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50. Ting / The Caldron

lucia

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Ha ha ha Rosada I thought you meant the other one....

I could understand Obama but hilary (HILARY??) I had to superglue the reply button and remind myself to keep my political beak out of it!!

At least the dead folks aren't all white dead folks which is what is usually served up in the lists of greats....

ho hum

Lucia
 
M

maremaria

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Maria - "To know the seeds (dots?), that's divine indeed." Your dots analogy also appears as 64 hexagrams.

Dots as 64 hexagrams, haven't make that connection but yes it fits in my mind.
 
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charly

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The jade rings in the highest place show the firm and the yielding complementing each other properly... here it is seen from the standpoint of ... who bestows. ... the firmness of metal manifests itself here as the soft sheen of jade... halfway with the proper receptivity.
-Wilhelm
Ros:

I was lasts days out of my work and I cuoldn't read the thread.

I always wondered why Legge and Wilhelm translated as RINGS, that are maybe the HANDLES of the cauldron that former lines called EARS.


ding3: tripod / sacrificial bronze vessell / cauldron
yu4: jade / precious
xuan4: bar for bronze tripod / pole / rod / bar / device for carrying a tripod

: da4: big / great
ji2: fortunate / lucky

wu2: without / not / no / avoid
bu4: not / no
li4: benefit / profit / profitable​


CAULDRON 's JADE POLE
BIG LUCK / MUCH FORTUNATE
NO UNPROFITABLE!


This POLE is the same 金鉉 jin1 xuan4, metal pole , bronze pole or golden pole that appears at the fifth line. While the rings or handles are two, like the EARS, the pole is single, like ... say the NOSE.

In Rutt words:
«the lugs were like fixed rings on the top edge of the ding A carrying-rod could be slipped throught them»
R.Rutt: Zhouyi. Page 342
Maybe you can see it at Google Books

Say the SLIPPING ROD is hard but soft, like jade, and this is the line after consummation ! Maybe Legge mistook the rod with the lugs? Maybe the same became with Wilhelm? And the same with so much translators? I don't trust.

Maybe Confucius could apport some light:

images

(if the picture doesn't appear, see the quoted source)

Close up of finger gesture:
Sometimes the Chinese were less subtle. Three Federal Reserve Bank of China notes depict Confucius allegedly making an obscene finger gesture while striking a typical pose with folded hands... The note is actually known as "The Vulgar Wiseman" by collectors.

Smith and Matravers say about this vignette:
«The “worthy” who appears on the note is making an obscene gesture…This has been widely interpreted as a patriotic gesture of the part of the Chinese engraver to show distaste for the Japanese occupiers of Northeast China.»
From: WWII ALLIED PROPAGANDA. BANKNOTES. by HERBERT A. FRIEDMAN
at: http://www.psywarrior.com/WWIIAlliedBanknotes2.html
search The Vulgar Wiseman

In the fifth line EARS/ RINGS (♀)are yellow while the SLIPPING POLE (♂) is golden, a promise of equality for both genres (1).

In the sixth line the POT almost disappears and the POLE become precious, the promise of everlasting strenght. But excessive promises are unreliable, strenght doesn't last for ever, 50.6 also passes.

Yours,

Charly


___________________________________
(1) About the fact that EARS symbolize WOMEN, remember that qu3 (to take/to get/to choose/to fetch) used to be translated as to MARRY, three out of five times that appears in the Zhou Yi is speaking of women:

4.3: 勿用取女... / don't use to catch a girl ...
31.0: ... 取女吉。/ ... catching girls, lucky (or lucky for catching girls).
44.0: ... 勿用取女。/ ... don't use to catch a girl.
56.1: ... 斯其所災。... a place for catching calamities (maybe a brothel)
62.5: ... 公弋取在穴。The duke (or male) shoots an catches those who are in a hole (or cave).

has two components, at the left a EAR, at the right a HAND with a STICK (meaning action).

Even more, the same components with LADY below means TO MARRY / TO TAKE A WIFE (from the male point of view), say to catch a girl by the ear.
 

my_key

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In the sixth line the POT almost disappears and the POLE become precious, the promise of everlasting strenght. But excessive promises are unreliable, strenght doesn't last for ever, 50.6 also passes.

Charly

I like this train of thought. The flow of the hexagram didn't really work for me with rings instead of handles. 50.6 is moving beyond the transformation activity of lines 1 to 5 and now we are talking about the "device for carrying a tripod". The mechanism that supports and gives strength for the cauldron to work it's magic.
Janice earlier was saying that this line was potentially about "power of will". This could be it, the tool to keep the pot boiling. Or pehaps there is another power souce here that can be tapped into - What thoughts?

How about something like:
50.6 - You have built a permanent oven to support the cauldron. It's going to be able to bubble away nicely on gas mark 3 and what is more it's going to be more difficult to tip it over now.

Mike
 

charly

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... The mechanism that supports and gives strength for the cauldron to work it's magic. Janice earlier was saying that this line was potentially about "power of will". This could be it, the tool to keep the pot boiling....
Mike:

I like the image although I don't know if I undestand you well.

How about something like:
50.6 - You have built a permanent oven to support the cauldron. It's going to be able to bubble away nicely on gas mark 3 and what is more it's going to be more difficult to tip it over now.

Mike

The fire below the cauldron, I like it. Even more, sometimes there is fire inside the cauldron!

Yours,

Charly

__________________
Who asked if the ears were the handles of women? Maybe ancient chinese writers thinked so. Psychoanalists think another way, they believe that ears symbolize female intimity. Historians thinked that ears are tokens of killed enemies. Possibilities have no end.
 

ravenstar

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Hi Janice
The course was related to business improvement and personal empowerment within the workplace. It was a new exercise that my co-trainer brought into the course at the time. It had amazing results with how people saw themselves. It's funny how little things pop back in our head like that at the most opportune moments.

Mike

Mike

Hi Mike,

I almost worked at a business improvement and personal empowerment company called Peak Performance. Huge companies invested alot of money to have their employees take the course. The only thing stopping me was the hours and my old job called me back after being laid off.

Bamboo, what a remarkable story. Without hesitation the Divine Mother's answer went straight to the deepest level of your being, lifting the weight of the world off your shoulders and instantly filling you with peace, joy and laughter.

Rosada, that was very intuitive of you to see the connection of Bamboo's story and Hex 3. Will we be going back to the beginning when done? I'd love to start from the beginning....if it's possible.

Sparkhawk, the jade jewellry is beautiful!

Charly, there is such a wealth of information in your post, there's so much I still need to learn and understand.

Are we all in the midst of embracing change? I know I am. Each hex, each line definitely is talking to me on some level and Hex 51, is no exception. In fact I think it's going to make a big impact!

There is such a synergy of energy flowing in this forum. There's so much truth in the fact that we need other people to energize our outlook and find the best that's in it.

May you ALL prosper as the New Year Approaches.

ravenstar
 

lucia

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In southern spain there are millions of 100 peseta shops - tiendas super baratas - some of them are owned by chinese immigrants.

Some of them are so kitsch they are fabulous (if you like hunting through cheap but gaudy junk). They have these small pots sold as ornaments or I've seen bigger ones and people put plants in them.

They are fake copper, slightly bulbous and they have handles near the top that look like ears flattened against an animal but with a slight bulge and a pattern on. And on the top of the pot on either side is 2 rings.

Reading charly's post just reminded me - they had handles/ears and rings!

lucia
 
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maremaria

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I have a lots of past posts to catch up but what Ravenstar said ,

There is such a synergy of energy flowing in this forum. There's so much truth in the fact that we need other people to energize our outlook and find the best that's in it.

reminds me the question Kevin posed for the late meeting of Clarity and the answer he got

‘What do we need to know about making personal change real?’
Yi’s response was simply – 58 (no changing lines)
 

rodaki

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hello everyone :)

dear Charly:
xuan4: bar for bronze tripod / pole / rod / bar / device for carrying a tripod
( . . .)
This POLE is the same 金鉉 jin1 xuan4, metal pole , bronze pole or golden pole that appears at the fifth line. While the rings or handles are two, like the EARS, the pole is single, like ... say the NOSE.

I was wondering if this pole could be any way related to the 'stick' of hexs 59 and 60 (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=7103) . . .
the far right character in xuan4 also reminds me of the character in LiSe's site for hex. 43, the speaking staff . . or is it just my scribblings? (remember Gandalf's staff in the Lord of Rings? it seemed like a walking staff but was in fact the source of his power)

form LiSe's 43:
GUÀI: parted, to fork, certain; secret signs made with the fingers; archer's thimble. With radical water: to open a passage

also really inspirational are LiSe's ideas in http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/origins/index.html under the heading "From Gui to Gua"
is this then why one does not need the whole Ding of the Yi but only the pole?
would you say that association could stand a chance?
just brainstorming here . .

:bows:
rodaki
 
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Sparhawk

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plus some good humour from Luis and Dobro....OK plus some attempted humour from Luis and Dobro.;)

:eek: What do you mean for "attempted"? That was our best shot! Dobro is my Costello, my Laurel, my Harpo... :rofl:
 

rosada

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:eek: Luis is shocked.
:rofl: The rest of us are giggling.
:cool: What a cool segue to 51!
 
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frank_r

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Here we are at the last line of 50. With this last line we are going to the centre of the Yi.
In Chinese phylosophy the number 50 is also written as 5 and 10. This makes together 15. The number of the Lo Shu, the three Earths (5 and 5 and 5) Thats why 50 is the expression of the Tao. Also why we use 50 yarrowsticks for making a divination( putting one stick(the TAO) aside so we can make the change(49) visible.).

With this line we come into hexagram 32 the central number of the Yi. This hexagram has the name Heng - continuity. The same name as the so called extra ordinary Fu(brain, marrow, bones, uterus, bloodvessels). These physical parts of the human body give us the continuity of live.

When looking closer to 32 we see that the trigrams are thunder and wind, both belonging to the element/phase wood. And the nucleur trigrams are heaven and lake both belonging to metal.
These elements are standing on the place of young yin and young yang.
So this tells us that this situation will stay a while like this.

In 32 there is a situation of metal and wood, the place of our physical and ethereal soul. This is the place where we live our human live, the place where our soul is fed. Here we learn how good and bad has its influence. With these experience we can feed our Spirit when we are not on this earth anymore.

For everybody, have a good change of the year!
Frank
 

rosada

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Could The Caldron be about Heaven, or spirit without a body, and copulation to create a body? 50.6 could refer to strength now being at exhausted but transforming into 32. Duration, creating a new body that will endure?

50. Heaven. Success.
The superior man knows man is fated to die, to lose his body, so he endeavors to live even now on earth as he would live without a body, and thus align himself with heaven.
 

rosada

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Also seeing how "Caldron" could mean "gene pool" .
 

rdspringer

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My Problems with Hexagram 50

My Problems with Hexagram 50



Admittedly, the I CHING is a remarkable document which can serve as a philosophical guide or "tool" for navigating one's personal journey thru the "currents" of the larger social "drifts".

However, I often distrust the patently political interpretations offered in the Chinese text and feel that cultural overlays have obscured interpretations which should today be more scientific or which historically should have remained much more closely rooted in nature.

The hexagram I find to be most offensive in this regard is H 50 "The Ting" (Cauldron) which is said to be a bronze food-warming vessel dedicated to nourishing only the most aristocratic personages in the imperial hierarchy, specifically the "Prince" (line 5) and the "Sage" (line 6).

Of course, the usual keys for understanding any hexagram are the four (yes "FOUR": two "primary" and two "nuclear") TRI-grams which compose every hexagram.

And even at this basic "key" level I detect some serious problems in the Chinese assignment of "cultural" meanings to what should have remained more "natural". This "Ting" emblem of H 50 and the "Well" emblem of H 48 "are the only two concrete man-made [cultural] objects" which have been assigned to the total array of 64 hexagrams.

Already this is suspicious and soon proves to be ludicrous in the elaborate description of needing to turn this vessel upside down (feet on top) so as to clean it, of altered carrying rings (line 3), hollow "yellow rings" (line 5, the spilling of food on the Prince's garments, of superior jade rings (line 6), and of some obscure and lowly concubine below (line 1).

But I think that the basic error of H 50 "emblematica" was in the Chinese assumption that the nuclear trigram "Li" (a broken line atop two solid lines) means "metal" (hence the idea of the bronze vessel to begin with). It has to be a serious mistake that the Chinese considered "metal" to be one of their "classic elements" along with fire, earth, air, water, and wood.

Sorry, but the time has come to totally dismiss ALL considerations of such "classical elements", Eastern OR Western. If anyone includes such derivative elements as metal and wood, why not include leather and plastic?

Even if we accept H 50's upper primary trigram to be "fire" and the lower primary trigram to be "wood" (or "wind", or both), why assume the overall emblem should be "The Ting". Why not a forge?

And why do the Chinese insist that the "wind" always be "gentle yet penetrating"? Were there no strong winds in China ? Furthermore this trigram is also called "rain" and "ear"!

And the trigram for "fire" is also called "sun" or "clarity of thought" or even (in this dubious food-serving case) a "pheasant"! Nonsense.

And when we analyze the nuclear trigrams, we compound the confusion with names like "lake" and "heaven" assigned to them. How can we take all this seriously? It begs for a radical act of purification which brings me to recommend a basic change in interpreting the eight trigrams in the first place, as follows:

Convert these eight trigram NOUN-meanings into VERB-meanings.

And here they are:



Using these VERBS instead of the old NOUNS, we find the four trigrams of H 50 to be as shown below:



So, what do you say WE start designing another more scientific or "natural" emblem for this H 50 than that ridiculous old "cultural" and "political", Imperial-Chinese artitfact "The Ting"? Any ideas you might have will be welcome.

R. Don Springer
GYM
PAN-
CHE'
 

Sparhawk

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So, what do you say WE start designing another more scientific or "natural" emblem for this H 50 than that ridiculous old "cultural" and "political", Imperial-Chinese artitfact "The Ting"? Any ideas you might have will be welcome.

R. Don Springer
GYM
PAN-
CHE'

Please, by all means, there's only 64 hexagrams in the Yijing (and 8 trigrams). Anyone is welcome to attach any text to those symbols as they wish, not to mention a new symbology too. Sharing a commonality with the "Old, cultural and political" Yijing, by appropriating some of its most convenient and useful symbology, would not make it, well, a Yijing... :D

A classic, a classic is.
 

Sparhawk

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Luis, the real time tuner: a new approach to nature through I-Ching is available in Spanish too :)

http://time-ching-body.blogspot.com/

Yeah, I saw it before searching for his name... :)

I mean, we can all finger-paint the Yijing in our own little desks but I sort of frown at being told that the "model" is what's wrong and not the "painting"... :D
 

lilita

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Ravenstar and my_key,

"You can do magic, believe it or not" is my theme for hexgram 50. in a way, 50 is about what one is really capable of. there is always something to be cooked up, always a new combination of elements... if one is willing... esp when all the chips are down. somehow humans always find a way to make it work anew, thats kind of like the way things are.cinderella got a carriage, among other things, and that relates to 23.6...which is the situation when all seems lost. it really isnt.

50 is kind of magical and cosmic, the quantum soup. the realm of infinite possibility.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR THIS!!!!!! These words are EXACTLY what I needed to hear right now...tears in my eyes

- Lilita
 
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lilita

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laughing now!

Guy wants to set up a meth lab and gets a good cauldron
1. but first has to clean it thoroughly, with rests of soup you will not get a good meth conconction
2. then he cooks his stuff, and affects all his 'friends' and customers, but they are so stoned that they will not harm him
3. his business is prospering, he needs a helper but does not want to pay for one so he makes a girl believe he loves her and she is a great assistant
4. ut oh.. the police, everything overturned and he lands in prison
5. he thinks and thinks, time enough now and no worries about how to get a meal.. so he betters his ways and writes it all down
6. now he is praised as an example for all junks and also all young people for making clear to them what happens when you use your ting for a wrong kind of food

LiSe, LOVE IT!
 

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