loving affairs

[fkegan]

The bitterest fights are when both sides agree but can't see that...

Ok, so I'll use a personal example. At new year I went to a friend's house and we got into an academic argument that became a bit heated. We spent so much effort clinging onto the argument long after it should have ended that we didn't realise until the next day (and sobered up ) we were arguing the same point. In the middle of the argument we lost the reason for the argument and were just clinging onto the original idea that we disagreed. I see some of the relationship questions a little like that and I know I've done it myself - just trying to cling onto the original idea that there once was love but ignoring the part that you just don't get on ony more. For me it's like the buddhist idea of grasping that causes suffering.

Hi Nicky_p,

The example you cite is one of the most intriguing experiences we all are subject to in our discussions. A nice conversation turns into an argument which gets heated and bitter since each person KNOWS absolutely they are correct, their view is based upon their most cherished principles and anyone not recognizing and honoring their position could not possibly have ANY respect for them as a person or an academic or anything.

Similarly between good friends or lovers and especially when something intoxicating was involved and the discussion took off, reminding each party of all the bad experiences they have ever had with anyone of that gender going back to their parents and siblings.

I have observed such and been involved with it also. I connect it to the tale of the group of blind men each holding a different part of an elephant (one of my favorite illustrations). Each blind man knows with the absolute certainty of empirical experience that their description of their part of the elephant MUST be real. None of them can imagine that the solution to their discussion is to say, "Yes and from my point of view" rather than just "You are NOT agreeing with me! You must be denying ME and my experience, refusing to recognize my achievements, etc. etc."

I have also had the opportunity to illustrate the larger picture to both parties, and suddenly they go from bitter argument to delightful agreement (generally much easier if they are not impaired in their mental functions and given over to reflexes): "Yes, of course that is your expertize!" and "Yes, that fits into mine too, like this and this" and they are able to appreciate and support each other and find their interests and perspectives aligned and validated by each other.

Frank

 

[neegula]

For me it's like the buddhist idea of grasping that causes suffering.

#1 never ending dramas. A resolution or clear answer could put an end to that, but an end to that is not what they're seeking.

an old italian joke; two fiancés are sitting on the sofa:
"steve, i'm bored, nothing ever happens; let's argue a little bit"

Isn't spiritual discussion really a discussion on relationship with spirit, and doesn't it naturally follow that our relationship with spirit is directly tied to our relationship with others?

ehm...relationships are not just those in which we have sex in....
maybe most of the people love complaining first of all about loving relationships, yes.

i was pointing out the high "percentual" (may fkegan forgive me for pronouncing such a vulgar expression) of questioning about the topic, actually i don't what about the repetition of maya going on..

and the ching appears to support that and even play with it - its just personal no?

i agree, Yi is Always there.

 

[neegula]

normopathical and natural

may alarm bells ring whenever things appear "normal" or "natural" is quite a good place to start maybe.

well. i seperate very much normal from natural.
just to remain in topic (as i love thinking, asking, understanding about Love too),for instance, in my very mine opinion,
polyamorism is natural.
the closed quarrelling couple is normopathic.

eating fresh vegetables from the garden is different than normally buying things in the shop.

seeing the gods in every leaf and in every human is different from going to church every day.

i could go on a bit, but i would'nt know which other preposition throw in the next sentence

 

[neegula]

I have observed such and been involved with it also. I connect it to the tale of the group of blind men each holding a different part of an elephant (one of my favorite illustrations). Each blind man knows with the absolute certainty of empirical experience that their description of their part of the elephant MUST be real.

 

[meng]

seeing the gods in every leaf and in every human is different from going to church every day.

Depends what church you go to.


Posted by meng

Isn't spiritual discussion really a discussion on relationship with spirit, and doesn't it naturally follow that our relationship with spirit is directly tied to our relationship with others?

Posted by neegula

ehm...relationships are not just those in which we have sex in....

I never mentioned sex in that statement. Though I'll say, I view the Yijing as easily the most sexual book I've ever read.

 

[fkegan]

I never mentioned sex in that statement. Though I'll say, I view the Yijing as easily the most sexual book I've ever read.

Hi Meng,

Apparently your words are not as communicative as your views.

seeing the gods in every leaf and in every human is different from going to church every day.

Depends what church you go to.

Bruce your sentence makes no sense at all in common English!
Are you truly unaware that the word "church" in English implies a building or "indoors" which is the opposite of the Planet at large. There is the notion of Spaceship Earth but not "Church as big as all outdoors" except in the most dogmatic of believers in some one True Faith...

Cite an example of a Church one could go to that would make your statement sensible.

Frank

 

[meng]

You're just being argumentative for it's own sake, Kegan. As demonstrated by your attempts to bait Luis and Chris by your ingenues and insulting comments, it's obvious you've no genuine intent to discuss anything. There's several legitimate arguments I could present to you, but what's the point?

So, once again, I ask you to ignore my posts. It would also be a good idea if your deliberate and transparent attempts to provoke and agitate were conducted elsewhere.

 

[pantherpanther]

You're just being argumentative for it's own sake, Kegan. As demonstrated by your attempts to bait Luis and Chris by your ingenues and insulting comments, it's obvious you've no genuine intent to discuss anything. There's several legitimate arguments I could present to you, but what's the point?

So, once again, I ask you to ignore my posts. It would also be a good idea if your deliberate and transparent attempts to provoke and agitate were conducted elsewhere.

Holding up a mirror to another of their views can be one side of a discussion. That it may be provocative, too, does not necessarily mean that one is being argumentative for it's own sake. If you don't want to play, stay away.Complaining is not being in the game.

 

[meng]

Holding up a mirror to another of their views can be one side of a discussion. That it may be provocative, too, does not necessarily mean that one is being argumentative for it's own sake. If you don't want to play, stay away.Complaining is not being in the game.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?p=108720#post108720

 

[neegula]

ehi, what's on?! on a loving' affairs thread... i stay away 12 hours and you, men, start arguing?

i was coming here to say: i'll come back soon, but today and tomorrow i'm afraid i'll be away a little bit.

meng, i personally would have not complained if you had post links and answers about churches here: i would have been happy about that. form me it doesn't exist any off topic in a thread.

 

[meng]

ehi, what's on?! on a loving' affairs thread... i stay away 12 hours and you, men, start arguing?

See what happens when you leave for a few hours? It's all your fault!

My church comments weren't off topic, agreed, but I know they only would be used as further fodder for kegan's folly. This way he can carry on about it off this thread to his heart's content. And for that matter, so can I.

 

[nicky_p]

#1 is that there is no real seeking of an actual resolution to the dilemma presented. There is only the problem, which dangles out of reach, above any and all explanations. This is a form of self indulgence which finds relief in tying others up in their personal and never ending dramas. A resolution or clear answer could put an end to that, but an end to that is not what they're seeking. And so the same threads from the same individuals go on endlessly about the same things.

This is precisely what I was trying to get at when I was talking about clinging onto an argument and buddhist grasping - thanks Meng for putting it more eloquently

When you get right down to it, there are perhaps four categories of conversation to discuss regarding the Yijing.

Please can I clarify? Are you saying that:

One of them happens to be practical applications,.....

and then there are 3 more or that the other 3 are ...love, knowledge and career/finances?

What kinds of questions can we get our teeth into, more than into love relationships? Isn't spiritual discussion really a discussion on relationship with spirit, and doesn't it naturally follow that our relationship with spirit is directly tied to our relationship with others?

Personally the thing that makes me wary of getting involved in relationship questions are that they are so personal and impact so much of our lives. That's not to say I haven't or won't again pick up a thread with these questions but I at least like to feel at the onset of my involvement that I am prepared to give some kind of commitment to seeing the answer through and also not seeing the answer giving procedure as a kind of slot machine too. I know there have been discussions around here in the past about the danger (or at least thoughtlessness) of bombarding a hurting soul looking for a conversation with a scatter-gun of technical concrete answers. For my part there has to be a mutual give in these answers as well. For instance, to show I comprehend and agree with what you're saying about the interconnectedness of relationships and other areas of life I can tell you something about my own experiences: last year my career was suffering greatly and it nearly caused the breakdown of my relationship because I wasn't happy or secure in my ability to look after myself physically without sufficient income, and as my relationship was still in it's infancy it was tested.... a lot! Then I got a job. But my relationship had become so rocky it started affecting my work life and nearly caused me to lose the job that was giving me back my independence Catch 22. There was nothing for me to do except weather the storm...and throw coins....and talk to anyone who would listen That is quite often how I see the shared readings forum though: not a place people have come to learn about the yi but a place to have that itch scratched.

The example you cite is one of the most intriguing experiences we all are subject to in our discussions. A nice conversation turns into an argument which gets heated and bitter since each person KNOWS absolutely they are correct, their view is based upon their most cherished principles and anyone not recognizing and honoring their position could not possibly have ANY respect for them as a person or an academic or anything.

Hmmmm, I know what you mean in some ways. Luckily in this instance it had the opposite effect for me and my friend. He's actually a friend of my boyfriend's originally and this experience, and some traumas before new year, has brought us all closer together. Because of the trauma as well I know my emotions were running higher than usual. In the end I thanked him for his hospitality and told him that I did not wish to carry on this discussion and that we would speak later and i left. When we saw each other the next day we said our mutual apologies and hugged and made up. More recently he let me know that he likes our relationship a whole lot better - there's more respect. We became heated but we did not degrade into a personal slanging match. We trust each other. Someone once told me you can only really know someone once you've faught with them. Horrible at the time... but definitely spiritual

 

[meng]

Please can I clarify? Are you saying that: and then there are 3 more or that the other 3 are ...love, knowledge and career/finances?

I was referring to entirely different categories of discussion, such as translation, historical facts and evidence, schools of thought or approaches, i.e. Confucian, Taoist, nontraditional. They can all find applications within the topic of this thread, for example. There's really plenty to sink our teeth into, but it means that those who have the knowledge to increase can speak that knowledge, without facing harassment from those who are too inconsiderate to give the idea a chance to be discussed freely.

 

[elvis]

I think your question is very relevant, and it could be subject to a lot of debate. There are good cases for why Yi accommodates matters of relationships.

As a mythic form of language the EIC covers anything you like where such includes the symmetric dynamics of relationships.

 

[bamboo]

"..there is no real seeking of an actual resolution to the dilemma presented. There is only the problem, which dangles out of reach, above any and all explanations. "

how true.

I have the perfect solution to questions about romance. It is an ancient , tried and true method of divination. guaranteed accuracy and at least a 50% satisfaction rate. we could give ole man Yi a break

 

[neegula]

seeing the gods in every leaf and in every human is different from going to church every day.

Depends what church you go to.

sorry if i ran another time:
meng, when i talk about "the church" and you feel bitterness in my words, i'm normally speaking about people or instituion connected to the catholic church that i've had under my nose for 40 years here in italy.
so, i can say, there are thousands of catholic believers who go to church every week or many times a week and they are very ready to throw into ruin their brothers and sisters as soon as they come out of the building of the church, where god can see them. sorry i if i give for grant this passages; and sorry if my words about religions are so many times sharp and angry, i cannot really do in other manners for now:
i love "religion" very much; this is not a paradoxe.

hope i'll have time enough today and tomorrow to keep on following topics here and there in Clarity.

 

[neegula]

My church comments weren't off topic, agreed, but I know they only would be used as further fodder for kegan's folly.

don't worry, dear, i'm very well trained...

franK,

 

[neegula]

thank you so muuuuuch!

 

[meng]

meng, when i talk about "the church" and you feel bitterness in my words, i'm normally speaking about people or instituion connected to the catholic church that i've had under my nose for 40 years here in italy.
so, i can say, there are thousands of catholic believers who go to church every week or many times a week and they are very ready to throw into ruin their brothers and sisters as soon as they come out of the building of the church, where god can see them. sorry i if i give for grant this passages; and sorry if my words about religions are so many times sharp and angry, i cannot really do in other manners for now:

I could certainly understand anger and bitterness coming from bad experiences or knowledge of any religious organizations. Believe me, I could tell some first hand stories that are hard to believe regarding the corruption of various church organizations, and I'm not singling out Catholicism or fundamentalism, or the Christian faith in particular. I've found corruption, usury and brain-washing within every religious faction I've ever been affiliated with: whether Christian church, ashram, yogic guru retreat, various new age camps, and in the burgeoning self improvement business.

But, ones personal searching for truth or reality within a belief or religion, I respect - so long as it does no harm to others.

And even to present some defense for the more profit oriented religious organizations, they too serve many humanitarian causes, and help countless people in countless ways. They're far from perfect, but many, even most, do help a lot of people in need as well.

I personally can relate to your rebellious spirit toward the dark and harmful side of religion, but I try to take into consideration the bright sides as well. I guess I can say the same about loving affairs. (chuckle)

 

[fkegan]

Hmmmm, I know what you mean in some ways. Luckily in this instance it had the opposite effect for me and my friend. He's actually a friend of my boyfriend's originally and this experience, and some traumas before new year, has brought us all closer together. Because of the trauma as well I know my emotions were running higher than usual. In the end I thanked him for his hospitality and told him that I did not wish to carry on this discussion and that we would speak later and i left. When we saw each other the next day we said our mutual apologies and hugged and made up. More recently he let me know that he likes our relationship a whole lot better - there's more respect. We became heated but we did not degrade into a personal slanging match. We trust each other. Someone once told me you can only really know someone once you've fought with them. Horrible at the time... but definitely spiritual

Hi Nicky_p,

Things are always clearer with more background information. You did not have any deep history or passionate connection with this friend of your boyfriend until this kerfuffle gave you two an opportunity to engage each other and test your forensic styles; making this drunken episode the beginning of your real relationship on your own as people not just friends of friends.

Confucius notes that one of the required steps to prove someone is being drunk with them. Fighting is a form of intimate personal engagement. Both intoxication and conflict are important parts of human interaction and understanding. Those who can only be restrained and polite are condemned to live behind their masks.

Frank

 

[Trojina]

I'll tell you what I think the real difficulty is regarding a large percentage of love questions, as well as other kinds of questions, presented in the Shared Reading section. I see it in two different but related ways.

#1 is that there is no real seeking of an actual resolution to the dilemma presented. There is only the problem, which dangles out of reach, above any and all explanations. This is a form of self indulgence which finds relief in tying others up in their personal and never ending dramas. A resolution or clear answer could put an end to that, but an end to that is not what they're seeking. And so the same threads from the same individuals go on endlessly about the same things. Say anything about it, and they'll suddenly turn on the 'poor me, I'm a victim again' faucet.

.

So what would you say they are seeking in this behaviour ? What is their payoff ? I've seen what you describe many times in life as well as here. Some times its taken me a while to catch on..if its with a friend for example, but finally I've understood the last thing the person wants is any final solution to the problem. Infact their main interest is in keeping that problem..or another one just like it, always alive and just out of reach of resolution whilst enlisting others in the task of batting it down...just like a kitten with a piece of string...except it never will be reached, the whole point of the game is that it continues

I think Eric Berne in 'Games people Play'...transactional analysis stuff calls this game 'why don't you...'yes but..'. One person makes a suggestion, the other says why it won't work ad infinitum...what i can't work out is where the actual satisfaction lies in the one who dangles the problem ? The ones who initially try to help may get the payoff of feeling useful/needed, but whats the payoff for the problem dangler ?

It does look a self indulgent behaviour yet I can't quite pinpoint how it relieves the person. is it just more and more attention ? Is that the pay off ?

Does anyone have any ideas..just curious..


I've wondered if this is something we all do sometimes...this problem dangling thing, but i don't think so because its surely feels very boring to keep talking of a problem noone can help you solve.?

 

[neegula]

But, ones personal searching for truth or reality within a belief or religion, I respect - so long as it does no harm to others.

And even to present some defense for the more profit oriented religious organizations, they too serve many humanitarian causes, and help countless people in countless ways. They're far from perfect, but many, even most, do help a lot of people in need as well.

how many people do you know that are REALLY searching through institutions?
i'm talking about this 40.000.000 people in the mass.
i'm not talking about INTELLECTUAL reaearch, not studying. this, even an atheist can do, still having a clear sincere research through life.

they go helping people in need where everybody can see them. imo.
for instance orphanage institutions? in US new born babies are given in adoption since they are inside their mummy belly; in italy the church organized centres where to host these poor abandoned kids till they are 6. taking millions euros from the governement, growing up kids like in orphanage 30 years ago. no new ingenious sad-saving adoptions in italy.

how many madre di calcutta do we know?
what's BEHIND these very few good-faith souls?
the devil.
we could stick this part of our thread in "smoke in vatican" i'm joking, it's ok!

wow, i said twice here that in these days i hadn't time to read and post

 

[neegula]

I think Eric Berne in 'Games people Play'...transactional analysis stuff calls this game 'why don't you...'yes but..'.

i lent this book years ago, of course it hasn't never come home

i always mistrust "why don't you...?"

It does look a self indulgent behaviour yet I can't quite pinpoint how it relieves the person. is it just more and more attention ? Is that the pay off ?

Does anyone have any ideas..just curious..


I've wondered if this is something we all do sometimes...this problem dangling thing, but i don't think so because its surely feels very boring to keep talking of a problem noone can help you solve.?

the important is "never be happy", many people says in italy.
insecurity leads to this.

yes, i try doing this any time i'm sick (once every two years).
keeping talking about the same problem doesn't ask to be Present at Evernew instant.

 

[nicky_p]

Things are always clearer with more background information. You did not have any deep history or passionate connection with this friend of your boyfriend until this kerfuffle gave you two an opportunity to engage each other and test your forensic styles; making this drunken episode the beginning of your real relationship on your own as people not just friends of friends.

Didn't think of it that way initially, but yes

So what would you say they are seeking in this behaviour ? What is their payoff ? I've seen what you describe many times in life as well as here. ..............

It does look a self indulgent behaviour yet I can't quite pinpoint how it relieves the person. is it just more and more attention ? Is that the pay off ?

Does anyone have any ideas..just curious..


I've wondered if this is something we all do sometimes...this problem dangling thing, but i don't think so because its surely feels very boring to keep talking of a problem noone can help you solve.? .

Hi trojan,

I don't know that it's done on purpose for the majority of times. I know I've done it myself and in retrospect (hindsight is always 20:20 vision huh? ) I think it's a form of denial. If you can keep picking over the bones of the relationship you don't have to let it go and grieve just yet. Bringing other people into the equation makes this place just a tiny bit less lonely. Although losing your friends because you've bored them to death with your moping make you a whole lot more lonely!

Just a thought...

 

[meng]

my theory

So what would you say they are seeking in this behaviour ? What is their payoff ?

It does look a self indulgent behaviour yet I can't quite pinpoint how it relieves the person. is it just more and more attention ? Is that the pay off ?

I've wondered if this is something we all do sometimes...this problem dangling thing, but i don't think so because its surely feels very boring to keep talking of a problem noone can help you solve.?

When we are very young, even infants, when do many of us receive the most parental attention, sympathy and affection? Isn't it when we were sick, in pain, troubled, crying?

And for those who instead of receiving affection, received harsh reactions ("stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about!"), at least it feels better than being ignored. Even punishment is a reward, in that sense.

Doesn't it seem natural that a large percentage would continue acting out these same methods into adulthood, even into old age?

By contrast, what primary character developments do the Yi seem to dwell on most? Self reliance, inner strength, getting it together and keeping it together mentally and emotionally, honesty and sincerity with self and others, and the ability to heal oneself from old destructive patterns?

Now, enter a place where a group of people offer personal attention, advice, and focus on this type of person's problems and pains. So long as the person can keep their life and situation in a constant or fluctuating state of chaos, confusion and pain, and so long as there are well meaning people running to their aid, as we all have seen and done, it can go on and on like this.

Yes, I agree, that we probably all have a bit of this going on in our roots somewhere. A lot of h18 involved there, me thinks. But at least those who genuinely want to evolve out of those old habits have a wonderful teacher to guide us. It sure won't indulge those earlier addictions for long, though. And that's precisely what makes giving candid interpretations so touchy: it's so easily rejected in favor of a pat on the back, a kiss on the cheek, a "there, there, it will be okay", though sometimes that is the true answer.

I don't see any easy fix to the problem, but I think at least being aware of it may be helpful.

 

[fkegan]

So what would you say they are seeking in this behaviour ? What is their payoff ? I've seen what you describe many times in life as well as here. Some times its taken me a while to catch on..if its with a friend for example, but finally I've understood the last thing the person wants is any final solution to the problem. Infact their main interest is in keeping that problem..or another one just like it, always alive and just out of reach of resolution whilst enlisting others in the task of batting it down...just like a kitten with a piece of string...except it never will be reached, the whole point of the game is that it continues

I think Eric Berne in 'Games people Play'...transactional analysis stuff calls this game 'why don't you...'yes but..'. One person makes a suggestion, the other says why it won't work ad infinitum...what i can't work out is where the actual satisfaction lies in the one who dangles the problem ? The ones who initially try to help may get the payoff of feeling useful/needed, but whats the payoff for the problem dangler ?

It does look a self indulgent behaviour yet I can't quite pinpoint how it relieves the person. is it just more and more attention ? Is that the pay off ?

Does anyone have any ideas..just curious..


I've wondered if this is something we all do sometimes...this problem dangling thing, but i don't think so because its surely feels very boring to keep talking of a problem no one can help you solve.?

Hi Trojan,

Yes, you are citing Berne's work. His fundamental premise was that people live on strokes, that is transactions with other people (thus transactional analysis), and it does not matter if they are positive or negative strokes. Thus the person playing the game gets to receive the positive input and thus the strokes from the other person; giving back only negative strokes in terms of the "Yes, but" slap. This also gives a power advantage as the one dangling the problem is in control, being in a position to make their response totally discounting or somewhat positive--but always less than "That solves my problem" since that would end the game and the strokes it gathers.

Frank

 

[Trojina]

Hmm interesting thanks for your thoughts all. I'd forgotten it was the 'strokes' that mattered Frank..of course, it all centres on the currency of 'strokes' which is what Meng was saying also..strokes being attention and regard..ie in everyday life someone simply saying 'hi how are you" = one stroke

Some people seem 'stroke' greedy then..whilst others manage on very few....everyone likes em though and i think sympathy strokes can be the most addictive of all. It all puts me in mind of 41.1 and its dynamic. To give to time to someone who is suffering is good but sometimes it can actually be detrimental to their own development of independence.

Its very hard to figure, especially if its with a friend, how to know where to draw the line..this is where Yi comes in so useful...aah this is reminding me how often i have consulted about this kind of thing and i recall getting 41.2, more than once especially for my involvement with a friend with depression where whatever i gave was not enough (so receiving 41.2 was a great relief). When more giving was appropriate i seem to recall 14.5 coming up...14.4 or 14.5 anyway, more than once for similar situations

:bows:

 

[Trojina]

Of course Yi is helpful too if you are the problem dangler...earnestly beseeching others and Yi for help....when you just want strokes and aren't really questing for more than that 61.6 often comes up i find

 

[meng]

the problem dangler

Did you really just say that?

I think Charly's influence is rubbing off on me, cuz I interpret that entire post in a way too sexual way.

 

[Trojina]

stroke a dangler and they shouldn't dangle for long eh