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lightofreason

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hilary said:
Since I share Ewald's weird and irrational conviction that divination works, I found the list of threads very interesting. (And why didn't I think of doing that? :duh:) There are some very 59-ish themes coming out there - the loss of a place to live, a refusal to abide by the unwritten communication rules any more, the breakdown of a relationship that's gone beyond its boundaries of 'friendship'. And with 59.2, Yi seems to be observing that things have come apart and encouraging people to acknowledge their need for security and concentrate on what's solid, instead of clutching for handfuls of waves and wind.
As there are 59-ish themes so there would be 38-ish themes or 15-ish themes etc etc for the SAME questions. Research into meaning derivation from conscious and unconscious dynamics indicates that ALL HEXAGRAMS will give meaning to ANY question due to the structure of the IC as a 'language' in representing 'all there is'.

The sorting of hexagrams into best-fit/worst-fit order by local context and identifying the 'best fit' is more the issue. It is possible that the particular questions did elicit the 'best fit' but still doubtful that the method does this consistantly.... but if you need to believe in some magical 'guiding hand' at work then recognise that that hand is also 'guiding' Mr Bush as it is Osama Bin Laden! ;-)IOW it may be playing tricks on you, leading you up/down the garden path and so playing with your unconditional trust (02-ness) ;-) (possession is also possible - see my thread on projection/transference/counter-transference ;-))

The work coming out of empirical research suggests that the excessive beliefs in the 'magical' are just that - magical thinking. If you wish to associate yourself with such as Bush and Osama through sharing the belief that 'god is on your side' you go ahead and do that - it is 'predicted' behaviour, as is the behaviour of careful, empirical research into what is going on in our brains and how we can come up with such concepts in the first place. Ewald's prose expressed a perspective of 'divination only' and his logic was false in linking the dots to support (!) such a perspective. Simple.

hilary said:
Chris, if you're developing an interest in the meanings of ancient Chinese characters, the Eranos edition is not the best authority. But I'm sure someone would be willing to help you out with recommended dictionaries. :mischief:
I have dictionaries - my reply was to ewald's particular claim he could not find reference to 'support' anywhere. My point was that in the context of the IC interpretations there was such an association with the character in 59.2 Simple. ;-) I then suggested he check is out.
 
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bruce_g

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hilary said:
Yi seems to be observing that things have come apart and encouraging people to acknowledge their need for security and concentrate on what's solid, instead of clutching for handfuls of waves and wind.
The metaphor was a ship, for which running onto solid structure isn't good news. But of course you knew that.
 

mudpie

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i see tom hanks in the movie survivor. when everyting is dipersing and you're lost at sea, you sure better hurry to what supports you. your world will never be the same, but you quickly cling to -or hurry towards -some semblance of stability to carry you through... a life raft, an island, a makeshift friend named Wilson.
in this image both wilhelm and karcher are right: your world has dissolved, and you can no longer rely on the old structures which supported you, but you use your wits and hurry to what you know WILL support you as this new adventure unfolds.
 
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lightofreason

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Lets see what we can do with all of this. If we use one set of associations we have for 59 in general:

59 Dispersion (Dissolution)
Dispelling Illusions
In a context of containment we utilise influence

"HUAN : scatter clouds or crowds; break up obstacles; dispel illusions, fears and suspicions; clear up misunderstandings; dissolve, evaporate, disintegrate, fade, vanish; fog lifting or clearing away."ERANOS p622

If we then let the I Ching describe itself, and in particular 59, so we have such analogies as:

Infrastructure of 59, its 'skeletal' form, described by analogy to 60

"CHIEH : seperate and distinguish, as well as join different things; express thought through speech; joint, section, chapter, interval, unit of time; regulations, limit; zodiacal sign; lit:nodes on bamboo shoots" ERANOS p630

In other words the overall focus covers setting down of standards, of clear distinctions and so in 59 by acting to 'lift the fog' of misunderstandings.

59 begins with, keeps coming back to 61:

"CHUNG FU -

CHUNG : inner, central; calm, stable; put in the center; stable point which enables you to face inner and outer changes; middle line of a trigram. The ideogram: field divided into two equal parts...
FU : accord between inner and outer in a particular moment; sincere, truthful, verified, reliable, in accord with the spirits; capture; prisoners, spoils;..The ideogram:bird's claw enclosing young animals, possessive grip."ERANOS p636

The source of nourishment for 59, what its skeletal form use for 'food' to allow for structuring (and so gets 'into' the structure as a colouring does to rice) is described by analogy to 52:

"KEN : limit, boundary; encounter an obstacle, stop; still, quiet, motionless; confine, enclose, mark off; turn around to look behind; hard, adamant, obstinate; perverse. The ideogram: eye and person turning around to compare and group what is behind."ERANOS p559

ALL of these show a 'bias' to clearness, to clarity and so 'lifting the fog' etc - in other words any dispersion is not 'random', it is proactive, focused, intentional.

The 'lifting' aspect comes from wind in the top but in this top position the focus is on wind becoming influencial (cultivation doubled). The hexagram reads "with containment comes becoming influencial" and that brings out the nature of' lifting the fog.

For the rest see the spectrum of 59 in:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/x110010.html

Chris
 

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lightofreason said:
IMHO your conclusion are rushed ;-) a need for instant gratification perhaps? ;-)
In theory, there is no difference between practice and theory, but in practice, there is.
 

Sparhawk

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My lighthearted take here:

59.2 > 20

:D

L

PS: Actually, the imaginary falcon bit comes from the ideograph for Guan that shows a bird with bright and wide open eyes... :)
 
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cjgait

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Dispersion

My informal translation of the tag for this hexagram is not Dispersal but Dissipation. Force is bleeding away, spurting out, as in the ancient images of this gua (and they're none to pleasant, either).

This gua is in direct contrast with the images of the 60th.

The Yi Jing on Silk has 'stairs' instead of table. The verb in the phrase is 'running away' as in run to save your life. The function of the Qi2 in the phrase is a place for further study. The use of Qi2 in Shang and Zhou inscriptions and documents is sometimes quite odd, in my limited experience with the matter. It often isn't just a possesive particle as in later texts.

So for a translation of the ancient text we get: "(In) Dissipation running (for) the stairs. Regrets vanish."

A confusing text to receive as an Oracle. I often use the later interpretations of the text when using the Yi for advice. The ancient text is often just too remote to speak to me. This line is such a case.
 

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If it has to do with flooding, then running for the stairs makes a great deal of sense. Is this a legitimate possible 'ancient' meaning?
 
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bruce_g

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heylise said:
For 59.2, and especially the character for 'stool', see this page.

LiSe
I love the openness of this for line 2!

Support is where you find it. When it's time to leave a support because it is no longer supporting you or your life, you dissolve and evolve to another support system. Opportunity presents itself by way of introspection of priorities and believability.
 

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hilary said:
If it has to do with flooding, then running for the stairs makes a great deal of sense. Is this a legitimate possible 'ancient' meaning?
Huan isn't really about flooding though. It's about things changing state:
Solid to liquid - melt, thaw, dissolve
Or Liquid to gas - evaporate, dissipate
Things moving beyond old limits, like water carried off by the wind.
The opposite of the contractive behavior seen in Limitation, Gua 60

Even in the old meanings, ben could be either flee from or hasten towads.
The word itself is no help
 

Sparhawk

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heylise said:
For 59.2, and especially the character for 'stool', see this page.

LiSe
That was a nice reading, LiSe. I wasn't that far off the mark... :D

Damn, so much to learn, so little time...

L
 

mudpie

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this is a very interesting thread. I had another image......of 9/11. The people in the building hastened to whatever they felt could support them. some jumped out the windows (fleeing from or hastening towards...?), many took to the stairs.

but in a broader sense, on the day of the 9/11 crisis, most people hastened to call loved ones, to connect with support systems, to pray, find some kind of plateau where they could escape feeling like the "world" as they knew it was ending.

In an even broader sense, the crisis of 9/11 inspired many people to change their lives, jobs, their priorities. my doctor retired and moved to Belise; the lady down the street quit her boring job and became a cabaret singer; a girl who was a barmaid opened up her own pet grooming shop. they could no longer settle for peering at life timidly from behind a curtain
 

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Yeah, when things start to get seriously dicey, people's values and priorities sort themselves out with a wonderful quickness.

If the situation you've described applies to 59.2, then I can understand what the line means immediately.

But there's something else too: there's a kind of control which permeates things when you access a higher mind (and I think that the 9/11 people you described were accessing a higher state, triggered by their imminent mortality) which requires you to do nothing - you're only the witness. This witnessing, I think, is part of 59.2 insofar as Hex 20 comes into play. If what I'm talking about is part of 59.2, then there's no hurrying or running or fleeing required - let it go and let it disperse - cuz all you have to do is open your eyes and your 'new' support is evident.
 
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lightofreason

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At the Species I Ching level of meaning, 59 represents a context of contractive bounding within which is operating contractive binding.

The bound covers a boundary, sharp distinction of A from B.
The bind covers a dynamic relationship, issues covering the sharing of time.

Refine these a bit and we move to emotions and the context is about issues of rejection/rejecting - the focus is on to keep something in or out, an emphasis on protection (the boundary is contractive as compared to that of fire that is exapansive and focuses more on exploitation).

The text of the hexagram, the top trigram, is about issues of anticipation/cultivation (the time emphasis) and the association to the rising nature of wind covers this time element in it becoming influencial.

as the wind become influencial it is working in a context of protection, of sharp differentiation of 'this from that', 'fact from fiction', 'us from them' - from this comes the notion of dispersion of clouds, lifting of fog, and the dispelling of illusions. etc etc etc

WITHIN this whole are aspects brought out by XORing - and so the line 2 position associates with the 07-ness of a hexagram - how are the characteristics of 07 expressed by/through 59.

the Species I Ching qualities are NOT derived from Ancient China etc, they stem from basic dynamics in our neurology as a SPECIES and so show the IC to be a source of analogy/metaphor in communicating locally those dynamics. As such, one can waste a LOT of time trying to interpret some local 'dialect' and so be too focused on the trees and so miss the forest. If you use the basic properies of self-referencing to guide in understanding the forest, and so the general eco-system, it makes the understanding of the trees a lot easier.

Chris.
 
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dobro p

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"the Species I Ching qualities are NOT derived from Ancient China etc"

Well not in so many words, maybe. But if the guys who put the Yi together knew as much about the patterns in things as they obviously appear to, then they had a knowledge of the general just as basic to our species as the one you describe. And sure, it was a localized version they put together - for their people and their time. But just like you can get a lot of mileage out of the Gospels, for instance, and see immediately that it was the product of higher minds than our own, just so can you get mileage out of the traditional Yi, because the very nature of symbol is to be flexible.

I've thought of somebody re-writing the Yi for a modern world, using modern symbols. Not concepts as you do, but symbols. It would go further even than the way you bring emotion into the picture when you interpet hexagram meanings. It wouldn't be limited to just thoughts and emotions. But what a lot of work! I haven't seen the Yi I talk about. If it appeared, it would have almost as much trouble as your own Yi at first. But people who understand symbols would immediately recognize its value as soon as they put it to use. Cuz oracles with symbols work.
 
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lightofreason

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dobro said:
"the Species I Ching qualities are NOT derived from Ancient China etc"

Well not in so many words, maybe. But if the guys who put the Yi together knew as much about the patterns in things as they obviously appear to, then they had a knowledge of the general just as basic to our species as the one you describe.
The traditional IC was put together in an ad hoc manner, difference people added bits as time went on, and the bits added were references to local context as sources of analogy/metaphor for what they were feeling, experiencing. IOW lots of labels to try and communicate 'yin/yang-ness' (where yin/yang are labels themselves)

WIth neurosciences we can now map-out the template that was being filled-in by labels - thus the template is 'fixed', is part of our species-nature and nothing to do with ancient China or Europe or South America etc etc it all to do with the species-nature. NONE of the universal qualities covered in self-referencing of a dichotomy are LOCAL, they are universals, generals, operating at the species level. What IS local is the language derived to communicate such qualities.

What you are seeing in this dynamics of 'filling in the dots' is the actualisation of potentials where the neurology, through self-referencing, will give us a FINITE set of categories to be used by applying an INFINITE number of labels to link the universal to a local context and then add 'colour' to customise that universal.

An example of 'filling in the dots' is best covered in quantum mechanics experiments using double slits - the slits are yin/yang and the wave inteference pattern that emerges in the photographic plate behind the slits is the template being filled-in to show all is connected (as covered in my XOR work and comments on IC/QM links - http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/WaveStructure.html )

We can see, using the binary sequence, the actualisation of categories through the insertion of yang to yin potentials - as such the ease in which we can map 000000 to potentials and the fill-in each position with a '1' reflects the drawing out of potentials
(FIXED forms) to fit an actual - to represent such.

Thus the potentials are in the form of 'all female', the 'void', the 'darkness' where actualisation is in the use of 'light' or the 'male' to fertilise, give birth to an 'actual'. In this binary sequence ordering, 000000 is all potentials (energy conserving), 111111 is full actualisation (high energy expending)

The sequence bias in our brains, sourced in hippocampus activities etc., has a bias to 'males' as does the magnitude bias in our brains, emotions, to 'females'. The female is more qualitative than the male, the male for quantitative; the male can reduce emotions to the notion of 'correct/incorrect' in that THAT is the emotion of syntax (located in our left brains in most).

From that focus on sequence, events are remembered in date/time stamp ordering. For the realm of magnitude historical events are remembered more by their high/low emotional expression - in other words history loses date/time for the sake of qualitative 'value'.

MIX those threads and we have 'us' - IOW the 'pure male' and the 'pure female' are rare, ideal forms that give way to mixing ;-)

dobro said:
I've thought of somebody re-writing the Yi for a modern world, using modern symbols. Not concepts as you do, but symbols.
To map the two threads of meaning all you need is to give hexagrams colour, or more so a background colour onto which is the hexagram. The background colour is the emotional part, the lines the sequence part. (put the hexagram within a coloured circle, and so reflecting the precision differences - our eyes are not as precise as our ears - our eyes can pick up hues at best, not RGB or CYK 'threads' that make up the colour. On the other hand our ears can differentiate each note of a complex chord. The difference between the two is vision is 'immediate' communicatations (and so facial emotion dynamics) whereas audition is more delayed (immediate in the form of unknown sounds, we then have to identify and so sequence things to get meaning).

To reflect the resulting hierarchy that comes with the mixing of the two threads of meaning, just change the format of the hexagram. Thus we have (a) a colour background covering the 64 hexagrams expressing magnitudes (emotions) (b) the image of the hexagram lines covering the 64 hexagrams expressing sequence and (c) the change in perspective to give the 'pyramid' form of representation covering the sense of 'hierarchy' that comes out of the combinations of representations (and so the 64 hexagrams covering hierarchy)

Thus three forms of expressions of 64 hexagrams - and THEN comes more in the different orderings of hexagrams (see the sequences in http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icmatrix.html - also note the use of rotations etc)

The alternative to colouring the background is to colour the lines but that can confuse
the distinctions of (a) being independent of (b) - no (a) no (b), no (b) there is still (a).

This is covered in my comments on projection/transference of emotions where the parallel is immediate, there is no 'sequence', and a complex emotion can be transferred that contains many parts in the form of emotions. a 'look' can do this.

I loaded an image of hexagram 23 in its 'pyramid' format a while back - search the archives or I will see if I can load it again.

dobro said:
It would go further even than the way you bring emotion into the picture when you interpet hexagram meanings. It wouldn't be limited to just thoughts and emotions. But what a lot of work! I haven't seen the Yi I talk about. If it appeared, it would have almost as much trouble as your own Yi at first. But people who understand symbols would immediately recognize its value as soon as they put it to use. Cuz oracles with symbols work.
The IDM material covers all meaning, it is not limited to the IC ;-) it covers all specialisations, from emotions to mathematics to economics etc such that in my recent post covering yin/yang interpretation methods, just replace yin with "NOT-A" and yang with "A" and you have the dynamics of our brains mapping data (self-referencing at work ;-))

I am doing the pyramid form at the moment but the issue is on colours - 64 vs the use of eight to colour trigrams - but then the need for 16 to reflect the differences in 'refinement' of a trigram in lower to one in upper! ;-)

Most people cannot handle complex colour mappings so better to colour 'dark' bottom trigram with 'light' top trigram or something like that.

Chris.
 
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bruce_g

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dobro said:
I've thought of somebody re-writing the Yi for a modern world, using modern symbols. Not concepts as you do, but symbols. It would go further even than the way you bring emotion into the picture when you interpet hexagram meanings.
Paul, I'm not sure if that's possible. Local symbols (signs, according to Jung) would be the stuff of folklore rather than being archetypes. While folklore obviously comes through in the tradional Yi, the core comes from the more universal images, such as the eight trigrams and such, and those remain the same now as they did thousands of years ago. (But don't tell Chris, cuz he thinks he invented archetypes!)
 

martin

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dobro said:
But there's something else too: there's a kind of control which permeates things when you access a higher mind (and I think that the 9/11 people you described were accessing a higher state, triggered by their imminent mortality) which requires you to do nothing - you're only the witness. This witnessing, I think, is part of 59.2 insofar as Hex 20 comes into play. If what I'm talking about is part of 59.2, then there's no hurrying or running or fleeing required - let it go and let it disperse - cuz all you have to do is open your eyes and your 'new' support is evident.
My idea too. I was wondering if 'running for the stairs' perhaps also refers to going to a 'higher' or 'deeper' state (but there is no running involved). And it fits with the text of the hexagram that says that the king goes to the (ancestral) temple.

The astrological correspondence that I have for 59 to 20 is 'moon in mind' (water trigram below wood trigram) to 'neptune in mind' (earth below wood). At least that's one way to read it.
The mind goes from a moon state (personal, perhaps confused, afraid, etc. 'lunatic'?) to a neptune state (impersonal, open, perhaps mystical).
 
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lightofreason

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bruce_g said:
(But don't tell Chris, cuz he thinks he invented archetypes!)
The universals come out of the order that emerges when we contain noise.

If you read through the end section of:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/WaveStructure.html

you will see the emergence of the trigram categories where such categories reflect compression of data.

Consider reality as what we see in telescopes. Then reduce the resolution to that of binoculars, and then reduce THAT to the resolution of naked-eye. The trigrams are like the constellations we see and a such reflect invarient qualities spanning all levels - and in IDM that is basic blending, bonding, bounding, and binding - all else follows (and so layers and layers of archetypes, specialised into sensory forms etc)

For the emergence of order from the containment of noise, Google the 'chaos game'.
THen comes containers in containers etc and so more and more specialisations all rooted in self-referencing. (and so the IC being a container is rooted in self-referencing and so can serve as a language to describe all other container - in general ;-))

Chris.
 
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lightofreason

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We can go past the local into the neurological dynamics covering the two 'threads' I mentioned.

Consciousness is more serial, more focused on differences. whereas the unconscious is more parallel, more focused on sameness (and is good at pattern matching - we see these in the eye where the details differentiates, focus on differences, and the outside parts (parafovea) deals with edge detection , pattern matching, general - the focus on sameness means a focus on integrating over all - a more organic focus. When we get into details and so differentiating, we can get too precise, too much focus on trees than forest, and so mechanistic in focus)

Consciousness will communicate directly, explicitly, whereas the unconscious communciates more indirect, implicitly. Thus to communicate with the unconscious we use projection (as the Emotional IC focuses upon through getting emotions to resonate, project, into 'out there') as well as 'signs' - innuendo, court politics, gossip etc etc etc ;-)

Note the property of universals 'shining through' all of this - as we become more differentiating so we idealise the samenesses, the patterns. Thus we over-doing it in the serial, try to impose universals on local context without customisations etc (and if that is done repeatedly then it becomes an act of neurosis ;-))

THe overall focus is on differentiating and then integrating, as we make distinctions so we 'fill in the dots' such that over time it all connects and we develop good associative memories - useful as we get old ;-)

Chris.
 

martin

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There are concepts, there are symbols and there are archetypes. All different.
Concepts are of the mind, archetypes are not. The mind cannot grasp them with its 'hands', its concepts.

The Yi is basically about archetypes, so what our mind can understand of it is limited. But that does not mean that WE cannot understand it. Our knowing is not limited to what is visible on the screen of our mindcomputer.
Perhaps that is what 59.2 is all about, switch off your computer, leave the cave of reason. :)
 
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lightofreason

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A note on the unconscious/parallel/emotional/body-language realm - from someone else ;-) :

"From a communicative perspective, one of the major attributes of the unconscious is its ability to comprehend interpersonal reality via rapid and perceptive judgements about other people" p59 Holmes, C., (2005)"The Paradox of Countertransference" palgrave

..gets into transference, projections, face processing and all of that parallel processing, pattern matching, 'intuition' etc etc

Chris.
 
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lightofreason

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Martin, the 'chaos game' applies 'outside' of us - we in fact reflect the adaptation to 'out there' and so our archetypes/concepts etc are seeded by the containment of noise that brings out the order and from there the core 'feelings' that we then try and label by symbols etc ( and so project the unconscious to allow for communications)

Thus the blend, bond, bound, bind 'feelings' reflect the basic elements of the universe covering the sense of wholes, parts, dynamic relationships, static relationships and their first level qualifiers (where they become useful by contracting/expanding etc)

Chris.
 
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bruce_g

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lightofreason said:
The universals come out of the order that emerges when we contain noise.

If you read through the end section of:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/WaveStructure.html

you will see the emergence of the trigram categories where such categories reflect compression of data.

Consider reality as what we see in telescopes. Then reduce the resolution to that of binoculars, and then reduce THAT to the resolution of naked-eye. The trigrams are like the constellations we see and a such reflect invarient qualities spanning all levels - and in IDM that is basic blending, bonding, bounding, and binding - all else follows (and so layers and layers of archetypes, specialised into sensory forms etc)

For the emergence of order from the containment of noise, Google the 'chaos game'.
THen comes containers in containers etc and so more and more specialisations all rooted in self-referencing. (and so the IC being a container is rooted in self-referencing and so can serve as a language to describe all other container - in general ;-))

Chris.
But, Chris, this is what we ALL do, dude! Granted, your mapping is more complex, perhaps even more unique and complete in this regard, but the premise is the same.

Your specific method works well for you, and you require a more detailed analysis to make up for what you lose in rejecting the always perfect fit-ness of a reading, which only divination/synchronicity can provide. But, whatever makes you feel better. :rofl:
 
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bruce_g

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martin said:
There are concepts, there are symbols and there are archetypes. All different.
Not sure what definition sources you're using here, Martin. They aren't Jungian. Not that Jung is the end-all, but he has set a standard of terms in this area.
 
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lightofreason

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bruce_g said:
Your specific method works well for you, and you require a more detailed analysis to make up for what you lose in rejecting the always perfect fit-ness of a reading, which only divination/synchronicity can provide. But, whatever makes you feel better. :rofl:
you are suffering delusion - your beliefs are past their use-by/best-before date; your consciousness is not as 'vast' as you think - there is a lot going on outside of your awareness and that is the issue with divination/synchronicity perspectives in that they are not aware of the big neurological 'field' in which consciousness operates.

Your consciousness is driven to 'interpret' and will delve into the 'magical' if need be where there is none.

Since ALL hexagrams apply to ANY moment so 'synchronicity' is possible to detect even when there is none - basic probabilities allow for that.

The Emotional IC or basic IC+ questions show the success of the IC in reflecting 'out there', in sorting things into best-fit/worst-fit order - IOW there is no NEED for the magical perspective - and in fact the questions method is more consistant, more precise, than coin tossing or any other random/magical methodology.

As long as you continue to work with 'archaic' methods you will not get what you could get - more precise, more focused information and with that the ability to be PROACTIVE if need be.

Add to that the XOR material and understanding of the diffeent dynamics in intepreting dichotomies etc and we move way beyond 10th century BC thinking.

Chris.
 

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lightofreason said:
At the Species I Ching level of meaning, 59 represents a context of contractive bounding within which is operating contractive binding.

<snip>

as the wind become influencial it is working in a context of protection, of sharp differentiation of 'this from that', 'fact from fiction', 'us from them' - from this comes the notion of dispersion of clouds, lifting of fog, and the dispelling of illusions. etc etc etc

<snip>

Chris.

Last time I was flying, I spent some time wondering about how the clouds stayed differentiated from the sky- there is a sharp differentiation even when the wind buffets the plane, and the clouds around it. There must be some force that holds the water molecules together, berhaps ionization? So If the context is sharp differentiation, how then does that relate to dispersion?

Rinda
 

martin

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bruce_g said:
Not sure what definition sources you're using here, Martin. They aren't Jungian. Not that Jung is the end-all, but he has set a standard of terms in this area.
Well, I didn't define these terms. :) But when I say that archetypes and symbols are different I use the word 'symbol' in the sense of a concrete image. An archetype is different, more abstract and not or less conscious. Jung in 'Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious':
'Archetypes, so far as we can observe and explain them at all, manifest themselves only through their ability to organize images and ideas, and this is always an unconscious process which cannot be detected until afterwards.'
 
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lightofreason

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rinda said:
Last time I was flying, I spent some time wondering about how the clouds stayed differentiated from the sky- there is a sharp differentiation even when the wind buffets the plane, and the clouds around it. There must be some force that holds the water molecules together, berhaps ionization? So If the context is sharp differentiation, how then does that relate to dispersion?

Rinda
The bottom trigram sets a context of a boundary. WITHIN that boundary is operating 'contractive binding' which relates to dynamic relationships and so focus on time. It is the dynamic focus that brings us the focus on increase in influence (wind in top) as compared to a focus on cultivation (wind in bottom).

The time emphasis is on 'development over time' as compared to the expansive form of binding, thunder, that covers the immediate, the NOW, the beginning, the sudden etc.

This takes into issues of change - I can either get you to change NOW, by direct interaction with you, OR I can get you to change over time by influencing your surroundings and forcing you to adapt. This focus on manipulating of surroundings is manifest in wind as compared to direct manipulation of you that is manifest in thunder.

The trigrams of 59 read "with/from containment comes becoming influencial" - or emotionally we have "with/from rejection comes anticipation of wrong doing" that is also reflected in the proactive form of "with/from rejecting comes anticipation of right doing"

The dispelling of illusions covers the focus on 'facts/values' and their use, their revelation, to lift the fog and so become influencial - we reject the 'fog' as such and in so doing anticipate a better future; by containing things, by emphasising 'this over that' so we become more in control (which is what the generic nature of water covers, issues of containment/control ) and we use 'wind' to do it (or the analogy to a rising wind that influences context and forces adaptation to change WITHIN the boundary)

The 'sharp differentiating' is of values, of rejection/rejecting 'something/someone'. The 'soft' format is in the wind focus as compared to the sudden release in the thunder focus (hex 40).

You can see the aspects of 59 using XOR methods - thus the vague nature of 59, its skeletal form, is described by analogy to hexagram 61 with its sense of 'inner' value, yielding/softening, being empathic, in agreement with etc etc amd the full blown expression of this in 59 covers the sense of agreement, resonance with a 'truth' or 'value' etc once made clear.

In the reverse form, 59 describes the skeletal form of 61 where we cover issues on getting at a truth, fixing an injustice, making something 'clear' etc etc - the Judge being empathic to the prisoner etc

ALso note that 59 shares space with 29 - the only difference is the top line. For 29 the line is yin and this indicates unconditional focus on containment/control. In 59 the line is yang and that means a conditional focus, something particular to 'control' etc.


BTW - the focus on a rising wind is not a fixed property here - you can also have a rising fog - both will influence your surroundings and so elicit change over time - and often the risings go un-noticed and the time factor turns into a surprise, an NOW situation! ;-)


Chris.
 
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