Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
I not referring so much to getting someone ON to a particular track; I'm talking about seeing they're probably off track, and then going along with it. Letting them feel comfortable with not looking further. Not a "Don't do this" but a "Here's a way you might like to look at it."
Luis,
There is individual Yi and there is team sport Yi--very different but each has its aficionados, though one rarely gets awarded so much as an ear no matter how well it goes.
As to being a Junzi--I still maintain it is just an abstract lesson in trigram allusions and Tao potentialities, not concrete advice or the oracle judgment that the right folks are superior and the other guys are inferior. In general the Junzi is the one who applies the trigram lesson to themselves and leaves the other folks in peace. Therefore, it would never come up objectively---the individual would just be quiet and reflective. No fun.
I agree with your remarks on appropriateness, but isn't that obvious in the original question and the comments? My interpretation is for the higher good, yours is inappropriate and his is downright bad, evil and ugly--when actually we are each and all just blowing steam and avoiding personal reflection which would require us to have Junzi restraint.
I never could see the Yi as a grandmother BTW but i guess that depends on ones grandmother associations.
oh don't get me wrong I loved my grandmother but somehow i could never quite figure her saying things anything like "the dragon is in the deep" and so on. She wasn't that deep. But when my bear lost an eye she made a new one with black wool which the Yi could never do.
More to the point. What is an inappropriate question or Oracle answer? Generally, if the Yi dislikes your question it has its own range of ways to rebuke the you for it.
Frank
Frank,
Here is what I think of "team sport Yi". I get the feeling you are "third-party metaphor challenged"--which in the scheme of things would be huge contradiction for someone dedicated to the study of the Yijing--but I'm sure you'll get the picture of what I'm trying to say for the Yi not lending itself to "team sports"...
No, Frank, the Junzi isn't as much of an abstraction as it is a metaphor for an ideal. Pretty much the same way Christ or the Buddha are metaphors of an ideal to look up to and emulate. The fact that, at some point in history, somebody was considered a Junzi and left his/her mark, is testament of an ideal all like-minded people should try to learn from and, to any possible extent, imitate. LiSe's thread on the subject, for example, was an application of the Junzi metaphor to the conceptual metaphors contained in the trigrams...
Consensus? The same sillybillies are being silly as ever because they still have no awareness of the fundamental issue of the Junzi, it isn't a status one can claim to have achieved, it is a perspective of applying circumstances to inner reflection not outer projection.Well, apparently, it wasn't obvious enough... It took over 90 messages to reach some semblance of a consensus.
YES it is and your Karma for your inaction or action which are your faults which you can not evade just by looking down upon them from some imagined great height.Frankly Frank I don't care what questions people ask the Yi. Its not my responsibilty is it
Thats why I don't care what people ask, like you said the Yi has its own ways to deflect questions it doesn't wish to directly answer. I agree with what you said here.
Quoting you because its my perception you've changed stance a few times in this thread which can get confusing.
Luis,
I have no idea what it might mean to be "third party metaphor challenged." To me you just made a poorly crafted remark that when responded to you claimed was a special metaphor. The video is good, but that isn't any sort of team sport being shown at all.
The staged video from an elitist job ad most clearly is not a team sport--they are all incompetent independent players paid to make mischief for the ad. The video is a nice metaphor for Shared Readings...but 'team sport' isn't.´-
Still clueless to what I'm talking about...A team, a group engaged in a joint enterprise for a common goal is a whole different kettle of metaphor. In terms of Shared Readings, that would suggest making them a shill for Hilary's paid services. The team of your video (actors playing to their script) moving folks to hire the employment firm of the ad. Then all the ruckus of the shared readings would have a joint purpose of convincing folks it was far better to hire Hilary than to suffer running that gauntlet.
Am I the only one noticing this disconnection between what other people write and what Frank replies to?? Frank, I know very well who those were in historical terms. What survives though, is the memory of the exceptionality of their lives and example. As something we should strive to achieve, their example is a metaphor, something to be treated as a "symbol" for us to look and learn, a good ideal to follow. In that sense, the Junzi is just another metaphor for an ideal. Who cares if the Junzi was a flesh and blood person or not? That's pretty much irrelevant to the discussion of its qualities. It is the ideal embodied by the conceptual Junzi what's important. It is the fact that both Christ and Buddha, the example I used, were Junzi.Christ or Buddha metaphors? I don't think so. They were each flesh and blood people who taught much simpler lessons than their later fame attributed to them. And then other folks still later try to see a metaphor in all that muddle for better something or other.
No, you made it "literary" and therein lies the problem of receiving spaghetti replies to simple concepts that are figurative in nature. You read the text but miss the emotion behind the words...The metaphor was a literary one, of applying trigram imagery to illustrate how to take a situation as an opportunity for ideal self-development.
Of course, no one can never claim to have achieved Junzihood. That doesn't obliterate de ideal behind its metaphoric example. Don't you think?Consensus? The same sillybillies are being silly as ever because they still have no awareness of the fundamental issue of the Junzi, it isn't a status one can claim to have achieved, it is a perspective of applying circumstances to inner reflection not outer projection.
Frank, for the most part, I reconsider by staying quiet. On the other hand, most of those instances I'm just bored to tears at the ping-pong nonsense and grand-standing...I read what you post and take it seriously, My replies involve real disagreements with what you state, not because I can't see the metaphor, but because I do see the limitations of the "metaphor"--again is the problem outside you or is it an opportunity to reconsider what you are saying?"
Am I the only one noticing this disconnection between what other people write and what Frank replies to??
He likes to belittle people too. Engaging with him doesn't make you wiser or happier. When you and I were having a good time in another thread, he accused us both of being 'disconcerted'. Disputatious, belittling, and just doesn't get it.
Hi Luis,What survives though, is the memory of the exceptionality of their lives and example. As something we should strive to achieve, their example is a metaphor, something to be treated as a "symbol" for us to look and learn, a good ideal to follow.
Two words, people: Open Space. This isn't about the I Ching any more.
Two words, people: Open Space. This isn't about the I Ching any more.
I don't much mind how people see the Yi its a personal choice but 'wise old Granny' to 'universal computer' is quite a leap.
I have just one word: cake
No, but that was quite civilized, I'll say. Don't you think? Don't worry, I know when usefulness (and fun) stops in a thread and didn't need the reminder.
Two words, Hilary: I disagree. This is about how users communicate about the I Ching. As long as it doesn't become rife and spread to other threads and turn the forum into a flame patch, the best place to give somebody feedback on their behavior is in the thread where they demonstrated that behavior. Both the fun and the bumps are part of the package.
I have just one word: cake
how seemingly unrelated ingredients can blend so well into such a delicious end result.
I know we'll not get much of , but will get plenty of and . We all want to be :bows: but are more likely to get or , I want to remain about this issue so everyone.
I'm voting for chocolate cake!
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).