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Coming to Terms With The Reality of Trump. 40.5.6 - 6

rosada

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I asked the I Ching how a person like myself who feels Trump is destroying the country can come to terms with those who feel he is doing a great job as president?
The names of the hexagrams alone seem to resonate with the question:
40. Deliverance
(from)
6. Conflict.
So the I Ching is reframing my question as if I had asked, "How can we be free of this conflict?".

40.5 If only the superior man can deliver himself, it brings good fortune. Thus he proves to the inferior man that he is in earnest.

This reminds me of Michelle Obama's "When they go low, we go high" edict. A call for all of us on both sides to be true to our higher selves and both sides stop with the lies and the name calling. Maybe a clear and honest accounting of what Trump has accomplished.

40.6 The prince shoots at a hawk on a high wall. He kills it.
Everything serves to further.

Hmm... Any ideas? I'm seeing this as saying there should be specific boundaries. Maybe the need to guard The Constitution and not let it be trespassed. Or no tolerance for foreign interference?

6. Conflict
In all his transactions the superior man carefully considers the beginning.

Maybe pointing to more emphasis on campaign promises so people know what we're voting for and representatives be held to voting the way they said they would.?

Curious to know your views!
Rosada
 
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hilary

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Looking on from outside, I'm wondering about the identity of the hawk up on the high rampart, that needs shooting.

My own first thought is that it represents Trump, and you'd better hope the Democrats nominate a good shot.
Then I can imagine a Trump supporter looking at the same line and seeing Trump as the prince and the hawk as the Deep State.

And then I remember to look at your original question: how can someone like you come to terms with someone who thinks Trump's doing a great job? What looming, dark power gets in the way of that?

A suggestion: perhaps the hawk is fear and suspicion - the source of the power of the far right. Imagine if that were shot down.

Here's an example of some princes with good aim.
 
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Freedda

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I'm wondering about the identity of the hawk up on the high rampart, that needs shooting.
I was looking at different interpretations of this line, and it made me wonder - is it about the act of 'shooting at', or, the act of actually 'shooting' and hitting the target that's the subject of the line? (Sort of the difference between fishing and actually catching fish!) I'll have to ponder this a bit more.

Also, there are all kinds of cultural and personal, and even archetypal symbolism and meanings assocated with hawks: a beast that sits on high and waits to hunt (use, exploit) more vulerable animals, OR, a beautiful bird of prey that hunts vermin and thus make things better for all of us - even the vermin by controlling their population. Or?

I'm glad - in a way :duh: - that Rosada posted this query, since it's one I think about almost every day! But I do need to ponder this for a bit - perhaps for a long while - so I can see if there's another perspective, or voice here beside my own.

Best, D.
 

my_key

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Hi Rosada
"I asked the I Ching how a person like myself who feels Trump is destroying the country can come to terms with those who feel he is doing a great job as president? "

So the question is how can you come to terms with the people who have different views than you about Donald Trump. Mr Trump may cast a long shadow but to my way of looking at your question, him and the political arena he endorses are only bit part players in the Yi response to you.

You have given the reading in the title 40: 4,5 > 6 which I think is a typo and you mean 40: 5,6 > 6 as these are the lines you quote in your text.

Here's a take on what Yi may be saying to you.....
Right now, you have lost all your connection with these people and if you want to change your attitude to them you have to find it within yourself to settle your internal disputes (6). You can start by trying to see them differently and not just the sum of their political views. See beyond the projections of Trump that these people, in your mind, carry. It'll be advantageous for you to start out in this direction even if you can't quite make the whole leap at the moment as the soonest started the quickest mended (40).

It doesn't mean you have to see good in what Trump is doing to your country, or see good in that man but try to see good in the people that you feel in conflict with and this will begin your release. As you release them, this will release you. (40.5) Of course you will be assisted in this task when you see the true nature of the hawk that you need to shoot at and catch. When your arrow hits the right mark then all will start to fall into place for you (40.6).

It's important to remember that the nuclear of 40 is 63 - Already Crossing - and that you have arrived at the threshold of 40 after a period of 39 - Limping. In the response given where lines 5 and 6 are changing it's kind of saying that you are in a place where you have opportunity for a different purpose to shine through and even to make a breakthrough in how you view the situation.

...... and as always it may mean nothing like this at all for you.

Good Luck
 
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Freedda

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I'm glad - in a way :duh: - that Rosada posted this query, since it's one I think about almost every day!
Maybe as an aside; maybe as an important piece of the puzzle for me .... I was just reading an article in the NY Times this morning about Thailand building a huge dam aross the Mekong River. Since the dam has started operating, the river downstream has practically dried up, and there are almost no fish left. It points to a massive change in the environment along one of the world's most productive freshwater fisheries and farming regions.

So, why do I mention it here? Perhaps because it's an important reminder for me that my daily anger and grief is not just directed at Trump, but extends to a whole host of others - including monarchies and military dictatorships - whom are all participating in the destruction of our planet - all in the name of progress and profit.

Best, D.
 

rosada

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Thanks all for considering this question. (And thanks for catching the typo my_key!)
Although I agree that striving to see the humanity in each individual is always a good first step in creating good workable relationships, as I study 40.5 further I think I see a very different idea from what we usually try to do when there are differences. Usually we try to see the good in the other person or to look within for the problem, blah, blah, blah, but I think in this case the I Ching is coming right out and saying make a clean break from these people. This is not so difficult when it comes to choosing our personal friends but what about when the inferior person has a position of power? I think 40.6 may speak to that. To shoot down the hawk it's going to take some very focused energy - perhaps a call to vote or even get involved in the campaigns?

So now I'm reading the way to come to terms with the reality of Trump is
a) Don't support him or his cult followers in anyway, break with them completely.
b) Vote.

I also think there is something to Hilary's insight that the 40.6 Hawk could represents fear and the fact that it leads to 6. and resolving Conflict here reminds me of the expression, "Let us never negotiate out of fear, but let us never fear to negotiate."

So bottomline I think I Ching is encouraging one ought not be fearful of standing up for one's ideals.
 
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rosada

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40.5.6 - 6
Sorry about the confusion - I can't seem to figure out how to correct it.

Ha! Just now fixed it!
 
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Freedda

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Hello Rosada. I've been thinking about this reading quite a bit. In order for me to get some handle on it - being one of these people like yourself - I tried making it personal but also more general, by asking: 'how can I come to terms with others whom I believe are causing or support great harm?'

What I have come up with - so far - seem more like reflections, or maybe suggested attitudes or approaches, but maybe not quite a complete answer. I also added some reflections at the end, but wanted to keep them separate, since they are related to, but not quite a part of, the reading.

For 40 - one name I think fits quite well here is 'Release From Indecision'. Looking at the trigrams, below we have water, which is perhaps a sense of being exposed, of confusion (about the unknown), or about facing danger. We're seeking some release or swift conclusion here (with Thunder above), but something is getting in the way with this Release, so our thoughts and emotions remain unresolved.

Looking just at the movement of - and changes to - the upper trigrams: here we have Thunder (40's upper) moving towards Heaven (6's upper): so perhaps this could be advice to look at the larger picture, and not just have a quick, fear-based (perhaps knee-jerk) reaction to what's going on.

With line 40.5: I often get on my high horse, and think, 'look at those stupid, scared people and how awful they're acting (or how bad they're voting)!' But looking at this line, I was reminded that I might want to ask, what fears do I have? And in what ways am I held in bondage? And how might this be similar to those lowly 'common' folk I seem to be in conflict with?

With 40.6: in the version I have it says that the duke 'takes aim at the raptor', but it doesn't say he actually hits it! For me, the message here is that we have to keep trying, and it's through our efforts that we make things happen - perhaps it's a message to not give into our fears or hopelessness, just because we didn't hit our target the first time!

I've heard Hex. 6 called 'Conflict' and 'Aruging' which might be easily attitudes to slip into, given the conflict we find ourselves in. But another name I've heard - and one I rather like - is 'Contrary Motion' which fits with the motion of the trigrams: we have the Heavens, above - with the sun, moon and stars - all traveling west; while at the same time, we have the rivers, below (the large rivers of ancient China) all traveling east.

What I'm reminded of here is that these movements are not good or bad unto themselves, but are part of the natural way of things - just like my political beliefs are not 'my fault', nor are they the result of some kind of warped, sick, traitorous thinking. So too, if others are going in a different direction than I (however stupid or dangerous I think it is), is that perhaps not their fault either?

But even with this new-found respect we might have for other's views, the oracle warns us to be wary of a 'middle path' - of a compromise that will likely not satisfy anyone. It also suggest (to me) that we need to continue to become knowledgeable about whatever issues we're concerned about (seeking the great person), and that we also need to fight this good fight in the trenches, one day at a time - and not as if we're always making a great crossing - and yes, this advice seems contrary to how great and pressing this issue is (and it also might help to keep us from feeling burnt out)!

Looking at bit more at 6, I am also reminded, that however far the heavens, sun, moon and stars travel to the west, they eventually make their way around to rising in the east - at a point where they again meet up with the rivers. So could this be suggesting that with this contrary motion there is also the possiblity of - hopefully, and maybe eventually - reconciliation?

And also, least I leave out 6's lower trigram, we still have water, the abyss, so maybe here is a reminder that our fears, these unknowns don't ever completely go away, but - and this is my add-on, they shouldn't serve as the sole basis for decision-making either.

***********************

A few random thoughs:

* A year or so ago, I was sitting in a local cafe and a group of local 'guys' was having breakfast together - and they were discussing global warming and climage change. I don't remember all what was said, but I do remember having a sense that they all were coming across as experts: they all knew exactly what the problem was and how to fix it - or they for sure knew that there was no problem!

I wanted to jump in and say: a friend of mine is about to have brain surgery, so can you tell me what is the best way for the surgeon to go about doing this?, or 'what are your thoughts about the latest research into subatomic particles like quarks and leptons?'

Which is to say, with our administration's simplification of the climate issue and it's attack on science and the media, we now have created a nation of experts, who know the 'truth' about climate change - and then vote for people with this same so-called understanding and knowledge.

** I am reminded of how powerful a force fear is, and also how much in denial we are about here in America. After all, we're supposed to be the greatest, strongest, bravest country on Earth, so how could we ever be scared of anything? But I think that many of us do live in/with fear, and it's this very same fear that drives people to seek common enemies, like 'socialist', or 'conservatives' - or 'environmentalist' or 'capitalist'; and we also seek stability - even if it means giving up rational thinking, or our government's checks and balances, or protecting people's rights - as long as we can then feel a bit more safe.

I suppose I could go on, but this seems like a good stopping point.

Best, David
 
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moss elk

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I asked the I Ching how a person like myself ...can come to terms with those who feel he is doing a great job as president?

Read this quote which has been attributed to different sources:

"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
 
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Freedda

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"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
And I've heard something similar from people on the right when talking about us lefties, e.g you just can't argue with those idiot, socialist liberals! And that contrary thinking - from either side - might be what this reading is pointing to.
 

moss elk

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Yes, but the key distinction to recognize is that the racist idiots at fox 'news' are a dangerous combination of fast talking con men and sophistry artists. They don't actually argue (Latin, make clear, prove.) which requires listening, considering, debating points...etc
they fight, try to bludgeon people with misinformation, yelling, and forrowed brows, when they aren't actually trying to start a race war (which it wouldn't be anyway, it would be a racist war against society, and society would win). Whenever they are criticised, their response is to attack the critic, ad homenin attacks, which are the precursor to actual physical violence.

So, the trick is not to directly engage them
(what is the sound of one boxer trying to tango alone?) , because it empowers them don't go to the park when the 'proud boys'/drinking club is having a demonstation,
because you'll end up the loser in the encounter. That's one reason you never hear intelligent, respectable, honorable people on a show such as the racist, misogonist, bigoted, sadistic, drug addicted 'rush limbaugh'.

About line 6?
well, I hear of at least one bounty that has been placed on a certain raptors head.
 
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Freedda

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Yes, but the key distinction to recognize is that the racist idiots at fox 'news' are a dangerous combination of fast talking con men and sophistry artists.
ME, I do not disagree with anything you're saying here, and I suspect that if we met over a few beers that we could do some pretty serious trash-talking about these 'idiots'.

But I think 1) this is not what the Yi's response is saying - at least from what I can tell and 2) Rosada is already well aware of this, and is looking for something beyond our righteous trash talking about Trump, Fox News, and Co.

Also, I've seen this happen at least a few times, where the thread turms into a long tirade about people's opinions and not at all about the actual reading, and it ends up getting move (rightfully so I think) into the Open Space forum, where very few people will look at it.

I remember that you and I have had a similar back and forth in another thread, where you said you felt it was your duty (moral, spiritual, patriotic, god-given, etc.?) to trash Trump and friends. I guess what I'm asking is you re-consider that, and instead focus on the reading.

Best, D
 

moss elk

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I guess what I'm asking is you re-consider that, and instead focus on the reading.
Best, D

Hi David,
I guess I should explain.

I did focus on the reading when I advised Rosada to Liberate (40) herself from the Conflict (6)

Everything else I said was a public service,
a contribution to civilization.
I've been an idiot quite a few times,
and I'm also one of those top 3%ers on every academic assessment I've ever had.
Therefore, I feel qualified to recognize and point out idiocy.

Did I miss anything in your imploring?
And I invite you to consider if your imploring may have some qualities of this Japanese Maxim:
 

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Freedda

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Did I miss anything in your imploring?
No. If it came across as imploring, then I apologize, and know that was not my intention - only that this discussion was starting to make me wonder, 'hmm, I've seen this before and I know where it leads to' (to Open Space la-la land).

If anyone missed anything it was me: I missed the fact that you were basing what you said on your understanding of the reading - and it wasn't just your opinions offered as a public service. In that case, I have no issue with anyone's understanding of the Yi's response, as long as it is somewhat intelligent and somewhat thoughtful.

And I never thought to question your intelligence. I'd have to place myself in the lower 97% I suspect - I just barely made it out of college with my BA in environmenal studies.

Best, D
 

moss elk

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I just barely made it out of college with my BA in environmenal studies.

I left college early after getting an A- on a paper from a teacher who didn't realize that they were really very bad at explaining the assignments they gave.
(Oy, the idiocy of my perfectionism...)

Oh, and my choice of the word 'implore' was poor, should have used something like 'nudging' instead. Apologies, David.
:zen:
 
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rosada

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Maybe 40.6 could represent shooting down untruths - at least then we might have a clearer understanding of what his reality is.
 

Lavalamp

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Rosada, although your headline was "Coming to Terms With The Reality of Trump" the actual question was different. One might paraphrase - Q - How (can) a person like myself ... can come to terms with those (she disagrees with on matters political?)
Yes, I have removed all assumptions of being right and others being wrong from the question. Because you did not even ask the Yi who is right and who is wrong. You ask rather how you can relate to - harmonize perhaps - with people that entirely disagree with you. Perhaps you have a particular person in mind.
So "How can I ... can come to terms with those I disagree with?"
40.5.6>6.
6 - Conflict, as the context - or as the result - of the question is obvious. In 6 you are sincere of course in what you think should be done. You are following your conscience. But meeting others halfway - compromise - is a good idea. Pushing through to the end - insisting on your way alone - brings misfortune.
40.5 - Of this line, Wilhelm/Baynes writes "If only the superior man can deliver himself, it brings good fortune." I think this line means you have to remove what is inferior in yourself. You must liberate yourself first, before you can liberate anyone else. Remove first the log from your own eye, then you will see more clearly to remove the twig from the other's eye. Be the change you want to see.
40.6 - In this line the prince shoots at a hawk on a high wall, and kills it. This benefits everyone.
Confucius/Legge: Thus he removes the promoters of rebellion. Wilhelm/ Baynes: Thereby he delivers himself from those who resist.
According to the commentaries, the Hawk is a symbol of rebellion and resistance, of sedition.
In your political scenario, who is "The Resistance"?

I think your reading says a truly superior person sets an example for others in reconciliation and compromise - does not just insist on their own way and practices their ideals in relationships. And if you do that yourself, then anyone that actually is inferior to you will be influenced - by your example.

- Q
 

rosada

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Compromise? How do you compromise with someone who believes he's above the law, who puts children in cages to die and whose supporters wear t-shirts saying "Mr President you can grab my pussy anytime"? No, there can be no compromise with evil. I believe 40.5 means you don't compromise, you stand up for your values and 40.6 is saying that means you don't tolerate even a little bit of evil ( "hey, it was only immigrant children who died!" ). This may lead to perpetual Conflict but maybe this is what is required if one is going to live in this world without losing their soul.

Interestingly, while we've been having this discussion a lost soul has turned up on our door step wanting permission to sleep on our porch. We've given him blankets and set up a place for him to sleep in our garage. Then last night we got an email from a neighbor posting a heads up to the neighborhood that a stranger is wandering about. So there you have it, two world views having to co-exist on the same block, one person reasonably saying protect yourself and another welcoming the stranger in. To avoid 6.Conflict we have responded to the neighbor with a thank you and letting them know we've talked to the guy and he seems harmless and is staying with us and then a talk with the fellow as to what his 6.rights and duties are if he is to stay here. ("Don't bother the neighbors!") So there's me standing up for my rights and co-existing, not denying the neighbors right to be concerned at the same time. Perhaps I will be able to help calm fears and change attitudes by being a Good Example of what I believe.
 
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Lavalamp

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Rosada, the reading says pretty firmly you must deliver yourself, if you expect to influence anyone.
40.5 - "Wilhelm renders this in a conditional sense: "If only the superior man can deliver himself..." Blofeld and Liu say that "only the superior man" can liberate himself. There is the implication that your "superiority" may be in question. You are challenged to take appropriate action to liberate yourself from your fetters."
To be frank where the Yi is being gentle, the issue blocking you from "coming to terms" with Trump supporters is a sense of self superiority.
The human conscience is a wolf. Depending what you feed it, it can become a raging beast that devours the world and murders millions of people. It needs to be fed with compassion and bridled with practice, the Golden Rule, treating others with the respect you would like to receive.
The advice in Hex 6 is meeting the other halfway, that pushing your own agenda/views/opinions to the end will bring misfortune.
Namaste.
-LL
 

moss elk

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Applying the Golden rule to trumpy.....
were I to do half of what he has done,
I would hope someone would stop me.
 

moss elk

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The human conscience is a wolf.
Not sure what word you were thinking of,
but "conscience" is not the right word.
A Conscience is what rump does not have...
Sociopathic, shameless, bullying, and sadistic.


The last time I got 40.6, it was also about a crook, (a thief) and I had him arrested and put before a judge.

lavalamp, I wonder if you can explain why you fail to recognize trumpy for the evil, mafia-wannabe, crook that he is? It would be enlightening to hear what sort of kool-aid you've drunk.
 
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Freedda

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lavalamp, I wonder if you can explain why you fail to recognize trumpy for the evil, mafia-wannabe, crook that he is? It would be enlightening to hear what sort of kool-aid you've drunk.
... and once again, we're off to the races!

I don't agree with all of LL's interpretation here, but the fact is, this reading isn't about Trump (nor what we feel about him); it's about how Rosada (or I, or others) can come to terms with the people whom support him.

Looking at the movement of the trigrams, the advice I glean here is to try and see the bigger picture, to gain a more 'from-on-high' wider view, instead of our usual sudden reactions, based on feelings of being in danger and being exposed (however justified those feelings are).

As Rosada has mentioned, for me, that means 'we go high, when they go low' or we better educate ourselves about the issues, so if we're talking with 'those people' we can hopefully change viewpoints, and not simply yell at them, 'oh, and by the way, you voted for that a__hole, which makes you one too!'

40.5 is a reminder that despite our fears and feeling exposed, we still have some choices, and that we need to recognize those same feelings and fears in those whom we're opposed to (they being the people, not Trump).

40.6 doesn't say that the hunter shot the raptor, only that he shot at it, so it's a reminder that it's the act of trying that is important here, that 'nothing (we do) cannot be turned to advantage'. It is a simply message perhaps, but one I feel is important for me, given how down I can get about challenges our nation and our world are facing.

Best, D
 

Lavalamp

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Well the two Uncles I knew growing up both became lawyers because they said it was the only way we of the "gutter races" could attain equality, by the law which is the great equalizer.
The Yi is also I think, a great equalizer. What is "The Superior Man (person)?"
1. - In my view to really hear what the Yi is saying, you have to attain a state of suspended judgement. You have to be strictly in the middle, walk the middle way. This is the way of "the superior man," unclouded by personal passions in order to see the truth of a situation or person.
The greater your contempt for others for whatever reason - politics, or even because they actually are a literal criminal - the harder it is to get back to the center line. Makes being a "superior man" more difficult.
2. - Namaste - hello and goodbye in India - means literally in Hinduism "I bow to the Divine in you." And we are all children of the same God. If all of India can greet Trump saying "Namaste Trump" - shouldn't we be able to as well? It is the way you build civility in society, to look for and see the good in others. You credit others as much as you can.
3. - In the Judeo Christian tradition, everyone really is no better than anyone else. We are all sinners from God's point of view, all the same and the distinctions we draw between each other trivial in the larger scheme of things.
Especially if ranking others confers a benefit to one's self or one's group.
- LL
 
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Freedda

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In my view to really hear what the Yi is saying, you have to attain a state of suspended judgement.
I agree. I am not sure if I'd call it that, but I think we need to be able to hear the responses from the Yi, and not make them our responses. I think it's extremely difficult to do that however - especially with romance and politics!
If all of India can greet Trump saying "Namaste Trump" - shouldn't we be able to as well?
I think we need to make a distinction between religious belief and political theater: Modi played to Trumps sociopathic ego, and put on an elaberate show for him, and Trump praised Modi's religous tolerance! However, not everyone in India was namaste-ing Trump! I'd think quite a few of them may not have paid attention, or they were too busy rioting:

The Indian website The Wire reported that a mob shouting "Jai Shri Ram", translated to "hail Lord Ram", paraded around the burning mosque in the Ashok Nagar area of the capital on Tuesday.

... so, I guess I'm confused: was 'all of India' praising the divine in Trump, or were they singing the praises of Lord Ram as they burned down a mosque?
In the Judeo Christian tradition, everyone really is no better than anyone else.
In some make-believe perfect world maybe people might believe that - and treat others accordingly - but that has never been a reality for most people within the Judeo-Christian tradition. If it were, we wouldn't have the blatant racism we do here in the US, and we would have never seen the rise of anti-semitism - both in the middle ages and now - within so-called Christian nations .....

I also think that that the Yi's responses might not always be as neutral as we'd like them to be. I could see for example, someone asking, 'tell me about the evil Trump has caused in our nation and in the world', and perhaps they might get a truely horrific response - even after setting aside their own biases!

I'm also reminded of the fact that within a few centuries of it's 'authorship' the main use of the Yi was to advise the emperors and leaders of the Zhou dynasty, which might have included advising them on war, violent suppression of their enemies, or maybe even the need, time and place for human sacrifice.

But again, Rosada's query was not about how bad Trump is - even if some of us feel that's a given! - but it was about what is the best personal response to that and to his supporters.

D
 
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Lavalamp

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If you look at the 2016 castings that were compiled here on who would win the Presidential election, it greatly irritated many of you that the Yi spoke of Trump in quite favorable terms.
Even when it seemed that he had no chance of winning, the majority of castings here indicated he would prevail. Including my own castings, which I found puzzling at the time.
Right now some people that consider it "a given Trump is bad" have behaved so badly themselves the public actually feels sorry for Trump, and he has the highest approval ratings of his presidency. Better than Obama at the same point, even.
You have to really have behaved pretty badly for people to feel sorry for a guy like Donald Trump. You could of course rather say, no, it is that he has done a decent job in his position.
Again, I think that what this reading says is you need to rethink how morally superior you really are. Are you being the example yourself in how you relate to others? And you should try to meet people halfway.
But that there is a general lack of self reflection and humility here on this issue - this is pretty self evident.
= LL
 
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moss elk

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3. - In the Judeo Christian tradition, everyone really is no better than anyone else. We are all sinners from God's point of view, all the same and the distinctions we draw between each other trivial in the larger scheme of things.

Thank you for giving an honest answer about the kool aid.
I respect your honesty.
 
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Freedda

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If you look at the 2016 castings that were compiled here on who would win ....
.... Better than Obama at the same point, even.
You keep saying that we should make this reading non-political, but then you keep dragging politics back into it. I mean, what does the 2016 election or Obama's popularity have to do with Rosada's reading? Not much that I can see.
Again, I think that what this reading says is you need to rethink how morally superior you really are.
The operative words here are 'I think' .... meaning this is only your interpretation and opinion, and not necessary what the Yi is actually saying. That's fine, and that is likely true for my 'interpretation' as well. But nowhere do I get that Rosada needs to fix her 'moral superiority' - that's not at all what the Yi is saying as far as I can tell.
But that there is a general lack of self reflection and humility here on this issue - this is pretty self evident.
As I said, it's hard for people - likely including you and I - to be neutral when asking about romance and politics! That said, I do not see that using the Yi requires that we have to put aside our political opinions - or that it's message is that we need to become more 'moral'.

Besides that, I'm not sure what or whose type of morality the Yi would be suggesting Rosada aspire to? Maybe the morality of Hindus who chant 'lord ram' as they burn down a Muslim mosque? If so, I'll pass on that.

I think the Yi only requires that we try to suspend or set aside our own thoughts and feelings for a bit to better understand what's being said - which is not unlike a physics teacher telling her class, 'for a moment, set aside your preconceived ideas of how the universe works ...." And in looking at her reflections on this reading, I get the sense that is what Rosada did. And I think that if she felt so morally superior, I doubt she would have asked the question in the first place.

D
 
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Liselle

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40.6 doesn't say that the hunter shot the raptor, only that he shot at it
Thanks for bringing this up. There's a translation discrepancy.

It looks as if Bradford's the only one (on this list) who doesn't say the bird is hit, killed, caught, or gotten. On the other hand, Bradford's good, so...

Bradford:
'The duke takes aim at the raptor atop the
high battlement’s peak
Success at this means nothing cannot be turned to advantage'

Harmen's new site:
'The prince shoots at a hawk on a high wall.
He kills it. Everything serves to further.'

Hilary:
'A prince uses this to shoot a hawk, on the top of the high ramparts.
He gets it.
Nothing that does not bear fruit.'

Huang:
'The prince is engaged in shooting a falcon
On top of a high city wall.
Hits it.
Nothing is unfavorable.

Karcher:
'The prince uses this to shoot a hawk on a high rampart above.
He catches it. There is nothing that is not advantageous.'

LiSe:
'The prince shoots a falcon on the top of a high rampart.
He hits it.
Harvest is sure.' (or, 'Nothing that does not bear fruit.')

WikiWing:
'A prince uses this to shoot a hawk, up on the high ramparts above.
Nothing that does not bring harvest: he gets it.'

Wilhelm:
'The prince shoots at a hawk on a high wall.
He kills it. Everything serves to further.'
 
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Freedda

Guest
Harmen's new site:
'The prince shoots at a hawk on a high wall. He kills it. Everything serves to further ....
This 'new' site uses Wilhem's translation, not Harmen's own words - he is still working on his 'translation' (and now actively working on 10.1). But the main point is, I am right and everyone else has it wrong! :duh:

Or, I think that 40.6 is saying that it is in the doing that we find benefit, and if that means we only try to hunt the raptor or we actually hit it, both are 'the doing' and hence 'nothing cannot be turned to advantage.'

E.g. people around here say they are going 'fishing', they don't say they are going 'catching' - though that is the preferred outcome. So, I think 40.6 is more about 'fishing' - but it's only by fishing, that we might actually catch sonething.

Or, do you see another meaning here? And why did you feel you needed to quote 8 different translations? - to show that I am wrong?

D
 
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