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neegula

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i must say i'm very astonished that the oracle always answers to people that ask for loving affairs; i'm very astonished that He/She does not answer with hex 4 or something like that. sorry for being so sharp. hilary, you can ban me from now on. and i will retreat myself from here at once. first clarity and honesty and spirit, then material.
the same happens with prayers: i deduce Yi love humans very much. the spirit gives what humans ask, doesn't worry what it is "ok" for their life, It gives what asked.
in few months i read here, 8 persons out of 10 talk about loving affairs.
i'm quite tired seeing that the most important thing/matter many people have, concerns the boy/girlfriend. and maybe i'm just jalous. maybe not.:cool:
same way, italian people point at astrology and charts' reading as superstition, and then they read horoscopes in magazines.
i hope their life is getting very easy and nice.
i hope everything is very good with all of you.
all my love, really and Eternally.

nigula
 
D

diamanda

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in few months i read here, 8 persons out of 10 talk about loving affairs.
i'm quite tired seeing that the most important thing/matter many people have, concerns the boy/girlfriend.

But relationships between males and femakes are a very crucial matter.
This is how the human race reproduces, for one thing.
Do you consider this unimportant? :confused:
 
M

meng

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I think your question is very relevant, and it could be subject to a lot of debate. There are good cases for why Yi accommodates matters of relationships. How much of Yi is designed for every day affairs, and how much for deep inner searching? I believe history has always battled to keep and/or deliver that which is capable of profound understanding to the common man and woman for common problems, but none less important. Such as, when to plant the seeds, what to prepare for, when is best to bear the next generation?
 

fkegan

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Hi Neegula,

The Yi Oracle spirit is like a loving parent. It answers our questions that we ask from our heart. Cf.hex 4 even there a first answer to be given to any and all questions. It is only repeated questions without thinking that deserves rebuke.

I remember, back in the day when I asked many oracles about my relationship pain and suffering. I have been with friends who cast over a hundred Oracles a day who would ask about the loves in their life and then cry when the Oracle gave them an answer they so much didn't want to hear.

For myself, that was a major factor in my learning all the hexagrams in the Wilhelm, learning about addiction, being unable to stop casting hexagrams, learning to come out the other side of such problems without 12-step program or damage to my body.

It is how the West learns to relate to the I Ching. All ancient Chinese make accommodations in their outreach to the barbarian peoples and their strange magical beliefs in computers and other toxic technologies. In the literature even modern Chinese refer to binary math as advanced computer mathematics. However, it is actually only the simplest way to mechanize mathematics for machines that only have the capacity to register ON/OFF. Very fast now with microchips, but as the computer folks say just an amazingly fast idiot in terms of brain power.

Sorry it offends you. Avoid the shared reading section it will annoy you totally.

Frank
 
M

meng

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For a long time I had some indignation about using the Yi for trivial questions, when it seems there's some really important things we should know. But later in life, I began to see less difference in what we ask. What we really want is an affirmation of our being. i.e. an answer to our question. So the question is secondary from our desire to be connected. If we believe we already are connected, there's no need to question, there's just floating on the boat of knowing.
 
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meng

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Hexagram 08 Bi

Stand by

To stand by. Auspicious
The source of oracle consulting
 

neegula

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hi all, dear friends,
i stopped time ago opening "shared reading" right for this reason, what i saw was that many times lot of people were coming in, asking about loving affair, and disappear from the forum. this is what was striking me so much. then, yesterday evening i opened once again after i read in "debate" trojan raised something like this: we are on an I Ching forum, please, remain connected first of all to It, the open space comes "after".
to me, open space and exploring are very important as human connexion, so i kept on linking my soul here through these threads. after reading trojan i pushed a bit myself to open up at least more "sharing d" than open space: this was the result.

the most ironic thing has been that, after 30 minutes i posted this new thread, i had a big discussion with my he-friends which leaded us very far one from the other. thinking about this, i cannot resist laughing now.....

i agree that every subject is worth of being asked to Yi, i'm not making cathegories.
i just hope and pray those people who asks just for loving affairs, will not run out from here in direspectful attitude towards souls helping in consulting and the Yi same.
 

lucia

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i stopped time ago opening "shared reading" right for this reason, what i saw was that many times lot of people were coming in, asking about loving affair, and disappear from the forum. this is what was striking me so much

I truely believe that you can ask the Ching anything - that has been my experience because the Ching seems to tell me pretty quickly if I am wasting my energy in the wrong direction.

And these things change over time as your personal focus changes. Me, I have no religious or "spiritual" ideas about the Ching at all but it has helped me so much.

The only problem I have in shared readings is that too many new people just want slot machine answers and make no effort to contribute their own thoughts to their readings - but that is also down to us.......... we probably need to be more strong about encouraging that.

just a thought..............

L
 

neegula

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The only problem I have in shared readings is that too many new people just want slot machine answers
just a thought..............

L
thank you, dear, you have totally hit the spot.
and i add that i can see this attitude above all when someone is questioning about loving affaires.
so, lucia, thanks for having helpled me in clearing up what i meant :bows:

i repeat: i don't believe nor say it is bad asking the Yi about loving affairs.
 
M

meng

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just a thought...

When I was a young Catholic boy, I watched in fascination, how the priests moved Jesus around during the Mass. One minute he's there hanging dead or near death on a cross. Then he's put into this small tent of purple, then he reappears in a cup as wine, while magically also being the tasteless, sticky wafers, that only the priest was allowed to touch before feeding it to the one waiting on their knees to eat him. Yes, I understand the symbolism, but it just seemed strange.

Those who followed this guy around while he was alive and near dying, only very few wanted the knowledge of the kingdom of heaven. The rest wanted to feel better about things which seemed small to others but felt hugely important to them. Jesus spoke with them all, unlike the Pharisees.

I tend to look at the Yi in a similar manner.
 

fkegan

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HI Neegula,

The problem with most questions about love affairs is that those asking don't really want an honest answer. The sorry ones on the Shared Readings have no interest in a Yi Oracle telling them, "Hey, he just isn't that into you." Or even more, "if you truly care about having a relationship you would have to talk to him and be willing to listen to his reply, even if he says "I only really care about beer and watching the ball game, but if you are OK making snacks for halftime and spending the night without any commitment I won't kick you out of bed or eat crackers in the bed before you get in."

It is that those questions are really variants of: I am dreaming of Prince Charming and I have imagined this guy could be ideal if only he were all different from who he is today; will the magic power of the Oracle change him for me while I do my nails?

Frank
 

neegula

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HI Neegula,

The problem with most questions about love affairs is that those asking don't really want an honest answer.

It is that those questions are really variants of: I am dreaming of Prince Charming and I have imagined this guy could be ideal if only he were all different from who he is today; will the magic power of the Oracle change him for me while I do my nails?

Frank
:rofl: you are tremendous!

yes, you make me think that those who ask and run away could be those who won't listen at all...
it is true that sometimes it takes a lot of time to See and understand clearly what Yi was Saying, but...this is another thing...
 

fkegan

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:rofl: you are tremendous!

yes, you make me think that those who ask and run away could be those who won't listen at all...
it is true that sometimes it takes a lot of time to See and understand clearly what Yi was Saying, but...this is another thing...

Hi Neegula,

Thank you!

That is one of the early lessons of the Shared Readings Forum. Generally the question first proposed is only a tiny sliver of the real issue, the tip of the iceberg. Two responses generally arise from there. Either they get a fortune telling reading excusing them of thinking or actually working on their love affair, such as our FortuneTeller WF/Cuckoo(which I guess is a reference to the Swiss clock announcing the time, though other vernacular meanings of the term also exist).

OR

The measure of an insightful reading to these people is that they reply,"Yes, of course (or in the extreme--so how many detectives did you use to find out this) but what I really meant was about this new and very different question that I did not first post since I knew it was a bit too strange and personal..."

Frank
 

hilary

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Hm - WF has been known to recommend that people work on relationships and even that they talk to one another. I think pretty much everyone here has suggested real life conversation to a lovelorn querent from time to time.

I think Frank's hitting the nail on the head, though maybe with a little more force than is really necessary. Consulting the I Ching, it helps to know, deeply and clearly, what you are asking, and why. It's possible to miss this with any kind of question, but it does seem to happen most often with relationships.

('I'm asking because I want to know, and because I want to keep on imagining without any sure knowledge to interfere with that, and because I don't really want to go through the process of finding out the truth as that's probably going to hurt, and because I want to know what to do, and because I want to postpone having to do anything for as long as possible. And now can you just give me a simple answer to a simple question already?')
 

fkegan

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Divination reflects humanity, the issues are eternal

Hi Hilary,

Sometimes even the fortunetelling reader can't take what the client is saying.

'Anything worth doing is worth doing to EXCESS' my youthful folly response to my mother's "Anything worth doing is worth doing well"

The actual experience for my second alternative came from a jet set lady at a diet spa (our family sent my wife and daughter and allowed me to tag along in hopes of saving our lives). She was chatting over several days about what terrible problems she had with her family, too terrible and too involved to explain... so I asked her for two numbers 1-64.

I simply described the structure of those two hexagrams, but she said, "Of course that is the situation, but you could have just found that out sending private investigators to interview my whole family all throughout the U.S. and back in Greece. And the solution you propose I already know and will eventually do, but not yet, I am not ready, I have not the courage today."

The situation with divination is an eternal one. Statistically (I believe) most of the tortoise shell oracles were about "Will it rain tomorrow?/ Will the rain not come tomorrow?" The Yi as weather forecast. Some for hope the spring rains will start the growing season; some fearing heavy rain would interfere with battle plans.

Then with the Chou Yi it became possible to ask more exactly the relevant questions 'Will the princess marry me or do I need to invade to promote my proposal?' 'Will my general win or lose the battle tomorrow?" And "Will the growing season yield a harvest to feed my people?"

Frank
 
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For a long time I had some indignation about using the Yi for trivial questions, when it seems there's some really important things we should know. But later in life, I began to see less difference in what we ask. What we really want is an affirmation of our being. i.e. an answer to our question. So the question is secondary from our desire to be connected. If we believe we already are connected, there's no need to question, there's just floating on the boat of knowing.



.....whoa :rolleyes:

Asking DOES have a lot to do with simply being connected. Like, a lot of the times we find the first hexagram (the one that changes) to reflect our current state. And this is deeply satisfying because it says that the Yi and We are connected. Even tho that doesn't even tell us anything new or anything path to go on, it is still satisfying to just be connected to something that "knows".
 
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fkegan

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Connected yes, but requesting affirmation of the connection.

Hi Meng,

How could anyone possibly be assured of being really, really connected without the continuous affirmation in all ways and always of that connection? That is what love affairs or loving affairs are all about.;)

Frank
 

nicky_p

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I think that an intimate relationship and the yi have a strong connection as both have a contribution to the spiritual awakening. A truely rotten break up will provide a grandmother with so much wisdom to provide her grandchildren (who will not listen ;) ).

I have empathy for neegula as the originator of this thread. There are many times I scan the readings for something other than a 'love' reading and hope for a conversation I could actually get my teeth into. And yet I ask, about what? Because if I really could think of something I might bring my self to post (much like neegula, so thank you).

It's much like when the same arguments flare up time after time. It's like sometimes we're just trying to cling onto the hint of an idea that we lost in the first moment of realisation (or maybe it's just me that feels that way?).

Anyway, I just meant that I agree with neegula in that a lot of the readings are about a romantic relationship and yet at the same time I understood why that might be cos it's those relationships which sustain us. Also the questions that are more spiritual are the ones we don't necesserily want an answer to right now and are happy to mull over.

I'd be happy for a mutual mull if anyone's willing ;)
 

fkegan

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Hi Nicky_p,

Most of the Shared Reading relationships are just sad, there is no real connection and the Yi is being consulted for a connection. Like the book and movie He's Just Not That Into You.
Or in terms of the Comic strip Garfield:
http://www.gocomics.com/garfield/20...edium=gadget&utm_campaign=gadget_clickthrough

When there is an actual loving relationship with real issues to be mulled over it of course is a very different kettle of fish.

What is a mutual mull?

Frank
 

neegula

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What is a mutual mull?

it is mumblemumble, blablabla, what i love the most:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I think that an intimate relationship and the yi have a strong connection as both have a contribution to the spiritual awakening.

it's those relationships which sustain us. Also the questions that are more spiritual are the ones we don't necesserily want an answer to right now and are happy to mull over.

of course, nicky, i agree with this.
i'm saying (even if i think it could be useless and boring for readers to repeat it) that it's sad to me to see that many people are arriving to Yi for intimate relations questions; it's very ok if from there these souls keep on walking on the Yi path, "their" path. i think it's disrespectful when spiritual path is not connected: the Yi is not a slot machine nor a magazine horoscope. (sorry for repetition in my posts, just wanted to be clear).
yes, even for other kind of questions often "we" don't want to Hear...

It's much like when the same arguments flare up time after time. It's like sometimes we're just trying to cling onto the hint of an idea that we lost in the first moment of realisation (or maybe it's just me that feels that way?).
sorry, this i don't understand because of my sometimespoor English...:blush:
if you feel in doing, please repeat with other words.:bows:
 

lucia

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i'm saying (even if i think it could be useless and boring for readers to repeat it) that it's sad to me to see that many people are arriving to Yi for intimate relations questions; it's very ok if from there these souls keep on walking on the Yi path, "their" path. i think it's disrespectful when spiritual path is not connected: the Yi is not a slot machine nor a magazine horoscope.

whose "spiritual" path? Who gets to define what is "spiritual"? What is "spiritual"? I don't think it is like that at all. The ching was used historically for the day to day business of running the kingdom and the lives of the people in it so why not now?

Who said ching use is static? What can start out as one approach can change over time. I find the western use of the word "spiritual" is generally a problem that gets wrapped up in too many 20/21st century new age nonesense. I am not spiritual at all and I use the ching for 30 years.........
Is that "wrong"? Just a thought or two............
L
 

neegula

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whose "spiritual" path? Who gets to define what is "spiritual"? What is "spiritual"? I don't think it is like that at all. The ching was used historically for the day to day business of running the kingdom and the lives of the people in it so why not now?

Who said ching use is static? What can start out as one approach can change over time. I find the western use of the word "spiritual" is generally a problem that gets wrapped up in too many 20/21st century new age nonesense. I am not spiritual at all and I use the ching for 30 years.........
Is that "wrong"? Just a thought or two............
L

dear lucia, i always love your a thought or two:)

"spiritual" was referred to this
I think that an intimate relationship and the yi have a strong connection as both have a contribution to the spiritual awakening.
and probably i ran a bit in my last post.
for me "spiritual" means the opposite of "normopathic", it does not mean incense and altars in every room of the house. normopathy means being so normal to be sick of it; unfortunately i cannot find any clever link to doctors Dahlke and Dtethlefsen' work who coined this word.

i understand now that it's true that repetita iuvant so and so:rofl:
 
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meng

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Goodness, yes, what is spiritual? Or, what isn't spiritual? Depending how you look at it. But if spiritual can be used as a way of seeing, that may work: assuming we see the seeing the same. If not, we'd be defining two different things as spiritual. Perhaps if we see through the same filtered spirit, we might agree on terms, but even that doesn't assure that either would be right.

I view spiritual as devoid of any filtration or additives, since there's nothing to remove from spirit, only adding can pollute it.

I think what we do with Yi is add and remove layers of filters, letting us look through different colored lenses. If through that we can dispel of the tinted lens, then I think it can touch upon what is spiritual.
 

neegula

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Perhaps if we see through the same filtered spirit, we might agree on terms, but even that doesn't assure that either would be right.
this remind me of an italian comedian who says approx:
"listen to me, the Answer is inside of you:
and it is certainly wrong!":rofl:
 

fkegan

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Hi Neegula,

I lost my first response reply on this thread, so I assume it wasn't very good.

Google has, among many links for nomopathy: The fear of difference--and its dangerous consequences:
http://www.psychnews.us/normopathy.html

this remind me of an Italian comedian who says approx:
"listen to me, the Answer is inside of you:
and it is certainly wrong!"

That does say it all doesn't it?

Frank
 

nicky_p

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A mutual mull?....
it is mumblemumble, blablabla, what i love the most:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I couldn't have put it better myself. Thank you very much Neegula :)
It's much like when the same arguments flare up time after time. It's like sometimes we're just trying to cling onto the hint of an idea that we lost in the first moment of realisation (or maybe it's just me that feels that way?).

sorry, this i don't understand because of my sometimespoor English...:blush:
if you feel in doing, please repeat with other words.:bows:

I probably didn't explain myself too well - sorry :blush:

Ok, so I'll use a personal example. At new year I went to a friend's house and we got into an academic argument that became a bit heated. We spent so much effort clinging onto the argument long after it should have ended that we didn't realise until the next day (and sobered up :blush:) we were arguing the same point. In the middle of the argument we lost the reason for the argument and were just clinging onto the original idea that we disagreed. I see some of the relationship questions a little like that and I know I've done it myself - just trying to cling onto the original idea that there once was love but ignoring the part that you just don't get on ony more. :( For me it's like the buddhist idea of grasping that causes suffering.

What is "spiritual"?
Oh my gosh, "spiritual".....Apologies :bows: I guess it's one of those words that gets bandied about a bit :blush: For me personally it's something that touches somewhere inside ...and then I'm lost for the words i need to describe what I mean. I think that's why I need the yi's help so often :)
 
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meng

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There are many times I scan the readings for something other than a 'love' reading and hope for a conversation I could actually get my teeth into. And yet I ask, about what?

This is a funny and great question. When you get right down to it, there are perhaps four categories of conversation to discuss regarding the Yijing. One of them happens to be practical applications, and love happens to rank high on the list of what people regard as an important application. If love relations fall to the bottom of that list out of reverence for what is considered more important, what's more important than love relationships, within the category of useful applications of the Yijing? If you sight knowledge, please include which knowledge specifically. If you sight career or finances, please state how that in turn does not affect your relationships. What kinds of questions can we get our teeth into, more than into love relationships? Isn't spiritual discussion really a discussion on relationship with spirit, and doesn't it naturally follow that our relationship with spirit is directly tied to our relationship with others?
 
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meng

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I'll tell you what I think the real difficulty is regarding a large percentage of love questions, as well as other kinds of questions, presented in the Shared Reading section. I see it in two different but related ways.

#1 is that there is no real seeking of an actual resolution to the dilemma presented. There is only the problem, which dangles out of reach, above any and all explanations. This is a form of self indulgence which finds relief in tying others up in their personal and never ending dramas. A resolution or clear answer could put an end to that, but an end to that is not what they're seeking. And so the same threads from the same individuals go on endlessly about the same things. Say anything about it, and they'll suddenly turn on the 'poor me, I'm a victim again' faucet.

#2 is refusal to participate in using their own cognition, and feel as though only someone or something else can give them the literal details to solve their problem, with no or minimal willingness to change themselves in the process.

I think it should be noted that the primary object of applied changes within the Yijing, are designed to be applied to changing ourselves. And if questions were asked with that in mind, it would be more productive for all.
 

lucia

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I think it should be noted that the primary object of applied changes within the Yijing, are designed to be applied to changing ourselves. And if questions were asked with that in mind, it would be more productive for all.

yay! Have to completely agree but it also, as part of that, can give a pretty clear picture, a damn fine 'weather report', hints of the unknown, occasional sweetness, sharp admonishment and for me most irritating of all, 'consolation prize' hexes that seem to me to be a pat on the head and a "there there" (grr.......) [note to self: "why is it that whenever I achieve the way of heaven it appears to be full of puta potholes"?]

I think "Love" questions are fine too and love can be a great seat of learning for sure but yes I think meng has largely nailed it - it is interesting to try and interpret if the querent is prepared to engage with it themselves and then it becomes great material for the archive too.

But I really don't think we can have much in the way of preconceptions about spiritual approaches to the ching or rather if we do I'm stuffed because my approach to the ching is um er "very down to earth".......... and the ching appears to support that and even play with it - its just personal no? And I swear at the ching sometimes as in "why is it all so EFFING grim"? (after strings of shut up and put up hexes or hard labour hexes) ching replied with a wink and a 42 to which all I could say while laughing was: "dios mio clever clogs I literally asked for that"!! It sounds like my mum sometimes I think.

more thoughts (thanks neegula....;)) just wanted to say for me better than "normopathy" is to question what Foucault called "normalisation" - may alarm bells ring whenever things appear "normal" or "natural" is quite a good place to start maybe.

Lucia
 

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