws from the time without sadness.'

Funny, I always tend to think of dui as heart. I suppose both are, but kan is in motion: it's the difference between reflection (and inner circulation, conversations, solutions...) and commitment/flow/depths.

Thanks Hilary,
The funny thing is that when my fingers typed that post I wasn’t aware of where that came from. And then reading the following posts of Ravenstar, Frank , Meng and yours , things started to make sense.

I read at LiSe’s site about trigrams and chakras. She says :

Chakra 4 and line 4 of a hexagram. Line 4 is the minister, the wife, the feudal prince. The line of choices and decisions, finding the road. Social consciousness and altruism. Green.
4 Anahata (unbeaten) chakra. Balancing one's surroundings and oneself, love, healing, contentment. Unconditional acceptance.
Man-Earth. Line 4 is man (central 2 lines of hexagram) and earth (bottom line of trigram): earth of man. Earth means acceptance, and reality.
Identity: social
The third and fourth chakra: your road among your fellow human beings, and among all nature's creatures. Are you part of life, of living? If you only look, you also only look at yourself. A stranger to yourself and the world.

How appropriate !!!
We are in line 4, the line of heart, as Frank says . In the line about choices and decision and in a trigram -KAN which is about Heart and motion as Meng pointed it.

This thread is a well ... ( and I'm over-excited, lol )

 

[maremaria]

I too have a little blog which was started just last year, in the March 27th issue, Mind/Body Connection, I wrote.....

http://ravenstarshealingroom.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html (not sure if I'm allowed to post this....


ravenstar

Ravenstar, I like a lot your blog.

Maria

 

[meng]

Body-movement is one way to shift our energies to a higher level, jumping, dancing, breathing and shouting are all devices to make us a little more alert than we ordinarily are. It energizes the body as well as opens our hearts.

I don't use my voice very much these days, but I still tinker with guitars and amps a lot. There's something very energizing (51) about opening wide my front window, and cranking a fire breathing monster up, and letting it rip across miles of desert.

Then comes the high energy of 16 that, imagined or real, calls land-spirits and tribesman to gather in my living room, dancing, chanting, beating drums, and now that too travels across miles of desert.

Afterward, as with a sudden and powerful passing thunderstorm, the air is clean, and I'm back (24) where I belong (48).

Nothing says you have to mope while lining the well. If you get into it, in whatever way delivers you, it's lots more fun. The danger or risk aspect of 29 is critical: no guts, no story. Every life should have a story.

 

[meng]

Martin posted this awhile back. It kinda reminds me of a well, and bumps along the way that may endanger the jug.

 

[frank_r]

I too have a little blog which was started just last year, in the March 27th issue, Mind/Body Connection, I wrote.....

http://ravenstarshealingroom.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html


ravenstar

Hello Ravenstar,

As Maria pointed out a very nice blog. What a lot of information you found already!! And some very interesting ones. :bows:

 

[Tohpol]

I don't use my voice very much these days, but I still tinker with guitars and amps a lot. There's something very energizing (51) about opening wide my front window, and cranking a fire breathing monster up, and letting it rip across miles of desert.

Then comes the high energy of 16 that, imagined or real, calls land-spirits and tribesman to gather in my living room, dancing, chanting, beating drums, and now that too travels across miles of desert.

Afterward, as with a sudden and powerful passing thunderstorm, the air is clean, and I'm back (24) where I belong (48).

Nothing says you have to mope while lining the well. If you get into it, in whatever way delivers you, it's lots more fun. The danger or risk aspect of 29 is critical: no guts, no story. Every life should have a story.

Nice imagery Bruce. I was almost there with you. Must be nice to be away from all the urban smoke....(sigh) I miss the peace and quiet of the country.

Music and nature - essential combination imo. (even if is is coming from a dragon-filled amp).

Nice posts everyone - food for thought and some fresh, cool purified water to settle the emotions.

Topal

 

[ravenstar]

Ravenstar, I like a lot your blog.

Maria

Thank you so much Maria! And LiSe's site on Trigrams and Chakras is a true Gem! Thanks for pointing it out......I'm absorbing it like a sponge!

ravenstar

 

[ravenstar]

Hello Ravenstar,

As Maria pointed out a very nice blog. What a lot of information you found already!! And some very interesting ones. :bows:

Thank you so much Frank! As you may have noticed, I'm still in the Well but slowly beginning to climb out

ravenstar

 

[ravenstar]

I don't use my voice very much these days, but I still tinker with guitars and amps a lot. There's something very energizing (51) about opening wide my front window, and cranking a fire breathing monster up, and letting it rip across miles of desert.

Then comes the high energy of 16 that, imagined or real, calls land-spirits and tribesman to gather in my living room, dancing, chanting, beating drums, and now that too travels across miles of desert.

Afterward, as with a sudden and powerful passing thunderstorm, the air is clean, and I'm back (24) where I belong (48).

Nothing says you have to mope while lining the well. If you get into it, in whatever way delivers you, it's lots more fun. The danger or risk aspect of 29 is critical: no guts, no story. Every life should have a story.

Wow meng! Like topal said, I'm almost there with you. I love how you've creatively opened our inner eye as well as given us insight into the various hexagrams.

As a novice, I am honored to be here with you all!

ravenstar

P.S. love your insert of Martin's post.....it's so fits the Well!

 

[meng]

Nice imagery Bruce. I was almost there with you. Must be nice to be away from all the urban smoke....(sigh) I miss the peace and quiet of the country.

Music and nature - essential combination imo. (even if is is coming from a dragon-filled amp).

Nice posts everyone - food for thought and some fresh, cool purified water to settle the emotions.

Topal

Thanks, nice to have you along! Yeah, for me the view is intoxicating, but it's growing fast. In just the last year or so, most of the view from the back has been replaced with new houses. Fortunately, my neighbors encourage me to crank it up louder! One even built a sort of mini amphitheater in his backyard, and told me it was for my "performances"! Hopefully, the not yet lived in house on the other side of me attracts other tolerant folks as well. But the front is all BLM owned land, miles clear across the valley, and so far there's no plans for developing it, that I know of. It's inspiring to look out the window, and not a day goes by when I'm not thankful for that. One thing about open spaces is, it's easy to take it for granted. Back east, on the other hand, you can have just a few square miles of trees, hills, thick green growth, and probably a brook running through it, and it feels like Eden itself! I sometimes really miss that. I'm sure it's this way in many, many places around the world.

This place (Mohave desert) is almost entirely yang. The merciless and long lived daily sun, the utter absence of shade, unless you're the size of a rabbit or less. It's given me clearer insight into the lines of hex 55, where being covered from the sun is not always a bad thing.

Sometimes, though, I'd give this all just to again sit on a grassy pond bank under a willow, and to feel the dark, moist, organic yin earth again.

I think the well is the same for everyone, in that it is the center of where we live. That may be in a busy city or a lazy desert. It's what we make of it, I think, and that goes back to the story.

 

[rosada]

48.5
0 Nine in the fifth place means:
In the well there is a clear, cold spring
From which one can drink.

 

[maremaria]

I
Afterward, as with a sudden and powerful passing thunderstorm, the air is clean, and I'm back (24) where I belong (48).

.

:bows:

 

[ravenstar]

48.5
0 Nine in the fifth place means:
In the well there is a clear, cold spring
From which one can drink.

Thought I'd be the first in looking at 48.5

I think that it has to do with learning by trial and error about our own existence and the effect we have on other people. Is it about being yourself, being honest with yourself and hoping for the same spontaneity from others?

Some of us are so afraid of making mistakes, so instead of flowing confidently (drinking) with this unpredictable energy, we cling to the 'safe and familiar' with all our might. We know that life is passing us by but we're afraid to let go, take the plunge and see where life is taking us.

Self development is about knowing what we want. It's about knowing our strengths and weaknesses with not being afraid to acknowledge them. The things we did in the past are no longer 'a secret' that we must struggle to keep hidden. It's about sharing information, openly, honestly with ourselves first and then with others. It's internal, emotional, spiritual and the ability to acknowledge, accept and love ourselves.

Nurturing our body, mind and soul, awakens our spirit, unclogs our aura and is an inspiration to an individual and to those around them.

ravenstar

 

[rosada]

A well that is fed by a spring of living water is a good well. A man, who has virtues like a well of this sort is born to be a leader and a savior of men, for he has the water of life, Nevertheless, the character for "good fortune" is left out here. The all important thing about the well is that its water is drawn. The best water is only a potentiality for refreshment as long as it is not brought up. So too with leaders of mankind. It is all important that one should drink from the spring of their words and translate them into life.
-Wilhelm

 

[frank_r]

48-5

The fifth line in 48 is the line of the ruler, it has help from the 4th and 6 th line. It is the central line of water, and the top line of the nucleur trigram fire.
The well is pure here. The water in the well is in contact with the essences.

In man's world Kan represents the heart, the soul locked up within the body, the principle of light enclosed in the dark - that is, reason." Wilhelm

In acupuncture they call the point where live is starting Ming Men(life gate), it's a point on the back just under the second lower spine. They also call it the little heart and this point is connected with trigram water.

The soul on the central spot of water is in contact with the pure water in the well.
Now water is changing in trigram earth, so all people can benifit from this pure well water. And the nucleur trigram fire is changing in thunder(part of phase wood), so there is a new cycle starting here.

So both water and fire change, the deepest axis is changing to start a new cycle for the benefit of all people.

The nucleur trigram is changing into thunder and because hexagram 48 is also a quantum hexagram of thunder. This new cycle will also start on a deeper level, on one there has never been before.

The source of water, the well is a point where even the biggest rivers start. Everything start from the well.

Frank

 

[maremaria]

48.5

A feeling of relief comes out from that line, like something is flowing smoothly, maybe. The spring is there providing clean, fresh, cold water and we have make/have a good well to accept it and fulfill it with drinkable water

 

[maremaria]

That line makes me think my pranayama exercises. Exhalation is much easier for me while inhalation becomes easier after a few breathing cycles. It feels like there are things inside my body that need to go out. Like a dirty pipe where impurities blockage the water/air. After a few exhalations feels like there is more room for air/prana to enter. Lining the well looks like the exhalation stage ( removing the obstacles within the pipe) while inhalation and the sence of the body is filled with prana reminds me in a way line 5.

Very primitive observations (I’m at the beginning of understanding prana concept) but I see connection with this hexagram.

 

[meng]

The fifth line in 48 is the line of the ruler, it has help from the 4th and 6 th line. It is the central line of water, and the top line of the nucleur trigram fire.
The well is pure here. The water in the well is in contact with the essences.


In acupuncture they call the point where live is starting Ming Men(life gate), it's a point on the back just under the second lower spine. They all so call it the little heart and this point is connected with trigram water.

The soul on the central spot of water is in contact with the pure water in the well.
Now water is changing in trigram earth, so all people can benifit from this pure well water. And the nucleur trigram fire is changing in thunder(part of phase wood), so there is a new cycle starting here.

So both water and fire change, the deepest axis is changing to start a new cycle for the benefit of all people.

The nucleur trigram is changing into thunder and because hexagram 48 is also a quantum hexagram of thunder. This new cycle will also start on a deeper level, on one there has never been before.

The source of water, the well is a point where even the biggest rivers start. Everything start from the well.

Frank

Hey Frank,

I had to read this, leave and return to it a couple times before I got the picture. But what is a "quantum hexagram"?

 

[meng]

Maria, clearing the pipes is exactly what's happening between lines 4 and 5. I think your Pranayama exercises is wonderful example.

 

[meng]

Thought I'd be the first in looking at 48.5

I think that it has to do with learning by trial and error about our own existence and the effect we have on other people. Is it about being yourself, being honest with yourself and hoping for the same spontaneity from others?

Some of us are so afraid of making mistakes, so instead of flowing confidently (drinking) with this unpredictable energy, we cling to the 'safe and familiar' with all our might. We know that life is passing us by but we're afraid to let go, take the plunge and see where life is taking us.

Self development is about knowing what we want. It's about knowing our strengths and weaknesses with not being afraid to acknowledge them. The things we did in the past are no longer 'a secret' that we must struggle to keep hidden. It's about sharing information, openly, honestly with ourselves first and then with others. It's internal, emotional, spiritual and the ability to acknowledge, accept and love ourselves.

Nurturing our body, mind and soul, awakens our spirit, unclogs our aura and is an inspiration to an individual and to those around them.

ravenstar

This is commentary on Wilhelm's commentary, even though I don't believe you did it consciously. But it sure lines up well with:

"However, there are two prerequisites for a satisfactory political or social organization of mankind. We must go down to the very foundations of life. For any merely superficial ordering of life that leaves its deepest needs unsatisfied is as ineffectual as if no attempt at order had ever been made. Carelessness-by which the jug is broken-is also disastrous. If for instance the military defense of a state is carried to such excess that it provokes wars by which the power of the state is annihilated, this is a breaking of the jug."

But you go further, and say that taking the safe road isn't always the way, that sometimes it takes a leap of faith to get to the good stuff.

 

[frank_r]

Very primitive observations (I’m at the beginning of understanding prana concept) but I see connection with this hexagram.

Maria, a nice anology inhalation and exhalation - prana and the Well.

When you exhale the inpure( CO2) is coming out and the pure(prana) is going to the well(history- water) then you can say. It's fine, what happened is alright it's living in the moment.

Frank

 

[frank_r]

Hey Frank,

I had to read this, leave and return to it a couple times before I got the picture. But what is a "quantum hexagram"?

Hello Bruce,

On the site of Lise there is a very good explanation about the Road from one hexagram to the other.
http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/structures/index.html.

Then go to the Big Pattern and on the bottum of this page there is : The roads from one hexagram to the other(underlined) When you do this technique then is 48 the road between thunder and thunder. A so called quantum hexagram. There is a change of energy although the energy(thunder) itself isn't changing. Very interesting technique I think. On the cards look to station 3, the station of thunder, 48 is in the centre.

Others are 47, 21, 22, 17, 18 , 63 and 64.

Frank

 

[rodaki]

hi to everyone!

if you don't mind backtracking a bit, I was thinking about 48.4 and would like to hear your opinions (but if you feel this muddies the waters, it can always be a different thread )

It seems to me that there are strong affinities between lines 29.4, 47.4 and 48.4 . . could it be that they say the same story from different viewpoints?
I'm saying that because they appear to me as sharing a number of common elements:
-In 29.4 someone in a pit receives from an opening provisions: could that someone be lining a well? Maybe a spirit lives in the well and is given 'earthen' support? (A couple of years ago I saw an Italian movie based on true facts about a young boy who was abducted and kept in an old well. Another boy discovered him and brought him food which he lowered in the well with a rope). Maybe the point of view of someone helping in the lining
-In 47.4 there is a slow coming, encaged in a gilded chariot which can be a metaphor for the order and responsibility given to the executioner of a deed by someone higher up. Could that be the responsibility of lining the well? An honourable job which happens slowly but might feel bit claustrophobic, being inside the well? Could be the POV of the one doing the lining
-In 48.4 the well is being lined and that is indispensable as well as slow-the POV of the people living around the well, those who have decided and appointed to someone the work of the lining and rest in peace knowing that this might take time but needs to be done . .


rodaki

 

[meng]

Hello Bruce,

On the site of Lise there is a very good explanation about the Road from one hexagram to the other.
http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/structures/index.html.

Then go to the Big Pattern and on the bottum of this page there is : The roads from one hexagram to the other(underlined) When you do this technique then is 48 the road between thunder and thunder. A so called quantum hexagram. There is a change of energy although the energy(thunder) itself isn't changing. Very interesting technique I think. On the cards look to station 3, the station of thunder, 48 is in the centre.

Others are 47, 21, 22, 17, 18 , 63 and 64.

Frank

Whew, Frank! I'm with ya right up to the technique itself, where I get totally lost. LiSe loses me all the time in her ever expanding maze of treasure troves. I'll ask her to explain it, here or to me, and I'll get back to this. I'm not yet seeing what makes the noted hex's especially quantum.

 

[meng]

Heya Rodaki,

Pointing to the LiSe link that Frank just pointed to, it points out: "The fourth line with decisions, finding the road, choices." That's at least one thing the lines have in common. The forth line does something about the situation.

Lookit 49.4:
"Remorse disappears. Men believe him.
Changing the form of government brings good fortune."

50.4
Here's a case where the lining didn't go so well, or maybe it was a recklessly handled clay pot.
"The legs of the ting are broken.
The prince's meal is spilled
And his person is soiled.
Misfortune."

I see the connections in your examples too. And the story building always has been, for me, the fun stuff. Making those connections as a network. And not a pre-designed schematic of how things "should be wired", but a continuously changing way, a schematic that evolves. I thought the beginning would be in the mind somewhere. But Frank says it's located in around mid spine, or the little heart? Would like to know more about that.

 

[rodaki]

hi Meng,

same here, would love to hear more about the 'little heart'! Though empirically I can see how decisions may not in fact come from the mind but from the way we hold ourselves (spine)
Funny, just the other day looking to read about trigram Water in LiSe's site I run into the page where she has the sketch of man next to a hex. and thought it was most helpful to my understanding of lines . . and yeah it feels like a decision is standing in line four!
most curious about 50.4 but I should not be rushing forward recklessly

rodaki

 

[charly]

... Maybe a spirit lives in the well and is given 'earthen' support?...

Dora:

Ideed. There is always a spirit living in a well. I believe that this is the reason why H.48 says:

改 gai3: to change / to alter / to transform / to correct
邑 yi4: town / city / walled settlement
不 bu4: not / no /
改 gai3: to change / to alter / to transform / to correct
井 jing3: well / spring / pit / mine
​

CHANGE the TOWN but DO NOT CHANGE the WELL​

Towns were centers of political power. Nobody but a high ruler is allowed to move or change it. For common people to move a town is impossible.

The character 邑 has two components, a WALLED settlement atop and something like a SNAKE or a kneeling person below. Many old towns were built over the corpse of a sacrified captive for the spirit be guardian of the town and to prevent walls collapsing.

Also WELLS were menaced by the risk of collapsing, thus the need of lining it. But they are guarded not by the spirit of a dead person but by a DEITY or by a BEWITCHED person. At least so happens in folk stories all around the world.

Make the impossible but do not alter the spirit's residence.​

In the town reside gods from the official pantheon, mainly ancestors of the actual rulers. The intent of moving a TOWN is a sin but worse sin is the intent of moving a WELL for there reside Old Gods that become almost Demonic, sometimes generous, sometimes vengeful.

The own WELL is a GOD, more often a GODDESS, or somebody that represents her. The spirit accepts OFFRENDS, nowadays mainly coins, and grants WHISHES in turn.

About the construction made by the human hand, it's not the more important, which are the SOURCE and the guardian SPIRIT.

LIFE - LOVE - LIBERTY - TRUTH
Here there are some stuff about sacred wells, things like this:
​

St John of the Divination, Greek Macedonia
Today was also known as the Feast of St John of the Divination because of the practice of fortune telling on this day. Young girls drew water from wells and left it out all night in a jug, with the white of an egg. By perusing the results, she would find out the identity of her future husband.

From:http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/book/jun24.html

I believe that in China the sipirt has often the appearence of a FROG, as ancient spirit of WATERS, messenger of a GODDESS as a bewitched bride.

Yours,

Charly

 

[frank_r]

I'm not yet seeing what makes the noted hex's especially quantum.

Hello Bruce, what is making all this hexagrams quantum hexagrams is that they are all build up with young yang and young yin, so all these hexagrams will stay a while the same. None of them are changing, they are all in the horizontale axis the axis from the earth. The axis from spring and autumn. The axis from the 3 Hun(the ethereal soul) on the place of thunder in the Lo Shu and the 7 Po(physical soul) on the place of lake in the Lo Shu.

Frank

 

[rodaki]

hi Charly,

I want to thank you for doing all these posts with chinese, it had never occured to me before o ) but I can actually learn a bit of chinese here! (or, well, understand a bit . .)
By the way, in Greece tradition has it that bridges were built over a sacrificial victim and there is a very well known traditional poem/song about a bridge that kept collapsing at nights until the head of builders sacrificed his wife (Maria I'm sure you know this one ) but I didn't know about the chinese one . . it makes much more sense knowing it!


rodaki