Date and Time I Ching ..?!

[ivss]

Any time you divide by 8 and get a remainder of 8 you know you are in trouble.

That's good to know, now I'll know what to watch out for Thanks!

 

[Sparhawk]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! Okay I got it now thank you so much

And one last Calendric Divination question (for now ). When you divide it by 6 (which will give you the changing line) what does that exactly mean? or what do you do with this changing line?

As Meng/Bruce suggested, here is word from our sponsor: Clarity products and services

 

[Sparhawk]

The technique you are using is based in older metaphysical work, back in the day when calculators and computers were job titles not machines. A mod division function is needed to give a simple integer answer without having to figure out anything. Any time you divide by 8 and get a remainder of 8 you know you are in trouble.

If you divide by 8 you could never receive a remainder of 8 as that remainder is also divisible by 8. Every number that is divisible by 8 is considered to have a remainder of 8 and thus will result in Dui as the obtained trigram under the rules set forth by Shao Yong.

 

[fkegan]

If you divide by 8 you could never receive a remainder of 8 as that remainder is also divisible by 8. Every number that is divisible by 8 is considered to have a remainder of 8 and thus will result in Dui as the obtained trigram under the rules set forth by Shao Yong.

Hi Luis,
You have discovered the deep mathematical truth in my aphorism!

If you are trying to divide by 8 to distribute a large number among 8 possible alternatives (0-7) in remainder terms, but instead you have a number clearly not a multiple of 8 but you get a remainder of 8, then you must have lost your way. That is why in that post I first gave the two relevant multiples of 8 to show the number being divided wasn't one of them and thus had to have a different remainder.

I did appreciate seeing the European (or Argentine) style of division scanned onto the post. I was pointing out a more theoretical way to get to the same place...I thought I was being polite to not note the arithmetic wasn't correct.

Frank

 

[Sparhawk]

I did appreciate seeing the European (or Argentine) style of division scanned onto the post. I was pointing out a more theoretical way to get to the same place...I thought I was being polite to not note the arithmetic wasn't correct.

Frank

I should point out that I'm not from Argentina. Charly is. I am from Uruguay, as well as Sergio... Almost same accent though and same taste in foods, in a smaller package...

And yes, it is the European style, indeed. I wonder, whose arithmetic was incorrect?

 

[fkegan]

I should point out that I'm not from Argentina. Charly is. I am from Uruguay, as well as Sergio... Almost same accent though and same taste in foods, in a smaller package...

And yes, it is the European style, indeed. I wonder, whose arithmetic was incorrect?

The original arithmetic that divided by 8 and got remainder 8 was the only error I was referring to.

There are all these bits of personal and biographical data floating about...one of the perqs of being around longer I guess.

My sense was that Uruguay did better in their politics than Argentina. My only visit to Rosario was in the span between Perons.

I have questions still about the value of turning a date and time into an oracle in this way. Then I use an astrological technique that actually takes the planetary positions in the signs and turns that into an oracle---don't have issues of needing an exact time only the moon usually moves a bunch during a single day.

Frank

 

[ivss]

About the AM/PM I found out online that you do a 24 hour clock .. so for 3pm you'd do 15, 4pm is 16, and so on.

 

[Sparhawk]

About the AM/PM I found out online that you do a 24 hour clock .. so for 3pm you'd do 15, 4pm is 16, and so on.

Actually, I think that is incorrect... The Chinese of the Song Dynasty didn't count the hours of the day in sets of 24. As a matter of fact, they used 12 double hours to divide the day... But, I won't into any more details beyond that as otherwise this thread will never end and it is a good thing for you to find other sources of information...

 

[Sparhawk]

My sense was that Uruguay did better in their politics than Argentina. My only visit to Rosario was in the span between Perons.

Well, the same way I pointed very real similarities in our accents and diet, I must also point that, even though they are two very different countries in their democratic and political systems, the same breed of A..holes took over our countries in the 70's and early 80's. Think of former U.S.A.G. Alberto Gonzalez, dressed in a military uniform, as a plenipotentiary president... Literally, chimps whom were given machine guns and cattle-prods to play with, with the rest of the people, not in military fatigues, as cattle; all with the coercion and backing of Big-Brother up north. Ah..., the nostalgia of the Cold War years...

I have questions still about the value of turning a date and time into an oracle in this way. Then I use an astrological technique that actually takes the planetary positions in the signs and turns that into an oracle---don't have issues of needing an exact time only the moon usually moves a bunch during a single day.

Obviously, there will be no 'value' for you if you can't find it in the system explained. On the other hand, the question, and the answer, was "how-to".

 

[fkegan]

Everything grows from its roots...

Well, the same way I pointed very real similarities in our accents and diet, I must also point that, even though they are two very different countries in their democratic and political systems, the same breed of A..holes took over our countries in the 70's and early 80's. Think of former U.S.A.G. Alberto Gonzalez, dressed in a military uniform, as a plenipotentiary president... Literally, chimps whom were given machine guns and cattle-prods to play with, with the rest of the people, not in military fatigues, as cattle; all with the coercion and backing of Big-Brother up north. Ah..., the nostalgia of the Cold War years...

Obviously, there will be no 'value' for you if you can't find it in the system explained. On the other hand, the question, and the answer, was "how-to".

Hi Luis,

In law school, one class taught by a visiting Prof from Australia (they were slow to get the black list, so the radical Berkeley academics could get tenure there and then be visiting profs back in the States) showed how all those ugly regimes of the '70's in Latin America arose from the idealistic hopes of the early '60's under Kennedy when the U.S. law professors from Harvard thought they were helping their Latin little brothers by getting rid of their old Constitutions and putting in the lovely new ones based upon the magical goodness of the U.S. document.

Took them awhile to figure out the error of their ways, which they expressed in scholarly articles in obscure journals as they were spectators to the whole of the Americas slip into the swamp...

They were not aware of the requirement for the Anglo-American tradition of holding the executive to the rule of law, not just letting his cronies play with the levers of power and loot the treasury. However, you exactly pegged the root of the evil, when Alberto Gonzalez was put in to politicize U.S. justice, we got ourselves an old style banana republic IMMEDIATELY... I guess all the Americas are the same basic folks.

As to finding a Yi oracle from a date and time, starting with the example of the Hiroshima Bomb in local AM/PM mechanical clocktime clearly the model...the details that the Chinese used a whole different system for their hours is just the beginning of the problems. It is pretty much an Aleister Crowley technique from Victorian England with his notions of the 24 hours in the day and the wonders of mechanical clocks.

Of course, using such a technique does tie you to that Golden Dawn magical perspective rather than the Ancient Chinese system where YOU are the focus of all your oracles, not some arbitrary mechanism to generate a variant of a horoscope from the calendar--mechanical clock timing used to generate a variant of an oracle with a guaranteed one and only one moving line.

Implicit in the 'how do I do' this technique is the question of is this a good technique or am I following an evil Victorian into his lair...like following A.G. Alberto G. just because he held the official post to a novel way to find justice that fits prior expectations and current corruption (always trying to tie asides to back to the thread whether they are connected or not).

Frank

 

[Sparhawk]

Implicit in the 'how do I do' this technique is the question of is this a good technique or am I following an evil Victorian into his lair...like following A.G. Alberto G. just because he held the official post to a novel way to find justice that fits prior expectations and current corruption (always trying to tie asides to back to the thread whether they are connected or not).

Well..., do you question a engineering manual? That's what I mean for "how to"... Would be like questioning the assembly described in a blueprint for a Spandau machine gun. The goal of the blueprint is to build the machine gun. The ethics (or lack thereof) of using it, once finished, is irrelevant to the assembly...

 

[fkegan]

Well..., do you question a engineering manual? That's what I mean for "how to"... Would be like questioning the assembly described in a blueprint for a Spandau machine gun. The goal is to build the machine gun. The ethics (or lack thereof) of using it, once finished, is irrelevant to the assembly...

Really?! Don't you think such a delightful killing machine should come with a note... by the way, the folks who really, really enjoy the smooth power of this phallic symbol and the exalted feeling of being able to mow down an entire battalion of cavalry or civilians tend to not be the ideal folks to hitch your wagon to.

I agree it is not part of the instruction manual on assembly, but other folks might put it into the shipping crate, like an inspected by #99 slip, the commentary upon the implications, especially when it is being delivered as a first technique to meet the oracle and the Yi spirit.

Frank

 

[Sparhawk]

Well, I'm not one to filter knowledge. Somebody ask a question and if I know the answer, I'll share it. Perhaps, in a good Confucian way, though, I'll try to show only the corner of the pattern, the student is supposed to complete it on his own. I expect the questioner to follow his/her own path to fulfillment.

To do otherwise, with available knowledge, reminds me of the good Vatican practice of stashing away thousands of esoteric works in obscure, underground shelving. Who's to say, or has the authority to control, what comes out to the public light?

Here, I'm the one holding the apple from the Tree of Knowledge...

 

[fkegan]

Well, I'm not one to filter knowledge. Somebody ask a question and if I know the answer, I'll share it. Perhaps, in a good Confucian way, though, I'll try to show only the corner of the pattern, the student is supposed to complete it on his own. I expect the questioner to follow his/her own path to fulfillment.

To do otherwise, with available knowledge, reminds me of the good Vatican practice of stashing away thousands of esoteric works in obscure, underground shelving. Who's to say, or has the authority to control, what comes out to the public light?

Here, I'm the one holding the apple from the Tree of Knowledge...

Hi Luis,
I wasn't in the least objecting to your answering the original question...I think your inclusion of machine gun schematics and Eve with the Snake is more than ample warning that there might be ethical implications involved.

Even more, given the way the original question was enforced upon the newbie sibling seeking coin oracle instruction mentioned in the origin of the thread, clearly this was a baby bird with an insistent chirp to get his calendar method NOW!. You chose to feed the hatchling and you are taking the maternal imprint well. I am just taking the second banana roll of the godfather adding to the joyous event the note of moral instruction required, especially when the birth was midwifed by the Cable TV.

I guess in your drawing I would be the one writing a note on Eve's revisionist oak leaf that all fruit at this point is organic and this leaf is out of place until after she eats the apple (probably actually a pomegranate since apples come from other regions) and the pomegranate is the archetype of the grenada or anti-personnel fragmentation explosive which is where this scene is headed when the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge is being restricted by the Imperialist occupation...

Or in the context of your exact remarks, I wouldn't interfere with the free dissemination
of the engineering manual, but I might write graffiti upon its open spaces upon the cover noting that this design was developed for peculiar armies and includes their peculiar beliefs....which is what I did.

I never, never criticized what you did, just added my issues with the apparent origins and implications of the technique, as so generously shared by you :bows: since I had nothing to contribute in terms of how one might reproduce the History Channel technique knowing only computer randomness routines and ancient Yi metaphysics. And, as noted, the questioner was urgent and unfamiliar with hex 4 .

Frank

 

[Sparhawk]

I certainly hope he will find his/her way to Hilary's course... Too many basic questions... I wonder what he will do with the hexagrams once obtained. Have you seen the movie "23"?

 

[ivss]

Actually, I think that is incorrect... The Chinese of the Song Dynasty didn't count the hours of the day in sets of 24. As a matter of fact, they used 12 double hours to divide the day... But, I won't into any more details beyond that as otherwise this thread will never end and it is a good thing for you to find other sources of information...

I downloaded a book on I Ching, and I was looking for the Calendric Divination and that's what it said. So now I am confused, cause my trigrams will be wrong, since everyone is saying a different thing... so I don't know hehe, but that's what the book said

 

[fkegan]

I certainly hope he will find his/her way to Hilary's course... Too many basic questions... I wonder what he will do with the hexagrams once obtained. Have you seen the movie "23"?

Hi Luis,
I saw the trailer for 23 and now that we have Netflix, I put it on the list, I'll it on DVD very soon. Speaking of weird divination stuff...did you ever hear of The Dice Man by Luke Rhinehart (c) 1971? Apparently a bad reaction to the New Age Divination of that time. I have the book since it is strange relative to a real dice oracle. His was an alternative will--you make up 6 options and do whatever one the dice cube rolls to.

Hi ivss,

I downloaded a book on I Ching, and I was looking for the Calendric Divination and that's what it said. So now I am confused, cause my trigrams will be wrong, since everyone is saying a different thing... so I don't know hehe, but that's what the book said

What book on I Ching? Why are you interested in Calendric Divination? and what is your interest in I Ching?

I would agree with Luis, the beginner's course here by Hilary would be a reasonable place to start learning I Ching. No divination will get you much of anywhere unless you know what its parameters are and what it is that you seek through that divination. Your confusion seems a bit puzzling. Perhaps you could describe what you do understand, what it is you want from all this I Ching stuff--much quicker process in the long run.

In terms of the trigrams derived from the Calendric technique Luis described, everyone agrees the Hiroshima bomb time data relates to trigram Kun over trigram Li--the unanimity was remarkable--even three sets of arithmetic all coming to the same 7 and 6 remainders. What confused you exactly?... explain what you understand and what you don't so we can speak to you in terms you can relate to already.

Frank

 

[ivss]

Hi ivss,

What book on I Ching? Why are you interested in Calendric Divination? and what is your interest in I Ching?

I would agree with Luis, the beginner's course here by Hilary would be a reasonable place to start learning I Ching. No divination will get you much of anywhere unless you know what its parameters are and what it is that you seek through that divination. Your confusion seems a bit puzzling. Perhaps you could describe what you do understand, what it is you want from all this I Ching stuff--much quicker process in the long run.

In terms of the trigrams derived from the Calendric technique Luis described, everyone agrees the Hiroshima bomb time data relates to trigram Kun over trigram Li--the unanimity was remarkable--even three sets of arithmetic all coming to the same 7 and 6 remainders. What confused you exactly?... explain what you understand and what you don't so we can speak to you in terms you can relate to already.

Hi Frank
the book is called Tao Of I Ching Clearly. Since ever I found out that you can pick a specific date and time I thought that I could use this when I will go somewhere and see how it will go. I don't know, I just find that very interesting, and I also find the 3 Coin Divination interesting too.

About my remainders, I already understand what I did wrong, so I know how they got the trigrams for the Hiroshima. The only thing I am confused about now, is the AM/PM because the book I used had 13 for 1pm, 14 for 2pm, 15 for 3pm and so on. Because the I Ching wont know if it's AM/PM if you just put 1.

 

[fkegan]

Hi Frank
the book is called Tao Of I Ching Clearly. Since ever I found out that you can pick a specific date and time I thought that I could use this when I will go somewhere and see how it will go. I don't know, I just find that very interesting, and I also find the 3 Coin Divination interesting too.

About my remainders, I already understand what I did wrong, so I know how they got the trigrams for the Hiroshima. The only thing I am confused about now, is the AM/PM because the book I used had 13 for 1pm, 14 for 2pm, 15 for 3pm and so on. Because the I Ching wont know if it's AM/PM if you just put 1.

Hi ivss,
In general, using the 3 coin technique allows you to choose your own question any time of any day and get an oracle exactly to your question.

In terms of time, the method seems to use local time done in 24 hour clock format since that way you have a unique time for each hour of the day. Again, it is an English cultural simplification since mechanical clocks and clock time is a Western notion based upon the need of monks under St.Benedict's Rule to be awakened at 3 AM to pray.

Again, study up on the Yi. There is a world of information on this site and a range of texts and translations. You will find your experience with your own oracles will be a major help as well.

And again, the paradigm of Western I Ching studies is the Wilhelm translation which would be important to know about if you are going to speak about the Yi in English to folks familiar with that text.
Good Luck. Fruitful Zest...

Frank

 

[ivss]

Hi ivss,
In general, using the 3 coin technique allows you to choose your own question any time of any day and get an oracle exactly to your question.

In terms of time, the method seems to use local time done in 24 hour clock format since that way you have a unique time for each hour of the day. Again, it is an English cultural simplification since mechanical clocks and clock time is a Western notion based upon the need of monks under St.Benedict's Rule to be awakened at 3 AM to pray.

Again, study up on the Yi. There is a world of information on this site and a range of texts and translations. You will find your experience with your own oracles will be a major help as well.

And again, the paradigm of Western I Ching studies is the Wilhelm translation which would be important to know about if you are going to speak about the Yi in English to folks familiar with that text.
Good Luck. Fruitful Zest...

Frank

I know that if I used the 3 coin method I'd be able to chose a question and time,but I am not good with this yet, actually I've never tried it. The calendric seemed simpler to me than the 3 coin one, because I don't understand the changing lines, how to get them and what they mean.

 

[fkegan]

I know that if I used the 3 coin method I'd be able to chose a question and time,but I am not good with this yet, actually I've never tried it. The calendric seemed simpler to me than the 3 coin one, because I don't understand the changing lines, how to get them and what they mean.

Hi Ivss,
That is a much simpler question ultimately--since if you do all this stuff to with a calendar watch, you end up with an Oracle with one moving line which puts you back into your quandary.

If you have three pennies, say and take the heads to be Yang and the Tails to be yin--then the moving lines are the throws where you get all the same values, 3 heads or 3 tails. All other throws will have two of one kind and one of the other, these have the Yin or Yang value of the UNIQUE coin, so 2 tails and a head, has one head which is the unique one and thus would be stable Yang.

Once one has cast six lines, the bottom line first and then the other five on top of it until the final or top line is your 6th cast. Yang lines are a single stroke, Yin lines are broken in the middle. Moving Yang lines are yang lines with a circle in the middle showing they are becoming Yin. Moving Yin lines are broken with an X in the middle showing they are filling in to become Yang.

Then you need a text with a chart to find the hexagram name and number from the pattern of the first 3 lines (called a trigram) and that of the final or top three lines. When you look up that hexagram in your text it will have commentary on the hexagram as a whole and each of the possible moving lines. When the lines all change the hexagram timing will change to the other hexagram with those lines flipped between Yang and Yin.

Either the text will immediately make sense to you or you need help--probably starting with the Wilhelm so you can be on the same page as everyone else who uses the Wilhelm I Ching paradigm.
If that doesn't help you need to contact Hilary, probably through the readings Tab at the tippie-top of the page and have her guide you through the process to seeing your meaning. It is more of a question of focus or letting go of whatever it is that is blocking you so powerfully from forming a relationship with the Yi Oracle.

Doing calendar based oracles as an alternative to figuring out how to find and interpret moving lines is NOT a wise choice. You seem very confused, to put it mildly, and far more appropriate to contact Hilary to explore your issues fully and get yourself on a solid learning path with the Yi, then to continue this thread...

Sincerely,

Dr. Frank R. Kegan, Psy. D.

 

[ivss]

Hi Ivss,
That is a much simpler question ultimately--since if you do all this stuff to with a calendar watch, you end up with an Oracle with one moving line which puts you back into your quandary.

If you have three pennies, say and take the heads to be Yang and the Tails to be yin--then the moving lines are the throws where you get all the same values, 3 heads or 3 tails. All other throws will have two of one kind and one of the other, these have the Yin or Yang value of the UNIQUE coin, so 2 tails and a head, has one head which is the unique one and thus would be stable Yang.

Once one has cast six lines, the bottom line first and then the other five on top of it until the final or top line is your 6th cast. Yang lines are a single stroke, Yin lines are broken in the middle. Moving Yang lines are yang lines with a circle in the middle showing they are becoming Yin. Moving Yin lines are broken with an X in the middle showing they are filling in to become Yang.

Then you need a text with a chart to find the hexagram name and number from the pattern of the first 3 lines (called a trigram) and that of the final or top three lines. When you look up that hexagram in your text it will have commentary on the hexagram as a whole and each of the possible moving lines. When the lines all change the hexagram timing will change to the other hexagram with those lines flipped between Yang and Yin.

Either the text will immediately make sense to you or you need help--probably starting with the Wilhelm so you can be on the same page as everyone else who uses the Wilhelm I Ching paradigm.
If that doesn't help you need to contact Hilary, probably through the readings Tab at the tippie-top of the page and have her guide you through the process to seeing your meaning. It is more of a question of focus or letting go of whatever it is that is blocking you so powerfully from forming a relationship with the Yi Oracle.

Doing calendar based oracles as an alternative to figuring out how to find and interpret moving lines is NOT a wise choice. You seem very confused, to put it mildly, and far more appropriate to contact Hilary to explore your issues fully and get yourself on a solid learning path with the Yi, then to continue this thread...

Sincerely,

Dr. Frank R. Kegan, Psy. D.

Wow, so I just tried the 3 coin divination right now for the first time. I must say I was shocked by the answer I got, very interesting. I hope I understand it now, I also used some help from some sites that I printed information on the coin divination. Thanks for the help

 

[fkegan]

Wow, so I just tried the 3 coin divination right now for the first time. I must say I was shocked by the answer I got, very interesting. I hope I understand it now, I also used some help from some sites that I printed information on the coin divination. Thanks for the help

The Yi oracle is the portal to meet and be amazed by the I Ching. Good Luck with your divinations.
Frank

 

[jesed]

What Jesed uses is different and is post-fact. Very interesting technique, indeed.

Since Hilary also asked me (by pm) about that calendaric techniques, and I was unable to answer her by the same way; here is the link to an old post about it
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=259

Best

 

[sergio]

Thanks,Jesed! Really good post.
Sergio

 

[jesed]

Hi sergio

Beacuse examples are the best way to confront and learn, here is one real example about the aplication of this tool
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/frien...ead.php?t=3323

 

[sergio]

Hola Jesed!
Thank you for the example and previous explanation.i am currently testing it on my own and i'll get back to you with my comments(if any) or just to share the experience.
Sergio