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proserpine

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Dobro--I'm just realizing--if what your point was that if the Yi won't tell us about someone else anyway or only if it s not too personal etc.----then your question is besides the point--well--maybe so yeah.
But--maybe the answers were besides the point, or, your point/question *is* a moot question if we are certain the I Ching will not tell us about someone else anyway.
Are we? ;-)
 
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meng

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Awhile back I was angry with someone, angry and frustrated. I put this to the Yi: Show me where this person is concerning this matter. A: 25

All anger fizzled out of me, replaced with understanding. The entire process transpired in under 5 minutes.

I think a fundamental truism about ones own readings is, it's not always about me. Nor is it always about the other, be it object or person. Usually it's about the blending of "me" and the other person or object. Some things (objects and people) just don't blend together well, and that's fine too. There are lessons about leaving, conflicting, opposing, obstructing, and burning huts, in the Yi, just as there are lessons of peace, unity and sharing a cup of wine.
 
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proserpine

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Ah, Dobro--I have an answer for you as towhich of those most resembles my own beleif.

I believe also that what we most need to know is always about ourselves, even though the I Ching will sometimes give us information about others.

I think that what I believe most is this :that the I Ching will answer acording to our own ability to comprehnd but even more importantly--what we most need to know or do in that particular situation or, at that time in our lives.
So, then, the *type* of answer I receive most may be different than another person's.I rememebr asking questons many yrs agoabout someone else, and sometimes receieved answers to that end.Or, in simply laying bare the likely scenario to expect soon.
But so very often it would just be attempting to tell me about myself, and what I needed to understand most in the situation (with whomever)..
 

proserpine

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in response to meng's response to cake logic's post

Cake logic"Awhile back I was angry with someone, angry and frustrated. I put this to the Yi: Show me where this person is concerning this matter. A: 25
All anger fizzled out of me, replaced with understanding. The entire process transpired in under 5 minutes."

And meng went on to say(and I'm paraphrasing) how the issue and answer isn't always about me or them --basically it's larger than that and *more*.And I like megn's reply very much.

I didn't see it until now, after posting (several times).:eek:
That is exactly my point--it answered the person,(cakelogic) in such a way to help *you* the most.
If I understand correctly,what meng expressed is what I was saying another way.
And, #25 in reply to cake's question-- it wasn't about their response to someone only, or just about the other's side or p.o.v.--it was much more an answer that fit--and gives a solution that helps *you* see above and beyond where you were right then.
That is so much of what I was trying to say--(but maybe am too tired to make sense.):p
I see one of you said the same thing- too.:)
-I'll sign off now before my babbling begins. :bows:
 
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Tohpol

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Ah, relief.

Topal, I certainly didn't just mean to eat cake; good heavens, far too many calories for any more than an occasional slice! No, I mean the miracle of how seemingly unrelated ingredients can blend so well into such a delicious end result.

Sure can. I'm all for food metaphors.

Topal
 

Trojina

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I'd go steady on what you say about cake. Last time Marie Antoinette mentioned it it got her guillotined :eek:
 

dobro p

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Dobro--I'm just realizing--if what your point was that if the Yi won't tell us about someone else anyway or only if it s not too personal etc.----then your question is besides the point--well--maybe so yeah.
But--maybe the answers were besides the point, or, your point/question *is* a moot question if we are certain the I Ching will not tell us about someone else anyway.
Are we? ;-)

Thanks for actually responding to the thread question lol.

The reason I started the thread was to find out what other people thought about the three ideas I put in the first post - I've got my own view of things (asking the Yi what other people are thinking is either unskillful or an invasion of their privacy), but I'm willing to be persuaded out of my belief because I'd be happier about things if I didn't have that belief. Make sense?

But in the end, the conclusion I'm drawing about this question is that although different people have different opinions about it, and although they're willing even to argue about it, nobody really KNOWS how the Yi works. And *that* is the reason there's such heated debate about it, if I'm not mistaken.

So, what am I going to do about it? Well, I think, because I don't really know how the Yi works, that I'll stop telling people they're using the Yi the wrong way if they ask about other people's feelings and states of mind. I think I'll stop telling them it's an invasion of another's privacy to do that, because to tell the truth, although it seems that's the case, I don't really KNOW that it's the case. I mean, for all I know, the Yi might be refusing to give the questioner any information about the other person at all, right? However, I will continue to tell people that there are more skillful questions to be asking than "what does he really feel about me?" because that's far more clear to me.
 

mudpie

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But in the end, the conclusion I'm drawing about this question is that although different people have different opinions about it, and although they're willing even to argue about it, nobody really KNOWS how the Yi works.

and that's a wrap.
Take five everyone.

and have a piece of grandma's pound cake:)
 

fkegan

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and that's a wrap.
Take five everyone.

and have a piece of grandma's pound cake:)

Hardly actually, though Dobro seems to have satisfied his curiosity on the subject...
nobody really KNOWS how the Yi works. And *that* is the reason there's such heated debate about it, if I'm not mistaken.

A number of people replied from their experience and thus knowledge of how the Yi works. That wasn't what Dobro had in his tunnel vision, and the detail that the problem was not in the Yi or other folks, but in his blinders was also mentioned several ways and several times.

Seems a good time to follow the traditional advice that those who know do not say. However, the Yi is good at telling everyone what they need to know at this point. So to the question of what was Dobro actually experiencing that came out in this thread--I cast the pennies and got: Hex 62 without moving lines. You can interpret that oracle yourself if you care for such things or leave it ineffable if you prefer.

Frank
 

emc2cme

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Frank

Just out of curiosity, Frank. Why does every I Ching discussion in which you participate, end up revolving around you, instead of the topic initially suggested? Have you ever once in your life just let something happen around you, without jumping in to try to run the show? It's been a long day, and I clocked in here hoping to find some interesting conversation. I did, but then I also found Frank, Frank, Frank. Don't you get tired of being you sometimes?
 

proserpine

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I think listnener only meant, we don't know, for absolute certain, and dobro acknowledges he doesn't either, so let's take a break.
 

rosada

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I interpret 62 as meaning "Close enough."
61 is Inner Truth and 62 comes after, thus by the time the inner truth has emerged from the heart chakra and made it's way up to the brain the earth has spun a bit, things have changed at least slightly and so we must take into account things may not be exactly as originally intended, maybe a few details to be adjusted, but for the most part, we've gotten pretty close to understanding Truth.
 

fkegan

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I interpret 62 as meaning "Close enough."
61 is Inner Truth and 62 comes after, thus by the time the inner truth has emerged from the heart chakra and made it's way up to the brain the earth has spun a bit, things have changed at least slightly and so we must take into account things may not be exactly as originally intended, maybe a few details to be adjusted, but for the most part, we've gotten pretty close to understanding Truth.

Hi Rosada,
Intriguing interpretation of hex 62, at least without moving lines. In terms of the Yang line structure there are only Yang lines in the heart line pair, full or explosive, while everything else is ignored background--no focus upon prior or Next, no structure, no mental organization--just raw inner emotion to the max--and without any change or connection to anything else with no moving lines. However, such total focus within can also be considered "pretty close to understanding Truth."

Frank
 

mudpie

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to the question of what was Dobro actually experiencing that came out in this thread--I cast the pennies and got: Hex 62 without moving lines. Frank

IF such a thing is possible, to cast for another's state of mind, I would say Dobro experienced what we all experienced, a rather persnickety obsession with what the Yi is about. Guilty as charged. ( frankly, you seem to have rather persnickety obsession with dobro, frank, but thats another matter:mischief:)

anyone who starts a thread which leads to such lively discussion, and so kindly receives such discussion, is immensely generous in my book of changes:)
 

fkegan

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Hi Listener,
The earlier Shang oracle bones answered questions like, "Will it rain tomorrow?" or "Will the battle be won today?" For the Yi to have become established it would have to be able to give good answers to any questions asked of it. What question wouldn't the Yi answer in general?

But you raise an interesting sidelight. We ask any question. We cast our oracle. We then interpret or misinterpret the result as our answer to the question. What is the relationship connecting these three. Jung suggested synchronicity as a possible principle that everything that happens close to the same time is connected like physics studies things that happen in the same place (billiard balls colliding and such). That still leaves open how they are connected and why (how) does the oracle work.

The larger question you raise, are we independent, separate entities with a private inner space which is either inaccessible or properly not to be accessed depends upon which interpretation one prefers, Buddhist or Western. And again, from either or any perspective, how much depends upon our assumptions and prejudices rather than any clear objective perception of what is happening around us.

Frank
 

proserpine

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Rickmatz's thoughts

I don't know Rick, you might not call it magic but the Yi shows me (imo) and in my experience more than what is in my mind already.Alhtough what I know unconsciously and intuitively is also be part of what is accessed, definitely.
 
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fkegan

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The notion that divination is simply a reflection of the details of the personal mind is a convenient avoidance of the true power of divination. With the increased capacity to observe the areas of the brain that are active, along with the actions of the nerves such an avoidance gets ever more difficult to continue. How would one's intuition carry out the process?

Logically, it is also suspect. First a question is framed. Then one's muscles carry out a complex manipulation of concrete objects. Then the results of those objects are 'read' as a set of numbers or lines. Then those lines are interpreted as an oracle. How would the knowledge of some inner portion of the individual mind control that to its ideal final result?

Both the understanding of the end meaning and the manipulation of the results of the concrete casting technique would require powers far more easily termed magical than simply intuitive. It is a total application of magical thinking to dismiss divination as just a reflection of personal intuition somehow controlling the entire outcome.

A more reasonable objective explanation would require that the question asked is controlled by the timing of this moment, which would also control how any coins or yarrow stalks processed, and thus what oracle developed. Then divination would be a technique to clear an open space or background upon which the structure of the current timing can take focus and be applied to some current question.

Frank
 

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