Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
There is a simpler way to link the xian-tian and hou-tian arrangements through the mediation of the Lo-shu. If we superimpose the xian-tian (former heaven) octagon over the Lo-shu, we get peripheral position numbers for each trigram. The sequence of these numbers---1,6,7,2,9,4,3,8---is the same sequence we get by starting from "1" at the inner bottom of the Ho-tu diagram, wrapping around to the top, and then scrolling straight across the diagram from left to right. {This was noted by Al Huang in I Ching Numerology.}
merlewine said:stions.
In the Later Heaven sequence, what makes Chen number one in the sequence? Why not some other trigram, based on the concept that a circle has no beginning or end, and that if we choose a beginning (i.e. Chen), then we equally could choose any other point on the circle/sequence. What is the historical place where this began and were there any particular reasons?
merlewine said:I note that there is now a poll on this topic, and I am unclear how a poll will help explain this, but, again, I am new here. <G>
merlewine said:I have no idea what you mean when you say:
“The Former Heaven sequence traditionally starts counter-clockwise then shifts clockwise after it reaches the Chen trigram. ”
Thanks for the feedback. You reinforce my arguement. There is indeed much insight and depth in King Wan's work but it is of a mathematical and mathematically determined sequence. The old ways used the observation of nature as the experiential logic rather than mathematical abstraction, regardless of how clear the mathematical abstractions seem. It is two different systems. Mathematical deduction usually assumes perfect circles, while in life and astrology most things happen in ellipses.
Hi Frank,
I really like your work with the ten points of Pythagoras. I too have been influenced by it. Will get back to you about it sometime later when I have had some time to get into it more.
Robin
IMO, no discussions and conclusions on the trigrams would be complete without considering what Schuyler Cammann had to say about them..
I have been trying to understand the origin, nature, and ordering of the eight trigrams, in particular as they appear in the Former and Later Heaven sequences. {first line of first post}
{middle restatement} since the Later Heaven sequence is labeled by many authors a “sequence” or cycle, just how did they come up with that particular arrangement as “the” sequence. I understand that the arrangement was arrived at through the Magic Square, but how on earth (or heaven) do they justify putting the father and mother trigrams (Qian and Kun) at a 90-degree angle, rather than the traditional 180-degree angle. I simply don’t understand.
{and finally}What I was puzzled about (and to me is not so intuitive) is the Later Heaven sequence and, in particular, how the father and mother trigrams (Qian and Kun) could be placed at right angles to one another. I have heard zero response about this that makes sense to me, aside from the interesting comment that they are getting out of the way for the kids. Ok....if anyone can shed light on this question, I would appreciate it.
Thanks,
Michael Erlewine (Michel@Erlewine.net)
Hi Luis,
No link to the citation? No cogent comments upon the substance of his argument? All I could find through Google was the same old millennium [academic] stuff relying upon artifacts from grave robbing and comments that math is good while divination is occult which is not Christian and thus bad...
Schuyler seems unlikely to answer any real questions. The simple answer is that in the Former Heaven uses the 3 Yang Lines as Father Heaven and the 3 Yin Lines as Mother Earth. The Later Heaven uses Ch'ien as Sunshine [energy] and the 3 Yin lines of trigram Kun as the markings of Planet Earth topography (across from Ken mountain or high elevation) as a pair of symbols of structure compared to Ch'ien and Sun as energy of Sunshine and wind. No need for magic squares or math secrets or ancient grave artifacts--just a realization the KWS and Later Heaven are all about sophisticated philosophy using the gua line patterns for their symbolic meaning. Not quaint ancient math more primitive than what is familiar to us--MORE sophisticated philosophy which was universal by the 6th century BCE and lost as Crusader academics and their military wings took to reduce all other learning to just fuel for their bonfires.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).