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Coming to Terms With The Reality of Trump. 40.5.6 - 6

rosada

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I asked the I Ching how a person like myself who feels Trump is destroying the country can come to terms with those who feel he is doing a great job as president?
The names of the hexagrams alone seem to resonate with the question:
40. Deliverance
(from)
6. Conflict.
So the I Ching is reframing my question as if I had asked, "How can we be free of this conflict?".

40.5 If only the superior man can deliver himself, it brings good fortune. Thus he proves to the inferior man that he is in earnest.

This reminds me of Michelle Obama's "When they go low, we go high" edict. A call for all of us on both sides to be true to our higher selves and both sides stop with the lies and the name calling. Maybe a clear and honest accounting of what Trump has accomplished.

40.6 The prince shoots at a hawk on a high wall. He kills it.
Everything serves to further.

Hmm... Any ideas? I'm seeing this as saying there should be specific boundaries. Maybe the need to guard The Constitution and not let it be trespassed. Or no tolerance for foreign interference?

6. Conflict
In all his transactions the superior man carefully considers the beginning.

Maybe pointing to more emphasis on campaign promises so people know what we're voting for and representatives be held to voting the way they said they would.?

Curious to know your views!
Rosada
 
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hilary

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Looking on from outside, I'm wondering about the identity of the hawk up on the high rampart, that needs shooting.

My own first thought is that it represents Trump, and you'd better hope the Democrats nominate a good shot.
Then I can imagine a Trump supporter looking at the same line and seeing Trump as the prince and the hawk as the Deep State.

And then I remember to look at your original question: how can someone like you come to terms with someone who thinks Trump's doing a great job? What looming, dark power gets in the way of that?

A suggestion: perhaps the hawk is fear and suspicion - the source of the power of the far right. Imagine if that were shot down.

Here's an example of some princes with good aim.
 

Freedda

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I'm wondering about the identity of the hawk up on the high rampart, that needs shooting.
I was looking at different interpretations of this line, and it made me wonder - is it about the act of 'shooting at', or, the act of actually 'shooting' and hitting the target that's the subject of the line? (Sort of the difference between fishing and actually catching fish!) I'll have to ponder this a bit more.

Also, there are all kinds of cultural and personal, and even archetypal symbolism and meanings assocated with hawks: a beast that sits on high and waits to hunt (use, exploit) more vulerable animals, OR, a beautiful bird of prey that hunts vermin and thus make things better for all of us - even the vermin by controlling their population. Or?

I'm glad - in a way :duh: - that Rosada posted this query, since it's one I think about almost every day! But I do need to ponder this for a bit - perhaps for a long while - so I can see if there's another perspective, or voice here beside my own.

Best, D.
 

my_key

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Hi Rosada
"I asked the I Ching how a person like myself who feels Trump is destroying the country can come to terms with those who feel he is doing a great job as president? "

So the question is how can you come to terms with the people who have different views than you about Donald Trump. Mr Trump may cast a long shadow but to my way of looking at your question, him and the political arena he endorses are only bit part players in the Yi response to you.

You have given the reading in the title 40: 4,5 > 6 which I think is a typo and you mean 40: 5,6 > 6 as these are the lines you quote in your text.

Here's a take on what Yi may be saying to you.....
Right now, you have lost all your connection with these people and if you want to change your attitude to them you have to find it within yourself to settle your internal disputes (6). You can start by trying to see them differently and not just the sum of their political views. See beyond the projections of Trump that these people, in your mind, carry. It'll be advantageous for you to start out in this direction even if you can't quite make the whole leap at the moment as the soonest started the quickest mended (40).

It doesn't mean you have to see good in what Trump is doing to your country, or see good in that man but try to see good in the people that you feel in conflict with and this will begin your release. As you release them, this will release you. (40.5) Of course you will be assisted in this task when you see the true nature of the hawk that you need to shoot at and catch. When your arrow hits the right mark then all will start to fall into place for you (40.6).

It's important to remember that the nuclear of 40 is 63 - Already Crossing - and that you have arrived at the threshold of 40 after a period of 39 - Limping. In the response given where lines 5 and 6 are changing it's kind of saying that you are in a place where you have opportunity for a different purpose to shine through and even to make a breakthrough in how you view the situation.

...... and as always it may mean nothing like this at all for you.

Good Luck
 
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Freedda

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I'm glad - in a way :duh: - that Rosada posted this query, since it's one I think about almost every day!
Maybe as an aside; maybe as an important piece of the puzzle for me .... I was just reading an article in the NY Times this morning about Thailand building a huge dam aross the Mekong River. Since the dam has started operating, the river downstream has practically dried up, and there are almost no fish left. It points to a massive change in the environment along one of the world's most productive freshwater fisheries and farming regions.

So, why do I mention it here? Perhaps because it's an important reminder for me that my daily anger and grief is not just directed at Trump, but extends to a whole host of others - including monarchies and military dictatorships - whom are all participating in the destruction of our planet - all in the name of progress and profit.

Best, D.
 

rosada

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Thanks all for considering this question. (And thanks for catching the typo my_key!)
Although I agree that striving to see the humanity in each individual is always a good first step in creating good workable relationships, as I study 40.5 further I think I see a very different idea from what we usually try to do when there are differences. Usually we try to see the good in the other person or to look within for the problem, blah, blah, blah, but I think in this case the I Ching is coming right out and saying make a clean break from these people. This is not so difficult when it comes to choosing our personal friends but what about when the inferior person has a position of power? I think 40.6 may speak to that. To shoot down the hawk it's going to take some very focused energy - perhaps a call to vote or even get involved in the campaigns?

So now I'm reading the way to come to terms with the reality of Trump is
a) Don't support him or his cult followers in anyway, break with them completely.
b) Vote.

I also think there is something to Hilary's insight that the 40.6 Hawk could represents fear and the fact that it leads to 6. and resolving Conflict here reminds me of the expression, "Let us never negotiate out of fear, but let us never fear to negotiate."

So bottomline I think I Ching is encouraging one ought not be fearful of standing up for one's ideals.
 
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rosada

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40.5.6 - 6
Sorry about the confusion - I can't seem to figure out how to correct it.

Ha! Just now fixed it!
 

Freedda

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Hello Rosada. I've been thinking about this reading quite a bit. In order for me to get some handle on it - being one of these people like yourself - I tried making it personal but also more general, by asking: 'how can I come to terms with others whom I believe are causing or support great harm?'

What I have come up with - so far - seem more like reflections, or maybe suggested attitudes or approaches, but maybe not quite a complete answer. I also added some reflections at the end, but wanted to keep them separate, since they are related to, but not quite a part of, the reading.

For 40 - one name I think fits quite well here is 'Release From Indecision'. Looking at the trigrams, below we have water, which is perhaps a sense of being exposed, of confusion (about the unknown), or about facing danger. We're seeking some release or swift conclusion here (with Thunder above), but something is getting in the way with this Release, so our thoughts and emotions remain unresolved.

Looking just at the movement of - and changes to - the upper trigrams: here we have Thunder (40's upper) moving towards Heaven (6's upper): so perhaps this could be advice to look at the larger picture, and not just have a quick, fear-based (perhaps knee-jerk) reaction to what's going on.

With line 40.5: I often get on my high horse, and think, 'look at those stupid, scared people and how awful they're acting (or how bad they're voting)!' But looking at this line, I was reminded that I might want to ask, what fears do I have? And in what ways am I held in bondage? And how might this be similar to those lowly 'common' folk I seem to be in conflict with?

With 40.6: in the version I have it says that the duke 'takes aim at the raptor', but it doesn't say he actually hits it! For me, the message here is that we have to keep trying, and it's through our efforts that we make things happen - perhaps it's a message to not give into our fears or hopelessness, just because we didn't hit our target the first time!

I've heard Hex. 6 called 'Conflict' and 'Aruging' which might be easily attitudes to slip into, given the conflict we find ourselves in. But another name I've heard - and one I rather like - is 'Contrary Motion' which fits with the motion of the trigrams: we have the Heavens, above - with the sun, moon and stars - all traveling west; while at the same time, we have the rivers, below (the large rivers of ancient China) all traveling east.

What I'm reminded of here is that these movements are not good or bad unto themselves, but are part of the natural way of things - just like my political beliefs are not 'my fault', nor are they the result of some kind of warped, sick, traitorous thinking. So too, if others are going in a different direction than I (however stupid or dangerous I think it is), is that perhaps not their fault either?

But even with this new-found respect we might have for other's views, the oracle warns us to be wary of a 'middle path' - of a compromise that will likely not satisfy anyone. It also suggest (to me) that we need to continue to become knowledgeable about whatever issues we're concerned about (seeking the great person), and that we also need to fight this good fight in the trenches, one day at a time - and not as if we're always making a great crossing - and yes, this advice seems contrary to how great and pressing this issue is (and it also might help to keep us from feeling burnt out)!

Looking at bit more at 6, I am also reminded, that however far the heavens, sun, moon and stars travel to the west, they eventually make their way around to rising in the east - at a point where they again meet up with the rivers. So could this be suggesting that with this contrary motion there is also the possiblity of - hopefully, and maybe eventually - reconciliation?

And also, least I leave out 6's lower trigram, we still have water, the abyss, so maybe here is a reminder that our fears, these unknowns don't ever completely go away, but - and this is my add-on, they shouldn't serve as the sole basis for decision-making either.

***********************

A few random thoughs:

* A year or so ago, I was sitting in a local cafe and a group of local 'guys' was having breakfast together - and they were discussing global warming and climage change. I don't remember all what was said, but I do remember having a sense that they all were coming across as experts: they all knew exactly what the problem was and how to fix it - or they for sure knew that there was no problem!

I wanted to jump in and say: a friend of mine is about to have brain surgery, so can you tell me what is the best way for the surgeon to go about doing this?, or 'what are your thoughts about the latest research into subatomic particles like quarks and leptons?'

Which is to say, with our administration's simplification of the climate issue and it's attack on science and the media, we now have created a nation of experts, who know the 'truth' about climate change - and then vote for people with this same so-called understanding and knowledge.

** I am reminded of how powerful a force fear is, and also how much in denial we are about here in America. After all, we're supposed to be the greatest, strongest, bravest country on Earth, so how could we ever be scared of anything? But I think that many of us do live in/with fear, and it's this very same fear that drives people to seek common enemies, like 'socialist', or 'conservatives' - or 'environmentalist' or 'capitalist'; and we also seek stability - even if it means giving up rational thinking, or our government's checks and balances, or protecting people's rights - as long as we can then feel a bit more safe.

I suppose I could go on, but this seems like a good stopping point.

Best, David
 
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moss elk

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I asked the I Ching how a person like myself ...can come to terms with those who feel he is doing a great job as president?
Read this quote which has been attributed to different sources:

"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
 

Freedda

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"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
And I've heard something similar from people on the right when talking about us lefties, e.g you just can't argue with those idiot, socialist liberals! And that contrary thinking - from either side - might be what this reading is pointing to.
 

moss elk

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Yes, but the key distinction to recognize is that the racist idiots at fox 'news' are a dangerous combination of fast talking con men and sophistry artists. They don't actually argue (Latin, make clear, prove.) which requires listening, considering, debating points...etc
they fight, try to bludgeon people with misinformation, yelling, and forrowed brows, when they aren't actually trying to start a race war (which it wouldn't be anyway, it would be a racist war against society, and society would win). Whenever they are criticised, their response is to attack the critic, ad homenin attacks, which are the precursor to actual physical violence.

So, the trick is not to directly engage them
(what is the sound of one boxer trying to tango alone?) , because it empowers them don't go to the park when the 'proud boys'/drinking club is having a demonstation,
because you'll end up the loser in the encounter. That's one reason you never hear intelligent, respectable, honorable people on a show such as the racist, misogonist, bigoted, sadistic, drug addicted 'rush limbaugh'.

About line 6?
well, I hear of at least one bounty that has been placed on a certain raptors head.
 
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Freedda

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Yes, but the key distinction to recognize is that the racist idiots at fox 'news' are a dangerous combination of fast talking con men and sophistry artists.
ME, I do not disagree with anything you're saying here, and I suspect that if we met over a few beers that we could do some pretty serious trash-talking about these 'idiots'.

But I think 1) this is not what the Yi's response is saying - at least from what I can tell and 2) Rosada is already well aware of this, and is looking for something beyond our righteous trash talking about Trump, Fox News, and Co.

Also, I've seen this happen at least a few times, where the thread turms into a long tirade about people's opinions and not at all about the actual reading, and it ends up getting move (rightfully so I think) into the Open Space forum, where very few people will look at it.

I remember that you and I have had a similar back and forth in another thread, where you said you felt it was your duty (moral, spiritual, patriotic, god-given, etc.?) to trash Trump and friends. I guess what I'm asking is you re-consider that, and instead focus on the reading.

Best, D
 

moss elk

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I guess what I'm asking is you re-consider that, and instead focus on the reading.
Best, D
Hi David,
I guess I should explain.

I did focus on the reading when I advised Rosada to Liberate (40) herself from the Conflict (6)

Everything else I said was a public service,
a contribution to civilization.
I've been an idiot quite a few times,
and I'm also one of those top 3%ers on every academic assessment I've ever had.
Therefore, I feel qualified to recognize and point out idiocy.

Did I miss anything in your imploring?
And I invite you to consider if your imploring may have some qualities of this Japanese Maxim:
 

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Freedda

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Did I miss anything in your imploring?
No. If it came across as imploring, then I apologize, and know that was not my intention - only that this discussion was starting to make me wonder, 'hmm, I've seen this before and I know where it leads to' (to Open Space la-la land).

If anyone missed anything it was me: I missed the fact that you were basing what you said on your understanding of the reading - and it wasn't just your opinions offered as a public service. In that case, I have no issue with anyone's understanding of the Yi's response, as long as it is somewhat intelligent and somewhat thoughtful.

And I never thought to question your intelligence. I'd have to place myself in the lower 97% I suspect - I just barely made it out of college with my BA in environmenal studies.

Best, D
 

moss elk

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I just barely made it out of college with my BA in environmenal studies.
I left college early after getting an A- on a paper from a teacher who didn't realize that they were really very bad at explaining the assignments they gave.
(Oy, the idiocy of my perfectionism...)

Oh, and my choice of the word 'implore' was poor, should have used something like 'nudging' instead. Apologies, David.
:zen:
 
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rosada

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Maybe 40.6 could represent shooting down untruths - at least then we might have a clearer understanding of what his reality is.
 

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