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Hexagram 44

clarissa

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I find this one of the most confusing. For example, line 4...Wilhelm commentary differs quite a bit from Bradford's. Bradford seems to show someone wanting the "fish"...but having an empty creel because of their own actions (or inactions?)...unless I'm completely misunderstanding it.
 

bradford_h

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if you're that much in need of the fish,
one way or another you need to master bait.
 

bradford_h

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The overall image of the gua is the kind of premature or unwanted dissipation or distraction provided by a random sexual encounter. It's avoiding entropy, as the king does in the image by repeating his commands. For me it's the 8 of Swords in Tarot. Fish are used in the Yi as symbols of the feminine gender (the palace ladies united in support in 23, and perhaps even piglets and fishes for sons and daughters in 61).
44.4 is a case where the avoidance of distraction, not having enough to do do with such encounters, has itself become the distraction. The Zhi Gua, 57, often suggests these self-reflexive problems that cause us to rethink our strategies when we bounce off the world instead of penetrating it.
We awaken to our unfortunate state (qi xiong) born out of our distancing others (yuan min, 44.4x).
 

void

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I've read that several times and I still don't get it Brad ? A while ago I asked about getting some money, I took it to mean there was none to be had - no fish - sure enough there was none - very depressing..but perhaps I missed the whole point if its about avoidance of distraction ??? Anyone got the patience to enlighten me ?
 

bradford_h

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Hi
Maybe what you were doing at the time was more pressing and more important to you than taking the steps necessary to get the money. If that was the case, it may have been suggesting that if it was money you wanted maybe that was where you should have been putting your focus. But if you considered making money a distraction from your higher purposes, then it was not the money's fault for not coming to you. The fish can be anything desired, or any distraction.
The Yi uses metaphors that have to be applicable to just about anything. In this case the sexual image of being at the mercy of a strong woman just happens to be a very powerful one for the author's purposes. It's just awfully anti-climatic when you need to turn around and apply such a fun answer to a question about chariot repair or your next paycheck.
 
B

bruce

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I see where Brad?s going with this, I think. It?s an interesting twist, and not so far removed from Wilhelm as one might think.

Wilhelm refers to the fish as an insignificant other which must be tolerated if they are to be helpful or useable at some more convenient time in the future.

I think what Brad?s saying here is that the money matter (in his example) was not as important as some higher, more dominating priority at the time. So when your car breaks down, you?re up the creek without a paddle. But that?s your own fault. You were seduced away from the essential to fulfill a lustful fantasy.

44 is a fascinating hexagram to me; more so as time goes on. LiSe and I have gone ?round and ?round on this one, and I?ve come to see the Gua in her light, as well as retaining my earlier view of it. The lustful fantasy may well become an essential element to birthing the king?s child.
 
B

bruce

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Just for the heck of it, I was thinking of an example. It just happens to be one from my own history.

A man marries early, has kids and holds down a responsible job. Then one day an old buddy from his high school band days calls. Someone asked this old friend if he could put a backup band together for some singer with a recording contract; and now he?s calling to see if the responsibly married man is interested in the part.

If the man decides to follow this opportunity (maiden), he could a) find fortune, fame and satisfaction following his bliss b) piss off his wife, who then becomes very suspicious of his time away from her c) lose both his wife and his bliss. d) lose his wife and move in with the blonde background singer.

Which would be ?the right? choice:

The morally acceptable one, that would maintain his high standing with the family, church and job?

Taking a chance of pissing off his wife, and making it to rehearsals, hoping she?ll understand?

Or, leaving his wife for the woman who will support his creative endeavors?


What heirs would each choice make? Sometimes the indecent brings the most fulfillment. Sometimes not.
 
M

micheline

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<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Or, leaving his wife for the woman who will support his creative endeavors?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

my gosh that is a very interesting set of questions. Is it morally acceptable not to follow your personal destiny if your destiny is calling?

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

d) lose his wife and move in with the blonde background singer. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
bruce springsteen did that. and they live happily ever after.

was this a choice you were asked to make, Bruce?
 
B

bruce

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It does shine light on the whole right and wrong subject, Micheline. I think that's a lot of what 44 is about. On the surface, the choice seems obvious, especially where character is weighed, but the heart and soul of the individual needs tending, as well.

Not only did Springsteen do it, most all successful people in the arts and entertainment field do it. A supportive and broad minded mate is pretty much a prerequisite in that business.

I chose the middle path, b. She never got over her suspicions, not even 30 years later. I left my dream behind at the peak of attainting my biggest opportunity, moved my family and began a "legitimate" career in broadcasting. But at least I stuck it out until the boys were grown and independent.

Regrets? mmmm yes/no. Would I choose to do it differently? mmm yes/no. Life seems to be a compromise. Still, I do wonder...
 
B

bruce

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There?s an underlying irony in this picture. My wife (then) intentionally went off the pill without telling me, and so I married her to bear a legitimate heir. The very 44 I succumbed to was the one that created the moral structure I would adhere to, in the name of what was right.
 

clarissa

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"44.4 is a case where the avoidance of distraction...has itself become the distraction."

Can you elaborate? Are you talking about someone who is going out of their way to avoid such encounters...to the point where it has become a problem? You mean something like...someone overly uptight, conservative, practical etc? Someone who needs to loosen up?
 

bradford_h

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Hi Clarissa-
I think that's part of it. Or too busy. Or frightened. Or "tracted" or undistracted.
Bottom line, there's an emptiness and nobody to blame it on but our subject, who hasn't really examined the whole problem yet. This needs to be looked at from various sides (zhi gua 57). This is just "dawning" on him (the qi in qi xiong) - the fish will not swim to him just because he now desires one. This needs to be among his wants now.
 

void

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Your above observations were most illuminating for me Brad - re the money question - (I had never really recovered from the bluntness of no fish in the bag,) hmm, since at the time it was most pressing for me to leave my job and my focus was certainly on other things, not money, not material things at all..I definately considered "money a distraction from your higher purposes.."nevertheless I could see I would need some fish, alas none were forthcoming....

I have some trouble equating your ideas Bruce of 'lustful fantasy' and destiny ?? Seems like you equate one with the other ?

My distraction was not to do with lust but may have or felt like it was to do with destiny, or maybe you can have a lust for destiny ? But the word lust always implies for me something wrong or forbidden, and how can following your destiny be wrong ?
 
B

bruce

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Void, a lustful fantasy, the way I?m using the term, can be synonymous with spiritual aspiration. My whole point was to debunk the concept of right and wrong in the superficial way we commonly define it ? and the way Wilhelm defines it, also.

It doesn't matter if you "do the right thing" if you do it for the wrong reason. And doing what is not socially acceptable, for the right reasons, can be the hero?s journey.
 

bradford_h

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Void

"and how can following your destiny be wrong ?"

Well, it certainly messes with other aspects of life. I imagine Gandhi's poor wife when he announces he's going to be celibate now. Although he likely was no stud muffin to begin with. Buddha abandoned his family. Of course it killed Jesus and a lot of others. Higher purpose usually exacts some price or compromise. Me, I'm just all out of fish.
 

luz

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"Although he likely was no stud muffin to begin with"

Lol!!

What if there is no higher purpose to begin with? What if it's all in your imagination? Wishful thinking! It sure sounds like wishful thinking, all those fantasies about the backup singer, Bruce!
 
B

bruce

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But I do agree with you, Angel. Following after the maiden could become, and most often does, a puff of smoke. That's why it's good to know her well before marrying her.
 

bradford_h

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People keep trying to comfort me, saying
"There's plenty of other fish in this tree"
But no matter how high I climb I don't see them
 

luz

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A booking agent? that is totally different!
You missed your big opportunity!!


And fish don't grow on trees!
 

bradford_h

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One of my favorite science writers, Loren Eisley, had a passage somewhere about floating down the Amazon and seeing some kind of fish looking down on him from up in the trees, and how very, very, very wrong that was.
 

kevin

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Brad

Not read the thread, yet... but seen a post or two...

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

People keep trying to comfort me, saying
"There's plenty of other fish in this tree"
But no matter how high I climb I don't see them<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Thanks for the image... chuckling... so very true!!!



Wonderful

--K
 
M

micheline

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<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

It doesn't matter if you "do the right thing" if you do it for the wrong reason. And doing what is not socially acceptable, for the right reasons, can be the hero?s journey.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

This topic is so interesting to me in big ways and little ways. Maybe on a different thread would be more appropriate, but I appreciate the way this stretches my understanding of hex 44.

I am thinking of prince charles and camilla. He did the socially acceptable thing by marrying Diana, and yet was it truly moral in light of his Great Temptation to be with the woman he really wanted.

Maybe to really be on the hero's journey is to renounce your worldly "throne" of social acceptance, choosing authenticity in spite of the costs. The hero's journey can be long and arduous. Do most choose to live behind the white picket fence of safety? NOt altogether unfulfilling, but still..

Is the fish a symbol for *commitment* or pure conviction, which, if they are lacking, spells disaster

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

It is necessary for elements predestined to be joined and mutually dependent to come to meet one another halfway. But the coming together must be free of dishonest ulterior motives, otherwise harm will result.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Then again, maybe all this has nothing to do with the price of fish (on trees). Or does it?
 
B

bruce

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Micheline,

I'm glad to see the same lights fire up in your head that this Gua has fired up in mine. I think it's one of those secret things that are kept only for the brave-hearted, and then only when there?s nothing left to lose.

Joe Campbell has written and recorded a great deal about The Hero's Journey, and was George Lucas' inspiration for Star Wars. Joe has much in common with Carl Jung, but has focused more on local legends and lore. Fascinating stuff.

Anyway, 44 separates the men from the mice, where dealing with morality is concerned. Easy answers are no longer easy, when you consider what?s at stake, in either direction or with either choice. It?s your kid you?re going bear, either way.
 

void

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This is an interesting thread for me too - I am beginning to see the point Brad and Bruce are making. New Age thinking has gotten to me too much and I forget how following your truth, your destiny can lead you into big trouble with your world, or the people in your world. By New Age thinking I mean a very loose collection of ideas from all over which generally give the idea that if you are walking the right path, your path, no great difficulties or obstructions will come your way. Thats just my perception of 'new age'. (Does anyone agree with this perception or is it something perculiar to me, that I picked up somewhere along the line ?)

Yet like Brad says above people have died for such, decisions a person makes to follow their destiny may be much discouraged and disaproved of or like Bruce says (i think)be considered wrong or immoral in the eyes of the society we live in.

Its all very interesting to me now as I have no fish, my family disaprove of me or think I'm crazy and I'm following on something I can't even define. I might be being heroic in my own little way OR I might just be a lazy bum who is avoiding reality. Ah well if destiny is destiny you couldn't avoid it even if you wanted to, could you ?
 

luz

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This is a very interesting subject for me too.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Maybe to really be on the hero's journey is to renounce your worldly "throne" of social acceptance, choosing authenticity in spite of the costs. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I personally don't ever feel like I'm on a hero's journey, but I very often find myself renouncing "my throne". Sometimes I worry that my kids have a weird mother, although I'm aware that I could be a lot weirder. But that's where the crux of the matter is, I think. Following your truth can be very much at odds with the responsabilities you have chosen to acquire. So maybe you shouldn't worry about social acceptance, but you are accountable to the other people in your life.. no?

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I might be being heroic in my own little way OR I might just be a lazy bum who is avoiding reality. Ah well if destiny is destiny you couldn't avoid it even if you wanted to, could you ?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Hey, I'm also accused of avoiding reality.. usually when I'm being lazy..
..

The question I have is: is it transcendental, the choice that you make? Will it change the big picture if you avoid reality or not, if you follow your dreams or not. As Micheline pointed out, if you chose conformism, it's not all that bad.. so.. what difference does it make - in the long run?
 

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