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If I make a full and whole-hearted commitment..? 24.1>2

yiyione

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If I make a full and whole-hearted commitment(want to be his life partner), what's the most likely result? 24.1 to 2.
24.1 because it is with ex. we gave up the relationship 5 years ago. recently we return together and make a decision to work through problems. We want to be together, since we are both getting older. we still love each other after many years. does yi suggest this return is not good. or this return is on time, not too late, so it is very good?
I am not sure how to read 24.1. anyone has experience of 24.1?

If I trust his words and proposal(want to have family with me, be my life partner, ready to commitment), what is the most likely result? 50.4 to 18.
50. about devotion.
50.4 it sounds like a warning. I rely on something that is weak and not responsible. "don't waste your talents on things that are wrong for you"(Balkin).

What can I expect if I trust x? 42.5>27
42.5 sounds referring back to myself. does yi say that I should just be sincere and show my generosity to x, then x will also show me sincere back. yi said that I should not overthink too much, just pour my heart into this?

thank you :bows:
 
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lavalamp

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I think 24.1 refers to you giving up your distrust of the man. Or maybe distrust is too strong a word, it's "not a great distance", so maybe giving up your doubts is a better word. Giving him your 2 "Devotion."

One could take 50.4 as meaning he is not up the task of fulfilling his commitment to a family with you - but this is because he alone cannot do this. Who can actually, as it takes 2? It would require a full hearted commitment and investment from you as well to make it successful, the commentary refers to a subject who can't do it alone and does not have sufficient help, therefore the bad auspices.
Changing to 18 ," Work on what is spoiled" could mean you changing from being one who expects him to do it all for you, or/and it could mean him buckling down to family responsibilities and way of life.
In other words, something like if you expect him to make all the money and do all the work, cooking cleaning and serving while you sit around and do nothing and act like a spoiled Princess , this relationship is not going to work. The bad auspice sounds like it's because of what you bring to the table.

42.5>27 - Hmm. Do you really love him, or are you just impressed with his money and social status, his ability to provide for your needs?

Ouch.
 
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Hi Yiyione,

Yes, we are awaiting your comments on your last post.

As for this thread, I think you are right about 24.1. It is more than likely a picture of what is actually taking place. You are returning to him and him to you.

My interpretation of hex 2 in this situation would be: Be receptive to the return itself. Is it good, is it bad? Soak it all in from the beginning, and you will be able to tell what the result will be if you follow through. Most often times there are signs at the very beginning of something, and we look back and say it makes sense now.

I remember a job I had taking money, and a man came up to me and handed me extremely crinkled bills out of his wallet. I mean, these bills looked like they were put through the wash, ran over and chewed. Despite the crumpled bills I felt a comfort in the air and threw out a joke about how messed up they were. The guy was warm and joked back. We started talking on the regular and now have been friends for 4 years. Our friendly and joking relationship is just like that beginning moment. Just bigger. It is a mirror of it. So be receptive at the beginning, and you will see what the result would be like :)
 
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yiyione

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I just replied to the project reading. please see the post.

I need to say big thank you to your replies, particularly about my own distrust and doubts.

we both are free spirits, and had the issue of unfaithful and commitment before, so I sometimes tend to doubt his words via email and skype. The old habits would just come immediately, especially when I saw or thought about on facebook, his flirty/like comments on the ex-lovers who he had affairs with during our time together. secondly we are long distance, so these make me have doubt. sometimes I feel yes I can start again, but sometimes, the old 'distrust' ghost cracks in. it makes me doubt his intention.

we just made a decision to work on the practical issue first to see if we have any possibility to be together. currently we try to make plans and wait and see, since the soonest time that we 'may' be able to live in the same city would be sometime in 2013. there are many uncertainties on the practical matters.

to respond to lavalamp's comment on 42.5>27
he is the opposite of the kind of man with money and great social status, but more like starving artist kind-- no saving and changing jobs.... But we currently try to work out how he can get a good paid job to save some money, and the job he enjoys, so he can move with me next year. what I want from this person is honesty, commitment, responsibility and care.

to answeredquestions comments on hex 2 and little story.
thank you! I like what you say
" So be receptive at the beginning, and you will see what the result would be like "
": Be receptive to the return itself. Is it good, is it bad? Soak it all in from the beginning, and you will be able to tell what the result will be if you follow through. "

In short, I guess I need to work on quite a lot on my personal defence, jealousy and distrust. and since we make the decision, then I should stop questioning his intentions, just put my attention on how to make plans, how to commit to this decision and work with this person together. thanx.:bows:
 

lavalamp

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Ack, I read 45.5, not 42.5! I knew something didn't feel right.
Sorry, 42.5 is a much nicer line yiyione,
"If in truth you have a kind heart, ask not.
Supreme good fortune. Truly, kindness will be recognized as your virtue."

Sorry about that!

That he doesn't make much money, I can see that in the 50.4 as well.
 

yiyione

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actually I may be in the position with the higher social status and with more conditions to have more money...
yes. in 50.4 I also see it as someone cannot take the responsibity. as you said, it can also refer to me, but I am asking 'this person'. however, i know in the current situation, he does not have any ability on the finance and other practical issues, and he knows he needs to prepare or 'we' need to plan together.

but I still have a question how can I take 50.4 that is negative with 24.1 and 42.5 that are both postive? is 50.4 a warning about the external enviornment or really just about my personal issues?


thanx!:bows:
 

lavalamp

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50.4 says that he can't do it alone, he needs your help. In most relationships no one can do it alone, but this may be referring to finances and social issues. You may not be able to do enough for him, financially and socially, to make it work for you as a couple. And it could be saying having enjoyed better social status and prosperity you are bit "spoiled", you might take for granted things that many others are unable to. It could also be saying as an "artist" type of person as you put it, he isn't really interested in what other people think of him or in making a lot of money.

But the positive lines say you are kind, and following your heart, and willing to trust and devote yourself.

Makes me think of Princesses who have given up their Royal status to marry commoners, for the sake of love. He may never have the position in society or finances you are used to - but how much that matters, if you are in love with him?

Good luck.
 
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You got 50.4 for 'what if I trust him' :eek: good grief how anyone can make out 'yes trust this' is well beyond me...I would think very carefully as this answer shows if you trust him it could get very messy for you...your person could be soiled, ie your feelings hurt, your dignity hurt.

42.5 is often a reading of consolation. You will make the right choice., your heart is in the right place However you asked the same question twice really. First time you got 50.4, second time 42.5. Even if i see 42.5 as a consolation line they are very different auspices.


whatever you decide its worth thinking this through carefully IMO.
Very much so agree with Trojan Yiyione. I only commented on the first question because everything else seems to follow in line with what I said about that reading. My example was a positive one, but I have negative ones as well.

When I read you received 50.4, I must admit, things don't look good. (It's actually a pretty obvious negative answer with the broken vessel legs but sometimes it is not easy to see if it is your own situation or you wish for something better)

Following from what I said before, and how small beginning moments can be a mirror of the bigger picture or what is to come, how do you feel about the guy? What's the vibe? Is it a very 50.4 situation already?

I see 42.5 as saying that no matter what situation or outcome occurs, you will remain a kind hearted person.
 
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lavalamp

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There is nothing in 50.4 to say you are 'spoiled' as in being like a princess.
Trojan, 50.4's commentary says " Its subject is insufficient of himself for his work, and he has no sufficient help.... evil result" In a relationship context, where it takes two, I would expect both sides should take some lesson from this.

And the change is to Hex 18, "Work on what has been spoiled". Here too both parties should I think take some lesson from the lines, she spoiled in her way (money, social standing/position, privilege), and he in his (Freedom, not having to answer to anyone, money and providing not being a central concern.)

I think there is a narrative thread there between the lines and change worthy of note, and the question it brings up of what one is willing to give up for the sake of love.
 
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::Further interpretations::

"what is the most likely result?" 50.4 to 18

Wilhelm on 50.4:
The legs of the ting are broken.
The prince's meal is spilled
And his person is soiled.
Misfortune.
The result is that the legs will break, the meal will spill, the person will be soiled.

The ting is a vessel for ritual, a symbol of the spirit. Not of everyday meals. It is not necessarily speaking of wealth or status (although the legs do represent stability). It seems to me, to be pointing to more of something related to the spirit and of a higher realm.

I am viewing the ting or vessel as a person, literly, their flesh. With legs and arms. Inside we have a spirit, and it is sacred. And it is quite opposite from the flesh from outside. It is more like a spark of a star that we hold inside and also offer to others. Sometimes situations seem to knock the ting over and spill the spirit.

The truth be told, Yiyione would be the only one to decide what could be spilled, and what has been spoiled.

Could be money, could be status, could be spirit. Could be Tequilla (I only say that because of the worm). The point is, the ting's leg's break, and something does spill.
 

lavalamp

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Well sure AQ, but the commentaries do have suggestions as to what the legs of the Ting are as symbols, looking at the relationships between the lines. And it is a relationship question.

"Line 4 is in the place of a great minister, who is charged with the most difficult duties, which no single man can sustain. Then the strength of 4 is weakened by being in an even place, and its correlate is the weak 1 in the lowest place. Its subject is insufficient of himself for his work, and he has no sufficient help; and the result will be evil." - (Legge)

"No single man can sustain" the difficult duties? "No sufficient help"?

This indicates a lot of demands or expectations being placed on the guy.
 
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When I was describing the ting, and the spirit inside, I was thinking of yiyione, because she was the one asking the question. Take care
 
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LL, you do have a point with it being about a relationship, so perhaps the ting is a symbol of the relationship itself. Hrrrm. ;)
yiyione, what do you think?
 

lavalamp

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"Caldron" means "something's cooking." "Spilling" can mean dumping emotions, or sharing feelings that embarrass the other. Doesn't necessarily indicate the relationship would be lost, I don't think... Hurt or angry feelings being spilled might sometimes be better in fact than just letting them simmer, get it out! Depends on commitment and where it goes. And in this case it goes to 18, which is working on the problems that exist in the relationship.

Committed relationships do require work eventually, I think.
 

lavalamp

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As I just pointed out in the adjoining thread, Wilhelm's translation _including_ commentary is more the iChing than anything you or I have to say it is, because he wrote it as a 10 year collaboration under the direct guidance of a Chinese master of the Yi (who also taught him secret Chinese Yoga practices.) There is oral tradition there, Master to Student, and there is also added explanation of what would be simply understood as a cultural assumption in China, but would not be so understood in the West.

In the other thread you said Hilary's translation says nothing about a "strong man", it talks about a long tailed rodent. Well in China, this describes a certain kind of person, it's Chinese astrology, and a cultural assumption a Westerner (like you for example) would not get. So for _your_ benefit Wilhelm and his Master filled in the gaps.

I don't think it serves the people who come here seeking advice to be so very disrespectful of the Richard WIlhelm translation, the life work of his Master Lau Nai Suan. The translation was a living one with a qualified Master of the Yi, not one derived from piles of Dictionaries in a dusty study somewhere.
 
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lavalamp

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BTW, my post about "Caldron means something is cooking" etc., was not a response to anything you said at all. The work to be done is in the change hex, 18.
 
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Confucius said something about his studies with the I Ching and the years that he had put in. I do not know the exact quote so sorry about this rendition :blush:. It was something to the effect like "I have studied all of these years and I still need 50 more, then maybe I will benefit". I think he understood that it is an ongoing process and every part of the process of learning is not better than the next.

It really doesn't matter how long you have had a relationship with the Yi. Everyone sees it differntly. Which really is the best part. To share. I love Wilhelm's translation. This does not mean that the other translations I am reading will not enlighten any more or any less. The other translators have done research that should not be discredited or held in a lesser regards.

We are all right there beside Wilhelm, experiencing, gathering information, researching, talking to experienced people, thinking back, applying things to life.

And yet at the same time, we are all on our own, we have our own background, heritage, personal experience, and thoughts that change the symbols we see in the Yi. It's beautiful!

As I just pointed out in the adjoining thread, Wilhelm's translation _including_ commentary is more the iChing than anything you or I have to say it is, because he wrote it as a 10 year collaboration under the direct guidance of a Chinese master of the Yi (who also taught him secret Chinese Yoga practices.)
The nature of translations in general and those that have a relationship with the Yi, like, myself, you and Trojan, everyone on Clarity, it is not like you describe it LL in the above underline. It is not a race to the light and Wilhelm wins.
 

lavalamp

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AQ, I don't think of it as a race at all, you miss my point. There is a big difference between book or online learning, and studying and working with a Spiritual Master directly in the native culture for decades of your life. In many spiritual traditions without learning from a Master, one's views about the written word is considered totally without credibility - but I certainly don't go to that extreme, as so many in India do.

The language barrier is hard enough to bridge, let alone cultural assumptions East and West, and lack of life experience and spiritual discernment to inform one's understandings. And I think a little more humility in this regard would serve some of the members of this forum, and those they seek to serve well.

LL
 
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I have had some "aha!" moments with the I ching. I am not trying to boast. I have seen things in readings that are not listed anywhere in the Wilhem translation or commentary, yet the realization is not out of no where and correlates soundly with the oracle bones.

Wilhelm did not see all angles.

And yes, the message of 15 can be applied to all people and situations wisely. It can be applied to Myself, Wilhelm, and it can even be applied to you.

Do you have other translations that you like to use?
 

lavalamp

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The issue here really is the added commentary in the Wilhelm that does not appear anywhere else. Sometimes it draws parallels with thought from other religious traditions. Sometimes it adds explanations. And some here severely criticize Wilhelm for this kind of thing, as if he has made the Yi impure somehow, acting on his own imprimatur.

But in fact Wilhelm's work was a direct collaboration with a Master of the Yi, and so if one is to draw assumptions, it should be that all such commentaries were directly approved by WIlhelm's Master. I mean these kind of guys are awfully strict, the kind of guys that would whack you on the head just because they don't like what you are thinking, I highly doubt such a one would have let an upstart pupil put his own words in the mouth of the Yi. The day the book went to print, says Carl Jung, the Master died.

And then you have people who would remove all the Commentaries of Confucius, Mencius, and everyone else entirely from the Yi! Sure - and let's reinvent the wheel while we are at it! Ack.

LL
 
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Hi LL,

The issue here really is the added commentary in the Wilhelm that does not appear anywhere else. Sometimes it draws parallels with thought from other religious traditions. Sometimes it adds explanations.

But in fact Wilhelm's work was a direct collaboration with a Master of the Yi, and so if one is to draw assumptions, it should be that all such commentaries were directly approved by WIlhelm's Master. I mean these kind of guys are awfully strict, the kind of guys that would whack you on the head just because they don't like what you are thinking, I highly doubt such a one would have let an upstart pupil put his own words in the mouth of the Yi. The day the book went to print, says Carl Jung, the Master died.
What you have said above, might have some truth. It is wonderful that you have a translation that you vibe with. I am just trying to point out that, even though, yes, the thoughts that went into the research of the Wilhem translation, were like you said, filtered by a Master. And so, we could say that the book is pure of things that are undeserving to be entered in (This is not my firm belief, but we could say that). That the book only has truths about the Yi and nothing more. Still, that being said, this does not mean that any other translation is not also seeing something pure and from a different angle.

Let me use a metaphor. You have a grapefruit. It is considered a superfood by many. It is packed full of Vitamin C, it has flavonoids called naringenin that help cells. It could easily be said that the graprefruit is flawless.

But what about Kale?

Kale is also packed full of nutrients. Antioxidents, Vitamin K are a couple. Kale is also looked at as a superfood.

Kale and grapefruit alike have very little bad qualities in the ways of nutrients. And even sometimes you might want to eat an almond. Yes, they have a lot of fat content, but they deliver the vitamin E very well.

So there are three points I am trying to make:
One, both foods have nutrients to deliver if eaten.
Two, a person might be in need of one food more than another, due to what their body needs. (Or they could eat both ;))
Three, people have different tastes. :p

Take care,
AQ
 

lavalamp

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You misunderstand AQ. The exclusionary message came from Trojan, who said we should leave out all the Wilhelm commentaries, and how I "paraphrase" them I think is how she put it. I have not in any way tried to be exclusionary regarding other translations or personal insights into the Yi. Let 1000 flowers bloom.

I think we certainly can all gain personal insights to what is true, but it's self defeating to try to do so while disrespecting the wisdom of the past.
 

Trojina

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You misunderstand AQ. The exclusionary message came from Trojan, who said we should leave out all the Wilhelm commentaries, and how I "paraphrase" them I think is how she put it. I have not in any way tried to be exclusionary regarding other translations or personal insights into the Yi. Let 1000 flowers bloom.

I think we certainly can all gain personal insights to what is true, but it's self defeating to try to do so while disrespecting the wisdom of the past.
I did not say that. Infact as I have said previously I use Wilhelms translations and occasionally his commentary. But all you do is paraphrase his commentaries, to make them fit your own view of how women should relate to men.. Its obvious thats your agenda..

If you just did that it wouldn't matter but if anyone writes an alternative view you seem to find it unacceptable and persist in arguing black is white


I have erased all previous posts in this thread because moderators have been presumptuous enough to edit my post without my consent or even inform me as to why in pm.
 
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