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Former Heaven and Later Heaven Origin

fkegan

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The simple alternative to deep academic articles..

Let's give Micheal some credit. He knows all that about the basic Earlier and Later Heaven configurations. His question was regarding the "why" of the positional arrangement of the Later Heaven Bagua (KWS):

It is this that is explained in Cammann's "The Origin of the Trigram Circles in Ancient China", in a more clear and convincing way than in any other literature I've found so far in the West (and I've read a lot...) If he's wrong or not, who knows. I actually liked his conclusions.

If he has great conclusions, I'd love to hear them--conclusions not long articles to be bought. Otherwise, I am fine with just:
The simple answer is that in the Former Heaven uses the 3 Yang Lines as Father Heaven and the 3 Yin Lines as Mother Earth. The Later Heaven uses Ch'ien as Sunshine [energy] and the 3 Yin lines of trigram Kun as the markings of Planet Earth topography (across from Ken mountain or high elevation) as a pair of symbols of structure compared to Ch'ien and Sun as energy of Sunshine and wind.

As to Michael E, who is a major astrologer I first learned about using his computer manual for astrologers to program my Apple //e to cast charts and do X-Ray Eye horoscopes, let him speak for himself...in his response to my email to him of the above, etc. when the moon moved into Aquarius, he replied,
As for the Early and Late sequence, I understand the Early sequence, but have never understood the Later sequence, nor will I probably.
I am well trained in oriental psychology/philosophy, but I don’t get any intuitive sense for the Later sequence, no matter how much I try. Fancy philosophical twists are (I guess) wasted on me.
I am working on other projects, but I hope to one day get back to the I-Ching and come up with my own view or how it all works.

We are on our own, and I have no need for further disputation upon the inner secrets of the Earlier or Later Heaven Trigram sequences, they are very clear to me as they are. The original question he raised was about why Ch'ien and Kun trigrams were moved 90 degrees from their prime positions in the Earlier Heaven and finding the traditional narrative that they moved out of the way so their kids could shine not satisfying. But that is basically sufficient and satisfying when Ch'ien and Kun become just sunshine and topographical elevation-- radiant energy and gravitational potential energy to the side while celestial fire and Deep Depths on the cardinal points. No great mystery or numerological intrigue required.

Frank
 
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getojack

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Maybe Frank is happy with his understanding of Ch'ien (Qian) as Sunshine and Kun as topographical elevation.... maybe Luis is content with the conclusions of Cammann (which I would love to hear a summary of, if possible)... but if anyone is interested in a numerological deconstruction of the Later Heaven Bagua, I have come to a conclusion which explains the trigram positions of Later Heaven. Just for fun, I also applied it to the Liebnitz binary number system, and my system of analysis works just as well in explaining the positions of the natural numbers from 0 to 7 when seen as a bagua or trigram wheel.
 

fkegan

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Maybe Frank is happy with his understanding of Ch'ien (Qian) as Sunshine and Kun as topographical elevation.... maybe Luis is content with the conclusions of Cammann (which I would love to hear a summary of, if possible)... but if anyone is interested in a numerological deconstruction of the Later Heaven Bagua, I have come to a conclusion which explains the trigram positions of Later Heaven. Just for fun, I also applied it to the Liebnitz binary number system, and my system of analysis works just as well in explaining the positions of the natural numbers from 0 to 7 when seen as a bagua or trigram wheel.
bold added.

Maybe? And where is your summary of this conclusion of yours? What makes natural numbers different from integers is that they are limited to what can actually be found in nature--so no negative numbers and NO ZERO. Using the Yin and Yang lines as binary counters of 0 and 1 in Western perspective can be associated to the Earlier Heaven arrangements, carrying that over to Later Heaven Bagua is a bit of a stretch. As Earlewine mentioned in his thread on Earlier and Later Heaven Bagua--how do you get 7 and 0 on each side of 3 in places of no particular note?
 

getojack

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Hey Frank,

Sorry if my post was unclear... I'm testing the waters to see if anyone would be interested in a numerological approach to understanding the Later Heaven Bagua sequence... It seemed to me that you were quite happy with your own explanation, and Luis with Mr. Cammann's explanation, so if there is no interest, then I see no need to explain my conclusions to the group.

Frank, to clarify further, I haven't assigned the numbers from 0 to 7 to the trigrams in the Later Heaven Bagua sequence. What I was saying is that I analyzed both the Later Heaven Bagua Sequence *and* the Liebniz binary sequence using the same method, sort of as a cross-check, if you will.
 
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sergio

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Hi 'Jack:
Thank you for your intent.We all would be interested in reading about your discovery.So......
Sergio
 

getojack

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OK, Sergio, thanks for the invitation...

First, it's clear that the concept of opposite trigrams must have been known by the time of the creation of the Later Heaven Bagua, so why aren't the opposite trigrams opposite, as they are in the Fu Hsi sequence?

Looking at the sequence starting with Thunder in the East... (turn your head to the right :))
|:: * :|| * |:| * ::: * ||: *||| * :|: * ::|

it's clear that the structurally opposite trigrams are:

1) Thunder-Wind: 1-Forward/1-Back Opposites
2) Fire-Water: 4-Forward/4-Back Opposites
3) Earth-Heaven: 2-Forward/2-Back Opposites
4) Lake-Mountain: 3-Forward/3-Back Opposites

Now, putting this information back into the sequence, and adding the Lo Shu numbers, it looks like this...

8: Thunder (1-Forward)
2: Wind (1-Back)
3: Fire (4-Forward)
1: Earth (2-Forward)
4: Lake (3-Forward)
9: Heaven (2-Back)
7: Water (4-Back)
6: Mountain (3-Back)

This particular sequence signature of opposites:
(1-forward/1-back, 2-forward/2-back, 3-forward/3-back, 4-forward/4-back)
occurs in nature in the relationship between 5 Elements...

For example, take any five objects... A, B, C, D and E

If they are placed in a linear sequence, it's possible to explain the relationship between all five of them using only those terms....

A is: 1-back from B, 2-back from C, 3-back from D and 4-back from E
B is: 1-forward from A, 1-back from C, 2-back from D and 3-back from E
C is: 2-forward from A, 1-forward from B, 1-back from D and 2-back from E
D is: 3-forward from A, 2-forward from B, 3-forward from C and 1-back from E
E is: 4-forward from A, 3-forward from B, 2-forward from C and 1 forward from D

It's clear from this that the Later Heaven Bagua were representative of a number system consisting of 5 Elements. Those Five Elements were placed in the sequence so that trigrams on the extreme ends would be opposite trigrams... in other words, the part of the sequence that runs... Fire, Earth, Lake, Heaven, Water. If you look at those five trigrams from the outside of the circle, you can see: Fire, Earth, Wood, Heaven, Water... so there it is, the Five Elements in the Eight Trigrams with the Lo Shu numbers.... a system within a system within a system... in a nutshell.
 

fkegan

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Hey Frank,

Sorry if my post was unclear... I'm testing the waters to see if anyone would be interested in a numerological approach to understanding the Later Heaven Bagua sequence... It seemed to me that you were quite happy with your own explanation, and Luis with Mr. Cammann's explanation, so if there is no interest, then I see no need to explain my conclusions to the group.

Frank, to clarify further, I haven't assigned the numbers from 0 to 7 to the trigrams in the Later Heaven Bagua sequence. What I was saying is that I analyzed both the Later Heaven Bagua Sequence *and* the Liebniz binary sequence using the same method, sort of as a cross-check, if you will.


Hi getojack,

OK, far more understandable. I would be interested in seeing both Luis' view of his buddy's explanation of the trigram sequence (that is the point of the copyright monopoly--to encourage discussion and development of the concepts) and also your work taking a numerical method to explain the both Leibniz binary sequence and Later Heaven.
Ok, I get lost between "linear sequence" and trigrams in a circle. I also get lost between 5 elements which in Chinese usage seems to be 4 perpendicular corners and the center and the organization of five equal independent things in a set.

And most of all, I get confused on why the notion of opposite patterns have to have special placement in the Later Heaven. If they are arranged in term of meaning in light of giving directions similar values to other meaning patterns, like Zodiac observations, the location of opposite patterns of graphic line structure fall where they fall. The Earlier Heaven pattern has the clear line pattern opposites. If the same opposite patterns were still important, what is the point of making the break with tradition to a new Later Heaven sequence? Seems your system goes through a lot of hoops to cling to Western binary number patterns and not consider what Legge called the occult basis for the Later ordering.

Frank
 
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Sparhawk

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OK, far more understandable. I would be interested in seeing both Luis' view of his buddy's explanation of the trigram sequence

Nah, since Michael Erlewine has not showed further interest in this thread, Luis and his ghostly "buddy" don't feel like it anymore... :D
 

fkegan

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Nah, since Michael Erlewine has not showed further interest in this thread, Luis and his ghostly "buddy" don't feel like it anymore... :D

Hi Luis,
You only play your game with Michael? What are the rest of us--stale empanadas? You are being too coy with that. Especially since Michael went away from this thread like a year ago, and when I tracked him down by email he had no interest in the subject anymore and looked to create his own system if and when he ever got around to it. Combined with his remarks that he felt unable to understand any explanation of the trigram sequence since they were outside his expectations, I think you are pinning your hopes on a phantom who is unlikely to respond to your serenades.

Frank
 

lienshan

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it's clear that the structurally opposite trigrams are:

1) Thunder-Wind: 1-Forward/1-Back Opposites
2) Fire-Water: 4-Forward/4-Back Opposites
3) Earth-Heaven: 2-Forward/2-Back Opposites
4) Lake-Mountain: 3-Forward/3-Back Opposites

If you look at those five trigrams from the outside of the circle, you can see:
Fire, Earth, Wood, Heaven, Water
hi getojack ... thanks for showing your calculations :)

A maybe foolish question: Where is my position? The 1-Forward/1-Back position looks to me like between the hexagrams Thunder and Wind, while the 2-Forward/2-Back position looks like either in Heaven or on Earth? Do your calculations function, if the structurally opposite trigrams are e.g.

1) Thunder-Wind: 1-Forward/7-Back Opposites
1a) Wind-Thunder: 7-Forward/1-Back Opposites
2) Earth-Heaven: 2-Forward/6-Back Opposites
2a) Heaven-Earth: 6-Forward/2-Back Opposites
3) Lake-Mountain: 3-Forward/5-Back Opposites
3a) Mountain-Lake: 5-Forward/3-Back Opposites
4) Fire-Water: 4-Forward/4-Back Opposites
4a) Water-Fire: 4-Forward/4-Back Opposites

lienshan
 

Sparhawk

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Hi Luis,
You only play your game with Michael? What are the rest of us--stale empanadas? You are being too coy with that. Especially since Michael went away from this thread like a year ago, and when I tracked him down by email he had no interest in the subject anymore and looked to create his own system if and when he ever got around to it. Combined with his remarks that he felt unable to understand any explanation of the trigram sequence since they were outside his expectations, I think you are pinning your hopes on a phantom who is unlikely to respond to your serenades.

Frank

:deadhorse:

I've never claimed maturity (it gives me an exhilarating sense of youth and foolery) Perhaps, barring disease and accidents, when I hit my sixth decade, I'll settle down (something I expect to be like staring at Medusa and turning to stone believing I know all there's to know...) :D

The references are there for all to seek, approve or discard. In the meantime, I'll hire a Mariachi to serenade my departed buddy. If anything, I'll enjoy the music and the tequila. :D
 

fkegan

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:deadhorse:

I've never claimed maturity (it gives me an exhilarating sense of youth and foolery) Perhaps, barring disease and accidents, when I hit my sixth decade, I'll settle down (something I expect to be like staring at Medusa and turning to stone believing I know all there's to know...) :D

The references are there for all to seek, approve or discard. In the meantime, I'll hire a Mariachi to serenade my departed buddy. If anything, I'll enjoy the music and the tequila. :D

Hi Luis,
Your the one beating the poor buddy horse. I dismissed that dualistic view of the trigrams long ago, just trying to give you a chance to redeem yourself. :brickwall:

Ok, on to better things... Fear Not! Maturity only matters when mentoring children--everyone else can take care of themselves. With all the music and tequila you won't notice when you enter your 6th decade--it really doesn't hurt or anything or turn to you to stone. Ultimately, I think it was only my mother's expert interrogation technique that made the question, "What do you plan to do in your new Xth decade?" a penultimate judgment.

Believing one knows all there is to know never comes with age--it is a young man's game based upon limited experience.Actually it is the opposite process that sneaks up on you. After a while you start to see each new thing as just another in the series of things you note from the past. This then results in new insights and an awesome appreciation of the harmonics (and thus Music of the Spheres) of the entire system. It's fun :p and you no longer care about being rude to youngish adults who are just juniors in the series.

So, back to the matter at hand. Explain the Later Heaven Bagua from the meaning of the trigram independent of the line values, binary number count or hopscotch game.
There are two sets of four, in our terms perpendicular axes or in T'ai Chi images the contrasting swirls and contrasting eyes:

The major axes--horizontal starting with Thunder which marks the beginning of the Spring growing season (cf. hex 3) and completing in the Lake where all that Spring rain runoff flows to after watering the fields and filling the streams and rivers. The vertical axis--Li for the Sun at the Zenith or at least up in the sky (cf. hex 30 Image) and K'an for the deep depths of the Earth, which are what fill up with water due to their topography.

The other four trigram form their own set of opposites, not by structure of number count but by meaning and their axes are askew to the central ones. These are two dichotomies, one by structure: K'un the topographic elevations of Planet Earth and Ken
the local exemplar of elevation (or mountain). The other by energy: Ch'ien or Sunshine and Sun or Wind. K'un is placed "up" as it were between Li and Tui to break any association from the Earlier Heaven and to show it is the topography that mediates between Sunshine and the flow of water into the Lake or Sea in our terms. Sun is placed between Thunder and Li to show thunder is associated with weather systems or pressure gradients based in Sunshine that generate the storms that thunder. Ken is placed between thunder and K'an to highlight its potential energy of elevation in contrast to the kinetic electricity of thunder and to contrast the height of Ken to the depths of K'an.

Ch'ien gets stuck in the final slot one to frustrate those like Earlewine expecting more glory for it, and two in parallel to elevation of the other side of Lake that it is sunshine that gives the energy to the water vapor that allows it to flow down through the deep places into the deeper Lake or sea. Q.E.D.:bows: etc.

Frank
 

Sparhawk

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I dismissed that dualistic view of the trigrams long ago, just trying to give you a chance to redeem yourself. :brickwall:


Redemption was never my forte... :D

It should be noted though that your explanation, a philosophical one and perhaps attractive to many, would not answer the initial question of the thread as it has no historical background.
 

fkegan

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Redemption was never my forte... :D

It should be noted though that your explanation, a philosophical one and perhaps attractive to many, would not answer the initial question of the thread as it has no historical background.

Hi Luis,
Redemption comes with age. Just a head's up and an outstretched hand to help you along, but if you want to keep to the mariachis and tequila...may I recommend the ranchero classic "ELLA" as a great compadre.

As to your second jibe, let's return to the original Well and pull on the bucket rope:

Yet, when I try to take the commonly accepted meaning of each trigram and try to make it fit the particular phase in the Former Heaven sequence, they don’t all really fit.
Next: If I look at the Later Heaven Sequence, everything makes even less sense as far as the structure of the three lines of each trigram. I fail to understand how we can take the two archetype (Yin/Yang) trigrams Qian and Kun, and place then off-center from the two main directions south and north, winter solstice / summer solstice, and so on – whatever cycle we might want to look at. Placing Qian in the S.W. direction and Kun in the N.W. direction… AND… not even opposite one another confounds me.

Clearly, Michael is hung up on the later nonsense of the Confucian dualism and Imperial Civil Service exam study guides and thus unable to see the original insights of the Later Heaven.

You tip your hand, Luis as an academic type. You apparently think history is controlled by the grave robbers who bring artifacts to the Museum and the monkish types who worship in the cloistered stacks of the Library (unaware it was burned in Alexandria long ago).

So what is my historical background to my explanation--the oral history of these universal and global insights of 6th Century BCE available to all through many traditions. So it is by philosophical induction from Pythagoras (who also is known only by fragments and illustrations in other texts as the Later Heaven arrangement is) that I claim all the historical background required.

Your complaint is then reduced to the whine that you are still committed to the concrete musings of your articles and library publications without interest in opening up to the opportunities of the New timing nowadays.

Let me try a bit of old style logic for you and Michael (and ghost buddy makes three)...

1) After much study and long pondering it is impossible to find a cogent explanation for the Later Heaven Bagua in terms of the premises and assumptions held.

2) The Later Heaven Bagua is an important part of the I Ching Cannon (cf. Wilhelm Book II Discussion of the Trigrams).

3) Therefore, by logical deduction, the long held premises and assumptions must be insufficient or erroneous. Q.E. D.

When there are no readily available Establishment Academic Library volumes, it is generally considered important to go find new stuff and publish it. I have done that in my post. Its historical roots are my other work, such as my website, going back into the '70's ---all that is now historical background too.

So, you need to explain more fully why my historical background isn't really historical background just because it puts your historical background into perspective and exposes its flaws, bad assumptions and errors in high contrast? Though it would explain why you are driven to mariachi music and strong drink to maintain denial.

Further historical background. The awareness of indigenous peoples all over the world over several millennia that their existence (and their crops) were controlled by the Water Cycle powered by the regular interactions of Mother Earth and the mysterious though strangely regular Sun shining above is well documented in academic library journals. That many of these folks were also aware of the complexities of celestial dynamics is also well-established. Further the ability of such folks to work out the effects of topography upon the flow of water through arable fields and into rivers is also established and seen in their irrigation works.

So what is the problem? Generally, the academics claim that they must be the most sophisticated and knowledgeable in all history, though that is disproved over and over again by all objective empirical inquiry. The current climate crisis coming to a head not in 100 years anymore, or even 10 apparently, but very likely this summer and next winter will likely make the foolishness of this academic view clear and its support for the blind destruction of fundamental Planet Earth systems obvious--at least to the survivors. The latest theory on the destruction of bees worldwide is that the air pollution interferes with their ability to smell flower nectar and find food (or pollinate our crops).

We have the opportunity to find in the ancient systems the framework to rebuild our world so that it can continue. Just the little issue of being open to obvious reality and closing off the tendency to violent destruction of everything that shows our errors-- which hasn't ever worked very well but still is the choice of the young set.

So, Luis, let's take a moment to look at the evidence and consider it. Does it work? Does it explain the leap from Earlier Heaven to Later Heaven--clearly a Quantum Leap? and then look to what hints can be found in the historical record that these concepts were known and transmitted orally to a much smaller though strangely influential set than the objective, simplistic renderings of these process systems into concrete, dualistic diagrams easily studied and put into civil service exams.

Frank
 

Sparhawk

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Clearly, Michael is hung up on the later nonsense of the Confucian dualism and Imperial Civil Service exam study guides and thus unable to see the original insights of the Later Heaven.

See, the way it works is that when anybody starts viewing others' positions and views as "nonsense" they open themselves to the same treatment.

You tip your hand, Luis as an academic type. You apparently think history is controlled by the grave robbers who bring artifacts to the Museum and the monkish types who worship in the cloistered stacks of the Library (unaware it was burned in Alexandria long ago).

Hmm, nobody called me an "academic type" before... It has a nice ring to it though. :bows: I rather take the grave robbers that make educated guesses based on their findings than fabricating and finding all my conclusions in my thick-boned attic...

So what is my historical background to my explanation--the oral history of these universal and global insights of 6th Century BCE available to all through many traditions. So it is by philosophical induction from Pythagoras (who also is known only by fragments and illustrations in other texts as the Later Heaven arrangement is) that I claim all the historical background required.

Required for your conclusions, you mean... If you read what's really bothering Michael you'll find that is a question of why the sequence of moves "1.e4 e5 2.Qh5 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Qxf7#" is called a "Scholar's Mate" or vice-versa. And for that, you don't only need to know where the pieces will move on the board but where the funny name came from and the logic behind the ordering. He's wasn't interested in a "philosophical" explanation but seeking the "logic" (as in "mathematical logic"). That's why I said that your explanation would not have answered his question as he had already dismissed many other valuable opinions of the same sort as yours.

Your complaint is then reduced to the whine that you are still committed to the concrete musings of your articles and library publications without interest in opening up to the opportunities of the New timing nowadays.

So, you now presume to know what's in my head and how it works with what I learn? :D That's the thing, I'm not committed to anything. I've read many, and I mean "many", explanations (yours added, thank you) of the ordering of the trigrams. What I've said is that, so far, the explanation put forward by Cammann is the most attractive to me.

Let me try a bit of old style logic for you and Michael (and ghost buddy makes three)...

1) After much study and long pondering it is impossible to find a cogent explanation for the Later Heaven Bagua in terms of the premises and assumptions held.

2) The Later Heaven Bagua is an important part of the I Ching Cannon (cf. Wilhelm Book II Discussion of the Trigrams).

3) Therefore, by logical deduction, the long held premises and assumptions must be insufficient or erroneous. Q.E. D.

Now, read above. What's wrong with that? Think hard. If you find nothing wrong with it, perhaps we shouldn't be discussing this any further.

When there are no readily available Establishment Academic Library volumes, it is generally considered important to go find new stuff and publish it. I have done that in my post. Its historical roots are my other work, such as my website, going back into the '70's ---all that is now historical background too.

You realize that 30 some years is a sneeze compared with a few millennia, don't you? It applies to everybody that dismissing history as a matter of quantity vs quality (perceived or otherwise) is arrogant at best... :D

So, you need to explain more fully why my historical background isn't really historical background just because it puts your historical background into perspective and exposes its flaws, bad assumptions and errors in high contrast? Though it would explain why you are driven to mariachi music and strong drink to maintain denial.

Not to mention an unhealthy dosage of sarcasm... :rofl: OTOH, you are the Dr... :D
 

getojack

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Hi getojack,
Ok, I get lost between "linear sequence" and trigrams in a circle.

Well, what is a circle other than a linear sequence that folds back on itself? If you are confused about something in particular, it would help if you could be more specific.

I also get lost between 5 elements which in Chinese usage seems to be 4 perpendicular corners and the center and the organization of five equal independent things in a set.

These are really two separate things... 1) the hidden 5 in the center of the Later Heaven bagua, which can be seen by looking at the computations as I outlined... and 2) the 5 Elements Theory, which came later and was probably based on the reverence of the ancient Chinese for the number 5.

And most of all, I get confused on why the notion of opposite patterns have to have special placement in the Later Heaven.

Because the Lo Shu numbering is inextricably tied to the trigrams. On the other hand, your point is well taken... remember that this analysis is only about 3 days old, so in the future, I expect that I will use the same analysis to look at patterns of inverted trigrams as well as patterns of opposite trigrams. Also, I plan to look at other bagua... including, of course, the Fu Xi bagua and others.
 

lienshan

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It is this that is explained in Cammann's "The Origin of the Trigram Circles in Ancient China", in a more clear and convincing way than in any other literature I've found so far in the West (and I've read a lot...) If he's wrong or not, who knows. I actually liked his conclusions.
Trigrams.jpg

hi sparhawk ... is there a specific reason why Cammann treat the trigram-sequence counterclockwise?
His explanation too works clockwise in the order

:!! Dui !!! Qian ::! Zhen !:! Li :!: Kan !!: Xun ::: Kun !:: Gen

The clockwise order begins like the socalled "Lake-sequence" with :!! !!! Lake above Heaven (hex 43)

lienshan
 

getojack

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hi getojack ... thanks for showing your calculations :)

A maybe foolish question: Where is my position? The 1-Forward/1-Back position looks to me like between the hexagrams Thunder and Wind, while the 2-Forward/2-Back position looks like either in Heaven or on Earth? Do your calculations function, if the structurally opposite trigrams are e.g.

1) Thunder-Wind: 1-Forward/7-Back Opposites
1a) Wind-Thunder: 7-Forward/1-Back Opposites
2) Earth-Heaven: 2-Forward/6-Back Opposites
2a) Heaven-Earth: 6-Forward/2-Back Opposites
3) Lake-Mountain: 3-Forward/5-Back Opposites
3a) Mountain-Lake: 5-Forward/3-Back Opposites
4) Fire-Water: 4-Forward/4-Back Opposites
4a) Water-Fire: 4-Forward/4-Back Opposites

lienshan

It doesn't actually matter what name you give to the trigram relationships... what's important is the categories themselves... if that makes any sense.
 

fkegan

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Well, what is a circle other than a linear sequence that folds back on itself? If you are confused about something in particular, it would help if you could be more specific.

[Oh, now I understand, you mean the sequence along the circumference, measured in radians as it were--OK ]

These are really two separate things... 1) the hidden 5 in the center of the Later Heaven bagua, which can be seen by looking at the computations as I outlined... and 2) the 5 Elements Theory, which came later and was probably based on the reverence of the ancient Chinese for the number 5.
[ I wonder where the set of 5 things theory rules the 8 trigrams in order. The Ramsey number for 5 is a pentagram I believe. The Chinese seem to use 5 as 4 cardinal points and center. The quincunx pattern (dear to dice cubes and such) also puts one dot in the center with 4 around it. But given your premise your conclusions should follow. As you are able to also work your pattern with Leibniz binary numbers, you show you are doing a binary number interpretation of the Bagua.]

Because the Lo Shu numbering is inextricably tied to the trigrams. On the other hand, your point is well taken... remember that this analysis is only about 3 days old, so in the future, I expect that I will use the same analysis to look at patterns of inverted trigrams as well as patterns of opposite trigrams. Also, I plan to look at other bagua... including, of course, the Fu Xi bagua and others.

Hi getojack,
There remains the question from the original post by M.Earlewine long ago (not millennia or even decades, but months and he has since moved on to new projects)
I have been trying to understand the origin, nature, and ordering of the eight trigrams, in particular as they appear in the Former and Later Heaven sequences.
which seems in that rich middle slice in 2007 to have devolved into trigram dances--of which yours seems very elegant. I find it ironic since Earlewine is a major astrologer and I have in my mind from when I was wondering about this circle of trigrams back in the day that it seemed clearly based in the premises of the horoscope. The traditional directional explanations are horoscope and house positions.

In any event, the great divide in thinking about these comparisons of Early and Later Trigram Bagua is whether the later is just another variant on the former or was there a massive paradigm shift where the lines and numbers were part of the older sequence and the new sequence was philosophy based. This latter view sees the Later Heaven and King Wen Sequence as different from anything in the older Bagua as the Sumerian clay models of trade goods in their sealed clay wrap are from written language now.

In the latter view, the traditional statement that the Earlier Heaven refers to Heavenly organization while the Later refers to the way things are on Earth is literally correct. The earlier Bagua gives idealized math sequences in a circle like the apparent rotation of the stars in the Heavens. The later Bagua refers to the organization of human life and perception from a totally different perspective and principles.

But again, if you are going to do the other perspective you seem to be carrying it off well.

Hi Luis,
You seem to have missed my Pythagorean reference. This work is several millennia ago, so we are all dealing with things of similar antiquity. The major difference is you connect to the library references while I prefer the subjective lineage. The rest we are getting hung up in sparring. We have expressed, exposed and exhausted that quite enough for me.

Lienshan has expressed enough of the Cammann system to explain why you find it interesting and I find it so easy to reject. I would suggest you read the literature on paradigm changes and the things that go on when the Old guard hang on to the old paradigms after newer ones have made them obsolete. You seem to have a great set of epicycles in the works. Of course, in paradigm studies, the question of interest is what is it that the Old guard is so committed to that they will do all those contortions to keep their premises despite logic and example. Remember, syllogisms of deductive logic are only absolute in abstract studies, like geometry, in everything else they are from Aristotle and thus only powerful rhetorical devices. But to ask that question is to have the answer jump out and that does again come to the same conclusion--nothing more to discuss.


Hi Lienshan,
Thank you for presenting and going over Cammann, explaining it enough so I can see his system and how it differs from other ideas-- which Luis couldn't manage to do.:)

Frank
 

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Trigrams.jpg

hi sparhawk ... is there a specific reason why Cammann treat the trigram-sequence counterclockwise?
His explanation too works clockwise in the order

:!! Dui !!! Qian ::! Zhen !:! Li :!: Kan !!: Xun ::: Kun !:: Gen

The clockwise order begins like the socalled "Lake-sequence" with :!! !!! Lake above Heaven (hex 43)

lienshan

Hi Lienshan,

Not sure what you're talking about. Do you refer to the Lo Shu and Ho Tu derived "crosses" that Cammann theorizes were used in the creation of the King Wen Sequence of the trigrams (Later Heaven shown in the posted picture)?? Of which, BTW, historically there were TWO as there was an earlier trigram sequence attributed to KW, somewhat similar to the one we accept. Do you have the actual Cammann's BMFEA article?

And, Frank, don't confuse "inability" with "not wanting to"... I find your prejudicial, self-absorbed close-mindedness with your own work and conclusions non-conducive to open exchanges. You have approached the whole issue, since I first mentioned the work of Cammann as a good study reference (not as gospel, mind you), not with curiosity but with disdain, while ignorant of the contents of said work. As if you were about to enter in some pissing contest with him for potentially having a differing POV. For you there was no curiosity but another POV to debate down to ridicule. As for myself, I refuse pissing contests by proxy and thus my refusal to discuss his work publicly as I'm not here to defend anybody's theories but my own. The fact that I like Cammann's ideas doesn't make them my own, don't you think? If ever seriously curious, it is out there to find and study.
 
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fkegan

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Hi Luis,
What upset you so? I said that I Googled SC and found two references to a page or so of his work, which I noted was strongly of the ilk I found not persuasive. I asked for you to explain what was the fuller exposition of his ideas and you replied they were expensive and you wouldn't describe the ideas. Now I see and hear these descriptions of similar work and references to SC and I find it more of this binary number line stuff from pre-Chou systems. OK. I am curious about it, but having done my share of academic research, I don't want all the tedious detail that ends up just saying the same things in a way that is only different to those making such references and differences to produce more papers under publish and perish rules.

I find my work based upon Pythagoras (and poem 42 Lao Tzu) a richer tradition that actually explains all these things and also explains the quantum leap and total difference of the Chou innovations that spread around the world by 6th century BCE.

What makes you feel you are being disadvantaged in a pissing contest? Certainly not me or my attitude toward binary number trigram analysis. Why are you attacking me for asking for and seeking out all available information on SC's system that you touted well, but refused to explain. Because I gleaned enough information to see it is not a difference in kind from other explanations of the Bagua or because I presented a completely different explanation. What do you have against King Wen based explanations of the Later Heaven? Or just against me?

I just advocate my perspective and indicate where I feel it differs (and thus is better) than the other stuff. I accept that if Shang trigram number symbolism is to be taken as primary, then the other perspectives, including mine are radical new ideas unproven in that they are recent relative to the Shang. A little respect all around would be appreciated. :)

Frank
 

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Not sure what you're talking about. Do you refer to the Lo Shu and Ho Tu derived "crosses" that Cammann theorizes were used in the creation of the King Wen Sequence of the trigrams (Later Heaven shown in the posted picture)?? Of which, BTW, historically there were TWO as there was an earlier trigram sequence attributed to KW, somewhat similar to the one we accept.
Do you have the actual Cammann's BMFEA article?
No, I havn't, but I have a Michael Erlewine link illustrated by a BaGua with the trigram Mountain named Zheng and the trigram Thunder named Gen?

http://lessons.astrology.com/course/show/The-Art-of-Feng-Shui/1752-The-Lo-Shu-Diagram-or-Houtian

I'm talking about the pattern of whole and broken lines when following the trigram order shown vertical.
Trigrams.jpg

The upper line pattern is - : - : - : - : the middle line is - - : : - - : : and the bottom line is - - - - : : : :
This counterclockwise pattern looks perfect organized and so do a clockwise too, because the only difference is, that the upper line pattern is : - : - : - : - while the middle and bottom patterns are the same. Does the clockwise view work with Cammann's "cross-theory"?

lienshan
 

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No, I havn't, but I have a Michael Erlewine link illustrated by a BaGua with the trigram Mountain named Zheng and the trigram Thunder named Gen?

http://lessons.astrology.com/course/show/The-Art-of-Feng-Shui/1752-The-Lo-Shu-Diagram-or-Houtian

I'm talking about the pattern of whole and broken lines when following the trigram order shown vertical.


Hi Lienshan,

Thanks for the link, although, the diagram designed by MErlewine is incorrect: you always read the received Hou Tian Tu (后天圖) from the inside (center) out. You'll notice that the East quadrant of that diagram in Erlewine's article has been switched to read from the outside in. The correct one is the one in the B&W picture you showed that comes from the Wikipedia entry on "Bagua". The vertical arrangement in that diagram is only an ordering of the trigram family by the lower line showing an association to Qian and Kun. It is one of the accepted "family" arrangements of the trigrams. As far as I know, MErlewine is unaware of the work I suggested to read. I've never received any feedback from him about it.
 

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Thanks for the link, although, the diagram designed by MErlewine is incorrect: you always read the received Hou Tian Tu (后天圖) from the inside (center) out. You'll notice that the East quadrant of that diagram in Erlewine's article has been switched to read from the outside in.
hi sparhawk

The diagram of Michael Erlewine works, if he switch the Xun and Dui trigrams. The later Heaven arrangement can actually be read from the outside in without violating the two system structure of "1-2-3-4 steps".
(the complementary system starting with Zhen-Xun and the line system starting with Qian-Dui)

The vertical arrangement in that diagram is only an ordering of the trigram family by the lower line showing an association to Qian and Kun. It is one of the accepted "family" arrangements of the trigrams.
How many accepted "family" arrangements of the trigrams exist?

lienshan
 
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Sparhawk

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The diagram of Michael Erlewine works, if he switch the Xun and Dui trigrams. The later Heaven arrangement can actually be read from the outside in without violating the two system structure of "1-2-3-4 steps".
(the complementary system starting with Zhen-Xun and the line system starting with Qian-Dui)

Perhaps it works if you know what you are looking at and try to find the correspondences. That doesn't mean the diagram is drawn correctly, and, the Accepted Later Heaven Bagua is always read from the inside out. That is, the lower line of the trigrams is the one closest to the center. So, for somebody who is new to the concept of the Bagua, that diagram is misleading.

How many accepted "family" arrangements of the trigrams exist?
Schuyler Cammann counts three that are applicable to the Baguas (Fuxi and Wen Wang). There are others, such as the one in the diagram from Wikipedia. This diagram comes from:
Chinese Hexagrams, Trigrams, and the Binary System
Schuyler Cammann
Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society, Vol. 135, No. 4. (Dec., 1991), pp. 576-589.
SCamman-FamilySystems02-600.gif
 
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frank_r

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Hello Jack, Thanks for explaining, but some remarks and questions.

It's clear from this that the Later Heaven Bagua were representative of a number system consisting of 5 Elements. Those Five Elements were placed in the sequence so that trigrams on the extreme ends would be opposite trigrams... in other words, the part of the sequence that runs... Fire, Earth, Lake, Heaven, Water. If you look at those five trigrams from the outside of the circle, you can see: Fire, Earth, Wood, Heaven, Water... so there it is, the Five Elements in the Eight Trigrams with the Lo Shu numbers.... a system within a system within a system... in a nutshell.

You are mentioning Fire, Earth, Lake, Heaven, water. And then the circle, Fire, Earth, Wood, Heaven, Water. Do you mean Fire, Earth, Metal(Lake), Metal(heaven) , Water?

And which numbers do you mean with the Lo Shu numbers? water - 1, earth- 2, thunder- 3 etc
I don't understand the logic of your steps. Can you explain yourself further? Thanks

Frank(the other one)
 

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Hello Jack, Thanks for explaining, but some remarks and questions.

You are mentioning Fire, Earth, Lake, Heaven, water. And then the circle, Fire, Earth, Wood, Heaven, Water. Do you mean Fire, Earth, Metal(Lake), Metal(heaven) , Water?

And which numbers do you mean with the Lo Shu numbers? water - 1, earth- 2, thunder- 3 etc
I don't understand the logic of your steps. Can you explain yourself further? Thanks

Frank(the other one)

Hello Dutch Frank,

The Lo Shu numbers I was referring to are the ones that you get when you overlay the Lo Shu square on the Fu Xi bagua... 1=Earth, 2=Wind, 3=Fire, 4=Lake, 6=Mountain, 7=Water, 8=Thunder, 9=Heaven.

And yes, the trigrams I was referring to are the 5 on the right half of the Later Heaven Bagua: Fire, Earth, Lake, Heaven, and Water. If you invert these 5, you get Fire, Earth, Wind, Heaven, Water... or in the 5 Elements cosmology: Fire, Earth, Wood, Metal, Water.
 

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Schuyler Cammann counts three that are applicable to the Baguas (Fuxi and Wen Wang). There are others, such as the one in the diagram from Wikipedia.
hi sparhawk; thanks for your explanations :) Cammanns "family" order c looks like the Mawangdui Zhouyi:

http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/HuangLao2.html

Another question: Is the Shuo Kua trigram order not a "family" order or applicable to the Baguas?

Wing Eight, Chapter Two, section Three:
Heaven and Earth determine the direction
The forces of Mountain and Lake are united.
Thunder and Wind arouse each other.
Water and Fire do not combat each other.

lienshan
 

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Hello everyone, just stumbled into this fascinating forum and thread.

Is this the only thread in the World discussing the rationale for the existence of the Later Heaven trigram arrangement? If there is any other, please let me know so that my curiosity can be further satisfied.

Warmest regards to all! Yours truly, :bows:
 

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