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Former Heaven and Later Heaven Origin

solun

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Yes, lienshan, sorry, I didn't mean to try to re-interpret what you had said earlier. I was meaning to penetrate further into the meaning of the tri and/or hexagrams as 'elements' of nature, and these meanings having some bearing perhaps on the progression of things ...

What about casting each line, or yao, as is done with the yarrow sticks?
 

fkegan

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Chou Yi is different from earlier elements, trigrams, etc

I don't think there are as many who will watch the debates as must needs be. Most think politicians will say anything, which is true, or they will vote on one or two very subjective, simplistic and lazy reasons. God help us.

Politicians especially facing election right now use many ploys. However, in time of crisis they are called to remember they have jobs to do governing the nation. Conduct now is the best example of how they will deal with a crisis, since they are dealing with a crisis.:duh: Some like McCain keep campaigning and spouting rhetoric about not. Never being able or interested in governing well. Others deal with the crisis easily and keep campaigning as well. And the polls remain neck and neck--what an electorate!

Similarly, the oracle of the Yi is just that--the technique of consulting the innovation of Chou to develop a new oracle. Archeologists note there were many mounds of used tortoise shells before 1100BCE but by 1000 BCE they disappear. Folks weren't roasting tortoise shells in large numbers any more. The had another oracle to use.

So, the question arises why continue to use the older techniques to interpret the novel innovation? What do trigrams, yang-yin developments from prior philosophy have to do with the new concepts of the Later Heaven or Chou Yi?

Erime noted that if you start with the Magic Square of the numbers 1-9 you get a circle which can be turned one way to get the Earlier Heaven and another way to get the Later Heaven. I reply that Magic Square is a mathematical detail of arranging those 9 numbers into 4 pairs adding to 10 each and the middle number 5 left in the middle. Those pairs if kept in sequence yield the taiji pattern of Earlier Heaven, those pairs arranged in terms of cardinal directions-horizontal, vertical and two diagonals yield Later Heaven.

This is not a fundamental discovery of the mysteries of the Yi or the origin of the KWS. It is a simple mathematical pattern. Corresponding the numbers 1-9 to the 8 trigrams and central Earth or to the visible planetary bodies by distance from the sun or mean daily motion are only very superficial associations. Basically, it is all about arranging the numbers 1-9 in pairs from the ends and then associating them to anything you wish. There is no fundamental connection between planetary bodies or trigrams to specific numbers in the series 1-9.

The King Wen Sequence divides into two unequal halves, the first 3 sets of 10 and the remaining hexagrams. The first 3 sets of 10 follow the Chinese philosophical divisions of the Earth and its process, human social relations, and Cosmic processes. Lines and trigrams are components in this symbolic system, but they (or their arrangements) do not determine or explain the origin of this Chou Yi.

My other remarks refer to the history of technology in terms of the appearance of major innovations. There are many perspectives, people are well entitled to as many as they wish of their own. In my work with the Yi, I have at least 6 detailed on my website on my Flux Tome page.

My remarks here were asking the question does the Later Heaven or KWS or the Chou Yi arise from its trigrams or Line values? If so, how is it different from Earlier Heaven or tortoise shell oracles? If it is a new system based upon the meaning associated with the hexagram gua, then what do the earlier arrangements have to do with it?

Traditional scholarship indicates that it is difficult if not impossible to explain these new arrangements from the old elements or notions. I agree. They are a new system not associated with the old crap--they are their own new crap as it were.:brickwall:

Frank
 

lienshan

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There is no fundamental connection between planetary bodies or trigrams to specific numbers in the series 1-9.

The King Wen Sequence divides into two unequal halves, the first 3 sets of 10 and the remaining hexagrams.
Your problem is to explain, why the second half consists of 34 hexagrams, that cannot be divided by 10.

Another explanation is, that the two parts originally consisted of each 18 hexagrams, of which most of them represented two hexagrams, if they changed when turned upside down. All in all 36 hexagrams each similar to a decan of the zodiac ... that's why I'm possitive to planetary theory of erime, although I don't understand it in details :D

lienshan
 

solun

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"This is not a fundamental discovery of the mysteries of the Yi or the origin of the KWS. It is a simple mathematical pattern. Corresponding the numbers 1-9 to the 8 trigrams and central Earth or to the visible planetary bodies by distance from the sun or mean daily motion are only very superficial associations. Basically, it is all about arranging the numbers 1-9 in pairs from the ends and then associating them to anything you wish. There is no fundamental connection between planetary bodies or trigrams to specific numbers in the series 1-9.

The King Wen Sequence divides into two unequal halves, the first 3 sets of 10 and the remaining hexagrams. The first 3 sets of 10 follow the Chinese philosophical divisions of the Earth and its process, human social relations, and Cosmic processes." - Frank


Frank, you're contradicting yourself.

The fruitful insights of another simply are. If they possess the comprehension to entertain, let it be so. I think origin and evolution need to be distinguished here as separate phenomenon, for the sake or organization. Approaches to either may be metaphysic, cosmologic, or philistine. It depends on one's body of knowledge and frame of reference. It is itself in the process of illuminating itself. :)
 
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frank_r

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I've created a Flash animation illustrating my process - it's a bit quick, but it is intended to indicate the method in general.

You can download it here: http://www.datafilehost.com/download-16068450.html
(for future ref. - if it is not downloaded with 30 days it will be deleted).

You will need Flash Player to watch it.

Hope it illustrates my theory a bit better.

Hallo erime,

Thanks for the flash animation. Very impressive. The animation goes very quickly, but after playing it on a slow speed I understood your theorie more than before. Looking at the animation, I would say it gives a clear relation between the two sequences. Good work !!

Frank
 

erime

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Thanks Frank - I made the effort because I do think there is something logical and kind of scientific behind the procedure - the coincidences are too uncanny.

Out of interest, what is the most simple extrapolation anyone is aware of from the Later Heaven trigram arrangement to the King Wen I-Ching hexagram sequence?

I read a pretty good one in a Bagua Zhang book (which I left back in the UK before I came to China unfortunately), but I can't remember it now.

Anyone?
 

Sparhawk

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lienshan

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Out of interest, what is the most simple extrapolation anyone is aware of from the Later Heaven trigram arrangement to the King Wen I-Ching hexagram sequence?
The connection between the Later Heaven trigram arrangement and the King Wen hexagram arrangement
is like the connection between the planets (your explanation) and the stars ...

The structure of the King Wen hexagram sequence is (as explained in the sparhawk link above) two times
18 hexagrams, all in all 36 hexagrams each representing a "decan" ... but as in Babylon and Egypt 1300 BC
36 non-zodiacal decans:

"Before the Greek invention of horoscopic astrology in the first few centuries B.C., the Babylonian and Egyptian traditions of star-gazing and omens did not focus so exclusively on the zodiac. As the heavens turned from east to west (called “primary motion” in astrology), different constellations rose, culminated, and fell, depending on one’s latitude and the season of the year. Originally, the Egyptians associated 36 constellations with the calendar (non-zodiacal).

They were also used for calendrical purposes: each day, for ten days, the Egyptians would note what stars were rising with the sun. After ten days, they’d consider it the start of the next decan. But it is clear that the Egyptians hadn’t regularized the decans into degrees. For it makes sense geometrically to have 36 decans of ten degrees each. But since the year is 365 days long (actually 365 ¼), the actual length of the year in days (by which they measured the decans) does not match the number of degrees in a circle. Very quickly the calendar would break down."

Astrology is unknown to me, but the counting measurement of ten days looks to me like the ten heavenly stems known from the Shang tortoise divination records ... and the Shang dynasty calendar was with it's
12 earthly branches too non-zodiacal.

lienshan
 

fkegan

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Later Heaven and KWS gestalt meaning connected

Your problem is to explain, why the second half consists of 34 hexagrams, that cannot be divided by 10.
lienshan

Hi Lienshan,
My first thought is that there have to be 64 hexagrams to fully account for a 6-place gua with two line values; however, I can play the game too. There are six sets of 10 in the Chou Yi plus a final four hexagrams. If one looks at the hexagrams 61-64 they can be seen to represent inside open, outside open, starting and completing. Thus the notion of the KWS as a new, quantum leap from all the trigram sequence and numbering of before to a perspective of gua as gestalt is clearly built into the sequence of the line patterns.

This perspective joins this new insight of 1100 BCE in China to the global awareness of the 6th century BCE and illustrates parallels between the Chou Yi, Pythagorean number cubes, and the astrological zodiac.

This gestalt perspective is further demonstrated when the 64 hexagrams of the KWS are arranged in a circle hex 3-62 with 60 hexagrams of 6 lines or a total of 360 lines and the first pair and last pair of hexagrams placed at the cardinal points of perpendiculars the result is a correspondence of the Chou Yi to the astrological zodiac which can be demonstrated in particular, line to degree using the Sabian Symbols.

The question than becomes the whether the personal choice to relate the Chou Yi to other systems is any better or worse than the equally personal choice to relate the KWS to number pairs 1-9 or to planetary positions related to the numbers 1-8 or 9, etc. I would suggest the deciding factor is what does the personal perspective add to one's understanding of the Yi. The planetary correspondence only shows a cute process. The gestalt perspective with the numbering matrix like the Pythagorean Tetraktys, makes the KWS Chinese numbers, that is say hex 25 as the third set of 10 (0,1,2 in our numbers) which begins with hex 21 as the Monad or total description of the set and then it is the 5th hexagram in that set related to all other hexagrams with a number 5. In this system, the Chou Yi is a matrix like the Periodic Table of the Elements.

As to the correspondence from the Later Heaven to the King Wen Sequence: The quantum leap new notion is to take the gua as a meaningful gestalt without any concern for the Yang/Yin pattern. Thus the meaning of the trigram determines the placement. The four cardinal points become: Top Fire or Sun, bottom Water or Sea or ground water for those only focused upon inland, rural China. Left most the energy of thunder arising from the Earth, Rightmost Lake where water collects at the lowest level of the local topography. Between Thunder and Sun (Fire) is Wind, between Sun shining down and the Lake is the Earth with its levels of elevation of the topography indicated by its open (or Yin) places. Opposite the elevation levels of K'un is the elevation energy of Mountain. Opposite the pressure gradient of Wind is the energy of Sunshine (Ch'ien).

Overall, the Later Heaven arranges the Trigrams in a Top-Bottom-Left-Right circle by the MEANING of the gua as an integral gestalt just as the KWS arranges the hexagram gua gestalten into a matrix by sets of 10 (with the final four in the magical 7th set) and by number following universal principles still found in the Chinese numbers 1-9 and in the Pythagorean number patterns following the Tetraktys formula of 1+2+3+4 = 10.

Different folks for different strokes. :) Or for Ermine show how your perspective shows in the KWS itself indications of the planetary hypothesis. Lienshan takes the traditional Chinese view, that something new only in 1100 BCE is too young and unproven to be considered, the older Shang tortoise shell oracle is what matters, even though the numerous heaps of such oracle bones disappeared within a century of the Chou Yi.

Frank R. Kegan, Psy.D.
 

lienshan

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Lienshan takes the traditional Chinese view, that something new only in 1100 BCE
is too young and unproven to be considered
Thanks for the compliment :bows:

ziweiyuan_dh.gif


Hexagram 2:
It is favorable to find friends in the west and south,
To forego friends in the east and north.

Hexagram 39:
The southwest furthers.
The northeast does not further.

Hexagram 40:
The southwest furthers.

The three sections, which make up the north celestial pole are called the Three Enclosures.
The stars in these areas can be seen at all times throughout the year.
In ancient China the Purple Forbidden Enclosure was considered the middle of the sky.
The Supreme Palace Enclosure was to the east and the north of Purple Forbidden Enclosure.
The Heavenly Market Enclosure was to the west and south of Purple Forbidden Enclosure.

lienshan :D
 

fkegan

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Hi Lienshan,

Your welcome. I do appreciate the traditional Chinese perspective. Gia-Fu Feng spoke of his family being immigrants to Shanghai, originally being from the area where Genghis Khan came through, and moving at that time. He said he remembers some of his uncle's still being upset over the dishonor of family members in that event.

Personally, I cling to the Gestalt perspective and the new global-Universal thinking of the 6th century BCE.

Frank
 

ctoz

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This article from 2014 by Bent Nielsen
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1540-6253.12086/pdf
looks at Schuyler Cammann's work in some detail.
 

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