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Introduction to Daeluin's methodologies for working with the Yi

Daeluin

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Greetings all, my name is Sebastian. I post here under the alias Daeluin and on the reddit I Ching board under the alias az4th.

It was brought to my attention that I may work in ways that are unfamiliar to some, and so a post illuminating such ways and works I use would be helpful to reference to from a link in my signature. So that is what this is.

My aim is to follow principle. I work with the principles of daoist cosmology, and Ni Hua Ching's work The Book of Changes and the Unchanging Truth has a very thorough introduction to how daoist cosmology unfolds from the root into what becomes the 8 trigrams and 64 hexagrams and on into the ten thousand things. From Chinese Medicine to Chinese Astrology to Internal Alchemy to Music and so on, we may find that these same principles are shared between all these systems and form a methodology that may be depended upon. The 8 trigrams and 64 hexagrams form a basis for understanding these principles.

Some choose to work with the original Zhou Yi text from the Zhou Dynasty before the work began to become the philosophical basis for principled Daoist and Confucian practices. I believe that is wonderful, however I do work from the philosophical perspective, and this has been part of the core of my studies, from the classics on Internal Alchemy to Tai Chi to Astrology.

As such, I find great benefit from some of the commentaries that work with the philosophy and principled structure of the lines. These works for me are:

The Taoist I Ching, a commentary written by Liu Yiming (Qing Dynasty, 1734–1821) and translated by Thomas Cleary. This may also be found in The Taoist Classics Volume Four, which includes the I Ching Mandalas. This main work includes translations of several of Liu Yiming's commentaries on the I Ching, and often takes the perspective of finding spiritual balance within the energetic principles of Internal Alchemy. As such it can be too much for some to work with comfortably, and the translation itself has received criticism for being hasty. Certain key translations, like essence for jing (vitality) as well as xing (nature) can lead to confusion if one is not aware of how to tell them apart from the context and so on. However it remains an excellent text for those seeking spiritual transformation that follows a spiritual master's deep comprehension of spiritual principle.

The Yi River Commentary on the Book of Changes, a commentary by Cheng Yi (Song Dynasty, 1033–1107) translated and edited by L. Michael Harrington. I find myself continuously surprised and enlightened by the depth of comprehension and insight into the principles of the Yi within this work. Sometimes where other translations and commentaries hint upon a concept, it may remain uncertain why for example there is no blame to be found within a certain action. Cheng Yi, via Harrington's careful and concise translation, gives a highly detailed commentary to work from for each line statement. I highly recommend this work for those seeking a most thorough commentary to work from and meditate on the implications of.

The Classic of Changes, a commentary by Wang Bi (Three Kingdoms, 226-249) translated by Richard John Lynn. Wang Bi shares a brilliant wisdom with us from a Daoist and Confucian perspective, and here we may find remnants of Eastern Han philosophy within his work. Given his age of death, yet important political roles and depth of wisdom, it seems likely he was exposed to very mature and highly developed philosophical concepts during his education. I particularly appreciate how his commentary frequently gives very clear attribution to the forces the lines exert upon each other, as this helps to comprehend why the line statements and interpretations suggest the things they do. This may be the oldest available commentary that is able to tap somewhat into the perspectives of the Han era philosophical school of thought on the Yi. Highly recommended.

The Astrology of I Ching, a work that includes partially translated commentary from the He Luo Li Shu work by Shao Yong (Song Dynasty, 1011–1077). This is a work designed to take a BaZi astrological chart and use it to derive a hexagram line that depicts the course of one's life and so forth. Translated by W. K. Chu, with editing and commentaries by W. A. Sherrill, this English version has poorly westernized calculations and somewhat incomplete or modified translations. However, I find great insight into the principles of the I Ching within the line commentaries as descriptions of people's trajectory through life. Sometimes the depth of these perspectives is able to offer quite an epiphany when it comes to understanding difficult principles. Not necessarily recommended but I do draw from it from time to time when I am looking for something more.

A Companion to Yi Jing Numerology and Cosmology, Chinese Studies of Images and Numbers from Han (202 BCE - 220 CE) to Song (960 - 1279 CE), by Brent Nielsen. This is an invauable resource for tapping into information on the many scholars and schools of thought during this extensive time period, for those interested in digging a little deeper. It reads more like an encyclopedia than a traditional book, but is full of information difficult to find in English. Especially related to intricate calendar systems and philosophical usage of numbers like those behind the calculations found in the yarrow stalks method.

Modern commentaries tend to lack a consistent grasp of principle when compared to these works, in my experience, but I do quite appreciate some of the perspectives that modern commentaries can lend to an image of change. There are some I use but I won't mention them here as they are typically much more conventional.

When it comes to translations, I like to work with the likes of Stephen L. Field, Richard Rutt, Lars Bo Christensen for the more historical/scholarly perspective, as well as any number of translations I might pull off the shelf.

I also learn quite a bit from the following work:

Forest of Changes, translated by Christopher Gait. This Jiaoshi Yilin is of uncertain exact attribution, but seems to be give or take 0 BC. Gait also provides some wonderful footnotes detailing historical accounts critical to deciphering the poems. When it comes to multiple changing lines, or unchanging hexagrams, it may become more challenging to interpret the reading. There are 4096 potential results for a divination, and this work shares a poem for each of them. These poems bring quite the illumination to work from, as we are reaching back yet further into the philosophical period, and certain patterns become clearly represented in terms of the nature of how the I Ching was used in this period.

This begins to get into how my methodology differs from modern conventional practices.

For example, the common interpretations for hexagram 1 or 2 unchanging, are simply of the heavenly yang energy, or of the receptive yin energy. But from a glimpse at the poems of hexagram 1 and 2 unchanging in the Forest of Changes, we see that hexagram 1 unchanging is depicted as a chaotic energy with no way through, and hexagram 2 is depicted as an open road that poses no obstacles to moving forward.

These are very clear and key principles that we may work from to understand how to work with the nature of changing lines.

I made a couple of posts about how I examined parts of the Great Commentary, the DaZhuan, to discover a concept of active and passive yin and yang. The idea is fairly simple, but opens things up quite a bit when it comes to interpretation. In our divination we get a 6 7 9 or 9 for each line.
  • 6 is active yin
  • 7 is inactive yang
  • 8 is inactive yin
  • 9 is active yang
The basic idea is that when yang is inactive, it is like concentrated strength, but that when it is active that strength begins emanate. And that when yin is inactive, it is gathered in upon itself, and when it is active, it opens up and becomes diffuse and receptive.

This further steps into the question regarding the probability of the yarrow stalks, as well as the notion of changing lines.

  • Why is there a lower probability for yin to change to yang within the yarrow stalk method than for yang to yange to yin?
  • When we get a 6 or a 9, does that indicate that the line is absolutely changing polarity, or is something else going on?
I find that both of these questions can be answered to my satisfaction in the same way. The second question becomes a more relevant issue when we consider that some line statements do not seem to be indicating the type of polarity shift that we would consider from strictly looking at a change that was considered to be absolute.

Take hexagram 24, line 1 - if we are given this line, a 9 for position 1, well that would indicate that this line is changing from yang to yin by modern convention. However, the line statement suggests a return from not far away. Cheng Yi explores this dynamic here, and the advice seems to be more calling to attention the need to return from an errant way back to the central way of things. This would suggest that the change indicated by a 6 or a 9 is not absolute but is active and at the mercy of the proclivities of the type of change described by the hexagram. Indeed if we continue to explore the many lines we can see this type of advice very clearly, and all manner of deepening of understanding is offered for us to gain insight on.

So if we are working with this idea of changes that become active but do not necessarily change, then what of unchanging divinations?

Here we might work with the above principle and declare that these lines are all in their passive, inactive states, and thus offer a different type of interpretation.

In both cases the Forest of Changes gives ample support to this theory. For hexagram 24 line 1, changing to hexagram 2, we get a reading that indicates someone who is unable to reverse the folly of their ways, very much at odds with the conventional interpretation of the line statement of being able to return from not far away:

Reason cannot overcome emotion,
And the desire for selfish plotting.
Greedily seeking profits produces danger,
Breaking horns, breaking necks.


For unchanging 2 we have all the yin lines in their inactive state, and we are given this reading:

No wind, no rain,
Bright daylight.
A good day to go riding,
Galloping down the wide road.


It is the image of a hard packed road that poses no obstacle to forward moving. Whereas if all the yin lines were open and actively changing to yang, we might predict some element of active receptivity. 2 changing to 1:

The northeast wind blows,
And myriad living things awake.
The east wind brings them to maturity,
And the leaves and flowers spread forth.


And so there is an element of fertility to be found here within active/open yin.

For hexagram 1 unchanging, we might expect to see the effect of a type of energy that is all condensed and concentrated upon itself, but what does that mean for a reading?

The road ascends the stony cliffs,
The Hu people's language is just as rugged.
The interpreters seem deaf and mute,
There is no translating it.
Seeking an audience but it is not granted,
Seeking accomplishments but not acquiring merit.


A bit chaotic. Without this perspective of inactive and active lines, it doesn't make sense. With this perspective, it does. For all yang lines active and changing to yin, we might expect to see something a bit extreme. 1 changing to 2:

Courting disaster and inviting trouble,
Fury descends on our country like poisonous stingers.
My arms and legs hurt,
I cannot sleep.


And indeed we do.

The pattern fits, but only from the perspective of active and passive states of change.

Now that we have explored the idea of active and passive states of change, we can reflect a bit more on how active and passive yang and yin are different.

For me the simplest and clearest example is one of fertility. Yang fertility involves projection, penetration, thrusting forth, and then it is spent, done, and it retires. Yin fertility involves opening, receiving, growing, incubating, birthing. It is not always ready to receive and takes time to transform yin into yang, where yang is ready to spend itself again and again.

Thus we may see that active yang transforming to yin is like energy being used to change something. I walk all day and become tired. I unleash a burst of emotion and cause a chain of events. And yin transforming to yang is our taking in of something enough that it begins to create a phase that relates to a new strength or activity or life.

It is clear there are many ways that yang may change to yin, and yin change to yang, and there are all explored within the I Ching.

In any case I haven't got it all figured out, but here is where I am and this is the type of reflection I do.

Hopefully this post is able to serve as an explanation of my process and methodology and an introduction to the works I learn the most from. Thanks for reading, and blessings to your change.
 
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Thomas6

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As for the usage of "Forest of Changes"we can translate the Fuxi's trigrams to King Wen's.
☱☰☴
☲X☵
☳☷☶
This is the so-called Fuxi's trigrams diagram.

☴☲☷
☳X☱
☶☵☰
This is the so-called King Wen's trigrams diagram. For example,
☰ mapped to ☲,
☴ mapped to ☷,
☶ mapped to ☰ and so on.

Actually, ䷀ in Iqing is mapped to ䷝ in Forest of Changes.
So ䷀ in Forest of Changes mapped to ䷳ in Iqing.
䷁ in Forest of Changes mapped to ䷸ in Iqing.

Conclusion: Foxi's and King Wen's trigram digrams may be created in a same era.
 

Daeluin

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As for the usage of "Forest of Changes"we can translate the Fuxi's trigrams to King Wen's.
What is there to tell us to do so?

Forest of Changes is Han.
The Xian Tian Tu originated in Song.

Why would a Han era manuscript need to be translated to a much later Song arrangement of the hexagrams?

Even if the Xian Tian Tu does indeed come from the Shougua and all records of such a diagram were destroyed until it was recreated by Shao Yong, why would we translate the Forest of Changes to a new sequence? Is there something that tells us it was intended to be interpreted this way?

The hexagrams in the Jiaoshi Yilin are not given as numbers, but as their names. Why would:
乾之:乾:道陟石阪,胡言連蹇。譯瘖且聾,莫使道通。請謁不行,求事無功。
refer to a hexagram other than 乾 ?
 

Thomas6

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乾之:乾:道陟石阪,胡言連蹇。譯瘖且聾,莫使道通。請謁不行,求事無功。
Is it the representation of 乾? So, you need to throw all the book about original Iqing. "道陟石阪" should be translated as "climbing on steep slopes"and"請謁不行" should be translated as "cannot to meet somebody" simply
 
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Thomas6

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離之離:時乘六龍,為帝使東。達命宣旨,無所不通。
So, Your 離 represent "driving six dragons"? "時乘六龍" is a original text for 乾 in Iqing.
 
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Thomas6

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甲子甲午坤乾見,乙丑乙未嗑井連.
丙寅丙申家人解,丁卯丁酉損咸先.
戊辰戊戌履謙是,己巳己亥壯觀焉.
庚午庚子恆益在,辛未辛丑訟夷聯.
壬申壬寅師同出,癸酉癸卯漸妹添.
甲戌甲辰蹇睽到,乙亥乙巳晉需天.
丙子丙午頤大過,丁丑丁未隨蛊堅.
戊寅戊申豐渙好,己卯己酉節旅田.
庚辰庚戌泰否卦,辛巳辛亥有比連.
壬午壬子巽震會,癸未癸丑困贲前.
甲申甲寅未既濟,乙酉乙卯遁臨錢.
丙戌丙辰艮兌現,丁亥丁巳豫畜眠.
戊子戊午屯鼎內,已丑己未妄升天.
庚寅庚申離坎聚,辛卯辛酉孚過先.
壬辰壬戌大畜萃,癸巳癸亥訣剝前.

Do you know how hexagrams mapped to the Chinese Ganzhis(干支)? As you see above. The period it emerged in is Ziue/Dang(隋、唐) dynasty roughly.
According to the formula above, it can be reduced to:
甲子䷁䷗ 丙子䷚ 戊子䷂ 庚子䷩ 壬子䷲ 乙丑䷔ 丁丑䷐ 己丑䷘ 辛丑䷣ 癸丑䷕ 甲寅䷾ 丙寅䷤ 戊寅䷶ 庚寅䷝䷰ 壬寅䷌ 乙卯䷒ 丁卯䷨...辛巳䷍ 癸巳䷪ 甲午䷀䷫ 丙午䷛ 戊午䷱ 庚午䷟ 壬午䷸ 乙未䷯ 丁未䷑ 己未䷭ 辛未䷅ 癸未䷮...
it just likes your Xiantian diagram. No need any diagram of Shao Yong(邵雍).
 
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Daeluin

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Do you know how hexagrams mapped to the Chinese Ganzhis(干支)? As you see above. The period it emerged in is Ziue/Dang(隋、唐) dynasty roughly.
This is very interesting.

According to the formula above, it can be reduced to:
甲子䷁䷗ 丙子䷚ 戊子䷂ 庚子䷩ 壬子䷲ 乙丑䷔ 丁丑䷐ 己丑䷘ 辛丑䷣ 癸丑䷕ 甲寅䷾ 丙寅䷤ 戊寅䷶ 庚寅䷝䷰ 壬寅䷌ 乙卯䷒ 丁卯䷨...辛巳䷍ 癸巳䷪ 甲午䷀䷫ 丙午䷛ 戊午䷱ 庚午䷟ 壬午䷸ 乙未䷯ 丁未䷑ 己未䷭ 辛未䷅ 癸未䷮...
it just likes your Xiantian diagram. No need any diagram of Shao Yong(邵雍).
I saw in Ni Hua Ching's The Book of Changes and the Unchanging Truth there were some diagrams of the GanZhi's, one of which matched this pattern more or less:

PXL_20220515_213546754.png

So I updated this chart to include the hexagrams:

ganzhi-yijing-web.png
I created it as an svg file, which is zoomable to any scale. But this website doesn't support/allow svg.

Very very interesting that the 'xiantian' pattern is revealed like this pre Shao Yong's work.

I'm curious where this sequence / poem comes from. I like it and will study more.
 
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Daeluin

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離之離:時乘六龍,為帝使東。達命宣旨,無所不通。
So, Your 離 represent "driving six dragons"? "時乘六龍" is a original text for 乾 in Iqing.

Yes this text from hexagram 1 appears in the Forest's hexagram 30 unchanging.

And yes, I can indeed see Li as responsible for driving the 6 yang dragons of heaven - much as in the concept of the big bang. Or in the nature of the 'firing process' to arrive at completion of refinement of yang.

What I sense here is the concept of the xian tian energies coming through into hou tian.

I'm still exploring, will post more as I find greater clarity.
 

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What I sense here is the concept of the xian tian energies coming through into hou tian.
I think it is just a brilliant idea for preventing someone to read it. So, after two thousand years, 乾 in Forest of Changes still represent "rock slopes" but have not any other views.
 
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I'm still exploring, will post more as I find greater clarity.
I think that any books of changes is cannot translated from chinese. I have a divination that:
What 's the result about I try my best to beat Bruce Lee(李小龍)?
I get a 乾.
No matter what the result is. 乾 represent 龍. but 龍 is not equal to Bruce.
 

Daeluin

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I think that any books of changes is cannot translated from chinese.
And yet hexagrams are their own language, and a language of interconnected principles.

So they may be reasoned out, just as any have done before.

I am not Chinese and have discovered much. Clearly I am limited by much as well. And still something carries over.

In the west I see most people stumble over this concept, and even in attempting to describe the phenomena we fumble. But it is when we are finally able to come to a place looking at how all is connected and connecting within change that we become able to see the forest within the trees.

People are more likely to get what their western minds find within it, but some do learn to see between the lines.

I think it is just a brilliant idea for preventing someone to read it.
I have read that some ideas became threatening to the state, so were destroyed or manipulated or replaced. This would indeed be a brilliant way of hiding a poignant secret. Perhaps if the Fu Xi diagram did exist prior to Shao Yong then it was kept alive in this way. Clearly there is something beneath the surface here.

So, after two thousand years, 乾 in Forest of Changes still represent "rock slopes" but have not any other views.

And yet it is 52 unchanging in Forest that speaks about the stillness represented by the mountain hexagram.
 

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And yet it is 52 unchanging in Forest that speaks about the stillness represented by the mountain hexagram.

艮之:
艮:君孤獨處(chu),單弱无輔(fu),名曰困苦(ku)。
It is "艮之艮" in Forest of Changes by Song(宋) dynasty and Yuan(元) dynasty.
add "輔心湧泉,碌碌如山" at the end of the sentence by Ming(明) dynasty.
But actually, 泉 and 山(mountain) are not rhyme in ancient Chinese language.
 
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Daeluin

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@Thomas6 So far in my readings, it is always the original sequence and not the decoded one that reveals meaning to me. Sometimes it is confusing, but it can be worked out according to my methods of determining whether or not the line should actually be allowed to change. Doing the same with the decoded version does not meet with the same uncanny resonance, though I cannot discount that there may be another way of working with that correlation. I just am working with the one that actually leads to clarity.
 

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@Thomas6 So far in my readings, it is always the original sequence and not the decoded one that reveals meaning to me. Sometimes it is confusing, but it can be worked out according to my methods of determining whether or not the line should actually be allowed to change. Doing the same with the decoded version does not meet with the same uncanny resonance, though I cannot discount that there may be another way of working with that correlation. I just am working with the one that actually leads to clarity.
The first time I used 焦氏易林, I take a divination about "郭威(A.D. 9/10/904-2/22/954"). I get the hexgram 1->13. 1->13 in 焦氏易林 is: 子号索哺,母行求食。反见空巢,訾我长息。If I map the 1-13 to 30->21. 30-21 in 焦氏易林 is: 金城铁郭,上下仝力,政平民欢,寇不敢贼。
 
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Thomas6

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As you see above, "龙(龍)" in "时乘六龍" is a chinese character also in "李小龍(Bruce Lee)", but not "dragon". "郭" in "金城铁郭" is a chinese character also in "郭威(Guo Wei)", but not "city". I think that all Chinese characters in I-qing or I-lin is cannot be translated.
 
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Daeluin

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1-13:

The child cries to be fed,
The mother goes out seeking grain.
Returning she finds the nest empty,
Crying and sighing for her lost little one.


30-21:

An impregnable fortress, its walls of iron,
Equal forces above and below.
The government is equitable,
The people content,
The bandits dare not attack.


Hexagram 1 line 2 active, Cleary/Liu Yiming:

Seeing the dragon in the field: It is beneficial to see the great person. When strength gains balance, and is not one-sided or partial, firmness and flexibility match each other. This is like seeing the dragon in the field; the living energy is always there, natural goodness is not obscured, the spiritual embryo takes on form. A great person is one who does not lose the innocent mind of an infant, and is therefore "beneficial to see."

I would say that this line is not being advised to change. The strength is balanced and "the living energy is always there", so we aren't meant to use it up and let it exhaust into becoming yin. Seeing the great person is also a coded saying for seeing the great person that comes to rejoin one through the mysterious gate, which comes of emptiness, kun ☷, the position of the southwest.

From Liu Yiming's Cultivating the Tao (tl Fabrizio Pregadio), we have a chapter titled The other house and my house:

The Wuzhen pian says:

You should know that the source of the stream, the place where the Medicine is born,​
is just at the southwest -- that is its native village.​

The southwest is the land of Kun ☷, the place where the Yin culminates and the Yang is born. Lu Ziye said:

The Medicine comes forth in the southwest, the position of Kun;​
if you wish to seek the position of Kun, how could it be separated from that "man"?​
I have disclosed the secret in clear words, and you should remember it;​
but I am afraid that when you meet him, you will not recognize the True.​

The name of this man is "man who does not die," or True Man (zhenren). An ancient immortal said:

If you want a man not to die,​
you must seek the man who does not die.​

We have different translators here and different contexts, but the principle is clearly talking about the same thing. What Liu Yiming writes about concerning hexagram 1 line 2 is the same as what he writes about concerning meeting one's true self within the mystery that opens when one allows emptiness to culminate within the fullness of the yuan qi.

So really we are not being advised to go on a journey to meet someone here, but to meet our true self that does not die, whom may be found within a portal inside of ourselves to another dimension.

If we were to allow this yang line to change to yin and exhaust our yuan qi (true yang), then we would not be able to meet this person, but would have instead abandoned them. Thus if this line changes to yin, it is like abandoning something that is most precious. And when we return we find that it is gone.




Hexagram 30 line 3 active:

The afternoon light; unless you drum on a jug and sing, there will be the lament of old age, which is unfortunate. If you are only strong and not flexible, and only know to employ illumination and do not know to nurture illumination, then strong illumination is excessive. This is like the light of the afternoon sun: Having reached the peak of its height, it inevitably goes down; having reached the peak of illumination, it inevitably grows dark. So if one cannot drum on a jug and sing, there will be the lament of old age; unbalanced, one will only reap misfortune. This is using illumination and ruining illumination oneself.

Here it seems we are being advised to change. For if we do not change, we are clinging to strength and not operating flexibility. So we need to use some of our strength up so that it can change to yin, and that yin gives us flexibility. By drumming on a jug and singing, we use up that strength and at the same time it's call goes forth and inspires others, and this is nurturing illumination with our flexibility.

This sort of inspiring of others leads to comradery and a lot of shared resonance. We uplift what is stagnant and prevent excessive strength from becoming too brittle by allowing its use to give it a renewal. Thus we achieve the equal forces within our fortress that are not overly strong but also flexible, with a great deal of life and energy within its walls. What bandit would dare attack if we could achieve this change?
 
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Thomas6

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When strength gains balance, and is not one-sided or partial, firmness and flexibility match each other. This is like seeing the dragon in the field; the living energy is always there, natural goodness is not obscured, the spiritual embryo takes on form. A great person is one who does not lose the innocent mind of an infant, and is therefore "beneficial to see."

I would say that this line is not being advised to change. The strength is balanced and "the living energy is always there", so we aren't meant to use it up and let it exhaust into becoming yin. Seeing the great person is also a coded saying for seeing the great person that comes to rejoin one through the mysterious gate, which comes of emptiness, kun ☷, the position of the southwest.
I cannot understand this kind of philosophical prehension. Because philosophical prehension can described on anything to one's view.
For Hexagram 30->21, when you map it to Hexgram 51-62, I-Lin say: 石门晨门(Song/Yuan version is 關(關/关:close),Jigu version is 啓(啓/启: open),荷蒉食贫。遁世隐居,竟不逢时。
石门晨门 is related on <The Analects of Confucius(孔丘)>. Zi Lu(子路) reside in 石门. entrance guard(晨门) ask: Where are you from(奚自)?
子路: From Confucius's clan(孔氏).
entrance guard: Is it the man(Confucius) who knows what is impossible and do it(是知其不可而为之者与)?
"遁世隐居,竟不逢时" retiracy and seclusion, he cannot get a favourable opportunity(time, era) in the end(竟: the end, die, etc).
30->21 in Iqing: 日昃之离,不鼓缶而歌,则大耋之嗟,凶。象曰:日昃之离,何可久也。
translate <象>."日昃之离,何可久也"The afternoon light, how can it illuminate permanently!

I cannot translate "时/時" accurately. it may be:
season, time, hour, opportunity, fortune
 
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Daeluin

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I cannot understand this kind of philosophical prehension. Because philosophical prehension can described on anything to one's view.

It is indeed grasping, but this grasping is done according to the principles available.

When dealing in daoist cosmology, there is an order to things and a reason. It is meant to be consistent. After all it is all based on natural balanced principle.

There can still be trouble getting it right, but when we do get it right things seem to be clear.

This is also how daoist alchemical classics were written. In code, so that one who understood what it spoke about found it to be plain as day, but one who did not comprehend that principle yet could not make sense of it.

There is plenty of grasping to be done with the Forest. And, so far, I've found much more clarity than grasping. What I cannot grasp usually I do not understand well yet. Multiple line changes are complex.

However the pattern is consistent for me, and I have not run into any dead ends with this methodology yet, and just a couple stretches. Instead of seeing lots of grasping and stretching, there is incredible clarity and depth of understanding added that reveals an unmistakably advanced comprehension of the principles of each hexagram. IMO.


51-62

An early morning encounter at Stone Gate,
The impoverished man with a basket on his back.
Leaving the world to become a recluse,
Neither sagely nor timely.


The first line doesn't matter much. The last character doesn't matter much either, since it is telling us it is a negative outcome.

If this is for 30 line 2 changing, then we are being advised to drum and sing, which is a change. We are being told to work with strength and flexibility, not just strength. If we don't change, that is what gets us lament from old age, so if we do change, that would imply something positive. But the Forest writes about what happens when there is change, and is describing something negative.

What is happening here? The old man is leaving the world behind and this isn't favorable, nor is it a balance of strength and flexibility - at least according to the poem, which is referring to a particular type of change.

So I don't see how this fits with 30 line 2.

What if we look at 51 lines 1 and 3 active?

To understand the Forest's perspective I find it helpful to look at each line by itself first.

51 line 1 changing to 16:

Venus glows fiercely,
Carrying a sword through Wu.
The chariot constellation wanders,
Moving below Jupiter.
Two tigers face off, glaring,
Bows and crossbows in the wilds


(Cleary/Yiming) When thunder comes, alarm; afterward, laughter. Auspicious. In the beginning of movement and action, if one can be careful and wary about what is as yet unperceived, this is how it is that there is alarm when thunder comes, laughter afterward. First being alarmed means distinguishing right and wrong, being careful in the beginning. Laughter afterward means mental attainment comes out in action, becoming compete in the end. First wary, afterward joyful; this is most auspicious for action. This represents action in which strength and firmness are correctly applied.

Here again, it seems complex at first, but there is consistency. Each section of the Forest is describing something that grasps ones attention sharply, forcing one to check to see if there is need for alarm.
  • Venus is a planet known as war - when it glows fiercely, it might be good to send messengers to see if there are any signs of war.
  • Carrying a sword through Wu, the noon hour, could be seen from different perspectives, but it is a highly visible hour, and a highly active hour. If one is seen carrying a sword like this, one might need to check to determine if there is need for alarm, if things are safe or not.
  • The same can likely be implied of the next ones about the chariot constellation and Jupiter.
  • Two tigers facing off are precisely trying to gauge the others strength and determine if there should be alarm or if they can move on.
  • Seeing bows and crossbows in the wilds, one needs to check to see the intent of those who carry them.
Liu Yiming is advising caution here, and that caution is what prevents unnecessary action. However it can be argued that the clap of lightning is so fast that we have no control over restraining its change - what we have control over is restraining our response to that change, which comes of either using the laughter as our release of the change, or some greater release in the form of actions through lines 2 and 3.

If the tigers exercise restraint following their alarm, then the tension they carry can be released. The more one understands the dynamics of the lines in the hexagram, the more this becomes clear and is not reaching.

51 line 3 changing to 55:

In a land of felt clothing that smells of sheep,
They know nothing of culture and rites.
To ride a horse, to draw a bow, to invade our land,
that is all.

Frightened by thunder; wary action is free from trouble. When there is weakness where there should be strength, fearing one's own inability one also fears that action will lead into trouble; trembling in fear inside and out, body and mind are incapable of self-mastery. However, if the will is strong in spite of weakness of constitution, one can approach people imbued with Tao and borrow their strength to overcome one's own weakness. Then one will be able to do what one couldn't do before. Therefore by wary action one can eliminate trouble. This represents being wary of one's own weakness and seeking the aid of others.


The principle of Zhen is that line 1 is the clap of vibration, line 2 is the strong carrying forth of that vibration, and line 3 is the end of the vibration. So here in line 3 there is weakness inherent in the line. The thunder is already gone but one still fears it. This is just the yin line, active, but not changing. To change it would need a determination to change that is not really being called for.

It is like responding to someone that calls "hey" across a busy city street full of people. It is far away and there is little reason to believe that it would have to do with me, but I respond anyway. Or maybe that is line 1 and 3, but for just line 3 it would be as though I responded without anyone calling "hey".

So now does it become clear why the Forest speaks of this tribe who are quick to attack and give no thought to culture or rites? The change here is unnecessary and extreme in some way, out of place.

Putting the two together, we have an impulse to change in line 1 that is not laughed over, with the resolve to change what is unnecessary to change in line 3, and we have our "impoverished" man leaving to become a recluse, likely after some line 1 call was heard but not set down.

The difference between line 3 changing and lines 1 and 3 changing is that there was a call. It is consistent.

To me these things need to be worked out. But they follow the principles well. Can it perhaps be seen from other perspectives? Sure - but those perspectives can all inform each other and be reasoned out according to what interpretation best matches the principle of the changes. If they both match equally well, then they point to another principle that combines them in a simpler form. Such is the way.

Here I think I have some work to do to understand it more clearly, as there are some inconsistencies with line 3, but I still feel the clarity sees through well enough to how it all adds up and to where clear meaning can be found within it without reaching.
 
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The first line doesn't matter much. The last character doesn't matter much either, since it is telling us it is a negative outcome.
I do not agree with your view. Chinese classic book alway deliberate a clause and word repeatly. But generally we don't know their literary allusion.

Like I-Lin 29-33: 匏瓜之德,宜繫不食。君子失輿,官正懷憂。"匏瓜之德,宜繫不食" is:
The gourd should be hang on the gourd tree but we don't eat it. Furtherly, Confucius compare himself as a gourd.
 
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Daeluin

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I do not agree with your view.
I'm speaking loosely for this one poem. I say that it doesn't matter much in this instance, because we have enough to get meaning from that aligns with the yijing line statement. There is a frail person, they are leaving, it is negative.

I do not see you explaining the meaning in terms of the yijing line statements at all to argue that the Forest should be decoded differently, but you still speak of prehension. Finding some character matches from material throughout the centuries does not matter much if the meaning still doesn't make sense.
 

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I do not see you explaining the meaning in terms of the yijing line statements at all to argue that the Forest should be decoded differently
Because I cannot explain it for you. I use 六壬&六爻 to explain Iqing but you may not study them, even you study them and you are a native-born Chinese. I just want to tell you that I-Lin should be decoded. Further, it is my own's method. For example, 乾:
壬戌▅▅▅▅▅世
壬申▅▅▅▅▅
壬午▅▅▅▅▅
甲辰▅▅▅▅▅
甲寅▅▅▅▅▅
甲子▅▅▅▅▅

戌甲辰 申丁卯:
辰壬子 寅乙亥:
丑壬戌 亥乙酉
戌甲辰.png
申丁卯.png 辰壬子.png 寅乙亥.png
 
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Daeluin

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I am not Chinese, I am western but have learned to cultivate a relationship with dao from a daoist master who is also western. My own path with the yi and so on comes from my destiny. I do not write Chinese, and I only know some characters, though I have enough experience with them that I can make use of translation tools to get a sense of what is being spoken of with some effort.

Like I said, I can not disagree that this decoding method is not valid, I just do not see the meaning at all when I decode it like this. For me, when decoded it seems it would have another way of being interpreted, since the poems do not add up for mundane situations when they are decoded, but they do for the regular sequence. If this is a xiantian decoding, then the meaning seems like it would go deeper than the mundane.

No, I have not studied Liu Ren - I'll purchase this book and study it a little to see if I have resonance. Perhaps the Liu Ren gives a way to understand the Yi where this way of decoding is given meaning that I cannot currently see. So I simply explain the meaning behind what I can see. Perhaps both methods have their usefulness from different perspectives and applications.

It may take me some time to digest this new information, so please be patient with me. Perhaps in time we can share in more meaningful conversations.
 

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But I can share my divination examples using I-Lin.
郭威(Guo Wei): Hexagram 1->13;
靖难之役(Jingnan campaign): Hexagram 42->3;
Is inserting Ganzhi on Hexagrams of Jing Fang correct? Hexagram 12->31;
Is there a ghost in my house? Hexagram 15...
 

Daeluin

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But I can share my divination examples using I-Lin.
Thanks! I'll explore this more when I am able to interpret from the perspective of the Liu Ren.

It seems like you use the I-Lin to decode, and to provide examples of decoding in how characters are hidden within the decoding. But you do not use the I-Lin to interpret, but use the Liu Ren to interpret.

So perhaps the I-Lin is a key to show the connection here only? If we cannot showcase how the meaning of the poems for these readings is found, then perhaps the poems are not used for interpretation of the hidden pattern you are revealing.

This is why I am confused. You say I am prehending meaning as I like by using the King Wen sequence, and you say that the poems are meant to be for the decoded sequence. But you don't seem to use the decoded poems for your interpretation, but you use the Liu Ren for interpretation. So what are the poems for?

To my sense, their meaning applies to the King Wen sequence for mundane affairs, but there may be hidden resonance to point people at the decoding so that something deeper can be discovered that resonates more with other methods of interpretation.
 

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I think I can expain that why I-Lin need to be decoded. For example: 乾.
Usually, we fixedly say 乾=䷀=heaven. But let me refers to my thread:
☰元(天、魁)
☱睪(澤,皋)
☲至(否、㔻、丕)
☳辰(震、振、辰、阵、陈、东、瞰)
☴丰(风、封、豐)
☵兑
☶干(乾、榦)
☷复(覆穴、復、闭)
Actually, ䷀(天,元) meaning heaven, president, etc. but it named 乾 in Iqing.
䷳ (乾\干\榦) meaning dry, trunk, etc. but it named 艮 in Iqing.
☵(兑、锐、水、对、初) meaning water, penetrative, piercing, but it named 坎 in Iqing.
Then 坎 meaning pit/hole(覆穴)/tomb
☱☰☴
☲M☵
☳☷☶

☴☲☷
☳M☱
☶☵☰
 
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