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Former Heaven and Later Heaven Origin

Sparhawk

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You say this as if it is a fact, and yet you can not truly know this... ever!

The fact that the distances do play a role to a degree that can hardly be put down to coincidence suggests that they were aware of the order of planets by closeness to the Sun, whether they thought of them as lights, deities, gems, whatever... it doesn't matter. The correlations exist, and they profoundly connect with the Lo Shu, Taiji, and Wu Xing to bring about the two trigram arrangments. And that is demonstrable as a fact.

i-want-to-believe.jpg


The above statement reminded me of Agent Mulder in the X Files... It smacks of denial of over 2000 years of accumulated information. Does "geocentricism" means anything to you?

Have it you way though. Just don't expect me to take your conclusions seriously (not that it matters, mind you...) until you put all the ingredients in the pot, including the recorded Chinese knowledge of astronomy about the time the trigram circles were conceived.

Cheers,
 

lienshan

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It is the Later Heaven and the KWS which is hard to explain using the same assumptions and premises as the Earlier Heaven.
hi Frank

The Later Heaven is easy to explain: It consist of two small circles.
The south southwest (upper) circle is made of 4 female trigrams.
The north northeast (lower) circle is made of 4 male trigrams.

Try consider the sparhawk suggestion, that it's related to the Ho Tu diagram in this layout (page 7):

http://www.healingtaousa.com/pdf/iching_music.pdf

The Ho Tu diagram contains the numbers 1 to 10 just like your pythagorean pyramid scheme ;)

lienshan
 

solun

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Something tells me the Chinese had to have been fairly advanced astronomically. Their lore and knowledge of fixed stars and constellations are some of the oldest astrological/astronomical references available attesting to it.. Check out Frances Rollestons Mazzaroth. http://philologos.org/__eb-mazzaroth/203.htm It has been discovered that they were a lot more advanced in mechanicns and engineering than we had previously thought. So, the tools were there definitely. But, as Sparhawk refered to, I don't know the story of how long ago, nor perhaps does anyone, of the I ching or astronomy in China.

If Sparhawk wants to believe:
As an aside, one thing I found very intriguing were these Chinese lava glass like receptacle like objects, can't recall the name just now, that look exactly like the underwater smokestack vents at the bottom of the Marianas trench. ? How'd that get there? x-files or no, it's a strange coincidence, and I have no idea what it means.

Found it!
The object is a 'Beaker' from Shandong, Neolithic period, Longshan culture @ 2000 BC 6.25" high make of thin biscuit black pottery. Looks just like an underwater volcanic smoker. Very wierd.
 
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frank_r

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Hello Luis,

About theories they can be invented long ago but some new insights that are more fundamental can be found much later. Like the 12 normal meridians where found first by the Chinese but the extra ordinary meridians are more fundamental, but they are found later.
The same with our DNA this was discovered in 1954, but it has been always there.

So sometimes a theorie is invented but in later times people find why because they have more knowledge. Before it was a intuitive idea, and with more knowledge this theorie is also accepted by science. So it is not always necessary to go back in time to understand the theorie.

So when a theorie is working, it is working. We have an axpression about that: Many roads lead to Rome.

Frank
 

Sparhawk

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If Sparhawk wants to believe:

Nope, Erime is the one that wants to believe, hence the graphic.

Now, like I said before, I'm not saying his theory doesn't fit the model of the KWS. What I'm saying is that it cannot be based on knowledge that didn't exist at the time the trigram circles were conceived. They didn't have knowledge of planetary distances from the Sun because their astronomy was geocentric: celestial bodies circulated in the heavens, could be tracked, their times could be recorded, but Earth was the center. Erime's theory was made to fit an astronomical model inexistent at that historical time. It doesn't mean it cannot fit nicely, more than two thousand years later; it means that the fitting, if it is such, was unintended by those that created the received trigram circles.

For all intend and purposes, ancient Chinese astronomy was centuries ahead of their contemporary civilizations. However, it wasn't as advanced as some may wish it had.
 

Sparhawk

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Hi Frank,

So sometimes a theorie is invented but in later times people find why because they have more knowledge. Before it was a intuitive idea, and with more knowledge this theorie is also accepted by science. So it is not always necessary to go back in time to understand the theorie.

So when a theorie is working, it is working. We have an axpression about that: Many roads lead to Rome.

Frank

Something must be lost in the translation here. Either in mine (just as in your case, English is my second language...) or yours. Again, I'm not saying Erime's theory doesn't work. I'm saying, I'm kindly asking, that it not be framed as the original intention of the sages that invented the trigram circles, if the theory attributes them knowledge they didn't have. That's all.
 

Sparhawk

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Found it!
The object is a 'Beaker' from Shandong, Neolithic period, Longshan culture @ 2000 BC 6.25" high make of thin biscuit black pottery. Looks just like an underwater volcanic smoker. Very wierd.

Hi Solun,

Do you have link to it? I have a number of books and articles on the Longshan and Liangzhu cultures. I'd like to know if it is in one of them.

Thanks,
 

erime

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until you put all the ingredients in the pot, including the recorded Chinese knowledge of astronomy about the time the trigram circles were conceived

So lets look at this statement in context:

1) Not all knowledge is recorded
2) That knowledge which is recorded is by no means the only extant understanding of the subject
3) Even during the time of Buddha c.400 BC oral traditions were very popular, and a lot of information, especially the deepest secrets, were normally reserved for oral transmission from Master to the top student.

Your argument lacks integrity here Sparhawk.

What I'm saying is that it cannot be based on knowledge that didn't exist at the time the trigram circles were conceived.
Just because it isn't in your library doesn't mean it never existed. You say "knowledge that didn't exist at he time" as if this is some fact - it would probably be realistic to say that most of the knowledge in the world during those times has not been recorded in words.

Look at Buddhism or Christianity - are all the oldest written documents on these traditions accurate representations of those ideas? The Roman Catholics burnt the Gnostic texts that Valentinus studied (allegedly as a student of a disciple of Paul) as heretical sources, while the Theravada and Vajrayana Buddhists incorporated mystical undemonstrable notions in to their practices which allowed for claims to spiritual inheritances to be made via reincarnation, even though the Buddha disagreed with such notions supported by Brahmin castes, and the caste system in general.

Those who could write and store texts tended to be politically powerful and subject to the desire to pychosocially control the masses. I don't think a Taoist sage would necessarily agree with imparting a powerful system or knowledge to such people, as this would be irresponsible. It would have had the potential to create 'Darth Vaders' of sorts.

Looking at the general picture; were there a variety of schools of thought and philosophy around at those times? Yes. Were they all written down? No. Could there have been an alternative theory to geocentrism, or even a direct understanding that refuted it? Yes.

So why narrow one's views un-necessarily?

What I'm saying is that it cannot be based on knowledge that didn't exist at the time the trigram circles were conceived.

Geocentrism doesn't rule out ideas about distances from the Sun - all objects have relative distances no matter what one considers the centre of rotation. I wasn't suggesting that the ancient Chinese were aware of rotation around the Sun, just that they were aware of relative distances from the Sun (which is closest, furthest, etc.). When all the planets are lined up, we can consider closest planets to Saturn, or the Earth; the relative distances are still present. Rotation around what thing is irrelevant to my theory.

The Sun would have been seen as the Pure Yang astral object; which gave it it's significance, and the Moon would have been seen as Pure Yin. The other bodies would have been looked at within those qualitative extremes via their proximities and behaviours relative to the Mansions of constellations. Saturn; the furthest object from the Sun and the Earth; marking the spatial boundary of the system, would represent the Earth Element - that which contains all the other Elements and holds them all together. It seems nothing more is necessary really.
 
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Sparhawk

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Well, I did say this to you, a week ago, when you commented on a thread that wasn't related to your theory. I had good reasons not to participate as I don't enjoy bursting other people's balloons, just for the sake of it. You kind of summoned my opinion...

So lets look at this statement in context:

1) Not all knowledge is recorded
2) That knowledge which is recorded is by no means the only extant understanding of the subject
3) Even during the time of Buddha c.400 BC oral traditions were very popular, and a lot of information, especially the deepest secrets, were normally reserved for oral transmission from Master to the top student.

Your argument lacks integrity here Sparhawk.


Just because it isn't in your library doesn't mean it never existed. You say "knowledge that didn't exist at he time" as if this is some fact - it would probably be realistic to say that most of the knowledge in the world during those times has not been recorded in words.

Are you serious? You say my argument lacks integrity because I refer to what's concretely out in the field while you hang your theory on the remote possibility that specific knowledge, in the very specific field of astronomy, was relegated to hidden oral traditions?
 

erime

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you hang your theory on the remote possibility that specific knowledge, in the very specific field of astronomy, was relegated to hidden oral traditions?
No, my theory 'hangs' on mathematical facts that could have been known in ancient China via secret techniques that may be lost today, or theorised and incorporated in to existing models. There could have been other more immediate results indicating the value of such a theory (successful predictions of the heavens, etc., based upon relative distances of the main visible astral bodies).

Even if my theory is only a contemporary one, the fact is it works, and therefore we have a scientific rooting for the Later Heaven sequence. This is significant enough for me.
 

Sparhawk

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Even if my theory is only a contemporary one, the fact is it works, and therefore we have a scientific rooting for the Later Heaven sequence. This is significant enough for me.

Thank you. :bows:
 

solun

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Hi Solun,

Do you have link to it? I have a number of books and articles on the Longshan and Liangzhu cultures. I'd like to know if it is in one of them.

Thanks,

Hi there,
it's in a book of mine from a class I took a long time ago:
A History of Far Eastern Art Sherman E. Lee - Fourth Ed.
Ch. 1 Urban Civilization and the Indus Valley; Neolithic and Pre-Shang China; Ban Chieng Culture.

It's just such a strange shape. The section in Neolithic and Pre-Shang starts out "Till recently the Xia and Shang dynasties were considered mythical, but continuing excavations ..."
I don't know why I even brought it up, but when I saw David Attenborough on tele going into the trench in a submersible, they showed these vents and a jolt went through me, how familiar it looked. It's surely coincidental. But it alwaays intrigued me for some reason.
 
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solun

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Here's more:
from the S.E.Lee book

about Neolithic culture on Chengziyai plains - Longshan culture -

"another [attribute] is the use of a very thin, black pottery. It is perhaps the finest Neolithic pottery made, so thin it reminds one of 'egg-shell' porcelain despite the fact that it is earthenware. The elegant shapes seem characteristic of Longshan culture. A third attribute is the practice of divination by means of a crack pattern produced by the application of a hot point to scraped bone. Though the latter Shang peoples substituted the underside, or plastron, of a tortoise for the bone, their purpose was the same: consultation with ancestors by divination. This is a most important link between the longshan and the later Shang dynastic cultures."
 

Sparhawk

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Hi Solun,

The section in Neolithic and Pre-Shang starts out "Till recently the Xia and Shang dynasties were considered mythical, but continuing excavations ..."

Oh my, that's a blast from the past!!! :D

I love to study the Neolithic cultures of China, BTW. Many people hang on to the idea that polarity/duality started with with the taxonomic concept of yin/yang. Not so, really. The ancient Chinese were carving dualistic motifs in jades and decorating pottery, thousands of years before someone thought of calling them that.

Thanks for the reference.
 

lienshan

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Oh my, that's a blast from the past!!! :D

xin_8fe264ba07ce4b2295f01b779c02ff60_3.jpg

These 24 signs found in the Xia-dynasty capitol Erlitou are my favourite "blast" reference:

The signs 1, 8, 15, 17 and 18 are similar to the numbers 1, 5, 6, 7 and 8 found on Western Zhou
bronzeware, bones, turtleshells and ceramics in digits of six signs ... that'll say the pre-hexagrams
according to the theory of Chang Sheng Lang.

Four of such six digits pre-hexagrams found on an early Western Zhou pottery-pat are similar to the
hexagrams 7-8-9-10 in the order of King Wen hexagram sequence. It's in my opinion very hard to
believe, that the royal court divination manual, the Zhouyi, was known among common potters?

This found indicates, that the origin of the King Wen sequence dates back in pre-history (Xia-history).
Could the shamans (the nobles found in Erlitou were dressed like shamans) determine the distance
between the planets about 3700 years ago?

lienshan
 

Sparhawk

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Hi Lienshan,

xin_8fe264ba07ce4b2295f01b779c02ff60_3.jpg

These 24 signs found in the Xia-dynasty capitol Erlitou are my favourite "blast" reference:

Sorry to keep bringing this guy up in conversation but he's one of the first, and very few, Westerners that seriously delved on these issues and wrote about it when most everybody else was getting high and tossing coins in "love-me/love-me-not" questions.

It is a small excerpt but I think is on topic. Here is something for you to ponder. When this was written, I believe the symbols in your picture had not been found yet, however, I think they might refer to calendrical names and calculations. The diagrams he refers to are the Lo Shu and Ho Tu.

diamondplan.gif



It has been suggested that both diagrams have been derived from a
larger cosmic diagram of thirteen digits, which was probably known to
the people of the Shang dynasty (ca. 1500-1027 B.c.),as shown in
figure 2 A.

The heart or core of this diamond-shaped plan was the foundation
for the whole diagram. Whoever first devised it merely took the
sequence of numbers from 1 to 9, and set them out in a reversed S
pattern, seeking to create a balanced opposition of the numbers above
5 with those below it, on either side of the 5 at the center. Note that
this numbering proceeds downward clockwise on the right side, then
passes diagonally up through the center, and continues downward
counterclockwise on the left.

It seems probable that the numbers at the corners of this basic square
were repeated to form the ends of the adjacent crossbars-which
would have represented the four cardinal directions of space-so that
each arm of the central cross would consist of an odd number and an
even one. These contrasting pairs would then have symbolically conveyed
the idea that two principal forces-.probably considered as male
and female, et cetera, like the later yang and yin, with all the extended
complementary connotations-were working together throughout the
universe.

Another result of that repetition of the corner numbers from the
square was that the numbers in the central column of the cross and
those on its center row each totaled 25; while all the numbers in the X
upon the basic cross, formed by the two main diagonals, also added up
to. This repeated appearance of the significant 5 X 5 would have
held a special importance for people who were accustomed to calculating
on base 5.)' Also, the sum of every pair of numbers in the diagram
equidistant from the central 5-on a line through that 5-would halve
to 5. Thus, the echoes of the number 5, which occupied the center,
provided an underlying unity for the whole plan.

The seemingly magical repetition of the significant 5 would have
been almost enough in itself for the people of early historical China to
consider this diagram as important, perhaps even sacred; but it also
had a practical use that would have greatly enhanced its value for
them. We shall see that the whole plan was essentially a diagram by
means of which they could express their concepts of space and time.
We have already noted that the four points on the Diamond Plan
probably indicated the four cardinal directions, and, by extension, they
doubtless also referred to the four seasons, as they did in later Chinese
space-time diagrams.)' Moreover, the Chinese not only stressed the
importance of Center as the fifth direction; like other Asian peoples,
they also conceived of an invisible column or pole as the axis pillar of
the universe, piercing through the center of the earth, to connect the
underworld with heaven beyond the sky. So the focal point on the
diagram which contained the esteemed 5 must have been especially
revered.

Furthermore, the thirteen numbers in the diagram could have recalled
the Shang year of thirteen months-the usual twelve, with an
intercalary one. Then, if we set aside for a moment the very significant
5, all the other numbers added together would produce the sum of
60-the number of days in the sexagesimal cycle of two lunations that
formed the basis for Shang calendar reckoning, as attested by the
inscriptions on the oracle bones. Multiplying this 60 by the 6 at the
top of the diagram gives 360-an approximation of the days in a solar
year, and a familiar early calculation for the year cycle. As people
became more sophisticated and made stricter observations, they could
have added to this the omitted 5, to mark a full year count of 365 days.
Coming down into the center block, 2 X 5 X 6 again gives us the
valued calendrical number 60; 7+5+3 (or simply 5 X 3) could recall
a fifteen-day period called ch'i, twenty-four of which made up an
annual cycle already recognized in the Shang and either 2+4+4
(the numbers along the lower right edge of the diagram)-or, more
simply, 2 X 5-gives 10, the number of days in one Shang week, traces
of which still survived in the ten-day market cycles of central and
southwest China as late as the 1930s. Meanwhile, 6 X 2 would give
12, the number of double-hours in a Chinese day.

Then 7 X 5 X 8 gives 280, the 280 days or "nine months" of the birth
cycle (or cycle of human gestation); while 4 X 5 4- 8 gives 28-the
number of days in a lunar month, or the women's menstrual cycle.
These latter calculations were primary considerations in human timereckoning
as far back as the Stone Age, and the Shang realm was at
least partially a matriarchal states.

Lastly, all the numbers in the diagram add to 65, and multiplying
this total by the 9 at the bottom produces 585, the approximate
number of days in the synodic or phase period of Venus, which-as the
third brightest object in the sky-early attracted the attention of
mankind.

Even these possible calculations may not have exhausted all the
possibilities for noting celestial phenomena or the time spans between
significant rituals.

Although the Diamond Plan was not in itself a real calendar, it
could have served as a reminder of the significant numbers in the
calendrical calculations of the Old Chinese, which were largely based
on astronomy. Since astronomy was the secret science of the ancient
priest-kings of China, and the making of the calendar was their special
duty and privilege, a diagram like this would have been regarded as a
highly secret thing. Perhaps it was never publicly displayed, lest some
unauthorized person might try to misuse it to usurp kingly powers; but
it could have been inscribed on cloth or leather, or carved on jade, as
part of the royal regalia to be passed down from one king to the next.
They would not have been likely to place an example in a tomb where
robbers could find it; but even if they did, the Shang royal tombs at
Anyang have been looted, so it is not likely that archaeologists will
ever recover one.

Some Early Chinese Symbols of Duality
Schuyler Cammann
History of Religions, Vol. 24, No. 3. (Feb., 1985), pp. 215-254.​
 

erime

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I've created a Flash animation illustrating my process - it's a bit quick, but it is intended to indicate the method in general.

You can download it here: http://www.datafilehost.com/download-16068450.html
(for future ref. - if it is not downloaded with 30 days it will be deleted).

You will need Flash Player to watch it.

Hope it illustrates my theory a bit better.
 

Sparhawk

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Wow! I may have some misgivings about your theory but that was a great and very creative effort. Well done!
 

solun

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I'm looking at a jade zong form the middle zhou, @ 900-600 bce in my same old Sherman Lee book. It's 8 1/2 in high, a tube being described in Chinese texts as a symbol of the earth. It has 8 rectangles going up each side. With a little imagination, and only a little, the 4 and 5 positions are clearly in the middle and equal 9 and occupy a central position on the object I can't see or tell if there are any markings on each rectanglee, but at closer inspection I would guess that there were or are - it's at the Freer Gallery in DC (acc to this book 1982)
The counter part is the bi ring, a symbol of heaven which is a large disk with hole in center one third the diameter.

Also, I found from the late neolithic an earthenware Li tripod. The construction of the three inflated feet at the base was intended to concentrate the heat of the fire onto the contents inside. Thought this was an interesting object. It is one design that was carried over well into the Shang period. But I'm guessing that the use of bronze dings may have usurped this design - ?

Very interesting reading you guys. I'm a light years behind you, but enjoy looking at the artifacts nonetheless.

Sally
 

erime

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Heh, thanks. I don't know how to take compliments from you now Sparhawk.

I am considering adding sound effects to it - will help the person watching to focus on the key processes, as there is a lot of stuff flying around on the screen.

I hope that you can see now how rooted in demonstrable, universal procedure my theory is. No interpretations, just working with the raw data according to the ancient objective systems.
 

solun

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Hi Solun,



Oh my, that's a blast from the past!!! :D

I love to study the Neolithic cultures of China, BTW. Many people hang on to the idea that polarity/duality started with with the taxonomic concept of yin/yang. Not so, really. The ancient Chinese were carving dualistic motifs in jades and decorating pottery, thousands of years before someone thought of calling them that.

Thanks for the reference.

I'm seeing evidence of it on a painted red earthenware bowl from Yangshao culture @ 4000 bc
 

Sparhawk

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:D

Heh, thanks. I don't know how to take compliments from you now Sparhawk.

Well, that's up to you, of course, but I'll always be sincere and authentic in my remarks. I've no hidden agenda. Like I said, I may have some concerns about some of your theory's premises but that doesn't discount the thoughtful effort put in it and the creativity demonstrated in you Flash presentation.
 

solun

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Here's a jumble of thoughts:

4 was the half point, and is an earthly number, 5 beyond it, so 4 and 5 together were heaven and earth
maybe the motive of direction is what Merlewine was looking for with respect to former and latter?

I also thought that the 5th season was related to the element of wood called doyo -between winter and spring ?

"The seemingly magical repetition of the significant 5 would have
been almost enough in itself for the people of early historical China to
consider this diagram as important, perhaps even sacred; but it also
had a practical use that would have greatly enhanced its value for
them. We shall see that the whole plan was essentially a diagram by
means of which they could express their concepts of space and time.
We have already noted that the four points on the Diamond Plan
probably indicated the four cardinal directions, and, by extension, they
doubtless also referred to the four seasons, as they did in later Chinese
space-time diagrams.)' Moreover, the Chinese not only stressed the
importance of Center as the fifth direction; like other Asian peoples,
they also conceived of an invisible column or pole as the axis pillar of
the universe, piercing through the center of the earth, to connect the
underworld with heaven beyond the sky. So the focal point on the
diagram which contained the esteemed 5 must have been especially
revered. - sparhawk
 
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solun

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30. Li / The Clinging, Fire

above LI THE CLINGING, FIRE
below LI THE CLINGING, FIRE

This hexagram is another double sign. The trigram Li means "to cling to
something," and also "brightness." A dark line clings to two light lines, one
above and one below--the image of an empty space between two strong lines,
whereby the two strong lines are made bright. The trigram represents the
middle daughter. The Creative has incorporated the central line of the
Receptive, and thus Li develops. As an image, it is fire. Fire has no definite
form but clings to the burning object and thus is bright. As water pours down
from heaven, so fire flames up from the earth. While K'an means the soul
shut within the body, Li stands for nature in its radiance.

THE JUDGMENT

THE CLINGING. Perseverance furthers.
It brings success.
Care of the cow brings good fortune.

What is dark clings to what is light and so enhances the brightness of the
latter. A luminous thing giving out light must have within itself something
that perseveres; otherwise it will in time burn itself out. Everything that gives
light is dependent on something to which it clings, in order that it may
continue to shine.
Thus the sun and moon cling to heaven, and grain, grass, and trees cling to
the earth. So too the twofold clarity of the dedicated man clings to what is
right and thereby can shape the world. Human life on earth is conditioned
and unfree, and when man recognizes this limitation and makes himself
dependent upon the harmonious and beneficent forces of the cosmos, he
achieves success. The cow is the symbol of extreme docility. By cultivating in
himself an attitude of compliance and voluntary dependence, man acquires
clarity without sharpness and finds his place in the world.

THE IMAGE

That which is bright rises twice:
The image of FIRE.
Thus the great man, by perpetuating this brightness,
Illumines the four quarters of the world.

Each of the two trigrams represents the sun in the course of a day. The two
together represent the repeated movement of the sun, the function of light
with respect to time. The great man continues the work of nature in the
human world. Through the clarity of his nature he causes the light to spread
farther and farther and to penetrate the nature of man ever more deeply.




Nine in the fourth place means:
Its coming is sudden;
It flames up, dies down, is thrown away.

Clarity of mind has the same relation to life that fire has to wood. Fire clings
to wood, but also consumes it. Clarity of mind is rooted in life but can also
consume it. Everything depends upon how the clarity functions. Here the
image used is that of a meteor or a straw fire. A man who is excitable and
restless may rise quickly to prominence but produces no lasting effects. Thus
matters end badly when a man spends himself too rapidly and consumes
himself like a meteor.

° Six in the fifth place means:
Tears in floods, sighing and lamenting.
Good fortune.

Here the zenith of life has been reached. Were there no warning, one would
at this point consume oneself like a flame. Instead, understanding the vanity
of all things, one may put aside both hope and fear, and sigh and lament: if
one is intent on retaining his clarity of mind, good fortune will come from
this grief. For here we are dealing not with a passing mood, as in the nine in
the third place, but with a real change of heart.

Wilhelm
 

fkegan

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Hi All,

I seem to have missed a few posts, but I have been intrigued by local US politics of late. I am reminded of H.L.Mencken's remark that no one has ever lost an election by underestimating the intelligence of the American voter.

The question of both Ermine and Lienshan arguments has to do with the vital importance of trigrams and trigram diagrams. I prefer the notion that the Chou innovation was to change from trigrams and number correspondences to gua gestalten which had meaning from their line structure under the same principles if the gua were three lines or six lines. This view sees the line patterns and the hex numbering of the KWS as novel, insightful and independent of any earlier simple number patterns or trigram arrangements.

Arguments about how trigram diagrams or numbering can be applied to Later Heaven or KWS aren't relevant unless you believe only trigrams are fundamental. If they are then what was the innovation of the Chou Yi which drove the earlier Shang divination from general use. How did this new innovation arise from just an adjustment of he tumblers of an earlier trigram sequence or magic square arrangement? For Erime the magic square arrangement and the planetary correspondences to those simple numbers are the essence from which all else flows? Why?

The argument about relative distance of planets from the sun, a clearly modern helio-centric notion is easier on those of us steeped in ancient cosmology if it is restated as observed relative daily motion. The results are the same since in concentric circles or ellipses relative distance in space correlates to mean daily motion in time.

I noticed the magic square with the central 5 is being made much of here. I remember a biographical note about a Swiss math genius who in elementary school when asked to sum a the numbers 1 to 100 returned the answer that they formed pairs. In terms of numbers 1 through 10 it becomes 1+9= 2+8=3+7=6+4=10 with 5 being left odd man out. Thus any combination of these pairs with 5 at center makes a "magic square" of 15 which is the sum of the digits 1 through 9.

More interesting is the difference between the circle number patterns ermine shows. The Earlier one has numbers in sequence 1 to 4 then moves through central 5 and moves the other direction 6 through 9 forming a taiji or sine wave pattern. The later one has the pairs as pairs placed vertical, diagonal then horizontal and another diagonal.

That the two trigram sequences can be generated by twisting the dial so to speak in parallel ways is proof of underlying original intent ONLY if one assumes a trigram wheel is the fundamental concept and all else follows from it. If one rather notes this is all very modern (not postmodern or contemporary) thinking in light of the Rubik's Cube fad there is less excitement about the discovery.

Personally, I can not find much interest in trigram sequences as primary, not even the sophisticated work of S.C. or diagrams from ancient artifacts. Developing everything from the oldest sources in a smooth curve or linear progression ignores the quantum jumps in history of technology where new discoveries, totally different from ANY earlier work erupt into human consciousness. That generation and the next have a clear understanding of the novel insight and then the body of work remains but the only understanding retreats to ritual technique and magical thinking that enables use of say the new Chou Yi oracle, but returns to more traditional trigram diagrams and magic squares to explain why.

Correspondence of various techniques, like Pythagorean Tetraktys and KWS are intriguing. Claims that your favorite correspondence is what King Wen really had in mind are more difficult. In my own work, I assume a common source in the concrete observation of the Water Cycle and the weather and similar cycles and patterns in human experience (the essential origin of astrology as well with Sun position correlating to seasons and thus water cycle).

Similarly, a common origin in philosophical perspectives-- seen in the Taiji symbol with one outer circle containing all. Two major swirls dividing all into two contrasting parts. Three stages of process or development--the eyes, the swirls, and the whole taiji. And also the 4-fold double dichotomy of white eye in black swirl and black eye in white swirl.

Overall, there are two results of each of our personal discoveries through our individual researches based upon our personal perspectives. The first is the nifty-ness of finding what most pleases us to have found to demonstrate our perspective and our cleverness. The second is how this discovery unfolds and explains things we had not even imagined before. In light of this, what do you get by explaining Later Heaven or KWS by trigram sequences of any kind? Does it give a new dimension of insight to the meaning of the hexagrams? Or just enable you to say the riddle of the Later Heaven or KWS has been solved by applying my favorite principles in my favorite way?

Frank Kegan
 

solun

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Hi Frank,
I don't think there are as many who will watch the debates as must needs be. Most think politicians will say anything, which is true, or they will vote on one or two very subjective, simplistic and lazy reasons. God help us.


But to the thread:
"Arguments about how trigram diagrams or numbering can be applied to Later Heaven or KWS aren't relevant unless you believe only trigrams are fundamental." - Frank

I think it's more about them being elemental, rather than fundamental perhaps.

"Overall, there are two results of each of our personal discoveries through our individual researches based upon our personal perspectives. The first is the nifty-ness of finding what most pleases us to have found to demonstrate our perspective and our cleverness. The second is how this discovery unfolds and explains things we had not even imagined before. In light of this, what do you get by explaining Later Heaven or KWS by trigram sequences of any kind? Does it give a new dimension of insight to the meaning of the hexagrams? Or just enable you to say the riddle of the Later Heaven or KWS has been solved by applying my favorite principles in my favorite way?" - Frank

I think if we are limited to two perspectives, both being yours, I would agree with the latter. We are involved in a process of discovery as inspired by merlewines original question. Probably the reason we do this, and I say this realizing that the others here are far more knowledgeable than I, is that we enjoy this process of discovery - the investigating, the the sharing of thoughts, ideas, which inspire and enrich our understanding we hope.

"That generation and the next have a clear understanding of the novel insight and then the body of work remains but the only understanding retreats to ritual technique and magical thinking that enables use of say the new Chou Yi oracle, but returns to more traditional trigram diagrams and magic squares to explain why."
- Frank

Interesting and good point. But I don't see that there is anything wrong with that. In fact, it's quite natural, in keeping with the tradition of consulting with the ancestors. Also, the use of diagrams or artifacts is representational, and said use not in and of itself representative of the thought processes which have assembled them for discussion. ;):)
 
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solun

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BTW, McCain did better than I thought he would. I think Obama did well holding his own and firing back.
 

lienshan

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"Arguments about how trigram diagrams or numbering can be applied to Later Heaven or KWS aren't relevant unless you believe only trigrams are fundamental." - Frank

I think it's more about them being elemental, rather than fundamental perhaps.
The reason why I think that trigrams are fundamental as the building blocks of hexagrams is the layout of tortoise divination records. Each T-crack is an image and they are placed opposite each other in pairs with the horisontal bar of the T's pointing out and with the vertical stroke of the T's pointing in. That'll say, that two mirrored T-cracks on a plastron are similar to one hexagram.

This explains, why the professionel diviners in Zhouzuan read hexagrams as two images, because they looked at a trigram in exactly the same way as they looked at a T-crack on tortoise plastrons.

lienshan
 

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