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Hexagram 15. Ch'ien / Modesty

dobro p

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Frank, it's only the way you describe if that's the way your life is set up. But until you figure out that what going on *inside* you is more important than what's going on around you, 15.6 can just as easily be other people's heads. That's the beauty of the Yi - it can apply to *any* level of *any* situation you point it at.
 

frank_r

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dobro said:
Frank, it's only the way you describe if that's the way your life is set up. But until you figure out that what going on *inside* you is more important than what's going on around you, 15.6 can just as easily be other people's heads. That's the beauty of the Yi - it can apply to *any* level of *any* situation you point it at.

Yes, I agree, I'm not saying that your opinion is wrong only that I have a different one.

In the text of Wilhelm there is also the part: To chastise one's own city and one's country.
He's speaking to look first to own's one ego, and having the courage to marshal one's armies against oneself.

For me modesty of the wise one is more about eliminating negetivity and helping others than chopping there heads off. That will only come back to yourself in the long run, for me modesty has nothing to do with punishing others for your own mistakes.
 

rosada

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I am assuming that the order the hexagrams have been arranged in is meaningful. That is, that there is a reason 10. Treading leads to 11. Peace and then Stagnation, Fellowship, Possession, Modesty and then to Enthusiasm and so forth. In my own mind I explain is as 10 being the Ultimate, the voice of I Ching saying "Whomp. This is definitely how it is." This very clear definite ruling - while it may tolerate a little kidding around - knows exactly what the truth is and leads to 11.Peace as in, when you know the truth there's no more dickering, you can be at Peace. Of course this time of blissful certitude slowly disintegrates into Stagnation as the mind can't stay inactive for long and starts to feel bored and starts questioning again. Only now the Fool suspects he may not be the only fool in the room, and sure enough by chatting with his surrounding buddies a Fellowship developes where folks realize that while none of us may have all the answers we can pool what we know and have more together than we have alone: Possession in Great Measure. The confidence that comes from having friends and possessions creates the courage to walk one's own walk and not be jealous or envious of any other traveler, indeed it inspires a desire not to become unduly attracted to or involved in anyone else's path, yet it also includes the desire to stay connected with one's fellow travelers. Thus 15 is the Modesty that keeps one from getting too far a head or falling too far behind and allows one to share in the group Enthusiasm.
With this plot line in mind I do not find 15.6 to be a call to chastise others, because it comes just at the moment when the energies are looking to syncronize/harmonize with others, to morph into 16, The Band.
 

rosada

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Occurs to me now that perhaps the energies at 15.6 have reached such a peak that there is a TEMPTATION at this time to lash out against others. Say for example that the discipine of Modesty has created a truly gifted artist. Like a master musician/conductor who know's he's right and would be quite justified in firing the whole orchestra. Yet this would be counter productive so the advice is, "Even though at line 6 the time of Modesty has passed and you know it's not being immodest to know you know better than anyone else and now you want to lash out at others, keep your modesty a little bit longer and continue to work on yourself."
 
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lightofreason

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rosada said:
I am assuming that the order the hexagrams have been arranged in is meaningful. That is, that there is a reason 10. Treading leads to 11. Peace and then Stagnation, Fellowship, Possession, Modesty and then to Enthusiasm and so forth. .

the natural sequence, deriving hexagrams from recursion of yin/yang, is the binary sequence. You get a lot more about structure etc from that (and the XOR material developed from that focus)

The traditional sequence is derived the same way (demonstrated by the presence of pairs, 01,02 03,04, 05,06 etc) but has a different focus.

There are MANY other sequences (see http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icmatrix.html )

For a covering of the traditional sequence pairs etc see http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/cracked.html

As such, the natural sequence focuses on recursion of qualities of 01/02. The traditional more on recursing the qualities of 01/64 but we are dealing with qualities, not lines - it is like ordering emotions to communicate 'something' and so we ignore the sequence lines etc

The IC as a whole is a language and all possible sequences are 'expressions' of relationships described using that language. Context brings out the relationships.

The 'traditional' sequence is an example of dogma, of something particular, specialist, being generalised and taken as if the whole when it is in fact a part. As such the 10th century BC perspective is 'limited' but strongly traditional and often interpreted in a religious manner.

Note that beneath the 64 hexagrams are the 4096 dodecagrams (64 dodecagrams are expressed thorough each hexagram, they are compressed into the "64 hexagrams with changing lines" perspective)

Chris.
 
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lightofreason

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just to add issues on pairs - self-referencing of a dichotomy guarantees sequences made up of pairs. BUT there are 'gaps' inbetween the pairs such that hexagrams either side of a gap are not on as equal footing as their are with their natural partner :)

E.g. in the traditional sequence the first octet is 01 to 08 but this is derived top-down and so we can interpret by folding, rotating etc. e.g.

(01,02)(03,04)(05,06)(07,08)

(01,02) to (03,04)
(01,02) to (07,08)
(03,04) to (05,06)
(05,06) to (07,08)

Then come variations on a theme:

01,02,03,04 (pair as column entries)
05,06,07,08

and so on - the methodology of analysis of any recursively derived sequence of hexagrams is the same and so methods of the binary can be applied to the traditional etc where the clue to the methodology is in the pairings.

Thus in the ordering of 02,03 there is a 'gap' present, 03 does not follow on from 02 as 02 does from 01 - the sequence appears to have been derived top down rather than left-to-right.
 
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bruce_g

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Line 6 prohibits the use of excuses, such as false modesty or pride.
 

hilary

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One thing we can easily lose sight of, calling 15 'modesty' or 'humility' with its Christian associations, is that in fact it's a tremendous source of power to accomplish things. Look at the 'how to win friends and influence people (and heaven, earth and the spirits)' passage in the commentary on the Judgement.

Or, as Rosada suggests, look at the sequence. We learn to relate to energies greater than ourselves in hexagram 10. We participate in dynamic creative harmony in hexagram 11, and learn about life outside the flow state in hexagram 12. We come together against the odds in 13, and create real wealth (14) out of harmony between people. Our wealth is whatever we can share and exchange with others.

'Great possession means arrogance is not possible, and so qian follows.'
Arrogance isn't possible, or arrogance just doesn't work. If we see ourselves in true perspective, in realistic proportion with everything and everyone else, then we can be effective. The noble one gets things done.

I think line 6 might be the natural outcome of the theme that by being nothing more or less than yourself, you inevitably have real influence. You become an inspiration - and then we're on the way into hexagram 16, where there's also an army to mobilise.
 

martin

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Yes, the feel that I get from hexagram 15 has little to do with 'modest' or 'humble' behavior towards others.
I think that typical 15-persons are not concerned with social hierarchies and appropriate behavior in such hierarchies. Or with glamour or lack of glamour. Hollywood is a non-issue for them.
They focus on what is real and what their are doing. And if they are convinced that they have 'reality' on their side they may very well behave 'immodest'.
 

dobro p

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frank_r said:
Yes, I agree, I'm not saying that your opinion is wrong only that I have a different one.

In the text of Wilhelm there is also the part: To chastise one's own city and one's country.
He's speaking to look first to own's one ego, and having the courage to marshal one's armies against oneself.

For me modesty of the wise one is more about eliminating negetivity and helping others than chopping there heads off. That will only come back to yourself in the long run, for me modesty has nothing to do with punishing others for your own mistakes.

Okay, but what if the heads in question are something like the ones Bruce is describing when he says: "Line 6 prohibits the use of excuses, such as false modesty or pride."
 
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lightofreason

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martin said:
Yes, the feel that I get from hexagram 15 has little to do with 'modest' or 'humble' behavior towards others.
I think that typical 15-persons are not concerned with social hierarchies and appropriate behavior in such hierarchies. Or with glamour or lack of glamour. Hollywood is a non-issue for them.
They focus on what is real and what their are doing. And if they are convinced that they have 'reality' on their side they may very well behave 'immodest'.

When we focus on 15s spectrum, the infrastructure, the 'mud' or skeletal form (27-ness) that is filled out to become 15 is described by analogy to the generic, vague, characteristics of 22 - and so the sense of covering up, facading, hiding the inside by drawing attention to the outside as so the look of 'modesty'.

The look of 15 is covered in its 22-ness and so we have:

001000
101001
--------
100001 - 27 - all we see is infrastuctural in that modesty 'regulates' exaggerations, makes them potentials. As such the quality control focus on being wary of what one takes in.

Implicit on this is that on the INSIDE we see properties of 28 - a focus on excess in the form of going beyond the norm, going the extra distance - which is what 15 does in the form of covering up, to reduce the highs and fill in the lows is high energy stuff - and all 'in here' to appear 'modest'.

24-ness gives us the beginnings of 15 or more so what it keeps coming back to - and that is 36 - darkening of the light, covering up 'in here' being the first act.

This is an interesting one - the 'correct' steps, sequence, through 15 are described in its 63-ness to give us:

001000
101010
--------
100010 - 3 - sprouting, the initial steps (reduce highs, fill in lows) are difficult but things then develop (grow)

etc etc etc

Chris.
 

frank_r

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dobro said:
Okay, but what if the heads in question are something like the ones Bruce is describing when he says: "Line 6 prohibits the use of excuses, such as false modesty or pride."

Yes, what would be the best behaviour with false modesty or pride. That's a good one.

Maybe It's tempting to chop of there heads, and in a sense I think figuratively speaking that's the best way.
Yesterday I heard a saying, that there will more change with the ink from a pen than with the blood of a martyr. And in that sense I'm agreeing.
 

martin

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lightofreason said:
When we focus on 15s spectrum, the infrastructure, the 'mud' or skeletal form (27-ness) that is filled out to become 15 is described by analogy to the generic, vague, characteristics of 22 - and so the sense of covering up, facading, hiding the inside by drawing attention to the outside as so the look of 'modesty'.

Well, that is the question. Is there really facading or hiding in hexagram 15? Does 15 wear a mask, so to speak?
I seems to me that 15 behaves how it is and is how it behaves. No difference between the inside and the outside. What you see is what you get.
15-types (or people in a state of mind that corresponds to hex 15) are honest and realistic about themselves and this may sometimes give the impression of 'modesty' but it has nothing to do with modesty, I think.
 

dobro p

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frank_r said:
Yes, what would be the best behaviour with false modesty or pride. That's a good one.

Maybe It's tempting to chop of there heads, and in a sense I think figuratively speaking that's the best way. Yesterday I heard a saying, that there will more change with the ink from a pen than with the blood of a martyr. And in that sense I'm agreeing.

Yes, if applied outwardly in the world, then I agree with you completely. (The violence in Baghdad makes me sick.)

But as you point out, the Yi can speak figuratively. (In fact, for me, the Yi *always* speaks figuratively.) And applied inwardly (psychologically) 15.6 has to do with forcefully reducing negative elements, I think. Bruce mentioned false modesty or pride, and of course that's true. I think of those things as forms of lying. Then there's useless daydreams and deluded illusion; anger and criticism and complaint; fear and self-pity. Seeing these things and dealing with them can be one form of what 15.6 is talking about, I think. And getting rid of these things is sometimes (not always, but it's possible sometimes) a matter of seeing them so clearly that you just let go of them cuz you know how useless or harmful they are. When I say 'off with their heads' I'm exaggerating for comic effect. Unless nobody thinks it's funny. lol
 
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lightofreason

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martin said:
Well, that is the question. Is there really facading or hiding in hexagram 15? Does 15 wear a mask, so to speak?
I seems to me that 15 behaves how it is and is how it behaves. No difference between the inside and the outside. What you see is what you get.
15-types (or people in a state of mind that corresponds to hex 15) are honest and realistic about themselves and this may sometimes give the impression of 'modesty' but it has nothing to do with modesty, I think.

Martin,

I may fill in more details later BUT:

In the natural BINARY order of hexagrams we have eight octets, each octet grounded in one of the trigrams working as base.

For the octet in which 15 resides (mountain trigram) we have:

15,52 39,53 62,56 31,33

Due to the self-referencing in derivation of the sequence, each octet is a 'mini sequence' where the same characteristics as the main sequence can be utilised for interpretation of the hexagram relationships in the octet.

Thus as 02-01 in the main sequence complement each other, so in the octet of mountain we have the same interaction of 15-33

As 15 covers up, 33 reveals, but not much, just enough to entice. In fact the PAIR of 15,52 has a covering up nature as does the pair of 31,33 have un covering a little to entice nature. Thus the extremes of 15, manifest in 33, still maintain a 'covering up' where here only a little is revealed.

As the infrastructure of 15 is mapped to 22, and ITS focus on covering the outside to draw attention away from the inside, so the infrastructure of 33 is mapped to 49, where the focus is on unmasking, revelation etc.

These are not coincidences - they reflect properties of the methodology of self-referencing where all is connected and so we can get the IC to tell us about itself - BUT these are all GENERAL, universal perspectives, where local context then adds 'colour'.

Your comments on personalities are a little misleading in that there is no SINGULAR 'type 15', there are PARTICULAR 'type 15s' and these correlate to the MBTI 'type' of XNFJ (mountain in general) - in 15 we have XNFP (earth) operating WITHIN the context set by XNFJ as a particular category covering many 'singulars' and yet being none (Since all singulars are unique ;-))

The semantics links given above of 22 to 15, 33 to 15, 49 to 33 etc etc STRONGLY support the hard-coded nature of 15 brought out in its spectrum where the sense of modesty covers levelling-out, evening-out etc but we also note the spectral focus on 'look' where inside is excess in trying to 'level out' the outside look; there is a lot of energy trying to maintain the modesty and so indicative of of a degree of idealism - this is also true for the XNFJ type (mentor, slightly conserving of nature due to experiencing little 'betrayals' - and in 52 this is particular in the form of suffering loss etc and so a discernment nature.

The eight hexagrams in the octet cover eight variations in expression of the XNFJ type. These types make good mentor-style teachers, strong focus on quality control and gaining from suffering.

Note - for each octet the yin-yang extremes are:

11-01
19-10
36-13
24-25
46-44
07-06
15-33
02-12

yin is more into protection/cooperative, yang into exploitation/competitive. You can work with all pairs within the octet - e.g. for 15,52 39,53 62,56 31,33

you have:

15-33
52-31
39-56
53-62


Chris
 
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martin

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Well, this is what your algebra :) tells you and I can follow the logic, it seems internally consistent. But I'm not sure if the resulting portrait of hexagram 15 is accurate.

My earlier statement that hexagram 15 has 'nothing to do' with modesty was perhaps too strong but I still don't see 'modesty as a mask' in the hexagram. If we want to use the word 'modest' then I would say that hexagram 15 is modest 'to the core'. There is no covering up, no hiding, IMO.

I looked up what Brad says about 15 and he calls it 'authenticity'. That comes very close to what I think 15 means. And authenticity doesn't 'facade', it does what it is.
'keeping words close to the underlying facts' (your Eranos quote) hints at something similar. There is no distortion in the expression.

What do others here think of the 'modesty' of hexagram 15?
Is it a cover up, a mask? Is it pretended? Or is it 'real'?
 
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hilary

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It's real. No masks - not for other people, not even for oneself. (The I Ching Chris ends up with is not always the same as the 10th century BC version...)
 
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lightofreason

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martin said:
Well, this is what your algebra :) tells you and I can follow the logic, it seems internally consistent. But I'm not sure if the resulting portrait of hexagram 15 is accurate.

It is spot on since it comes from the IC itself. The issue is that, being a universal local customisation is needed to ground it in your singular perspective.

The algebra is not mine, it is a property of self-referencing - all i have done is discover it, bring it to attention.

The struggles most of the traditionalists make in trying to understand the meaning of a hexagram stem from ego trying to do better than the science! ;-) simply put, 1 + 1 = 2 and that is where all of this comes from, that degree of determinism where you can do no better since there is no better - 1 + 1 is always 2. THEN comes the local ground of 1 and 2 of WHAT? - thus one then moves into qualitative differences.

The nature of 15 as levelling-out, evening-out, expressing modesty by covering up etc is a fixed property, supported by all of the associations I have given. These are not associations of fancy, they are hard coded links, invarient, all due to the methodology in creating the hexagrams.

The XOR work etc is not 'my' work, it is a property of self-referencing discovered by me in analysis of meaning derivation through self-referencing.

As such the associations/interpretations are those of the IC on itself - just as you can describe yourself. THEN local context adds local colour (and so others interpretation of you based in their unique development of 'self')

Until you and Hilary and others start to understand what is going on here you will forever be stuck in the 10th century BC.

Chris.
 
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lightofreason

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hilary said:
It's real. No masks - not for other people, not even for oneself. (The I Ching Chris ends up with is not always the same as the 10th century BC version...)

Hilary, the 10th century BC version is primitive, inferior to what can be done with a 21st century AD version. The links/associations I gave above for 15 are spot on - the spectrum of a hexagram is 'real' and aids in describing the properties and methods of each hexagram as a universal. If you feel restricted by the determinism that is funny since you seek determinism and yet when it is shown to you run from it! LOL!

The 10th century BC form is narrow in scope, limited in understanding its own roots and riddled with superstition common for those ignorant of what they are dealing with. You may feel the traditional format is 'fine' for you and you can function in that world.

You can use it as much a you like, but it will not give you the full spectrum understanding possible when you include the last 3000 years of research into psyche and neurology etc. In other words as an interpreter you could be much better off, more refined in interpreting, more efficient, by understanding/utilising XOR and Emotional IC methods/perspectives - but there is a price in that accepting the work means a bit of a paradigm shift, a re-configuration of current beliefs and THAT can be 'upsetting'.

My point is, being AWARE of XOR and the Emotional IC dynamics and NOT recognising them does a HUGE dis-service to the I Ching, its promotion beyond its current perspective as some 'ancient chinese divination system' - which is what most so-called 'gurus' promote - be it you or Karcher or Marshall or Anthony or Wilhelm or Legge or LiSe or Harmen etc etc etc - there is a need by the interpreters for the maintaining of a spiritual sense when there is no need for such - in fact without it, recognising the spirit is that of our species - is more efficient in that it is not biased by personal religious perspectives where that perspective adds filtering upon filtering.

I keep telling you, and will keep telling you, and the work shows you, you do not know what you are dealing with. It is HUGE. AWSOME in scope, and all from US and our adaptation to the Universe.

You have access to all of this but deny it from fear of having to surrender some cherished, child-like, beliefs. Fine. But the material is free, and on the 'net. IT DOES require work but that is the idea - no spoon feeding. This is not for the light-hearted at the moment.

Chris.
 

martin

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I think you are immodest Chris, but it's not a mask. It's authentic! :D
 

martin

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What I find strange, Chris, is that you so often see deceit, dishonesty, etcetera in hexagrams.
Pretended modesty in hex 15, for example, and something 'sneaky' in hexagram 33: "33 reveals, but not much, just enough to entice."
Entice? Perhaps it is there in 33 but it is not the first thing that comes to my mind when I think about 33.

It is sometimes as if you are writing an IC for politicians or for people who wish to become even more paranoid than they already are. :)

Where does this come from? It's not the algebra, it seems, or the science that you use. Subjective?
 

rosada

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Dear Chris,
As I understand you, it appears you are saying you have discovered something in the I Ching that gives you a great deal of satisfaction. So much so that you would like others to share your viewpoint that they may also share your positive experience. It also appears that you have not been as successful as you would like to be in this sharing. I wonder if you have ever asked the I Ching, "How might I more effectivly share my discoveries?" I would be interest in knowing the results.

R.
 
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bruce_g

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rosada said:
Dear Chris,
As I understand you, it appears you are saying you have discovered something in the I Ching that gives you a great deal of satisfaction. So much so that you would like others to share your viewpoint that they may also share your positive experience. It also appears that you have not been as successful as you would like to be in this sharing. I wonder if you have ever asked the I Ching, "How might I more effectivly share my discoveries?" I would be interest in knowing the results.

R.

Chris doesn’t use divination. Each and every hexagram fits any question he would ask at any given time. There is no synchronistic event occurring. It is purely a neurological function of self referencing.
 
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bruce_g

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I can see the mask idea, in the sense of more going on inside than what is evident or seen on the outside. But the mask isn’t intended to hide anything - as 36 isn’t intended to harm anything - it’s just that there’s more than what meets the eye.

Isn't that how it feels when you meet a truly modest person? They have a reservoir inside, and their words and actions bubble up to the surface from that place. I've met some famous people, and they seemed to be divided into two distinct types. One was obviously insecure and the other unusually humble. I always got the feeling that the insecure one was "tapped out", while the humble one seemed to have great reserve.
 

dobro p

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martin said:
What do others here think of the 'modesty' of hexagram 15?
Is it a cover up, a mask? Is it pretended? Or is it 'real'?

The thing that Hex 15 refers to can cover both instances of mask or something more essential or honest. If somebody praises you and you respond: "No, no - anybody would and could have done the same," and you say that cuz THAT'S WHAT POLITE PEOPLE SAY WHEN THEY'RE PRAISED, then Hex 15 applies. You're reducing the praise coefficient. But if you reduce your expression of anger that arises out of a sense of righteous indignation (that's ego talking, right?), then that's Hex 15 too, even though nobody knows about it and even though there's no persona or role or mask involved. Just you and your own mind. But because you've reduced what's inflated, it's Hex 15.

In both instances, it involves taking somebody down a peg or reducing their importance, either in real terms or in self-image. Levelling. Demotion. Interestingly, this elevates, although it's not stated in so many words in the Yi. Jesus talked about it, though, when he talked about people coming to the feast and sitting at the foot of the table (Hex 15) and then being invited to sit at the head (the bit Hex 15 doesn't mention directly, but which is almost implied by the *very* positive nature of *every* line in the hexagram.
 

dobro p

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In other words, 'modesty' is included in the meaning of Hex 15, but it by no means covers the range of meaning contained in Hex 15. Like Chris, I think that there is *way* more to the meanings of hexagrams than meets the eye. I'm not familiar with the range of meanings that he's dealing with, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they didn't sit comfortably under the umbrella as well.
 
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lightofreason

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ALL hexagrams at the level of their singular expressions, and so context sensitive levels, contain BOTH positive and negative aspects. Thus 15 can be modesty as it can be false modesty ;-)

The ideal form, free of positive/negative colourings is VERY generic and covers contractive bonding (sharing of space with another/others) in which is operating contractive blending (a focus on wholeness through drawing in 'something' or 'someone' etc - darkness can do that ;-) - IOW zoom in on 'contractive blending' and we see the negative of the dark as we do the positive (the womb etc))

another example would be of the trigram of lake - it reflects (!) joy and a positive nature as it does narcissism etc. where the latter reflects the sharing of space with one's image!

Chris.
 

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