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As there are 59-ish themes so there would be 38-ish themes or 15-ish themes etc etc for the SAME questions. Research into meaning derivation from conscious and unconscious dynamics indicates that ALL HEXAGRAMS will give meaning to ANY question due to the structure of the IC as a 'language' in representing 'all there is'.hilary said:Since I share Ewald's weird and irrational conviction that divination works, I found the list of threads very interesting. (And why didn't I think of doing that? ) There are some very 59-ish themes coming out there - the loss of a place to live, a refusal to abide by the unwritten communication rules any more, the breakdown of a relationship that's gone beyond its boundaries of 'friendship'. And with 59.2, Yi seems to be observing that things have come apart and encouraging people to acknowledge their need for security and concentrate on what's solid, instead of clutching for handfuls of waves and wind.
I have dictionaries - my reply was to ewald's particular claim he could not find reference to 'support' anywhere. My point was that in the context of the IC interpretations there was such an association with the character in 59.2 Simple. ;-) I then suggested he check is out.hilary said:Chris, if you're developing an interest in the meanings of ancient Chinese characters, the Eranos edition is not the best authority. But I'm sure someone would be willing to help you out with recommended dictionaries.
The metaphor was a ship, for which running onto solid structure isn't good news. But of course you knew that.hilary said:Yi seems to be observing that things have come apart and encouraging people to acknowledge their need for security and concentrate on what's solid, instead of clutching for handfuls of waves and wind.
I love the openness of this for line 2!heylise said:
Huan isn't really about flooding though. It's about things changing state:hilary said:If it has to do with flooding, then running for the stairs makes a great deal of sense. Is this a legitimate possible 'ancient' meaning?
The traditional IC was put together in an ad hoc manner, difference people added bits as time went on, and the bits added were references to local context as sources of analogy/metaphor for what they were feeling, experiencing. IOW lots of labels to try and communicate 'yin/yang-ness' (where yin/yang are labels themselves)dobro said:"the Species I Ching qualities are NOT derived from Ancient China etc"
Well not in so many words, maybe. But if the guys who put the Yi together knew as much about the patterns in things as they obviously appear to, then they had a knowledge of the general just as basic to our species as the one you describe.
To map the two threads of meaning all you need is to give hexagrams colour, or more so a background colour onto which is the hexagram. The background colour is the emotional part, the lines the sequence part. (put the hexagram within a coloured circle, and so reflecting the precision differences - our eyes are not as precise as our ears - our eyes can pick up hues at best, not RGB or CYK 'threads' that make up the colour. On the other hand our ears can differentiate each note of a complex chord. The difference between the two is vision is 'immediate' communicatations (and so facial emotion dynamics) whereas audition is more delayed (immediate in the form of unknown sounds, we then have to identify and so sequence things to get meaning).dobro said:I've thought of somebody re-writing the Yi for a modern world, using modern symbols. Not concepts as you do, but symbols.
The IDM material covers all meaning, it is not limited to the IC ;-) it covers all specialisations, from emotions to mathematics to economics etc such that in my recent post covering yin/yang interpretation methods, just replace yin with "NOT-A" and yang with "A" and you have the dynamics of our brains mapping data (self-referencing at work ;-))dobro said:It would go further even than the way you bring emotion into the picture when you interpet hexagram meanings. It wouldn't be limited to just thoughts and emotions. But what a lot of work! I haven't seen the Yi I talk about. If it appeared, it would have almost as much trouble as your own Yi at first. But people who understand symbols would immediately recognize its value as soon as they put it to use. Cuz oracles with symbols work.
Paul, I'm not sure if that's possible. Local symbols (signs, according to Jung) would be the stuff of folklore rather than being archetypes. While folklore obviously comes through in the tradional Yi, the core comes from the more universal images, such as the eight trigrams and such, and those remain the same now as they did thousands of years ago. (But don't tell Chris, cuz he thinks he invented archetypes!)dobro said:I've thought of somebody re-writing the Yi for a modern world, using modern symbols. Not concepts as you do, but symbols. It would go further even than the way you bring emotion into the picture when you interpet hexagram meanings.
My idea too. I was wondering if 'running for the stairs' perhaps also refers to going to a 'higher' or 'deeper' state (but there is no running involved). And it fits with the text of the hexagram that says that the king goes to the (ancestral) temple.dobro said:But there's something else too: there's a kind of control which permeates things when you access a higher mind (and I think that the 9/11 people you described were accessing a higher state, triggered by their imminent mortality) which requires you to do nothing - you're only the witness. This witnessing, I think, is part of 59.2 insofar as Hex 20 comes into play. If what I'm talking about is part of 59.2, then there's no hurrying or running or fleeing required - let it go and let it disperse - cuz all you have to do is open your eyes and your 'new' support is evident.
The universals come out of the order that emerges when we contain noise.bruce_g said:(But don't tell Chris, cuz he thinks he invented archetypes!)
But, Chris, this is what we ALL do, dude! Granted, your mapping is more complex, perhaps even more unique and complete in this regard, but the premise is the same.lightofreason said:The universals come out of the order that emerges when we contain noise.
If you read through the end section of:
you will see the emergence of the trigram categories where such categories reflect compression of data.
Consider reality as what we see in telescopes. Then reduce the resolution to that of binoculars, and then reduce THAT to the resolution of naked-eye. The trigrams are like the constellations we see and a such reflect invarient qualities spanning all levels - and in IDM that is basic blending, bonding, bounding, and binding - all else follows (and so layers and layers of archetypes, specialised into sensory forms etc)
For the emergence of order from the containment of noise, Google the 'chaos game'.
THen comes containers in containers etc and so more and more specialisations all rooted in self-referencing. (and so the IC being a container is rooted in self-referencing and so can serve as a language to describe all other container - in general ;-))
Not sure what definition sources you're using here, Martin. They aren't Jungian. Not that Jung is the end-all, but he has set a standard of terms in this area.martin said:There are concepts, there are symbols and there are archetypes. All different.
you are suffering delusion - your beliefs are past their use-by/best-before date; your consciousness is not as 'vast' as you think - there is a lot going on outside of your awareness and that is the issue with divination/synchronicity perspectives in that they are not aware of the big neurological 'field' in which consciousness operates.bruce_g said:Your specific method works well for you, and you require a more detailed analysis to make up for what you lose in rejecting the always perfect fit-ness of a reading, which only divination/synchronicity can provide. But, whatever makes you feel better.
lightofreason said:At the Species I Ching level of meaning, 59 represents a context of contractive bounding within which is operating contractive binding.
as the wind become influencial it is working in a context of protection, of sharp differentiation of 'this from that', 'fact from fiction', 'us from them' - from this comes the notion of dispersion of clouds, lifting of fog, and the dispelling of illusions. etc etc etc
Well, I didn't define these terms. But when I say that archetypes and symbols are different I use the word 'symbol' in the sense of a concrete image. An archetype is different, more abstract and not or less conscious. Jung in 'Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious':bruce_g said:Not sure what definition sources you're using here, Martin. They aren't Jungian. Not that Jung is the end-all, but he has set a standard of terms in this area.
The bottom trigram sets a context of a boundary. WITHIN that boundary is operating 'contractive binding' which relates to dynamic relationships and so focus on time. It is the dynamic focus that brings us the focus on increase in influence (wind in top) as compared to a focus on cultivation (wind in bottom).rinda said:Last time I was flying, I spent some time wondering about how the clouds stayed differentiated from the sky- there is a sharp differentiation even when the wind buffets the plane, and the clouds around it. There must be some force that holds the water molecules together, berhaps ionization? So If the context is sharp differentiation, how then does that relate to dispersion?
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