Best Way to Fight Coronavirus: 13UC

[Liselle]

Do you? Why so?

Because what you talked about was people seeing their friends once in a while, which is much narrower than "overcoming coronavirus" - schools re-opening, everyone going back to work, life/business/the economy resuming more-or-less as usual.

But maybe you were just giving an example and I took you too literally.

She came to the same conclusion I did in her first post when she wrote:

Taking physical distance from crowds.

Yes, but what's a crowd? I've seen that defined as 100, and also as 10, and most authorities I've seen are defining density as keeping 6 feet between each person.

 

[Liselle]

Plus I remember seeing that the virus can survive on some surfaces for up to 9 days. That's hard to deal with. It's impossible to sanitize every surface every single time someone breathes on it. (Which might not be the right way to think about it, I don't know. It's hard to form a thought without finding ways it morphs or something.)

 

[moss elk]

Yes, but what's a crowd?

Finally! an easy question.
Three, of course.

 

[share3]

It's interesting that the Image has both "People in Harmony" and "...sorts the clans and differentiates between beings." There are elements of both togetherness and separation.

And this part: "People in harmony in the wilds...Fruitful to cross the great river" makes me think of common people, not governments, overcoming our political differences to align along our common interests.

I saw a YouTube video that gave me an openhearted way to look at this. Basically, the government's not handling the coronavirus well, so it's up to people to take responsibility, and don't scapegoat each other.

Is it all right to link to YouTube here? (If not, this is Beau of the Fifth Column, March 13, 2020: "Let's talk about cleaning up the mess together")

 

[Liselle]

Is it all right to link to YouTube here?

Yes, people do it all the time. You used the "Insert Media" button in the edit box toolbar, right? (The three dots.)

 

[share3]

Yes, people do it all the time. You used the "Insert Media" button in the edit box toolbar, right? (The three dots.)

Uh not at first, but I tried the three dots and got the same result. Thank you.

 

[Liselle]

not at first

Haha I've never tried it without the three dots. Good to know, thanks!

 

[Olga Super Star]

Unfortunately the herd immune system cannot work as the virus spreads around too quickly and around 50% of hitten people require hospitalization, and around 20% of them require intensive care otherwise they will die. 8% will die anyway. Not only over 70s. In their 40s and 30s as well. Healthy people as well.

In both Italy and China hospitals have been (are being) promptly set up in commercial buildings.
and this while containing people in their own houses. If everyone kept doing their own life, the people needing hospitalization would be millions, not thousand!! Which means that millions would die as you may be able to build enough hospitals for million people but you don’t certainly have a million doctors nor can you train them in two weeks.

Plus people have got the virus more than once.

So the point is herd immunity doesn’t work with corona virus. The only way to make it dissolve is CLOSING all down (everywhere in the world) for 20 days.
They should close the stock exchange and pretend we all go on holidays for 20 days.

 

[Liselle]

Thanks for that information, Olga.

Plus people have got the virus more than once.

I didn't think viruses worked that way. Once you recover from you're supposed to be immune, I thought. That is not good news.

 

[Olga Super Star]

A Chinese friend is saying the Chinese press believe thousands of bodies a day were being burnt in Wuhan when the virus first broke out but the Chinese government is hiding it to avoid panic.

that would explain why so many more people are dying in Italy compared to China.

If you want my advice, buy enough food and lock yourself up for a few weeks. It doesn’t look good.

 

[diamanda]

Olga is spot on.

There are already two well documented mutations of the virus and scientists believe there are more - they just haven't been mapped yet, because the virus mutates a lot and fast, plus there's no proven immunity so far, even after infection. Patients have been found to get re-infected with the same mutation, or infected with a different mutation after the first one, or some cases were found to have been infected with both mutations at the same time. Conclusion: there's no immunity, it's a political myth.

Plus, it's now proven that the virus can not only survive for days on surfaces, but it can also survive in the air we breathe for at least 3-4 hours. All this stuff about keep 1-2 metres away is a bit nonsensical, that's why crowds are a total no-no. People can have the virus and transmit it even before they develop symptoms, i.e. before they cough. So, yes, they 'shed' and pass it on just by breathing. In these circumstances, a 'crowd' is yourself plus 1 or more other people. That's also why people in Asia wear masks - because masks do work. If you don't have a mask, which most probably you won't as they're sold out, you can wrap a scarf around your mouth hand nose.

A Chinese friend is saying the Chinese press believe thousands of bodies a day were being burnt in Wuhan when the virus first broke out but the Chinese government is hiding it to avoid panic.
that would explain why so many more people are dying in Italy compared to China.

Omg Olga.... that makes so much sense.

 

[Wild Goose]

I was actually supposed to quote you Liselle, that post brought up the question underlying a lot of the thread I think, 13uc likely points to a common effort, it's just is it also pointing to one of the two ways that common effort could manifest?

Has anyone cast for different countries based on their strategies?



I asked the Outcome of using:

Herd Immunity to fight Coronavirus: 37.5>22 (The king enters his own home)

Containment to fight Coronavirus: 2uc (A noble one, with generous character, carries all the beings)



In terms of the loss of human lives and livelihoods how Effective is:

Herd immunity at fighting the Coronavirus: 23 (heights are generous, and there are tranquil homes below)

Containment at fighting the Coronavirus: 53.5>52 (In the end, nothing can prevent it. Good fortune.)


In terms of the loss of lives and livelihoods how Successful is:

Herd immunity at fighting the Coronavirus: 39 (A noble one turns himself around to renew his character)

Containment at fighting the Coronavirus: 38.1 (Lost horse: don't pursue it, it returns of itself.)

My guess is 13uc is a common effort through social isolation:

Just looking at the symbolism of a hexagram with no change lines. If change lines are what connect one hexagram to another then 13. Fellowship with People in The Open without change lines is the perfect symbol for no connection between people = Social Isolation!

Also that containment will be the approach of every country in the end (53.5&39), while people won't enjoy it they'll understand that it's the best option (38.1) HI will lead to deaths and people being sacked (23&37.5), this may go on for awhile, maybe even three years (53.5).

I'm being very literal - these are just my hunches at a glance. It seems to support 13 as fellowship through segregation though.

"The government can´t literally bail out the whole U.S. economy, though...comment?"

43.2 to 49
'Alarmed, calling out.
Evening and night, bearing arms
Do not fear.'

Don't know what that means exactly, but there are worse things Yi could've said I guess.

I think I got this one before, I could be wrong it could be the army one - I'm sure it was this one though, I took it to mean that so long as you pay attention it's fine, like being on night watch, or the bible verses that talk about being alert , attentive and prepared least your lamps go out or the 'thief comes in the night', so maybe if they make sure to keep an eye on any signs of depression/recession they'll manage it??

 

[Liselle]

Here's the video I watched that explained herd immunity (which Olga and Diamanda say wouldn't work anyway). I'd never heard of TLDR News before, and can't personally vouch for it - anyone?

Herd Immunity to fight Coronavirus: 37.5>22 (The king enters his own home)

37.5 is an interesting and controversial line. Here's some of what Hilary put in WikiWing based on her investigations:

The king enters his own home.
Do not worry. Good fortune.

Or more literally:
'The king takes it on: there is a home.
Do not be concerned! Good fortune.'

[...]

The king retains his autonomy. He can choose to be part of a relationship - or he can choose not to be.

Plenty of experiences with the line are from women finding he chooses not to be, or not with her. A common theme: someone taking charge of his/her life.

'Do not worry' also translates as 'Do not sympathise!' or even 'Do not have compassion!'
Why not?
Maybe because the centre of 'home', of secure, harmonious relationships that work, is this rulership, autonomy. That must come first: if you displace it by putting worry about someone else at the centre, everything falls apart.
(Compare 'the king jia it. Do not mourn!' in Hexagram 55.)

That seems to support what the video said about this being a political nightmare. World leaders would have to tell their countries x number of you will have to die for this to work, and I can't care about that.

 

[Liselle]

Plus, it's now proven that the virus can not only survive for days on surfaces, but it can also survive in the air we breathe for at least 3-4 hours.

Notice how 13 has fellowship outdoors
instead of gathering indoors, like with people in the home.

I said to M.E. earlier that I thought he was speaking too narrowly, and in the way I meant it, it's still true, but trying to conduct as much business as possible outdoors might be a really good idea (apologies, Moss Elk).

After all:

• we feel more comfortable with grocery pickup because - at least at the store where I've done that, Walmart - it's done outdoors.
• the new protocol at my cats' vet is you drive into a fenced-off area, phone them, they come to your car to get your pet, talk to you on the phone during the exam, and bring your pet back to your car. Same if you're picking up prescriptions. You never go inside.

 

[Liselle]

I asked about the best way to overcome coronavirus and got 13 uc

“We’re being asked to think so much more socially than we’re ever, ever asked to think,” says Steven Benko, a professor of religious and ethical studies at Meredith College in Raleigh, North Carolina. ("How You Should Get Food During the Pandemic," fromThe Atlantic, a reputable publication. Published on March 14th.)

Points the article makes include that if you use an independent food delivery service, maybe don't, since you're requiring gig workers to go into stores to shop for you. (I assume - hopefully - that this is different from programs run by stores themselves with their own employees.)

 

[Liselle]

Sorry for the deluge of posts. But this article addresses a question I've had, what about the containers groceries come in? The author asked some experts a bunch of paranoid questions. Conclusion seems to be: wash your hands after handling cans or boxes of food - wipe the countertops where they sat - but there's no identified need to be obsessive. The biggest concern is respiratory transmission, not objects.

"How to Grocery Shop Safely During a Pandemic: Can you get COVID-19 off a cereal box? Do veggies need to be bleached? Experts weigh in with current best practices." (from Slate.com, published March 18th)

 

[marybluesky]

Interesting to see so much replies on this thread.

I asked the Outcome of using:

Herd Immunity to fight Coronavirus: 37.5>22 (The king enters his own home)

Containment to fight Coronavirus: 2uc (A noble one, with generous character, carries all the beings)

37.5 also says: don't worry. I take it as the herd immunity will work at some point in the "clan".
As for containment, we need time, constancy & the help of others to learn how to deal with it:

"At first, confusion. Later, gains a master.
Fruitful in the southwest, gaining partners.
In the northeast, losing partners.
Peaceful constancy brings good fortune."

In terms of the loss of human lives and livelihoods how Effective is

:
Herd immunity at fighting the Coronavirus: 23 (heights are generous, and there are tranquil homes below)

Containment at fighting the Coronavirus: 53.5>52 (In the end, nothing can prevent it. Good fortune.)

The herd immunity method leads to the loss of many lives, while the containment will save many after a while.

In terms of the loss of lives and livelihoods how Successful is:

Herd immunity at fighting the Coronavirus:

39 (A noble one turns himself around to renew his character)

Containment at fighting the Coronavirus: 38.1 (Lost horse: don't pursue it, it returns of itself.)

The herd immunity method has too much problems to be counted on for saving lives. In the containment, some lives are lost and there is aversion at first, but it will be compensated later.

All in all the containment seems to be much more effective.

P.S: I like your method to add the readings' links to the post, as it gives us access to its text.

 

[Lavalamp]

Man. Ask a simple question and so many opinions and rumors muddying the waters. Not just here, all over.

"What is the best way to deal with the Coronavirus?"
13 Unchanging.
Wilhelm/Baynes:Fellowship with Men in the open. Success. It furthers one to cross the great water. The perseverance of the superior man furthers.
> This describes fellowship - at a distance. You're not in close quarters, this not the Army, this is not the clan or the family. These are acquaintances, and there is space between you.
Practice social distancing. The highest numbers of Coronavirus infections in New York, which has the most per capita in the world is New York City Police and Firemen, i.e. Army.

As for the multiple mutations rumor, the way that usually works is the virus doesn't want to kill off a host too soon, so it mutates into a milder form. Not into a more lethal form. There are reportedly two versions of the coronavirus, but the reason some get it and some do not is more likely because of natural immunity, some people already have antibodies.

Anyway this reading says social distancing will be a successful course of action.

- LL

 

[diamanda]

but the reason some get it and some do not is more likely because of natural immunity, some people already have antibodies

Sadly this is totally inaccurate. This is a virus which jumped over from animals to humans. That's why humans have zero natural immunity to it.

The multiple mutations is not a rumour, there are scientific studies on this already. If, as you say, it mutates into a milder form, then how do you explain Italy and Spain, where the bloodbath continues?

 

[Lavalamp]

That it jumped from animals to humans hardly explains why some people are hardly affected, and others are severely impacted. You cannot say antibody immunity is impossible, you have no way of definitively knowing that.
Exposure to other coronaviruses could account for antibodies that would give some protection against this strain.

And it is a huge leap in logic that the large death tolls in Italy it must be due to a second more deadly mutation. There are several reasons why the death toll in Italy is higher.
*Italy has a population on average around 15 years older than the median in other countries, so they have a larger vulnerable population.
* The are 321,000 Chinese citizens working in the Italian textile Industry, not counting Italians of Chinese ancestry, and many many of them vacationed for Chinese New Year in Wuhan.
* While there, while the outbreak was in full swing, the Chinese authorities allowed large open air festivals with millions of people having open air potluck meals.
* The Chinese authorities suppressed information on the outbreak, jailing Doctors trying to sound the alarm, and lying to the World Health Organization saying it was not communicable human to human.
* The Chinese authorities then allowed 5 million people in this exposed group to travel back to Italy, all over China, and all over the world.

- LL

 

[diamanda]

Hi Querent777,

It's already been scientifically proven that there are now 30 known mutations (scroll down to the update on the page I'm linking). This is normal virus behaviour, they do mutate all the time. This explains perfectly why some people are less affected (for example, look up the Ebola virus, it had some milder forms too).

 

[diamanda]

I agree with this theory. Our human genome and our immune systems will take care of it. Fellowship with others, clan, could mean “herd immunity”, immunity that comes from our common human genome that we all share.

Sorry guys, but this is just nonsense. After several centuries and people are still not immune to the influenza virus, hence we need new vaccines every year, because viruses mutate constantly. You think you got it once, you're covered? Err... not so. As about corona viruses (like SARS, MERS, and now covid-19), it's not even been 20 years. What on earth makes you think humans will be super swiftly immune to it? Duh.

Ok so onto some readings.

 

[diamanda]

Readings by Just_A_Traveller:

I asked the Outcome of using:
Herd Immunity to fight Coronavirus: 37.5 > 22
The king pillages family homes, and families are keeping appearances.
So, it sounds good, but it won't have a substantial effect to eliminate this deadly threat (22, superficial).

I asked the Outcome of using:
Containment to fight Coronavirus: 2uc
Empty. An open grave. Sounds better than the above reading, but still...

In terms of the loss of human lives and livelihoods how Effective is:
Herd immunity at fighting the Coronavirus: 23
23 means collapse. A very ominous cast.

In terms of the loss of human lives and livelihoods how Effective is:
Containment at fighting the Coronavirus: 53.5 > 52
If kept up for 3 years, then death toll will stabilise.
(I'll add here that "3 years" has come up so many times now, for so many different querents)
52 is an ill omen here, it means virus will stay.

In terms of the loss of lives and livelihoods how Successful is:
Herd immunity at fighting the Coronavirus: 39
Road is blocked. No-go. Side-effects, handicaps.

In terms of the loss of lives and livelihoods how Successful is:
Containment at fighting the Coronavirus: 38.1 > 64
If you lose your horse (= movement, vitality) don't chase it. If you don't chase it, it won't cross the stream. So stay put. Still, not a greatly positive omen. If you meet with bandits, be careful. So, an increase in violence as well, but if we're careful it won't continue long. This really doesn't sound like a super great omen either - better than "immunity" (which as I've explained is mythical), but still not great.

 

[Lavalamp]

Diamanda -
"A particularly fraught question during epidemics is whether the causative pathogen will mutate to become more dangerous. This is the wrong question. Mutation is a mundane aspect of existence for many viruses, and the novel coronavirus is no exception. The genetic material of the virus is RNA, not DNA like in humans. Unlike with human DNA, when viruses copy their genetic material, it does not proofread its work.
Because RNA viruses essentially operate without a spell-check, they often make mistakes. These "mistakes" are mutations, and viruses mutate rapidly compared to other organisms. While this might sound frightening, mistakes during replication usually produce changes that are neutral or even harmful to the newly generated virus."

Coronavirus mutations: Much ado about nothing | CNN

A recent scientific article suggested that the novel coronavirus responsible for the Covid-19 epidemic has mutated into a more "aggressive" form. Is this something we need to worry about? No, and here's why.

www.cnn.com

 

[Virupaksha]

Sorry guys, but this is just nonsense. After several centuries and people are still not immune to the influenza virus, hence we need new vaccines every year, because viruses mutate constantly. You think you got it once, you're covered? Err... not so. As about corona viruses (like SARS, MERS, and now covid-19), it's not even been 20 years. What on earth makes you think humans will be super swiftly immune to it? Duh.

Ok so onto some readings.

Have to second Querent777's response to this. Virus mutation is a given. This particular one has mutated quite a bit but a negligible amount. Enough so that a vaccine would still be viable. (at least that's what the experts say, I'm not a specialist in anything here.) Re-infections appear to have been caused by people who hadn't cleared the initial infection.

Measles, Polio, Small Pox and many others have been virtually eliminated through vaccination, and have not acquired significant enough mutations to reinfect the population. SARs (cousin of this coronavirus) completely died out on its own in the summer back in 2003. The vaccines being developed for it had to be shelved because they became obsolete. It never reappeared.

I also think there's a good chance that an effective antiviral will be found soon:

How will this coronavirus situation be like by May?
Hexagram 55.4.5>63
Based on the rules I follow, the yin line wins out. Brilliant persons come around, there is congratulation. Perhaps a research team can find an antiviral that renders the virus harmless? I say this because:

When will this coronavirus situation end?
Hexagram 26.5>
Tusks of a gelded board, ominous but harmless. Seems to tie into the antiviral outcome rather than a vaccine? A castrated boar doesn't make me think of a vaccine, rather a drug that interferes with the replication process.. Or the virus just naturally dies out somehow. But since I've also cast 25.5 for this situation maybe the virus will peak at certain point and just die out. 25.5 seems to point to an external condition causing pain to innocent people and eventually resolving itself on its own.

Granted this is all uber-optimistic. I know that the toll in life before we get to that point will be significant. We've never had to confront such an upheaval to our comforts in our lifetimes (at least not me as a millenial) but our ancestors dealt with these kinds of things all the time. I've been using Alfred Huang's I-Ching and every time I feel like complaining I remember that the CCP locked him up for decades. He did not abandon his belief in the Tao for his entire imprisonment.

 

[Olga Super Star]

Actually only small pox has been eradicated, measles and polio are still alive and kicking

 

[Virupaksha]

Actually only small pox has been eradicated, measles and polio are still alive and kicking

Yes I missed this, thanks for pointing that out

 

[becalm]

Protect yourself by staying strong in your body is what I get from it.

 

[diamanda]

SARs (cousin of this coronavirus) completely died out on its own

It didn't die out on its own at all. There was a vigorous international struggle for two years, they isolated every single case, that's how it was stopped.

 

[Surfergirl]

I see this answer as agreeing as a collective on a course of action. Right now our efforts are disjointed. I see 13 as coming together with a singular stance. (I.e uniting all clans)

I asked about the best way to overcome coronavirus and got 13 uc:

Oracle:
'People in harmony in the wilds: creating success.
Fruitful to cross the great river.
A noble one's constancy bears fruit.'

Image:
'Heaven joins with fire: People in Harmony.
A noble one sorts the clans and differentiates between beings.'

Very clear no? Taking physical distance from crowds.

I asked about the best way to overcome coronavirus and got 13 uc:

Oracle:
'People in harmony in the wilds: creating success.
Fruitful to cross the great river.
A noble one's constancy bears fruit.'

Image:
'Heaven joins with fire: People in Harmony.
A noble one sorts the clans and differentiates between beings.'

Very clear no? Taking physical distance from crowds.