Hi (first post)

[bourrique]

It is really amazing to come across you guys. The I Ching has been a rather solitary occupation for me up to now. I have been reading and trying to fathom it since 1975. Actually I don't consult it very often now because I have binged on it in the past using it as a crutch (addictive personality) and I figure I should be able to work things out for myself. I have been reading parts of this great site over the past few days since I signed up and it is so interesting to see other people using it, a novelty for me. It gives great perspective.
I did consult this week for a big decision (buying a flat at auction) and received H14 L2,4,5,6. I was therfore grateful to read all about how to deal with multiple moving lines. Anyway, my divination seems very auspicious but is there anything I might have missed?

 

[willowfox]

Hex 14.2,4,5,6 > 36

This suggests yes, go ahead with the auction plan, look at line 14.2, not only does it say yes but it indicates that you will receive lots of help as well.

Line 14.4 This is the warning line, at the auction don't fall into the trap of trying to outbid a rich and determined bidder, certainly place your bid but do not lose your head in the frenzy of bidding, know when to stop.

Line 14.5 Don't worry on the day of the auction, just go and try and all will be well.

Line 14.6 This line puts the cream on the cake, so go and do your thing at the auction but be sensible.

 

[willowfox]

Yes, it changes to Hex 63, and to add that one does NOT take line 63.1 into account as it has absolutely no bearing on your reading.

Hex 63 is fine, everything at the auction will have gone well for you whether you purchased something or not. But if you did purchase something then just make sure that all the paperwork is in order so that there will be no legal issues down the road. There is no error of any kind if you check everything thoroughly from the onset.

The other OP may be misguided enough to believe that the reading is superficial but it is not, it is a simple answer that does not need a million page explanation and this is how the Chinese do indeed read.

If the OP had been to China or Hong Kong then he might know this but obviously he hasn't been out of his back door.

 

[willowfox]

It seems to me that reading just line 63.1 at the end serves your purpose of trying to convince the querent that if they go to the auction they will be swallowed up in a black hole.
So, you think that the lines of Hex 14 should be disregarded as well as the judgement of Hex 63 and just bounce straight to line 63.1 which the majority of people would consider of no relevance in this question. And you really think that this is the real Chinese way of getting a correct answer?
Do the lines of the first hex mean nothing in your method?

Edited to add, that nobody is shouting, only debating a point of interpretation.

 

[bamboo]

Twiligt,
If I had no idea of the method you describe - which i dont - and I threw the coins as a novice, which I am - then I would only know to look at the hex and lines which I received and interpret them as best I could. and the results would yield me some good, reliable advice

your method is esoteric at best, and if it were the only truth, then why would any novice ever discover the I Ching to be so accurate, so worth pursuing, so uncannily direct? They would not. they would consider it a tool that speaks gibberish and forget about it as soon as they could.

perhaps someone like you, who has studied and written about Yijing for years, is past the apprenticeship level and the Yi requires you to be on a different plane, else you would get bored at the least. you and the Yi whisper a different langauage to each other, enjoy a very private love affair. but in this forum, with complete novices ( upon whom the Yi looks with kindly regard mind you ) you just serve to confuse people. with no offense intended

 

[willowfox]

Yes, Zhu Xi, or Chu Si or Fu Si, however you spell his name was quite a clever guy but I can find no mention in his writings of the method that you are using, to neglect the good tidings of the lines in hex 14 and go straight to an obscure line in Hex 63, line 63.1, I cannot make any logical sense of "your" method.

To be quite honest, I have never seen anyone use this strange method which only helps to confuse and not to clarify the reading at all. Its more akin to using a pin to select your answer.

 

[willowfox]

Perhaps I am strange, an alien or something but personally I see no problem as long as he heeds the warning not to get carried away in the bidding arena and makes sure everything is correct and above board, legally, then all should be fine.

Of course reselling oneday in the future will depend where the market is at, at that time. But if the place is for residential purposes then what is there to fear? He wants to stay in that case, of course he must be aware that the place will need repairs now again, even you need to be fixed from time to time.

 

[willowfox]

Zu Xi suggested it was up to the individual how they used his book of commentaries, he seemed to be giving more power to his own commentaries, saying that once the stalks had been thrown the querent should really examine his commentaries to see the answer that they are seeking.

I still cannot find mention of your "method".

 

[Sparhawk]

Just for the record, the Zhu Xi method has been discussed several times in the Exploring Divination section. There is a link I have posted before to Steve Marshall's site where it is described and is part of Adler's translation. Look for "How to interpret changing lines" down the page.

 

[tigerintheboat]

Many changing Lines, much advice

It is really amazing to come across you guys. The I Ching has been a rather solitary occupation for me up to now. I have been reading and trying to fathom it since 1975. Actually I don't consult it very often now because I have binged on it in the past using it as a crutch (addictive personality) and I figure I should be able to work things out for myself. I have been reading parts of this great site over the past few days since I signed up and it is so interesting to see other people using it, a novelty for me. It gives great perspective.
I did consult this week for a big decision (buying a flat at auction) and received H14 L2,4,5,6. I was therfore grateful to read all about how to deal with multiple moving lines. Anyway, my divination seems very auspicious but is there anything I might have missed?

This is a generally auspicious reading, but there are a lot of specific pieces of advice and comment it it. The relating hexagram , H63, says you are already underway in a process. Each of the moving lines contains specific advice. The line advice does not suggest necessarily that you will win the flat, but rather that you should not bid forcefully (line 4), but that your actions are in accordance with heaven and will ultimately be fruitful (Both lines 5 and 6).

So keep at it but don't overspend or force any one purchase, especially this one. Let the action come to you.

Tiger

(And ignore all the fighting about whose interpretatons are correct. People have been arguing about how to interpret this book for thousands of years, and it would be nice if they took the fight out to the alley).

 

[meng]

"Buying a flat at auction" entails chance. Therefore Wf and twilight are both correct, and thereby both incorrect. An auction entails at least two bidding opponents, and the elements of Ti Ming. If you think you could steal chance's hand through a method, have at it. I think it's better to be aware of the moment.

 

[willowfox]

Just for the record, the Zhu Xi method has been discussed several times in the Exploring Divination section. There is a link I have posted before to Steve Marshall's site where it is described and is part of Adler's translation. Look for "How to interpret changing lines" down the page.

Thank you.

Interesting but very alien. As is Huang's method and a few other peoples as well. Also, Chu Si over complicates the method of even obtaining the lines, 3 shakes for each line.

At the end of the day, where do all these strange rules get you? The IC is simple and straightforward, so why try to make it difficult and complicated?

 

[willowfox]

Is it?

Sounds like you've found your level. The surface.

Its better than sinking to the depths of confusion where you seem to be at.


By the way, you haven't been around for awhile, out on parole or something?

 

[willowfox]

People have been arguing about how to interpret this book for thousands of years, and it would be nice if they took the fight out to the alley.

It would also be nice if certain people did not try and cloud the issue by trying to introduce "exotic' methods of interpretation. As it does nothing at all to advance the knowledge of newcomers and ordinary students of the IC. This has been done in the past but only led to confusion, wrong lines being taken into account, and people giving all sorts of wrong interpretations because they started placing emphasis on the wrong things or even imaginary things.

Beginners love shortcuts and when a person introduces an exotic shortcut, they jump on it, thinking it will always give them instant and 100% correct answers without the leg work. Wrong. So, when it doesn't work out, they give up in disgust. Learning is hard work, there are no shortcuts as suggested by the other poster.

Is that okay with everyone?

 

[meng]

In general, it is probably better not to consult the I Ching, as it is always possible, even likely, that you will misinterpret it.

But to say that an interpretation can be both correct and incorrect is meaningless. An interpretation can be correct, or incorrect. There are no grey areas here.

First, those two statements are a complete contradiction.

No gray areas in an auction, really? Then why are you wasting time posting on a Yijing forum rather than making billions with your black or white predictions?

I think there's a lot of gray areas here.

As it was, I was making no claims for my interpretation being correct, I was merely sharing how this particular oracle would be interpreted if one wished to use this method, since its outcome was rather different to the more rosy picture painted on the basis of the foreground points of change.

Then why do you argue against everyone else's interpretations? What makes yours in any way more right or authentic? Because some old dead guy used it that way? Any method will work if you predetermine that that's the method you are going to use.

 

[Trojina]

It would also be nice if certain people did not try and cloud the issue by trying to introduce "exotic' methods of interpretation. As it does nothing at all to advance the knowledge of newcomers and ordinary students of the IC. This has been done in the past but only led to confusion, wrong lines being taken into account, and people giving all sorts of wrong interpretations because they started placing emphasis on the wrong things or even imaginary things.

Beginners love shortcuts and when a person introduces an exotic shortcut, they jump on it, thinking it will always give them instant and 100% correct answers without the leg work. Wrong. So, when it doesn't work out, they give up in disgust. Learning is hard work, there are no shortcuts as suggested by the other poster.

Is that okay with everyone?

No. I don't post here because of you but I still want to read other peoples comments as well as yours so why don't you shut up and let other people post their views as you expect others to shut up and let you do your thing.

This isn't a forum just for beginners and Bourrique has been using the Yi since 1975 so I'm sure s/he can cope with Twilights ideas even if you can't.

You are in no position to critisize others interpretations....look at this load of ****http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=8129... wonder if shes still waiting...well you have a 50/50 chance of being correct i guess..

The point is if you want to be left alone don't try to interfere with others offering their perspective too.

I posted here last night along the same lines but deleted as couldn't be bothered with the ridiculous furore it would cause from you and your chums..but you ridiculed Twilights ideas in such a way that you personally would never allow anyone to do to you. I imagine a person who has been consulting since 1975 woud be as much interested in Twilights ideas as your own...so why you and Bamboo bleat on about 'newbies' I don't know.

 

[willowfox]

No. I don't post here because of you but I still want to read other peoples comments as well as yours so why don't you shut up and let other people post their views as you expect others to shut up and let you do your thing.


You are in no position to critisize others interpretations.

The point is if you want to be left alone don't try to interfere with others offering their perspective too.

I thought you would be back again, straight into attack mode as per usual, just because you hate me there is no need to embarrass yourself by showing how jealous you are.

I have every right in the world to criticize who I like, are you now a forum COP? They criticize me and I them, so up yours crabby!

And really, who do you think you are, telling me to shut up? Stop humiliating yourself and find something constructive to say.

 

[willowfox]

look at this load of ****http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=8129... wonder if shes still waiting...well you have a 50/50 chance of being correct i guess..

See what levels of rudeness you are willing to stoop to, now you have gone beyond criticism to resorting to trash my readings for a very nice and friendly person.

I thought it was against forum rules to trash another's person's reading like you are doing calling my reading a load of S***.

You hate me and that's the truth plain and simple and what next, another witch hunt by you, you seem eager to attack me yet again.

To everyone reading this, trojan has been attacking my readings ever since I started on this forum, she has a deep ingrained hatred of me and she shows it, now she has started her nonsense all over again, its a neverending story with her.

Also, she thinks/believes that she is the FORUM COP.

 

[bamboo]

Trojan, I dont ever bleat on about newbies and have never felt that there was any sense in arranging the forum to coddle newcomers to IC. IN fact, originally you were the one who was so opposed to readers like WF because of your concern for misleading newcomers!

all i was saying to Twilight is.....that the IC seems to work accurately and effectively even for those who use it the most simply prescribed way....it certainly did for me or I would never have been as interested in pursuing it as I was. The more esoteric methods - and I still say they are esoteric - are possibly worth pursuing as well, but I do not see that one would get "wrong" interpretations by not using them...as I said, then one would quickly feel the Yi was nonsense and gibberish.

it has often been said that the Yi works with a querent on the level with which they approach it, and so Twilight may have advanced to his level, but that doesnt mean others who use simpler methods need to use his.

I happen to find his (this) method interesting....but I have never heard that it was a hard and fast way to use the IC and I dont buy it. and it is CONFUSING to someone who hears it and thinks that is the only way to interpret. BUT I AM NOT BLEATING ON ABOUT NEWBIES.

 

[willowfox]

No, you are quite entitled to give your interpretation but when you start using exotic methods that fly in the face of logic then expect people to query the correctness of your answer, that's all. in actual fact I have studied many different approaches to interpretation using the IC but have found them "exotic or time consuming, no big deal.

And what do you think you are, Chinese? Are your ancestors from Lang Shan Po? As you think some old guys method is superior to anything else in this world. Master Chu Xi supreme IC commentator? No, he was just another brick in the wall!

 

[willowfox]

Well, some people may prefer to listen to an old Chinese guy. Or they may prefer to listen to you, with your snappy mouth and all the wisdom of the ages just ooozing out of you.

Dead guys are just that, dead! So, if you want to listen to some prehistoric scribe, then go ahead, enjoy the dust of centuries past.

I'm content to live in the here and now, and I certainly don't want to be a coffin chaser such as yourself.

Snappy mouth? Yes, fox's do indeed have sharp teeth and a nasty bite.

 

[willowfox]

What is it you want here? Would you prefer me not to post my interpretation, is that it? If it is not that, what are you going on about?

I don't care what you do, up to you, plus you know very well what this light hearted banter is all about!

 

[bamboo]

I have merely presented an interpretation according to a method that many who have studied the I Ching over the past thousand years regard as the standard method. It is interesting to see the disgruntlement it causes. The kind of deliberate limitation of knowledge that Willowfox and Bamboo are espousing just leads to this rather surly and arrogant type of western I Ching student we see personified here.

I don't see any arrogance in what I said and I am not disgruntled about the talk of your method. thats rather arrogant of you
I said I found the method interesting, but I dont think I have ever seen it regarded as "standard" in all the thirty years I have been reading about yijing . OOOPS, guess i forgot to follow steve marshall's website as the standard, but then I have always found him a bit arrogant and abrasive

but let me repeat....and you have not addressed this.....people who DO NOT use that method STILL find the Yijing speaks to them accurately and directly. you say they get wrong advice, I think that is a big assumption. and an obviously false one.

what's interesting is how you are the one who says you have the one and only correct way to read iching, and then you accuse others of being rigid and not wanting to learn something new

 

[Trojina]

I thought you would be back again, straight into attack mode as per usual, just because you hate me there is no need to embarrass yourself by showing how jealous you are.

I have every right in the world to criticize who I like, are you now a forum COP? They criticize me and I them, so up yours crabby!

And really, who do you think you are, telling me to shut up? Stop humiliating yourself and find something constructive to say.

What the **** would i have to be jealous about

I'm telling you to shut up trying to limit others interpretations. You have in the last couple of years deterred a fair few people from even bothering to post here. Why can't you just be content with your fortune telling and keep your nose out of trying to limit others postings. This place doesn't belong to you though it sure does appear to

I don't hate you i feel sorry for you but unlike some dimwits here I don't think feeling sorry for an individual means its okay to sit and watch them colonise an entire area of the forum and further not be content with that but then try to actually limit what other more knowlegable people may have to say.

If its so desperately important to you to post your fortune tellings here go ahead but for pitys sake don't think you have the right to stop others posting with your ignorant comments.

Oh and talking of humiliating self have you forgotten this http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.phpt=7808

See your pattern is predictable. You demand absolute freedom to insult others but if the same is returned you go ballistic...

As a user of this forum I am saying i want to hear all views here not just yours. If you want to continue posting peacefully back off trying to stop others...afterall you don't like that yourself do you

 

[em ching]

I'm going to say something here. I am not jumping on any bandwagon if you see it that way Willowfox. You have helped me in the past - made me see vital perspectives and given your time, effort and patience to my posts - and I am grateful to you. But sometimes you do seem to lack respect for people here - and speak to them accordingly. All these bickering posts is sad - we should all meet each other halfway in a spirit of humility no? Freedom expression is good - we all need to express ourselves and our opinions truthfully, but I think this community should be cared for in a spirit of love and acceptance - a stronger desire to make up - than carry on fighting - because it is a special community.

 

[willowfox]

What the **** would i have to be jealous about

I'm telling you to shut up trying to limit others interpretations. You have in the last couple of years deterred a fair few people from even bothering to post here. Why can't you just be content with your fortune telling and keep your nose out of trying to limit others postings. This place doesn't belong to you though it sure does appear to

I don't hate you i feel sorry for you but unlike some dimwits here I don't think feeling sorry for an individual means its okay to sit and watch them colonise an entire area of the forum and further not be content with that but then try to actually limit what other more knowlegable people may have to say.



See your pattern is predictable. You demand absolute freedom to insult others but if the same is returned you go ballistic...

Here we go again, same old crab on the attack as per usual, if its not my interpretation then its always something else to get your knickers in a twist about. Forever trying to limit my freedom of speech by making complaints to the management in order to get me banned, yes I know what you have been doing behind the scenes.

Now the FORUM COP is going ballistic with her neverending attempts to get me banned, always, always finding fault with me, always, always looking for some dirt to throw at me.

Do you consider yourself the more knowledgeable person here? If you do then why don't you have something constructive to say instead of always attacking me?

Of course you hate me and you are obviously jealous as well, just review your attacks upon me over the past couple of years.

Edited to add: That you have teamed up with twitlight, to launch your new round of attacks not only against me but bamboo as well. How many more people do you want to upset?

 

[willowfox]

So you've seen the sense of dodging the bullet at last. There is hope for you yet. It is wisdom to know when you don't stand a chance.

I see you haven't changed at all in your 8 months absence, last time you were here, October 2008, you went to town on forum member althoz, really insulting her and being terribly rude to her, and now you are back, doing it again, to me, bamboo, meng, and a few of the querents.

You and the crab make a great tag team.

I don't dodge anything pal, I'm here and ready for your nonsense, because wisdom dictates that one does not give ground to inferior people.

 

[bamboo]

twilight, iam quite happy to have a very firm way to interpret mutiple changing lines, it is fun and much less work than considering how to interpret many lines, often opposing each other. But i might also read the lines that i think are startlingly relevant. my intuition makes the call and it works for me.

do i think you suggest I have been doing it wrong for 30 years?! lol. No, not possible. in 30 years, I have probably tried all differnt ways of reading, including karcher's steps of change and the methods described in the great vessel. I have no certain way of doing readings. the suggestions of others to try different methods are not threatening to me, it makes it more intresting

btw, what you call my disgruntlement was only my pointing out the fact that you did imply yours was the only way to read , because you said that otherwise, the advice would be wrong.
but now that you have retracted that statement, there is no argument to fuel your fire.

 

[Trojina]

The only person who has said anothers method of looking at lines is not 'logical', worthless/wrong etc is Wfox. Bamboo you agree unconditionally with anything Wfox says. You are being absurdly biased making out its okay for Wfox to denigrate anothers view but not for the other then to even mildly and politely disagree.

Don't bother replying, I can't even take you seriously enough to communicate with when your brains this addled.

 

[Trojina]

Here we go again, same old crab on the attack as per usual, if its not my interpretation then its always something else to get your knickers in a twist about. Forever trying to limit my freedom of speech by making complaints to the management in order to get me banned, yes I know what you have been doing behind the scenes.

Now the FORUM COP is going ballistic with her neverending attempts to get me banned, always, always finding fault with me, always, always looking for some dirt to throw at me.

Do you consider yourself the more knowledgeable person here? If you do then why don't you have something constructive to say instead of always attacking me?

Of course you hate me and you are obviously jealous as well, just review your attacks upon me over the past couple of years.

Edited to add: That you have teamed up with twitlight, to launch your new round of attacks not only against me but bamboo as well. How many more people do you want to upset?

Something new to get knickers in twist about ? If only ! Its always the same old thing, me trying to resist the inevitable arrival of the day that this becomes officially the Wfox forum where noone ever disagrees with you even in the mildest most pacifyingly grovelling of terms....actually i think that day is already virtually nigh

Re getting you banned, don't be silly you'll never be totally banned you twerp. I never got you banned anyway you got yourself banned for about a fortnight, and even then it was deemed perfectly okay for you to return even though you hadn't even apologised for your totally unwarranted attacks.

As for limiting freedom of speech, yes you do try to suppress other views, with the aid of your trusty sidekick Bamboo, thats why I posted here but you choose not to see that and prefer make out its all because i don't like you...soon there'll be the cry of "its a witch hunt" ...don't bother its soooo predictable

As for being 'forum cop' shame someone isn't when we have a 'forum terrorist' but it ain't my problem cos it ain't my forum but I would like to be able to read other ideas about readings.....though i doubt I'll be able to much longer, not with the unified force of 'Willboo' or maybe "Willbam" patrolling the area to make sure 'esoteric' methods aren't allowed