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Former Heaven and Later Heaven Origin
- Thread starter merlewine
- Start date
Sorry, but somehow the only person whose posts I can fully understand seems to be the original poster of this thread, Michael Erlewine (but not the Marxist article at his website!).
For example, in the Later Heaven sequence, 1 and 8 are next to each other, (2 and 7, 3 and 6???, 4 and 5, etc. What is the 1-8 axis, etc.? And, aren't these numbers from the Lo Shu Magic Square, not from the Later Heaven Bagua arrangement?
For example, in the Later Heaven sequence, 1 and 8 are next to each other, (2 and 7, 3 and 6???, 4 and 5, etc. What is the 1-8 axis, etc.? And, aren't these numbers from the Lo Shu Magic Square, not from the Later Heaven Bagua arrangement?
lienshan
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hi sparhawk ... maybe that's why everybody fail to explain the Later Heaven?
To me the Later Heaven trigram order looks like a double spiral. "In many old cultures the spiral was a symbol of the primordial waters, the upper ones represented the formless potentiality, the lower ones the potential of form. Together the full potential of manifestation." (quote LiSe's Yi hex 2)
The upper ones in the Later Heaven are clockwise from inside out Earth, Lake, Wind, Fire.
Shuo Kua Chapter two:
Heaven and Earth determine the direction.
The forces of Mountain and Lake are united.
Thunder and Wind arouse each other.
Water and Fire do not combat each other.
Thus are the eight trigrams intermingled.
The upper ones are too clockwise from inside out Earth (2 steps), Lake (3 steps), Fire (4 steps), Wind (1 step) that'll say the family order of the Mawangdui silk trigram sequence.
Shuo Kua Chapter two continued:
Counting that which is going into the past depends on the forward movement.
Knowing that which is to come depends on the backward movement
This is why the Book of Changes has backward moving numbers.
The lower ones are counterclockwise from outside in Heaven, Mountain, Thunder, Water.
Heaven and Earth determine the direction.
The forces of Mountain and Lake are united.
Thunder and Wind arouse each other.
Water and Fire do not combat each other.
Thus are the eight trigrams intermingled.
The lower ones are too counterclockwise from outside in Heaven (2 steps), Mountain (1 step), Water (4 steps), Thunder (3 steps) that'll say the family order of the Mawangdui silk trigram sequence.
(the steps are the distance between two complementary trigrams in Later Heaven)
lienshan
lienshan
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hi getojack
Your calculations produce Cammann's family system b when counted 9-8-7-6 and 1-2-3-4
Former Heaven: ........ getojack's Later Heaven:
4 - 9 - 2 .................. 2 - 3 - 1
3 - 5 - 7 .................. 8 - 5 - 4
8 - 1 - 6 .................. 6 - 7 - 9
But Cammann's family system c (Mawangdui sequence) when counted 9-6-7-8 and 1-4-3-2
lienshan
Sorry, the Marxist article that I wrongly attributed to Michael Erlewine was actually mentioned by Light Of Reason.
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Chris Lofting is many things, Marxist ain't one of them... My favorite moniker for him is Mr. Spock.
Strange, but may I respectfully point out that the upper three trigrams in the Lower Heaven diagram should be clockwise Xun-Li-Kun (Wind-Fire-Earth) and the lower three trigrams should be clockwise Qian-Ken-Gen (Heaven-Water-Mountain). These two sets of sequences are not exactly the same as any sequence of three consecutive trigrams out of the four trigrams found in the lower or upper sets of 4 trigrams (which I have taken the liberty to highlight in red) mentioned in your post.
hi sparhawk ... maybe that's why everybody fail to explain the Later Heaven?
To me the Later Heaven trigram order looks like a double spiral. "In many old cultures the spiral was a symbol of the primordial waters, the upper ones represented the formless potentiality, the lower ones the potential of form. Together the full potential of manifestation." (quote LiSe's Yi hex 2)
The upper ones in the Later Heaven are clockwise from inside out Earth, Lake, Wind, Fire.
Shuo Kua Chapter two:
Heaven and Earth determine the direction.
The forces of Mountain and Lake are united.
Thunder and Wind arouse each other.
Water and Fire do not combat each other.
Thus are the eight trigrams intermingled.
The upper ones are too clockwise from inside out Earth (2 steps), Lake (3 steps), Fire (4 steps), Wind (1 step) that'll say the family order of the Mawangdui silk trigram sequence.
Shuo Kua Chapter two continued:
Counting that which is going into the past depends on the forward movement.
Knowing that which is to come depends on the backward movement
This is why the Book of Changes has backward moving numbers.
The lower ones are counterclockwise from outside in Heaven, Mountain, Thunder, Water.
Heaven and Earth determine the direction.
The forces of Mountain and Lake are united.
Thunder and Wind arouse each other.
Water and Fire do not combat each other.
Thus are the eight trigrams intermingled.
The lower ones are too counterclockwise from outside in Heaven (2 steps), Mountain (1 step), Water (4 steps), Thunder (3 steps) that'll say the family order of the Mawangdui silk trigram sequence.
(the steps are the distance between two complementary trigrams in Later Heaven)
lienshan
getojack
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Following up on this analysis a little further...
In the Later Heaven Bagua...
Thunder is one apart clockwise from its opposite, Wind...
...and Thunder is also one apart counterclockwise from its inverse, Mountain.
Earth is two apart clockwise from its opposite, Heaven.
Heaven is two apart counterclockwise from its opposite, Earth.
Lake is three apart clockwise from its opposite, Mountain...
...and Lake is also three apart counterclockwise from its inverse, Wind.
Fire is four apart clockwise from its opposite, Water.
Water is four apart counterclockwise from its opposite, Fire.
In the Later Heaven Bagua...
Thunder is one apart clockwise from its opposite, Wind...
...and Thunder is also one apart counterclockwise from its inverse, Mountain.
Earth is two apart clockwise from its opposite, Heaven.
Heaven is two apart counterclockwise from its opposite, Earth.
Lake is three apart clockwise from its opposite, Mountain...
...and Lake is also three apart counterclockwise from its inverse, Wind.
Fire is four apart clockwise from its opposite, Water.
Water is four apart counterclockwise from its opposite, Fire.
lienshan
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hi laotzu
My point of view is, that the Later Heaven looks like a double spiral of two trigram-family circles.
I contemplate the upper circle of the spiral from the inside out counting clockwise:
The upper circle: Wind, Fire, Earth, Lake, Wind, Fire, Earth, Lake, Wind, Fire, Earth, Lake, etc.
Wind (1 step), Earth (2 steps), Lake (3 steps), Fire (4 steps), Wind (1 step), Earth (2 steps), etc.
I contemplate the lower circle of the spiral from the outside in counting counterclockwise:
The lower circle: Heaven, Mountain, Thunder, Water, Heaven, Mountain, Thunder, Water, etc.
Water (4 steps), Thunder (3 steps), Heaven (2 steps), Mountain (1 step), Water (4 steps), etc.
The "neighbor" order is like the order of trigrams described in Shuo Kua (8th wing chapter two).
The "steps" order is like the Mawangdui silk Yi order of trigrams.
When I put in the magic square numbers using getojack's calculations, then the upper circle of the spiral consists of the low numbers 1-2-3-4 while the lower circle of the spiral consists of the high numbers 9-8-7-6
By the way: Schuyler Cammann’s theory is briefly described in part III (page 26 to 36) in this link:
http://www.usgo.org/resources/downloads/originsapdxIII.pdf
lienshan
May he live long and prosper. :bows:
Chris Lofting is many things, Marxist ain't one of them... My favorite moniker for him is Mr. Spock.
fkegan
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What caused Later Heaven to change from Earlier Heaven patterns?
Hi Lienshan and laotzu,
I enjoyed the reference and quote from it above, though I found in it a very different slant upon this discussion. If one takes from the quote that the Shang were more sophisticated in their number diagrams, and the Chou more interested in different symbolism one sees the outline of the Later Heaven being based not in number diagrams but in gestalt symbolism.
The difference between seeing the lines of a trigram in terms of even or odd numbers or Yang and Yin becomes clear from the difference with pairs. With Even/Odd number arrangements, any set of three must have a pair of the same type which will always add to an even number. However, by Yang/Yin each trigram must have at least a pair of one type of line though that pair can be either Yang or Yin and remain Yang or Yin.
The third line, not the pair determines the overall value for the trigram. In terms of odd/even this follows by the pair always adding to an even number. In the gestalt symbolism, the pair—either Yang or Yin—forms the background upon which the third line forms the image.
It is a small difference from the number theory to the gestalt symbolism, but it is the portal to the totally different Later Heaven arrangement which isn’t grounded in numbers at all. Instead it is based upon concepts. The primary 4 trigrams upon the perpendicular bisectors mark off the concepts of beginning (chen)/completing (Tui) horizontally; against light (Li) and dark depth (K’an).
The other four clearly indicate this arrangement is by meaning not number theory. The pair of Sun and Ch’ien are Wind and Sunshine— kinetic energy images. The pair of Ken and K’un are potentials: mountain height and topographical depth. It is the mediation of Sun wind (weather systems) that turns solar light Li into initiating thunder (Chen). It is the topography (K’un) that takes the water cycle to its final completion in Lakes (Tui) or the sea. Similarly, it is the elevation of the Mountain (Ken) that makes clear the depths are dark/deep and Sunshine (Ch’ien) which energizes the Water Cycle that flows from the Mountain to the Lake.
Just an alternative view for those of us who believe there was a complete break to a new set of symbolic principles involved in the Chou Yi, not a constant continuation of number patterns which somehow got twisted about a bit from Earlier to Later Heaven.
Frank
Hi Lienshan and laotzu,
I enjoyed the reference and quote from it above, though I found in it a very different slant upon this discussion. If one takes from the quote that the Shang were more sophisticated in their number diagrams, and the Chou more interested in different symbolism one sees the outline of the Later Heaven being based not in number diagrams but in gestalt symbolism.
The difference between seeing the lines of a trigram in terms of even or odd numbers or Yang and Yin becomes clear from the difference with pairs. With Even/Odd number arrangements, any set of three must have a pair of the same type which will always add to an even number. However, by Yang/Yin each trigram must have at least a pair of one type of line though that pair can be either Yang or Yin and remain Yang or Yin.
The third line, not the pair determines the overall value for the trigram. In terms of odd/even this follows by the pair always adding to an even number. In the gestalt symbolism, the pair—either Yang or Yin—forms the background upon which the third line forms the image.
It is a small difference from the number theory to the gestalt symbolism, but it is the portal to the totally different Later Heaven arrangement which isn’t grounded in numbers at all. Instead it is based upon concepts. The primary 4 trigrams upon the perpendicular bisectors mark off the concepts of beginning (chen)/completing (Tui) horizontally; against light (Li) and dark depth (K’an).
The other four clearly indicate this arrangement is by meaning not number theory. The pair of Sun and Ch’ien are Wind and Sunshine— kinetic energy images. The pair of Ken and K’un are potentials: mountain height and topographical depth. It is the mediation of Sun wind (weather systems) that turns solar light Li into initiating thunder (Chen). It is the topography (K’un) that takes the water cycle to its final completion in Lakes (Tui) or the sea. Similarly, it is the elevation of the Mountain (Ken) that makes clear the depths are dark/deep and Sunshine (Ch’ien) which energizes the Water Cycle that flows from the Mountain to the Lake.
Just an alternative view for those of us who believe there was a complete break to a new set of symbolic principles involved in the Chou Yi, not a constant continuation of number patterns which somehow got twisted about a bit from Earlier to Later Heaven.
Frank
getojack
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Kun, Xun, Li and Dui (1, 2, 3 and 4 in my notation) are the females in the family... mother, eldest daughter, middle daughter and youngest daughter, and yes, they are in the southern (top) part of the Later Heaven bagua.
Qian, Zhen, Kan and Gen (9, 8, 7 and 6 in my notation) are the males in the family... father, eldest son, middle son and youngest son, and yes, they are in the northern (bottom) part of the Later Heaven bagua.
I'm not sure why you're reading the females clockwise from the inside out and the males counterclockwise from the outside in, though.
getojack
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No, they don't. Zhen literally means "shock" or "to shake up", hence the image of thunder... Dui is translated variously as "marsh", "beneficent" and "to cash or exchange", which comes from the idea of marshes or rice paddies as a source of food and money. Only one of the meanings of Li has to do with light... the other meanings of Li are closer to "depart" or "go away". And the meaning of Kan is along the lines of "gap", "depression" or "hole", so it's closer to the meaning of topographical depth than Kun is.
No, they aren't... Xun doesn't mean wind at all, but "obeying" or "being submissive"... in the Yi, this is clear from 57.1 (Xun doubled), which talks about soldiers, as in obeying orders. Qian doesn't mean sunshine, but "strength", hence it's association with the male principle and hexagram 1.
Gen doesn't mean mountain... the word for mountain in Chinese is "shan". Gen's meaning is along the lines "blunt" or "outspoken". And Kun doesn't mean topographical depth... that's what Kan means. Kun is simply "earth" or the female principle, which nurtures living things.
Whichever meanings were later assigned to the trigrams, such as "mountain" or "thunder" or "lake" or even "Sunshine" or "Topographical Depth" are generalizations of meaning by later yidiots... but they're not in the original meaning of the words or the lines themselves.
<end rant>
fkegan
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Hi Getojack,
Your rant over dictionary meanings of Chinese terms has little relevance to the issues of ancient Chinese trigram patterns, but you do express well your intensity if not any utility of deep meaning.
I did check out Yellowbridge on some of your terms, but that resource indicates a fuller range of meanings and derivations than you seem to allow, but then that is essential to your total perspective. There is both an advantage and a loss in tunnel vision blinders.
Dear ole Wieger, S.J. is very clear this ideogram Ch'ien from its ancient drawing shows rays of sunshine burning off swamp mist to form clouds to water the fields. All the rest is later simplification.
I particularly note your offering Dui as cash or a marshy rice paddy which would be a reservoir of value. Or Sun which Yellowbridge translates as being the 5th of 8 trigrams. The Chinese character itself is remarkably symmetrical, which would suggest the same sort of submissive obedience as Yin--that is able to cleanly divide into two rather than holding together in one piece. However, this is also the power of wind (or wood) which do not resist but rather follow the pressure gradients (or water sources) however in doing so they transmit the power of the Solar flux which then generates storms.
K'un and K'an do have the same element meaning Earth, perhaps the 4 corners underscored, but their second element differ, one being the whole extent of the Earth and the other being a pit or depth in the earth. The Planet Earth is the structure of its topography which controls how things happen. The dark depths of the pit in contrast to the beauty, clarity and light of the sun well describe the traditional and universal meanings of celestial lights in clear cyclic motion and the mundane which establishes the nadir against which both the elevation of Ken (in Yellowbridge just 7th of 8 trigrams) and the Solar flux of Ch'ien produce their energy effects.
In all these definitions you cling to, the concepts remain the same but you find details to be taken off on tangents which lead nowhere much but would justify your apparent belief that only single digits are worth noticing instead of the complexity of Yi meaning.
In any event there are a cloud of meaning bits which can either be taken as literal details or organized into concepts. As details, they don't fit very well to any of the commentary upon the hexagrams made up of these concepts, though there are always those more focused upon the minutiae of the bark of individual trees rather than the whole forest as a living ecosystem.
In terms of the lines in the trigrams, those develop from the interaction of the Yang lines in their first, second or third places with the open Yin spaces that influence them as vacuum draws upon pressure. Those associations also yield a number of metaphors but they again, overall work in the ways I set forth and which you missed in your eagerness to rant rather than understand. I can see why you would prefer number values to concepts given your literal definitions. I prefer meaning to number patterns.
In fact, I believe that is what the great change of the early Chou innovation was all about, moving from the trigrams and hexagrams as number counters to their being meaningful patterns which described the timing of all perceived events, natural or personal. When you can get your numbers and your definitions to explain the Yi oracle and its divination power, then I would listen.
Until then, I can just
while I think "Res ipsa loquitur"
Frank
Your rant over dictionary meanings of Chinese terms has little relevance to the issues of ancient Chinese trigram patterns, but you do express well your intensity if not any utility of deep meaning.
I did check out Yellowbridge on some of your terms, but that resource indicates a fuller range of meanings and derivations than you seem to allow, but then that is essential to your total perspective. There is both an advantage and a loss in tunnel vision blinders.
Dear ole Wieger, S.J. is very clear this ideogram Ch'ien from its ancient drawing shows rays of sunshine burning off swamp mist to form clouds to water the fields. All the rest is later simplification.
I particularly note your offering Dui as cash or a marshy rice paddy which would be a reservoir of value. Or Sun which Yellowbridge translates as being the 5th of 8 trigrams. The Chinese character itself is remarkably symmetrical, which would suggest the same sort of submissive obedience as Yin--that is able to cleanly divide into two rather than holding together in one piece. However, this is also the power of wind (or wood) which do not resist but rather follow the pressure gradients (or water sources) however in doing so they transmit the power of the Solar flux which then generates storms.
K'un and K'an do have the same element meaning Earth, perhaps the 4 corners underscored, but their second element differ, one being the whole extent of the Earth and the other being a pit or depth in the earth. The Planet Earth is the structure of its topography which controls how things happen. The dark depths of the pit in contrast to the beauty, clarity and light of the sun well describe the traditional and universal meanings of celestial lights in clear cyclic motion and the mundane which establishes the nadir against which both the elevation of Ken (in Yellowbridge just 7th of 8 trigrams) and the Solar flux of Ch'ien produce their energy effects.
In all these definitions you cling to, the concepts remain the same but you find details to be taken off on tangents which lead nowhere much but would justify your apparent belief that only single digits are worth noticing instead of the complexity of Yi meaning.
In any event there are a cloud of meaning bits which can either be taken as literal details or organized into concepts. As details, they don't fit very well to any of the commentary upon the hexagrams made up of these concepts, though there are always those more focused upon the minutiae of the bark of individual trees rather than the whole forest as a living ecosystem.
In terms of the lines in the trigrams, those develop from the interaction of the Yang lines in their first, second or third places with the open Yin spaces that influence them as vacuum draws upon pressure. Those associations also yield a number of metaphors but they again, overall work in the ways I set forth and which you missed in your eagerness to rant rather than understand. I can see why you would prefer number values to concepts given your literal definitions. I prefer meaning to number patterns.
In fact, I believe that is what the great change of the early Chou innovation was all about, moving from the trigrams and hexagrams as number counters to their being meaningful patterns which described the timing of all perceived events, natural or personal. When you can get your numbers and your definitions to explain the Yi oracle and its divination power, then I would listen.
Until then, I can just
while I think "Res ipsa loquitur" Frank
lienshan
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hi getojack
It's the only way of counting that fits the trigram order described in Shuo Kua, chapter two, section three.
Shuo Kua is a bit tricky to read and understand, because it's the compromise of union between two schools; the image-number school and the philosophical school. That's why Shuo Kua consists of two creation stories:
The image-number creation story is told in chapter one, section one and in chapter two, section three.
The philosophical creation story is told in chapter one, section two and in chapter two, section four.
http://www.workofthechariot.com/TextFiles/Translations-ShuoQua.html
And the both clockwise and counterclockwise counting fits the spiral patterns on many Yangshao potteries.
http://www.ceramicstudies.me.uk/hgrafs09/ch910aas.gif
What I myself find most interesting is the compability between this way of counting the Later Heaven trigram sequence and the Mawangdui trigram sequence. This might indicate a connection between the Mawangdui Yi and the number-image school?
lienshan
Dear Lien Shan
Thank you for your wonderful sources, especially that article about the game of Go. Unfortunately, I am taking too much time digesting their contents, which are proving a bit too challenging for me.
So I wonder if you could kindly provide an illustration of the Mawangdui trigram arrangement in a horizontal layout form. Please indicate whether the trigrams should be read top-down or upwards, and from left to right or from right to left.
Thank you, everyone else, for contributing, especially getojack, whose postings make things so much clearer about the concepts being discussed.
Thank you for your wonderful sources, especially that article about the game of Go. Unfortunately, I am taking too much time digesting their contents, which are proving a bit too challenging for me.
So I wonder if you could kindly provide an illustration of the Mawangdui trigram arrangement in a horizontal layout form. Please indicate whether the trigrams should be read top-down or upwards, and from left to right or from right to left.
Thank you, everyone else, for contributing, especially getojack, whose postings make things so much clearer about the concepts being discussed.
lienshan
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hi Laotsu ... the Mawangdui trigram arrangement in a horizontal layout form:
http://www.biroco.com/yijing/sequence.htm#mwd
lienshan
http://www.biroco.com/yijing/sequence.htm#mwd
lienshan
lienshan
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hi Laotsu ... and here are my comments to the Mawangdui link:
The trigram order is vertical: Heaven-Mountain-Water-Thunder-Earth-Lake-Fire-Wind
and horisontal: Heaven-Earth / Mountain-Lake / Water-Fire / Thunder-Wind
The first four vertical trigrams, viewed counterclockwise from the outside in, and the last four trigrams, viewed clockwise from the inside out, are mentioned in exactly the same order in Shuogua section three:
Heaven and Earth determine the direction
The forces of Mountain and Lake are united.
Thunder and Wind arouse each other.
Water and Fire do (not) combat each other. (footnote below)
Each of the trigrams of the four horisontal complementary pairs are 2 steps, 3 steps, 4 steps and 1 step from each others in the Later Heaven trigram sequence, when viewed clockwise from the inside out.
Each of the trigrams of the four horisontal complementary pairs are 2 steps, 1 step, 4 steps and 3 steps from each others in the Later Heaven trigram sequence, when viewed counterclockwise from the outside in.
Both ways of stepping round the Later Heaven match perfectly with the last text of Shuogua section three:
Counting that which is going into the past depends on the forward movement.
Knowing that which is to come depends on the backward movement.
(Either forewards 2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1 etc. or backwards 2-1-4-3-2-1-4-3 etc.)
The Mawangdui Shuogua actually only contained the first three sections of the received Shuogua and not e.g. the fourth section etc, that might be later additions?
(Footnote) Section three of the Mawangdui Shuogua contains a notable variant:
"Fire and water vie with one another", where the received text says they do not vie.
lienshan
The trigram order is vertical: Heaven-Mountain-Water-Thunder-Earth-Lake-Fire-Wind
and horisontal: Heaven-Earth / Mountain-Lake / Water-Fire / Thunder-Wind
The first four vertical trigrams, viewed counterclockwise from the outside in, and the last four trigrams, viewed clockwise from the inside out, are mentioned in exactly the same order in Shuogua section three:
Heaven and Earth determine the direction
The forces of Mountain and Lake are united.
Thunder and Wind arouse each other.
Water and Fire do (not) combat each other. (footnote below)
Each of the trigrams of the four horisontal complementary pairs are 2 steps, 3 steps, 4 steps and 1 step from each others in the Later Heaven trigram sequence, when viewed clockwise from the inside out.
Each of the trigrams of the four horisontal complementary pairs are 2 steps, 1 step, 4 steps and 3 steps from each others in the Later Heaven trigram sequence, when viewed counterclockwise from the outside in.
Both ways of stepping round the Later Heaven match perfectly with the last text of Shuogua section three:
Counting that which is going into the past depends on the forward movement.
Knowing that which is to come depends on the backward movement.
(Either forewards 2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1 etc. or backwards 2-1-4-3-2-1-4-3 etc.)
The Mawangdui Shuogua actually only contained the first three sections of the received Shuogua and not e.g. the fourth section etc, that might be later additions?
(Footnote) Section three of the Mawangdui Shuogua contains a notable variant:
"Fire and water vie with one another", where the received text says they do not vie.
lienshan
Thank you again, Lien Shan, for a source for yet another wonderful article.
Unfortunately, a request for a simple diagram to illustrate your "Mawangdui trigram sequence" was met with the need to peruse another article.
The article Yijing hexagram sequences by Steve Marshall, which fortunately was much easier to understand than the other earlier quoted articles, contained only one set of trigrams showing the standard 'family member' trigrams qian, zhen, kan, gen, kun, xun, li, and dui as the Father-Eldest son-Middle son-Youngest son-Mother-Eldest daughter-Middle daughter-Youngest daughter sequence, with the trigrams read the usual Western way - i.e., upwards; e.g., eldest son trigram has a unbroken line at the bottom with two broken lines above.
All other diagrams consist of hexagrams, usually squares of 64 hexagrams.
In that article, the illustrated Mawangdui square of 64 hexagrams has in its first left column 8 hexagrams all of which consisting of duplicated trigrams. I believe this is the vertical set of trigrams you are referring to. Ignoring the duplication, the resulting 8 trigram sequence with their lines read upwards correspond to the trigrams of the above-mentioned 'family member' sequence, except that the sequence is now Father-Youngest son-Middle son-Eldest son-Mother-Youngest daughter-Middle daughter-Eldest daughter, which I can understand is the same as the Heaven-Mountain-Water-Thunder-Earth-Lake-Fire-Wind sequence (assuming the lines of the trigrams are read upwards).
After this, the second sentence in your attempt to elaborate on the way of interpreting the trigram sequence dealt with a horizontal sequence. At that point, I couldn't continue with the remaining fifty sentences of your post as I feel I've been sent into Outer Space because you seem to be dealing with some other sequence or an arrangement found in some other diagram, not the Mawangdui square of 64 hexagrams, without first mentioning what other sequence or arrangement found in whatever other diagram is being referred to.
Help!
Unfortunately, a request for a simple diagram to illustrate your "Mawangdui trigram sequence" was met with the need to peruse another article.
The article Yijing hexagram sequences by Steve Marshall, which fortunately was much easier to understand than the other earlier quoted articles, contained only one set of trigrams showing the standard 'family member' trigrams qian, zhen, kan, gen, kun, xun, li, and dui as the Father-Eldest son-Middle son-Youngest son-Mother-Eldest daughter-Middle daughter-Youngest daughter sequence, with the trigrams read the usual Western way - i.e., upwards; e.g., eldest son trigram has a unbroken line at the bottom with two broken lines above.
All other diagrams consist of hexagrams, usually squares of 64 hexagrams.
In that article, the illustrated Mawangdui square of 64 hexagrams has in its first left column 8 hexagrams all of which consisting of duplicated trigrams. I believe this is the vertical set of trigrams you are referring to. Ignoring the duplication, the resulting 8 trigram sequence with their lines read upwards correspond to the trigrams of the above-mentioned 'family member' sequence, except that the sequence is now Father-Youngest son-Middle son-Eldest son-Mother-Youngest daughter-Middle daughter-Eldest daughter, which I can understand is the same as the Heaven-Mountain-Water-Thunder-Earth-Lake-Fire-Wind sequence (assuming the lines of the trigrams are read upwards).
After this, the second sentence in your attempt to elaborate on the way of interpreting the trigram sequence dealt with a horizontal sequence. At that point, I couldn't continue with the remaining fifty sentences of your post as I feel I've been sent into Outer Space because you seem to be dealing with some other sequence or an arrangement found in some other diagram, not the Mawangdui square of 64 hexagrams, without first mentioning what other sequence or arrangement found in whatever other diagram is being referred to.
Help!
lienshan
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hi Laotzu
The horisontal trigram sequence are the eight trigrams below in the first horisontal row of eight Mawangdui hexagrams, shown in the link:
Father-Mother-Youngest son-Youngest daughter-Middle son-Middle daugther-Eldest son-Eldest Daughter
The treadstarter Michael Erlewine asked, why Father and Mother are in their Later Heaven positions?
My answer is, that it's the only way to show both the vertical and the horisontal Mawangdui sequence!
The minor male cycle of four trigrams must be read counterclockwise from the outside in.
The minor female cycle of four trigrams must be read clockwise from the inside out.
The major complementary cycle of four trigram pairs can be read both clockwise from the inside out and counterclockwise from the outside in, as told in Shuogua section three.
sparhawk says, that the received Later Heaven is only read clockwise from the inside out. This way of reading is described in Shuogua section four, but the Mawangdui Shuogua only consist of the first three sections ...
Frank says, that the Later Heaven has nothing to do with numbers? Numbers are mentioned in Shuogua section three, while there is no watercycle mentioned ...
lienshan
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lienshan
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explained with other words:
The major western problem of understanding the Later Heaven trigram sequence is, that the two most important translations into western language, those of Wilhelm and Legge, fail to explain how the trigrams are made of the numbers three and two, in their commentaries to Shuogua section one.
http://www.schuledesrades.org/public/iging/buch/?Q=5/0/2/0/0/1/2
http://www.sacred-texts.com/ich/icap5.htm
My explanation is numerologic:
6 whole lines are like 3 whole lines named Heaven, so 1 whole line was too named Heaven and was assigned the number three. 6 broken lines are like 3 broken lines named Earth, so 1 broken line was too named Earth and was assigned the number two. The three "son-trigrams" of 1 whole + 2 broken lines was counted as 3+2+2=7 while the three "daughter-trigrams" of 1 broken + 2 whole lines was counted 2+3+3=8.
...................... 8d
................ 8b ....... 6a
........... 7b ................. 8c
................ 7c ....... 9a
...................... 7d
All the four complementary pairs have together the value 15 exactly as in the magic square.
http://www.schuledesrades.org/public/iging/buch/?Q=5/0/2/0/0/1/3 My own translation :
a: Heaven and Earth decide the direction
this sentence describes, that there are two directions
b: The forces of Mountain and Lake are united
this sentence describes, that the two trigrams are neighbors
c: Thunder and Wind exite each other
this sentence describes, that the two trigrams are almost opposite each other
d: Water and Fire combat each other (the Mawangdui version)
this sentence describes, that the two trigrams are opposite each other
So are the eight trigrams intermingled
The numbering of the past is a forewards process
this sentence describes the Earth direction
The knowledge of the coming is a backwards process
this sentence describes the Heaven direction
Therefore in the Yi we have backwards moving numbers
this sentence describes, that the Later Heaven is viewed counterclockwise (from the outside in)
the sentences are my own interpretations of the Richard Wilhelm Shuogua chapter two text
lienshan
The major western problem of understanding the Later Heaven trigram sequence is, that the two most important translations into western language, those of Wilhelm and Legge, fail to explain how the trigrams are made of the numbers three and two, in their commentaries to Shuogua section one.
http://www.schuledesrades.org/public/iging/buch/?Q=5/0/2/0/0/1/2
http://www.sacred-texts.com/ich/icap5.htm
My explanation is numerologic:
6 whole lines are like 3 whole lines named Heaven, so 1 whole line was too named Heaven and was assigned the number three. 6 broken lines are like 3 broken lines named Earth, so 1 broken line was too named Earth and was assigned the number two. The three "son-trigrams" of 1 whole + 2 broken lines was counted as 3+2+2=7 while the three "daughter-trigrams" of 1 broken + 2 whole lines was counted 2+3+3=8.
...................... 8d
................ 8b ....... 6a
........... 7b ................. 8c
................ 7c ....... 9a
...................... 7d
All the four complementary pairs have together the value 15 exactly as in the magic square.
http://www.schuledesrades.org/public/iging/buch/?Q=5/0/2/0/0/1/3 My own translation
:a: Heaven and Earth decide the direction
this sentence describes, that there are two directionsb: The forces of Mountain and Lake are united
this sentence describes, that the two trigrams are neighborsc: Thunder and Wind exite each other
this sentence describes, that the two trigrams are almost opposite each otherd: Water and Fire combat each other (the Mawangdui version)
this sentence describes, that the two trigrams are opposite each otherSo are the eight trigrams intermingled
The numbering of the past is a forewards process
this sentence describes the Earth directionThe knowledge of the coming is a backwards process
this sentence describes the Heaven directionTherefore in the Yi we have backwards moving numbers
this sentence describes, that the Later Heaven is viewed counterclockwise (from the outside in)the
sentences are my own interpretations of the Richard Wilhelm Shuogua chapter two textlienshan
getojack
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Um, yes, but so do a lot of other trigram pairs... for example Thunder and Fire, or Mountain and Wind.
b: The forces of Mountain and Lake are united
c: Thunder and Wind exite each other
You've mixed up B and C here, because B in your diagram corresponds to Thunder and Wind, while C corresponds to Mountain and Lake.
lienshan
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There are ten pairs of the value 15: the Parent pair and the nine son-daughter pair combinations.
The scheme is showing the Later Heaven viewed from the outside in. I do so according to the quoted Shuogua text "Therefore in the Yi we have backwards moving numbers". My inspiration is the Mawangdui Shuogua version, that "Water and Fire combat each other" where the received Shuogua text says, that "Water and Fire do not combat each other". This indicate, that the Later Heaven sequence is actually described in Shuogua section three, because the Mawangdui text version says, that Water and Fire are opposite to each other. This positional view explains, why "the forces of Mountain and Lake are united", simply because they are neighbors in the Later Heaven sequence viewed from the outside in.
...................... 8d
................ 8b ....... 6a
........... 7b ................. 8c
................ 7c ....... 9a
...................... 7d
getojack
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I see. Well, then you're looking at a completely different bagua than the Later Heaven. It might help if you labelled it differently in order to avoid confusion. Perhaps you could call it the "Inverse Later Heaven bagua" or "Mawangdui bagua".
fkegan
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From number magic to meaning analysis
Hi Lienshan,
These lines also describe the Earlier Heaven arrangement in terms of opposite pairs. Heaven and Earth as Vertical Axis, Mt and Lake as next pair over on one side, thunder and Wind on the other side, and finally Water and Fire as horizontal axis.
Michael Erlewine's original thread arose from his being "confounded" that in the Later Heaven arrangement Heaven and Earth are not opposite pairs at all, instead on the same side between the vertical and horizontal axes. The 8 trigrams are shown as equals in the Later Heaven, not as the great dichotomy of 3 lines the same indicating Father Heaven and Mother Earth.
Taken as equals, the 8 trigrams are not arranged in terms of their component lines or number values as in earlier arrangements and texts. Although it is possible as you and others have indicated to see numbers and line patterns and whatever else one likes in any arrangement if that is all one notices.
What would it mean in more general symbolic terms to arrange the 8 trigrams in pairs (indicated by the diameter lines drawn between trigrams around the circumference) as equals? This suggests this new (or at least philosophically more developed) arrangement is organized in terms of some other set of principles. To continue to look for explanation in the same way tends to intensify the confounding aspect of the arrangement.
Where does a symbolism in terms of number patterns lead to eventually? Symbolism based in the meaning associated to the patterns. Three yang lines comes to mean just the rays of sunshine. Three yin lines means just the layers of stratification or topographical elevation. The vertical axis becomes the meaning of Li Fire and K'an deep, dark depth in the earth with water in it when you dig that deep.
The horizontal axis goes to initiating Chen (either as the shock that demands attention or thunder which produces that shock and also is part of the storm system that starts the spring rains) and is completed in the final accumulation of Tui either as where the flowing water collects into lakes (or the sea for those on the coast) or the final growth of rice in the paddy that in the final analysis becomes crop or money.
Ch'ien leads its own minor pair putting Sun (whatever notion of symmetrical, yielding yet powerfulness one takes that ideogram to mean) opposite to the rays of sunshine which are such ethereal things, yet they animate, motivate and control all through the water cycle. K'un forms the final minor pair whose meaning is not the ethereal kinetic energy but the hard structural potential energy of elevation specifically highlighted in Ken.
The meaning analysis explains Michael Erlewine's original question of how could the primal trigrams of 3 lines all the same not be placed as a diameter pair central to the arrangement: It was a dramatic way to indicate the new departure from the old tradition of numbers and line patterns to a new orientation in terms of meaning and symbolism associated with these three-line patterns.
Frank
Hi Lienshan,
These lines also describe the Earlier Heaven arrangement in terms of opposite pairs. Heaven and Earth as Vertical Axis, Mt and Lake as next pair over on one side, thunder and Wind on the other side, and finally Water and Fire as horizontal axis.
Michael Erlewine's original thread arose from his being "confounded" that in the Later Heaven arrangement Heaven and Earth are not opposite pairs at all, instead on the same side between the vertical and horizontal axes. The 8 trigrams are shown as equals in the Later Heaven, not as the great dichotomy of 3 lines the same indicating Father Heaven and Mother Earth.
Taken as equals, the 8 trigrams are not arranged in terms of their component lines or number values as in earlier arrangements and texts. Although it is possible as you and others have indicated to see numbers and line patterns and whatever else one likes in any arrangement if that is all one notices.
What would it mean in more general symbolic terms to arrange the 8 trigrams in pairs (indicated by the diameter lines drawn between trigrams around the circumference) as equals? This suggests this new (or at least philosophically more developed) arrangement is organized in terms of some other set of principles. To continue to look for explanation in the same way tends to intensify the confounding aspect of the arrangement.
Where does a symbolism in terms of number patterns lead to eventually? Symbolism based in the meaning associated to the patterns. Three yang lines comes to mean just the rays of sunshine. Three yin lines means just the layers of stratification or topographical elevation. The vertical axis becomes the meaning of Li Fire and K'an deep, dark depth in the earth with water in it when you dig that deep.
The horizontal axis goes to initiating Chen (either as the shock that demands attention or thunder which produces that shock and also is part of the storm system that starts the spring rains) and is completed in the final accumulation of Tui either as where the flowing water collects into lakes (or the sea for those on the coast) or the final growth of rice in the paddy that in the final analysis becomes crop or money.
Ch'ien leads its own minor pair putting Sun (whatever notion of symmetrical, yielding yet powerfulness one takes that ideogram to mean) opposite to the rays of sunshine which are such ethereal things, yet they animate, motivate and control all through the water cycle. K'un forms the final minor pair whose meaning is not the ethereal kinetic energy but the hard structural potential energy of elevation specifically highlighted in Ken.
The meaning analysis explains Michael Erlewine's original question of how could the primal trigrams of 3 lines all the same not be placed as a diameter pair central to the arrangement: It was a dramatic way to indicate the new departure from the old tradition of numbers and line patterns to a new orientation in terms of meaning and symbolism associated with these three-line patterns.
Frank
lienshan
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hi Frank
Your meaning analysis might explain Michael Erlewine's original question? Only he knows ...
A simple answer is to understand the problem of the Later Heaven sequence inventor. He/she had to follow the rules written down in Shuogua e.g. rule one:
Heaven and Earth determine the direction(s)
The problem is, that if you put Heaven and Earth in South and North, then you don't know the direction, either clockwise or counterclockwise, if there is only one single cyclic direction from Heaven to Earth? The chinese sign means both direction and directions. Both ways around the cycle are four steps, while there is no doubt in the Later Heaven trigram sequence, that the short way is the two steps counterclockwise from Heaven to Earth.
lienshan
fkegan
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Different answers for different Tao...
Bold added to highlight what would be the prime place to indicate a change to new rules making a clear break with earlier assumptions.
Hi Lienshan,
If one assumes the ancient Shang perspective is the only possible context and insist upon fitting the Later Heaven into the earlier system, as you have shown in earlier posts, it only requires a few twists, turns and reversals to accomplish that goal.
M. Earlewine has moved on to other projects and expects to come to his own answer sometime in the future. However, the question he originally asked remains as a general challenge. What is the OVERALL meaning of putting the two trigrams of all the same lines in places without clearly special meaning. As you note, one answer can be to indicate spin directions, though that fails to give an overall statement to the entire set--or in other words--what is so special about the Li-K'an and Chen-Tui axes?
When there is not a clear overall statement explicit in a symbolic arrangement that is also meaningful. In this case, I accept the notion of the value of innovation and that King Wen (or whoever known to us as such) did NOT have to follow earlier rules but could invent new ones. That is the fundamental question--Is there anything new under the sun or are original rules in original texts the only possible Tao?
In terms of the King Wen novel rules, what better way to express that the trigrams were to be interpreted as symbolism where each of the 8 patterns were equal and thus arranged in terms of the meaning of the whole trigram, not just their constituent lines or number value, than to place K'un and Ch'ien in the most minor and least distinguished places in his new arrangement.
This is further indicated by putting across from them (with this pairing noted by diameter line) the trigram of similar meaning (Mountain-Earth and Wind-Sunshine) although totally different structure (Mother-youngest son and Father-eldest daughter) although identifying correctly the family dynamics relationships. Not the traditional Chinese family roles, but the universal human realities of Father to first born girl-child and Mother to youngest child who is a boy.
One starts with one's own assumptions and context which make up our Tao in which we each swim like a fish in a fish bowl. From that background we interpret everything we see in terms of how it looks to us. With imagination and determination anything can be made to fit our expectations. What becomes of more general interest to others in their own Tao-bowls is what objective principles and arrangements are required for each perspective.
Frank
Underline added to highlight assumption there are no new rules allowed.
Bold added to highlight what would be the prime place to indicate a change to new rules making a clear break with earlier assumptions.
Hi Lienshan,
If one assumes the ancient Shang perspective is the only possible context and insist upon fitting the Later Heaven into the earlier system, as you have shown in earlier posts, it only requires a few twists, turns and reversals to accomplish that goal.
M. Earlewine has moved on to other projects and expects to come to his own answer sometime in the future. However, the question he originally asked remains as a general challenge. What is the OVERALL meaning of putting the two trigrams of all the same lines in places without clearly special meaning. As you note, one answer can be to indicate spin directions, though that fails to give an overall statement to the entire set--or in other words--what is so special about the Li-K'an and Chen-Tui axes?
When there is not a clear overall statement explicit in a symbolic arrangement that is also meaningful. In this case, I accept the notion of the value of innovation and that King Wen (or whoever known to us as such) did NOT have to follow earlier rules but could invent new ones. That is the fundamental question--Is there anything new under the sun or are original rules in original texts the only possible Tao?
In terms of the King Wen novel rules, what better way to express that the trigrams were to be interpreted as symbolism where each of the 8 patterns were equal and thus arranged in terms of the meaning of the whole trigram, not just their constituent lines or number value, than to place K'un and Ch'ien in the most minor and least distinguished places in his new arrangement.
This is further indicated by putting across from them (with this pairing noted by diameter line) the trigram of similar meaning (Mountain-Earth and Wind-Sunshine) although totally different structure (Mother-youngest son and Father-eldest daughter) although identifying correctly the family dynamics relationships. Not the traditional Chinese family roles, but the universal human realities of Father to first born girl-child and Mother to youngest child who is a boy.
One starts with one's own assumptions and context which make up our Tao in which we each swim like a fish in a fish bowl. From that background we interpret everything we see in terms of how it looks to us. With imagination and determination anything can be made to fit our expectations. What becomes of more general interest to others in their own Tao-bowls is what objective principles and arrangements are required for each perspective.
Frank
lienshan
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hi Frank
The trigram rules of Shuogua section three are the oldest known and written before 168 BC when the Mawangdui silk was buried. I can't imagine an general accepted explanation that contradict these rules.
lienshan
agree :bows:
Yes ... exactly that is the challenge
The trigram rules of Shuogua section three are the oldest known and written before 168 BC when the Mawangdui silk was buried. I can't imagine an general accepted explanation that contradict these rules.
lienshan
fkegan
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Just how ancient do our ancient studies need to be?
Hi Lienshan,
Yes, you state the traditionalist perspective quite exactly there. However, the ancient perspective, like the Shang bone oracles, tended to be replaced by the new King Wen Sequence and Yi oracle which all the "generally accepted explanations" note can not be explained by those older texts.
Thus the great challenge: Do you still cling to the most ancient text and just dismiss later innovations OR do you use other sources to explain the Universal principles which entered into the King Wen/Duke Chou innovations?
I chose the latter view which doesn't diminish the traditional alternatives, just adds explanation where they can only ignore, deny or rejigger things to try to more or less keep the prior system going.
For those open to an explanation NOT continuing the Shang traditions which seem to be quite explicit and exact for the Earlier Heaven arrangement...
Putting Ch'ien and K'un in the NW and SW positions without any clear connection to anything in the Earlier Heaven arrangement is a bold statement that the old rules are now overthrown. The one trigram pair that remains from the Earlier Heaven arrangement, Li--K'an is moved 90 degrees to maintain continuity with the old ways. Though even here this similarity is a major departure to new rules.
The Later Heaven innovation was a change from numbers and line places to overall meaning. Li and K'an in terms of their meaning refer to a pair of what is found up in the sky and down deep in the Earth--the pretty fireball of the sun and the deep, dark, wet found if one digs down far enough.
East and West, where the day begins at dawn and ends at sunset are occupied by the trigram pair Chen where things begin (cf. hex 3) and Tui where final results come together. How can Ken pair to K'un or Sun to Ch'ien except by their new meaning of potential energy of elevation to K'un or Ken and kinetic energy of solar flux in terms of Ch'ien and Sun (wind, growing wood, gentle action all none water fluid action).
The overall meaning perspective also explains how this new Chou Yi oracle allows the transition from answering specific questions Yes/No of the Shang oracle bones to the hexagram patterns that describe overall process development. When one puts the details of the divination questions and answers along with the number patterns and line values the FACT that a major and total innovation occurred is evident.
What reason is there to only think in terms of the most ancient text? What was this Golden Age where Absolute Truth was Divinely Revealed and all subsequent thinking could only be a devolution from gods and heroes to the fallible creatures we know in our own experience?
Once innovation and development are allowed as possible, then the King Wen/Duke Chou arrangements stand alone, on their own without any required involvement of earlier texts. What better time than the overthrow of antique dynasty by a new one for such an innovation? More importantly, why would we, in our postmodern reality feel constrained to only look to texts more than 3 millennia old rather than enjoy the advantages of 'modern' improvements like Chou Yi oracles, concepts of Yang and Yin, and commentary ranging over 3,000 years all of which do not exist in terms of the earlier Shang stuff?
Frank
Hi Lienshan,
Yes, you state the traditionalist perspective quite exactly there. However, the ancient perspective, like the Shang bone oracles, tended to be replaced by the new King Wen Sequence and Yi oracle which all the "generally accepted explanations" note can not be explained by those older texts.
Thus the great challenge: Do you still cling to the most ancient text and just dismiss later innovations OR do you use other sources to explain the Universal principles which entered into the King Wen/Duke Chou innovations?
I chose the latter view which doesn't diminish the traditional alternatives, just adds explanation where they can only ignore, deny or rejigger things to try to more or less keep the prior system going.
For those open to an explanation NOT continuing the Shang traditions which seem to be quite explicit and exact for the Earlier Heaven arrangement...
Putting Ch'ien and K'un in the NW and SW positions without any clear connection to anything in the Earlier Heaven arrangement is a bold statement that the old rules are now overthrown. The one trigram pair that remains from the Earlier Heaven arrangement, Li--K'an is moved 90 degrees to maintain continuity with the old ways. Though even here this similarity is a major departure to new rules.
The Later Heaven innovation was a change from numbers and line places to overall meaning. Li and K'an in terms of their meaning refer to a pair of what is found up in the sky and down deep in the Earth--the pretty fireball of the sun and the deep, dark, wet found if one digs down far enough.
East and West, where the day begins at dawn and ends at sunset are occupied by the trigram pair Chen where things begin (cf. hex 3) and Tui where final results come together. How can Ken pair to K'un or Sun to Ch'ien except by their new meaning of potential energy of elevation to K'un or Ken and kinetic energy of solar flux in terms of Ch'ien and Sun (wind, growing wood, gentle action all none water fluid action).
The overall meaning perspective also explains how this new Chou Yi oracle allows the transition from answering specific questions Yes/No of the Shang oracle bones to the hexagram patterns that describe overall process development. When one puts the details of the divination questions and answers along with the number patterns and line values the FACT that a major and total innovation occurred is evident.
What reason is there to only think in terms of the most ancient text? What was this Golden Age where Absolute Truth was Divinely Revealed and all subsequent thinking could only be a devolution from gods and heroes to the fallible creatures we know in our own experience?
Once innovation and development are allowed as possible, then the King Wen/Duke Chou arrangements stand alone, on their own without any required involvement of earlier texts. What better time than the overthrow of antique dynasty by a new one for such an innovation? More importantly, why would we, in our postmodern reality feel constrained to only look to texts more than 3 millennia old rather than enjoy the advantages of 'modern' improvements like Chou Yi oracles, concepts of Yang and Yin, and commentary ranging over 3,000 years all of which do not exist in terms of the earlier Shang stuff?
Frank