Hexagram 44

[bruce]

Ya choose your maiden and takes yer chances. But your or my choices do make a difference in our lives and in the lives we touch, for better, worse or something in-between.

 

[micheline]

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New Age thinking has gotten to me too much and I forget how following your truth, your destiny can lead you into big trouble with your world, or the people in your world. By New Age thinking I mean a very loose collection of ideas from all over which generally give the idea that if you are walking the right path, your path, no great difficulties or obstructions will come your way. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

"New age" thought is misinterpreted by many.....no path of true destiny, and certainly no hero's path, is free of obstruction/difficulties/tests of your mettle.
YOu gotta slay those dragons, ya know? BUt That makes it fun, too.

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Its all very interesting to me now as I have no fish, my family disaprove of me or think I'm crazy and I'm following on something I can't even define. I might be being heroic in my own little way OR I might just be a lazy bum who is avoiding reality.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

the doubts you feel may all well be part of the process. Remember the little ugly duckling? How sad to be alienated and ostracized by the people around you..how sad to be misunderstood.....

nobody arrives at the hero's destination without first having to discover and cultivate the essential faith in oneself..the ugly duckling did not know he was a swan.....for a long time he just wondered what the hell was wrong with him and why couldnt he fit in? BUt he kept moving...he kept looking, he kept being true to his inner call...

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Ah well if destiny is destiny you couldn't avoid it even if you wanted to, could you ?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
YES, you can!
I SO AGREE with Bruce. Our choices make a huge difference. The fulfillment of our destiny is not pre-slated. Maybe the blueprint is there, but the creation and execution is solely our choice to make, or NOT make. Sometimes we make the choice by default.

 

[void]

But in the end there is no where else for us to go but our own destiny. In a sense we can't get lost, without time we are already there. For me there is a paradox as in there is choice and no choice. Right now we experience choice, must do or we wouldn't consult Yi Jing I guess.

You bringing up ugly duckling tale was very synchronistic for me, as believe me I see that tale everywhere I go lately. When I was little it would make me cry - alot, and when I heard the song I was inconsolable.

Thanks to you all, this thread been good.

 

[luz]

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But in the end there is no where else for us to go but our own destiny. In a sense we can't get lost, without time we are already there. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I like that. I think I agree. In another thread, I think, there's this idea of being able to move, to be fluid, but within constraints. Like a river moves within the river bed..

 

[bruce]

Way I view pre-destiny vs. will, it all depends on from what position it?s viewed from. From the future looking back, it?s unchangeable. But from the present looking forward, choices shape our future. And since we live in the present...

I love life as a river image, Angel. So did Siddhartha. So does Kan.

 

[luz]

Yes, our choices make our destiny, no doubt about that. I tell my kids that all the time <chuckle>.

But when I wonder whether it all matters, I'm thinking about our ultimate destinies, the bigger picture, sort of. Our lives are such tiny little things. If we really trascend, if there is "more".. will it really matter which maiden I chose and what reasons were behind my choice? Regardless, one day I will reach the end, in spite of myself, in spite of the choices I make.. I think.

 

[bruce]

I agree, our lives are small, alone. But considering only one life we touch or affect, and the lives they touch and affect, and so on, maybe not so small as we think. From Kun, we just go with the plan. From Chien, we create it.

 

[peace]

I too have gotten confused with New Age thinking.
It can get very "magical" in thinking we have predestined karma and alot more control than we really do - very appealing to narcissism.

We do what we do, take care of what we take care of, get sick, die, have joy and touch a few lives.

At least that's the "ordinary" life I'm moving towards now.
I've had the drama, success, excitement and it kept me out of touch with reality.
Yesterday, I went to the car dealership and got a brake light changed - I waited my turn and sat and waited for it to get fixed. At one time I would have been annoyed - just like being put on hold about bills and insurance. It is what it is and everyone has to go through it.

Rosalie

 

[micheline]

Void,
I believe there is a touch of the ugly duckling in all of us, just as there is a hidden swan.
BUt some of us feel that sense of being "odd man out" more deeply than others. And many precious souls are born to families who have no idea what to make of them.
I think it is interesting that you call yourself VOID too. It reminds me of my childhood. there were times when I felt invisible. esp unseen for who I really was.

Anyway, you are a swan, Void, and I wish you well on your journey.

 

[ithaki]

Does it ultimately matter if I DO SOMETHING?
Free will, I can do this or that or nothing,
but it doesn't feel right unless ... what?
Unless it's true to what I am or in the process of becoming?

Does this somehow reconcile free will and 'destiny'?
I cannot go against my own grain for long?

But sometimes it can be tricky knowing what it is to go against one's grain.
When you make choices you have to be careful about how those choices affect
other people, since we all seem to be interconnected, anyway. So, maybe
sometimes you feel like following your true destiny but you are neglecting another part of it..

 

[bruce]

Ithaki, for a mathematician you sure speak as a poet.

I don't know if there's a resolution of free will and destiny. I know I've wrestled with the question as much as anyone, and I can only see it through my cognitive imagination.

Much of being true to yourself is how much of your truth you can afford to entirely be at a given point in time. If circumstances demand that you or I do something that 'feels' outside our self, then we have to find it within ourselves to go out and meet that demand. But I believe there comes a point in life where demands of this world no longer bind us to obligations, other than merely being true to our truth, and nothing more. That is, if you believe in magic tortoises and such, and not in the world, screaming in your ears.

 

[cal val]

Ithaki...

I was a card-carrying atheist when I first came to this forum about two and half years ago, and then I started dreaming...
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/703.html

I don't believe a person can realize their destiny unless they exercise their free will. A person can't even survive unless they exercise their free will... unless, of course, someone takes care of all their survival needs for them.

Love,

Val

 

[ithaki]

Bruce,

As a mathematician, I believe in equal opportunity for each line that I write. I want to make sure the number of letters in each one is an even number..

I leave it up to you to verify that I achieved that!

 

[ithaki]

More seriously,

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Much of being true to yourself is how much of your truth you can afford to entirely be at a given point in time.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I totally agree. You can't always afford to be completely true to yourself. And there goes your free will...

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But I believe there comes a point in life where demands of this world no longer bind us to obligations, other than merely being true to our truth, and nothing more. That is, if you believe in magic tortoises and such, and not in the world, screaming in your ears.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
There comes a point in life... to everyone, you think? How do you get to that point? Is it an internal process, is it external luck???

Val,
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I don't believe a person can realize their destiny unless they exercise their free will. A person can't even survive unless they exercise their free will... <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I think you can exercise your free will by just 'going with the flow' sometimes. It's one of our options. If that's what it takes! But how will we know if we did fulfill our destiny??? Maybe our destiny is also fluid, maybe our destiny is simply to live for a while...

I do consider myself extremely lucky, so I won't even get into survival, but you can just go with the flow in life without necessarily having somebody take care of you the whole time.. in my experience.

I'm not really an atheist, btw.

 

[void]

If destiny shows through our deepest truest desires then we might resist it a long time, even over many lifetimes, but in the end won't it be irresistable to us ? Being irresistable how much freewill did we really have ?

Of course I believe in the importance of some of our choices and in the importance of free will. If I didn't there wouldn't be any point in my troubling over decisions ( I'm not sure Val how much free will I had about coming here - to this planet - and I didn't do much to survive once I got here - squalled a bit, got fed, bathed, changed etc. )but what makes us call it 'destiny' is that pretty irresistable 'pull' some name it a 'calling'.

 

[peace]

Sometimes when we don't want to do something and say we have free will, we are only going against what we believe someone/s says we should be doing.
Then it's merely defiance - and is only the flip side of doing what we're supposed to do.

I Ching is good for helping sort that out - What do I really want to do, not want to do and what is merely - "I'll do my own thing no matter what you say I should do".

Rosalie

 

[bruce]

Ithaki, you wrote: ?but you can just go with the flow in life without necessarily having somebody take care of you the whole time.. in my experience.?

I wholeheartedly agree. There?ve been many times throughout my life when, according to ?the books? and records, I should not have been able to survive. But I always have. Support isn?t free, though, ever. The universe requires something of equal value to be returned to it, in accord with your inner truth. But if one is too busy believing the evidence (groveling before the facts), there's never enough room for faith to work its magic.

 

[cal val]

Hi Ithaki...

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I think you can exercise your free will by just 'going with the flow'
sometimes.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Oh absolutely. Whenever one makes a choice... whether to rest or to push ahead or consult the Yi or whatever, it's exercising one's free will. Even if one chooses not to be true to oneself... it's still exercising free will... because it's still making a choice.

I think I was aware of a kind of either/or attitude toward the destiny/free will question before my dreams started, but after I finally accepted the one recurring dream, it was no longer a matter of either/or. It was both. One does not preclude the other. They exist together harmoniously for me.

I'm sorry if anyone misunderstood my 'atheist' statement. It's just that I'm still amazed at the rather radical change in my belief system, and I really should learn to be quiet about it now. It's novel to no one but me... lol... probably always will be.

Love,

Val

 

[ithaki]

Val,

I sure hope I didn't misunderstand your 'atheist' statement! I don't think being an atheist is a bad thing. In fact, I think it's very pure to still be able to be and feel like a human being, without the desire of retribution or the fear of punishment.

The main reason I could not be an atheist (at the moment - I try to never say never) is that I don't have (and don't want to have) that kind of intellectual certainty, one way or another.

Spiritually, it's different. I see where you are coming from and the radical change you must have experienced. On a feeling level, it's much easier to be certain..

 

[bruce]

Health or wellness care is a good example. I know folks who?s medication regiment is enough to choke an elephant, each day. And rather than getting better, their health continues to deteriorate. I know others who may rely on some meds to manage their physical illness, but supplement that with a lot of positive reinforcement from belief and self-help, who continue living a healthy life.

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Rosalie-
If I didn't already have a science and logic background to shield me from new age and magical thinking, I think I'd find Carl Sagan's "Baloney Detection Kit" really helpful:
http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/tps-seti/baloney.html
Of course this doesn't imply that life isn't magic

 

[cal val]

Hi Bruce...

I'm talking literal survival needs (and I'm one to be very careful to know the difference between wants and needs)... being feed whether you choose to eat or not ... being clothed against the weather whether you choose to be or not... being sheltered from the elements whether you choose to be or not.

I understand what you mean. When I was in Virginia, I didn't know that I would survive after that hard winter. I honestly don't believe I would have if I didn't make the choices I did... PHEW! Am I ever glad I did and that's over.

Love,

Val

 

[bruce]

Hi Val,

Erm, so am I talking of literal survival needs. Needs and wants, especially 'needs', is a topic I brought up a long while back, after reading Neale D. Walsch's book, Friendship With God, where, he takes up the "illusion" of need. I place illusion in quotes because that is his word for it. "Need" is still an item of serious interest for me. But I admit, it's a word where semantics can muddy things up pretty well, just like the word 'illusion' can. Perhaps to sum up my take on the word 'need': the more need I think I have, the more need I seem to possess. The less focus I place on need, the freer I seem to become of them.

The most commonly mentioned need in this regard is breathing. But the less I think of my need for air, the easier I breathe. Same with will: the more I will to breathe, the more conscious effort it requires to do what otherwise comes naturally. I don't think it's a stretch to go from breathing to eating to shelter, or any other perceived need.

 

[bruce]

New Age seems to be one of those terms with different connotations to different individuals. My observation of most who practice New Age healing and such, is that most seem to have their feet pretty far off the ground. There?s often no skepticism to anything spirit related, so it?s an ?anything is possible? proposition, which can get pretty flighty, imo. With most there seems little attention given to the psychology of how and why things appear as they do, with most of their attention absorbed in manifestations of one kind or another.

That said, I?m more a believer in many such things than any time in the past. I sometimes wear an amber stone with a pine seed embedded into it, and I swear it seems to return me to myself and to essentials. Same with these homeopathic tiny sugar pills I take, which have had energies run into them through computer processing. Sounds hokey, until considering that sugar is crystal, which makes for a great storage medium for data and energy. All I know is it works. So I?m more skeptical of my skepticism these days.

 

[cal val]

I'm going to get back to the subject of 44 here for just a second. I'll be quick. Promise!

Again... experience has been my best teacher, and one of my recent experiences with 44 was reading with my YiJing cards for a woman I work with. She drew 44 and I saw that she has an addiction problem... a dependency on alcohol about which she's in complete denial. When I tried to tell her what 44 was saying to her, she cut me off, saying "I know what it's saying." Soon after that I had it confirmed for me. She's an alcoholic from an alcoholic family.

After that reading on top of some other experiences I've had with 44, I interpret the hexagram statement as saying, "Though she is healthy (or though she is strong), do not marry her," rather than "Because she is strong, do not marry her."

Though the buzz from the alcohol seems like a good place to be, do not embrace it. Though the euphoria and peacefulness from the heroin seem like Nirvana, do not indulge in it. Though the money and perks for the job you're being offered may be irrestible, do not take it.

44 is about seduction by something that will harm you in the long run. 33.2, a monkey on your back, leads to 44. That's one of the most connected line changes I know in the Yi.

Love,

Val

 

[jesed]

Hi Val

Just in case it can be useful

44 not always is about "seduction by something that will harm you in the long run". When Heaven and Earth meet each other, everything is created.

44 is meeting. Is this meeting auspiciuos or pitfall? That depends:

a) If the encountering is "half the way" (it means equaly, correct, proper) there will be blessing.
b) If one exceed the "half way" (arrogance, to much determination...and so on) is a temptation.

So 44 is saying: you must be careful in order to see if the oportunity is correct or just a temptation.

Best wishes

 

[bradford_h]

Bruce-
I like your comment. There is indeed a middle path.
My life got lots better when I was introduced to the concept of "suspending disbelief". It even helped my inner scientist to go exploring.

 

[bruce]

Thanks, Brad.

I think it's the names we assign that are the real stumbling blocks. "Oh, it's this", and so off we go running after it. Or, we fold our arms in refusal and miss the illusive golden ring.

Yes, I agree that the middle path is both the more secure and adventurous. Think I read somewhere ?Trust in Allah, But Tie Your Camel First?.

 

[cal val]

Hi Jesed...

FYI... I'm referring to the original lines in the YiJing, the Zhouyi. The commentary you've quoted was, of course, added much later in history, and I don't find it useful to understanding 44. I am happy for you, however, that you do.

Love,

Val

 

[bruce]

Hi Val,

After reading your last posts, I had a picture pop into my head of someone rolling dice on a craps table. "Luck, be a lady tonight!" is a pretty decent (or indecent?) image of 44, I think. Did they gamble back in the Zhouyi days?