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lightofreason

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martin said:
'Archetypes, so far as we can observe and explain them at all, manifest themselves only through their ability to organize images and ideas, and this is always an unconscious process which cannot be detected until afterwards.'
What he is trying to get at is a property of negative feedback with a focus on 'getting closer to', This area fuels the realm of irrational numbers through their creation of mathematical ssequences/series. The moment you 'get' the point there is a 'jump' to positive feedback in the form of expresssion - and so spiral development a la fibonacci etc is the manifestion of a ratio derived from negative feedback - Phi.

Implicit in this is that all numbers are not 'things' but representing relationships, ratios. Positive feedback sets a context of the number/constant and assert XOR-ness and so the appearence of the discrete - but as we know from the XOR material, it is all connected 'behind' the expressions. (this gets us into the spectrum of meanings, high energy sample rates elicit the discrete etc and that moves us into sequencing vs magnitudes)

Chris.
 
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bruce_g

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martin said:
Well, I didn't define these terms. :) But when I say that archetypes and symbols are different I use the word 'symbol' in the sense of a concrete image. An archetype is different, more abstract and not or less conscious. Jung in 'Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious':
'Archetypes, so far as we can observe and explain them at all, manifest themselves only through their ability to organize images and ideas, and this is always an unconscious process which cannot be detected until afterwards.'
Think I understand better what you mean. I've read different definitions for the word "archetypes". Some have limited the meaning to human forms, for example, while I've found no such limitation given by Jung in his writing.

“Here I must clarify the relation between instincts and archetypes: What we properly call instincts are physiological urges, and are perceived by the senses. But at the same time, they also manifest themselves in fantasies and often reveal their presence only by symbolic images. These manifestations are what I call archetypes.” ~ Man and his Symbols

By this definition, archetypes need not me limited to any category of images, so long as they arise from an unknown or unknowable origin.

Do you think a modern oracle can function without the use of these archetypes?
 

martin

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bruce_g said:
I've read different definitions for the word "archetypes"
Yes, it's confusing. Archetypal images (such as those on Tarot cards) are sometimes called "archetypes", for instance, but they are not according to the Jungean definition.
These images have content and are conscious while archetypes are unconscious forms without content. We do not experience them directly but they organize our experience from behind the scenes, so to speak.
Jung sometimes used the analogy of crystalline structures. These structures are immaterial but they manifest in and shape material crystals, such as snow flakes. The archetypes, likewise, are unconscious but they manifest in and shape our conscious experience.

bruce_g said:
Do you think a modern oracle can function without the use of these archetypes?
So I guess you mean archetypal images and ideas? :)

I think an oracle that doesn't use such images/ideas will be rather shallow and sterile. The answers are easier to interpret perhaps but they don't speak to our deeper layers.
And there is something else. Jung believed that archetypes play an essential role in sychronicity. Synchronistic events have one or more archetypes in common, they are linked through these archetypes.
An oracle that doesn't use archetypal images will be further removed from the archetypes (although they still operate, they always do). Does that imply that the "link" between the answers of the oracle and our questions will be less secure? In other words, will the answers tend to be more random in that case?
I don't know, I'm just speculating, but perhaps Chris' IC+ indeed rarely gives a best fit when consulted with random methods.
Because he has removed too much archetypal imagery .. :)
 
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lightofreason

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martin said:
but perhaps Chris' IC+ indeed rarely gives a best fit when consulted with random methods.
Because he has removed too much archetypal imagery .. :)
No - the data is still there it is just that you cannot use random methods since the IC+ material comes with a history - the XOR elements that flesh-out the hexagram but in doing so it becomes more obvious that the hexagram does NOT fit the question.

WIth IC+ the full spectrum covers details of context and it becomes obvious that the randomly generated hexagram is more often NOT the 'best fit'.

If you focus on a belief in magical/synchronicity rules then when the hexagram appears so its aspects should also fit the context - but this has not been investigated before -when they dont then it brings into question the value of the methodology.

In the emotional IC material we recognise that the categories of emotion are derived from self-referencing, as is the dynamics of the environment and so situation. Thus the questions applied to the Emotional IC will elicit (a) a consistant best fit and (b) validation of such that the context fitting-in with all of the aspects, the XOR properties etc. will elicit 'resonance' and so meaning. Random/miraculous methods will not do that consistantly.

The 'archetypes' are the 'getting close to' aspects of negative feedback - and this IS all 'unconscious'. Then comes the LABELS that we consider 'archetypes' where to label something does not mean the use of letters, it also means the use of images etc and so on into signs etc. This gets into the issues of communicating with the unconscous through projections (as we do in the Emotional IC)

We are dealing with layers of meaning that are woven into a meaning presented as a 'whole'.

The self-referencjng of yin/yang initially gives you categories sourced in magnitudes - emotions etc. These can work without history (a snarl or snear or yelp og joy etc covers immediate expressions) but better WITH history in that most situations considered in the IC cover historic processes and a need to understand what is going on, where things have been, where things are going.

Through XOR we can flesh-out the aspects of a hexagram and so some history associated with it. The moment we do that we negate any 'magical/random' element since these elements come with no history (THAT is what makes them magical/random)

The projection/transference focus gives us emotional history and that is fine if a little 'disturbing' when all of the different emotions packed into the one transference are analysed! ;-) - our unconscious seeds our consciousness and allows us to convert the magnitude, the wave amplitude, into serial form - frequencies, harmonics, aspects. XOR gives us access to this and in that access shows us the failings of 'random/miraculous' methods - they CAN work but not consistantly and it is consistancy that is needed.

An exanple. the 24-ness of a hexagram indicates the form of the beginning of such a hexagram. Thus apply XOR to a situation described by X and we have the 24-ness of X. Given the expression of X, so we have a history in being able to identifiy the 24-ness moment in the past. IF you cannot then there is the indication that the derived hexagram is NOT the 'right' fit.

The focus on development means a focus on beginning/ending. If you are in the middle, the 'mature' position associated with getting a hexagram through coin toss etc then XOR will indicate the begin/end natures; no such natures in reality and then the hexagram derived is not the best fit.

The main emphasis of belief is to not ask questions - not seek what is 'behind' things - to keep a chid mind, absolute, immediate, andso be open to the 'magical' - used car salespersons and charasmatics types LOVE this! - very profitable! (look at the assets of the formal churches etc)

Time to grow up I think ;-)

Chris.
 
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lightofreason

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When working with probabilities, working with complexity/chaos dynamics, we allow for the 'snow in the sahara' situations in weather forcasting as we do for 'best fits' coming out of 'nowhere', BUT the system overall will stabilise and operate within 'normal' parameters. Coin tossing etc is akin to trying to get 'snow in the sahara' consistantly - a miracle/random event. All events as far as WE know in the context of social dynamics have histories and so excluding that from any consideration of a situation is 'silly' - IMHO ;-)

Chris.
 
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lightofreason

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Just to cover 'beginnings' etc from an emotional context - if you feel an intense emotion NOW, especially if it seems to 'come out of nowhere' then either (a) you are experiencing a transference with no history attached or (b) you are at the beginning of 'something' where the emotion has no history YET but as the context develops so a history will develop. Given this, how can you predict where things are going? What is the dominating hexagram to which this emotion is a 'beginning'? 24-ness is the answer.

Find a hexgram that fits the emotion and interpret it as expressing 24-ness. Identify that 24-ness, which hexagram it belongs to, and you have the main hexagram of concern.

For example, if anger is dominating your consciousness then it represents hexagram 01 and so 01 is the 24-ness of what? 44. ANY expression of anger with no history attached suggests an overall focus on persuading others in some way.

Given this, we have grounded the anger in 44 amd then look around for local context to indicate who, or what, we are trying to persuade. Now we have a direction and so can manage the anger a bit better; focus a bit better, rather than wandering around in a 'rage' etc for 'no apparent reason'.

Try another, say 'joy', sexual love, hex 58. If it is the beginning of something then what is the overall controlling focus? 58 as 24-ness is linked to hex 09. Sexual activity, any sort of copying, replication etc serves as a beginning to making small gains and building it all up to become noticed.

The majority of IC enquiries are about history - the past or possible history from the future. Just as 58 can represent pure lust and no more, no history other than the moment, so from a historical perspective it has an intent, it leads to something, and the XOR work brings all of that out in general - LOCAL context will then add nuances, local colourings.

The XOR work lets our unconsciousness talk to us and us to it.

Chris.
 
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bruce_g

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Hi Martin,

I’m now confused entirely about the word “archetypes”. I’ve been rummaging through several sources (dictionaries, Wikipedia, Jung, Campbell, etc), and find wide variances of meaning for the word, and even the origin of the word. Your own definition given here is equally confusing.

So, until I can sort though these different definitions and arrive at something more solid, I’ll withhold using the word. What I was getting at in regard to Dobro’s comment on constructing a new Yi-like oracle based solely on contemporary images was that, without the use of universal or timeless images, an oracle couldn’t be effectively constructed. And, even if exclusively contemporary images were to be used, their root value would still reach into the same general and universal qualities of the image.
 

martin

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lightofreason said:
The main emphasis of belief is to not ask questions - not seek what is 'behind' things - to keep a chid mind, absolute, immediate, andso be open to the 'magical' - used car salespersons and charasmatics types LOVE this! - very profitable! (look at the assets of the formal churches etc)

Time to grow up I think ;-)
Neither grownups nor children live in a tiny box and look at the world through a little hole in the wall, like you do all the time.
So you are not a child but you are also not a grownup. What are you then, a 650 years old grumpy alien? :)
 

Sparhawk

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martin said:
So you are not a child but you are also not a grownup. What are you then, a 650 years old grumpy alien? :)
I've seen a picture of Chris and he looks quite human. Of course, it could be a disguise since I know they (the Andromedeans) walk among us... We are on to you, Chris... :rofl:

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sparhawk said:
I've seen a picture of Chris and he looks quite human.
Something like this?



Hallowed are the Ori!


 
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Sparhawk

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Another Stargate SGI fan?? :D Well, not quite an Ori, they have a religion and we know that goes against Chris' beliefs... :D
 

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Another Stargate SGI fan?? :D
Oh yes, I've seen all episodes. :cool:

Well, not quite an Ori, they have a religion and we know that goes against Chris' beliefs... :D
I don't know - Chris' belief in Science is almost religious. And he sure behaves like a missionary, just like the Priors of the Ori.
 

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Last time this subject came up, I think we had the poor man down as a Romulan trying to pass as Vulcan. Either way, I'm sure he has just the eyebrows for it.
 

Sparhawk

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ewald said:
Oh yes, I've seen all episodes. :cool:

And he sure behaves like a missionary, just like the Priors of the Ori.
Me too on the SG1! We have no life man... :D

As for Chris, you may be right, I can picture him with a glowing-orb tipped staff and a hood...

Hallowed be the Ori! :rofl:
 

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I think one of these days Chris is going to have the mother of all conversion experiences. An angel will visit him and Chris will point out this isn't possible there are no such things, but the angel won't go away and in the morning - behold its a Chris we've never known the like of before, we might miss the old one though :D ?
 
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lightofreason

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trojan said:
I think one of these days Chris is going to have the mother of all conversion experiences. An angel will visit him and Chris will point out this isn't possible there are no such things, but the angel won't go away and in the morning - behold its a Chris we've never known the like of before, we might miss the old one though :D ?
ya wanna get into angels? ...

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/angels.html

ya wanna get into being posessed? See the thread on this list covering Projection and Transference - if you do not know what is going on this stuff can cause REAL issues with one's psyche - VERY easy to experience an 'alien' emotion with emotional history in the form of resonance - IOW once 'in' you the emotion can resonate to outside stimulus not associated with you but with the emotion's originator. Freaky but easily explained and delt with. (although can be hard to remove/neutralise if you cannot get access to the original history from the original 'projector')

I would also suggest a search of Google on OBEs (Out of Body Experiences) where these are linked to brain thunderstorms etc .... as is spontanious conversion (strongly associated with temporal lobe thunderstorms)

There is a whole weather system 'in here' ;-)

BTW - A Vulcan 'mind meld' is possible in principle given the data on emotions, projection, and transference - but it would require the eyes to be open since they are a major source of transference.

Our emotions are the only system that allows us to share the same space - through resonance. This is rooted in our social, species-level, behaviours - something consciousness has been a touch naive about.

Chris.
 

Sparhawk

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lightofreason said:
BTW - A Vulcan 'mind meld' is possible in principle given the data on emotions, projection, and transference - but it would require the eyes to be open since they are a major source of transference.

I rest my case! :D

L
 

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Hello All from Shanghai,

I followed the discussion on #59 with interest.
I usually substitute 機 for 机, since they're interchangable. The former sense is significant in this context of dispersion. The word 機 to me is about the workings of things, the pivotal juncture, the inherent mechanism, the organic potential. (It is used in this sense in ZHUANGZI.) I think this sense fits well with #59.2's central position. A time of dispersion is a time of chaotic flux, and the ji1 is a node which resolves out of that and has strong influence on the outcome. To me, rushing toward the ji1 in dispersion means we run into the thick of an unravelling situation, where we will be part of creating the outcome.
59.2 is a good example of the Yi's density of thought. It is about an attractor or node of maximum influence in a chaotic field. Bruce was thinking in terms of 'support,' but he hit on this when he said: "Support is where you find it. When it's time to leave a support because it is no longer supporting you or your life, you dissolve and evolve to another support system. Opportunity presents itself by way of introspection of priorities and believability."

I think it's possible that the word huan4 渙 may be personified---the Dispersed One. The nearby word Lv3 (Traveller) in #56 is definitely personified, and huan4 is in a grammatically similar position. The hexagram name in #36 is also personified, but the hex names in 48, 50, and 51, also used at beginnings of lines, are not.

I've been busy here but took time to stop in Shanghai Guji Publishing House, where I bought two books by Pan Yuting. Pan Yuting was an Yi scholar whose work was supported by the Chinese government as national heritage project during the Eighties.
I bought two books by Pan: one about the similarity of the Yi with Buddhist Huayan philosophy, and one containing Pan's summaries of rare books in the Yi field. A week ago I had dinner with Pan Yuting's nephew, who is a professor at the College of Chinese Medicine.

Regards and I hope to send you a little more news from Shanghai.

Denis M
 

bradford

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Gotta confess I'm a big SG1 fan too.
Am much in love with Samantha Carter (oh those Zhuang Nu)
That was seriously compromised though when Firefly's Inara joined the cast.
Almost went over to the dark side.
Morena Baccarin would make such a good Goddess of Goodness!
 

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bradford said:
That was seriously compromised though when Firefly's Inara joined the cast.
Do you mean Vala (Claudia Black)?
I love that character, but she doesn't quite seem to fit as a SG1 member, in season 10. I thought she was magnificent while she was just a guest star earlier, with all this rebelliousness and flirting.
 

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ewald said:
Do you mean Vala? I love that character, but she doesn't quite seem to fit as a SG1 member, in season 10. I thought she was magnificent while she was just a guest star earlier, with all this rebelliousness and flirting.
No. Vala's daughter, the evil half-human vessel of Origin, or half of whatever race Vala is.
Mom's a smokin hot zhuang nu too though. Loved her in Farscape.
I guess we're still on the subject of dissipation?
 

hilary

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brad said:
"I guess we're still on the subject of dissipation?"
:rofl:

Um, Denis. Hello from muddy Oxfordshire :) .
denis said:
"...rushing toward the ji1 in dispersion means we run into the thick of an unravelling situation, where we will be part of creating the outcome."
So at red alert, head to the bridge? (Die-hard trekkie here, sorry.)

I understand what a sojourner is, I could make a guess at the nature of a brightness-injured person, but what's a 'Dispersed One'?
 

denis_m

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hilary said:
:rofl:

I understand what a sojourner is, I could make a guess at the nature of a brightness-injured person, but what's a 'Dispersed One'?
Maybe the "Dispersed One" is compelled to deal with with turbulence (like the crew on the bridge of the Enterprise).

Huan4 often means we are split apart from familiar ties. It also used to mean 'distraught' or psychically jangled, in a diagnostic sense. During the Wei-Jin period, one of the Seven Sages of the Bamboo Grove called Xi Kang wrote an essay on drug-taking called "On Caring for Life." He warned about elixirs that will leave you feeling "confused(huan4) and unintegrated, like a bundle of raw nerves."

In line with the development noted by Bradford above, there is a progression from the horse in 59.1--charging in with raw strength--to the sense of a focal point in 59.2. The horse charging to the rescue echoes the one in 36.2.

If the word Huan4 is personified in 59.3, then 59.3 could be "the body of the one in dispersion," i.e., the dispersion of self into the body. [what Delmore Schwarz called 'the secret life of belly and bone.']

If Huan4 is personified in 59.4, then we're pointing to a group into which the person's identity is dispersing.
59.5 has always boggled me. Maybe the first huan4 could be personified, but not the second.
I like personifying Huan in 59.6: the blood going out makes me think of sublimation, and sublimation is something a person achieves. This line makes me think of the lady painter whom Rilke mourns in his "Requiem for a Friend."

Regards,

Denis M.
 
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hilary

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That quote from Xi Kang is very interesting. I've noticed 59 used to describe personal relationships affected by alcoholism: the loss of any normal sense of 'personal space' or safe boundaries.

Which book is that Rilke poem in? I don't think I know it.
 
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lightofreason

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hilary said:
That quote from Xi Kang is very interesting. I've noticed 59 used to describe personal relationships affected by alcoholism: the loss of any normal sense of 'personal space' or safe boundaries.
the generic associations allow for such an interpretation.

The water trigram equates with the more general category of contractive bounding (boundary issues) - when we map in emotions we cover issues of containment (water in lower) and control (water in upper) in the form of rejecting or being rejected and a core focus on protection (and so safety)

The wind trigram equates with the more general category of contractive binding (sharing time issues) - when we map in emotions we cover issues of anticipation of wrong doing as well as anticipation of right doing. This gets into the rising of an influence as we have the rising of fog or a wind ( and so the overall focus of these perspectives in hexagrams with wind in upper or lower)

Chris.
 
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bruce_g

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Hi Denis,

Personification of 59 seems logical.

denis_m said:
If the word Huan4 is personified in 59.3, then 59.3 could be "the body of the one in dispersion," i.e., the dispersion of self into the body. [what Delmore Schwarz called 'the secret life of belly and bone.']
"Belly and bone", I love that. There's a point where thinking no longer provides enough substance to complete a transition. It's said that the longest distance is from the head to the heart, but I think to the belly and bone is more correct. Ideas must become tangible in ones own body wisdom. I could not experience this until later in life. Before this everything was in the realm of ideas, and ideas have no actual form. When an idea manifests physically in ones belly and bones, the idea is no longer needed.

denis_m said:
59.5 has always boggled me. Maybe the first huan4 could be personified, but not the second.
I like personifying Huan in 59.6: the blood going out makes me think of sublimation, and sublimation is something a person achieves. This line makes me think of the lady painter whom Rilke mourns in his "Requiem for a Friend."
The lines of 59 remind me of Christ's crucifixion. Line 5 as when he cried out "Father, why hast thou forsaken me!". It's the last plea to retain bodily form. It seems so unjust to have to make this impossible choice. After a lifetime of gaining body wisdom, now it too must be given up to heaven. 59.6, he gives up the ghost and ascends as a mist to heaven.
 
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dobro p

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Chris

lightofreason said:
The traditional IC was put together in an ad hoc manner, difference people added bits as time went on, and the bits added were references to local context as sources of analogy/metaphor for what they were feeling, experiencing. IOW lots of labels to try and communicate 'yin/yang-ness' (where yin/yang are labels themselves)
I don't believe that you *know* that the IC was put together in an ad hoc manner; I believe it's your opinion. Also, when you say 'put together in an ad hoc manner; different people added bits as time went on', you make it sound so haphazard and so...such a product of ordinary minds. But you're sidestepping the point I was making, which was that the Yi was produced not by people of ordinary mind, but by people of higher mind. The fact that the Yi people saw patterns with such clarity and utility says to me that their minds and their being were organized at a higher level of integration, with a greater degree of unity, than the likes of you and me. And anything produced by a higher mind is permeated with that unity to the point of it not being 'local'.

I can understand your avoiding this idea though, because the corollary of it applies to you and to me. You know, I've worked out a version of the Yi and so have you, but if you and I are not like the guys who put together the Yi (if you and I have not yet attained the higher mind I'm talking about) then our Yis are not worth very much compared to the traditional Yi. It's the level of being of the person who produces it which determines the value, utility and universality of something.
 
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lightofreason

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dobro said:
Chris
I don't believe that you *know* that the IC was put together in an ad hoc manner; I believe it's your opinion. {/quote]

No. Any archeological/sociological focus on ancient China from 2000BC to 1000AD will show you the ad hoc nature in creation of the formal IC from more 'primitive' perspectives. The Imperial edition of 1700s was an attempt to filter out all of the accmulated ad-hocary over the centuries to give the formal dogma.

This is basic mind dynamics at work where we have the template for meaning and we fill in the dots ;-) In so doing we come across perceptual anomolies and so go through periods of revision etc etc where we update material given new facts.

Now we are in a position to identify the template and associated methodology used for all meaning derivation and so take the traditional IC into the 21st century AD ;-)

dobro said:
Also, when you say 'put together in an ad hoc manner; different people added bits as time went on', you make it sound so haphazard and so...such a product of ordinary minds.
That is the simplicity of it - it can suite 'ordinary minds'. ANY mind can derive the meanings of the IC given time and a focus. Every person on this planet could create their own I Ching by self-referencing of yin/yang for symbolisms and derivation of decision strategies where those strategies will elicit emotional content. The LOCAL form of that content will be specialist but BENEATH that will be the template identified by the IDM/IC+ material and so all of the ICs producted will show isomorphism all due to the methodology in production - self-referencing.

dobro said:
But you're sidestepping the point I was making, which was that the Yi was produced not by people of ordinary mind, but by people of higher mind.
That is your opinion. My work shows that that is not necessary - and the formal imperial edition reflected attempts by the courts to bring out a 'high minded' format but there is no reason for some local peasant to come up with his/her personal form of IC that would contain the same general qualities as the imperial edition.

dobro said:
The fact that the Yi people saw patterns with such clarity and utility says to me that their minds and their being were organized at a higher level of integration, with a greater degree of unity, than the likes of you and me. And anything produced by a higher mind is permeated with that unity to the point of it not being 'local'.
I think you say this because you need this perspective to fit your opinion of your self - you are downplaying your capabilities. Stop it. ;-) Write your own IC based on the Species qualities identified in IDM/IC+ and you will see emerge your personal perspectives mapped to the IC in general due to the underlying sameness in the neurology that determines the method of thinking etc.

Chris.
 

heylise

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I don't think the Yi was created ad hoc. There has probably been added a lot ad hoc, and that is still happening all the time. I do it, Chris does it, we all do, we all add our own understanding. The imperial edition was, to find a common base back.

LiSe
 

Sparhawk

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heylise said:
I don't think the Yi was created ad hoc. There has probably been added a lot ad hoc, and that is still happening all the time. I do it, Chris does it, we all do, we all add our own understanding. The imperial edition was, to find a common base back.

LiSe
Ah! Some of the wisest words I've read in a long time (not that I'm wise to recognize them but they resonate with me, nevertheless). I think there was a beginning, of course, but the Yi is still a mutating philosophical work. Not on its own but with the help of the "observers" in the same sense that the observer, by the mere act of observing, is influencing the outcome of the observation.

Sometimes I think of the Yi as a lacquer box that is continuously being painted, over and over again, with the shellac of every question posed to it, every interpretation and commentary. The box is disproportionately thicker with glossy lacquer than the actual wood that supports it, to the point that it cannot be opened and the real essence, the spirit of the Yi inside the box, is to all denied. We feel and intuit what's inside the box but do not really know it. The lacquer is transparent to a point; we can see the content of many layers down and under the surface until they become too dark to discern. As it is, we are still too far away from what's contained in it.

L
 

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