Memorizing the I Ching 25. Wu Wang / Innocence ( The Unexpected)

[Trojina]

BTW seems to me when I get 25 unchanging the Yi is often saying "I dunno its up to you" I've sensed this strongly on more than one occasion. I feel its saying 'follow your own nature - be true to your own nature - I can't tell you this'. And in retrospect I have seen when I kept asking and asking about what I should do, I missed the one thing the Yi was trying to say which was to do as I wanted according to inclinations coming from my true nature - sincere aims.

I reckon we're always pretty keen even if subconsciously to hand over authority for what we do - I think 25 blows that apart - there are no rules here other than being truly who you are. If behaving 'good' cos you're worried about karma betrays your real nature then you go against your own nature. If you behave 'good' cos you think there is a 'mummy' or 'daddy' figure in the sky who will punish you if you rule break again you betray your own nature, and IMO remain immature.

I reckon freedom is the hardest thing for people to have because they can't trust their true nature, they keep looking to an outside authority. 25 maybe also about that freedom to be self.

 

[getojack]

'You're get hit cos your're dumb' has to be the logical opposite of 'your're dumb so you get hit'.

What LiSe actually said was...

(Yes...) "Dumb - so you get hit."

But "You get hit - so you're dumb" is a very crooked reasoning and a dangerous one.

LiSe is correct that these statements are not the same. Think of the sentences, "I'm hungry, so I'll eat some breakfast." vs. "I'll eat some breakfast, so I'm hungry." Not the same.

 

[Trojina]

I can't see that. Though the statements aren't exactly the same I reckon one strongly implies the other - much as eating breakfast strongly implies hunger to me - its the only reason I eat breakfast anyway

'You're dumb so you get hit' to me goes against some of 25s message which is you can get hit whether you're dumb or not. - thats life - and being human is having to deal with that. Its not a palatable message, it means we're not always in control - but thats part of being human IMO, and thats 25. Flip side is equally to getting 'hit', you can also get rewards and pleasures through no saintly doings of your own, like a lottery win.

Thats not the same message as if you are not authentic and sincere you make trouble for yourself - that I have no problem with. Its all this stuff about avoiding lightening if you are a good boy or girl that troubles me but then surely no one did actually mean that ? Or maybe they did ? I don't know, if they did then I must leave them to it .

Randomness clearly really disturbs people, but deny it and i think you may as well wrap 25 up in a bag and tie a knot and stifle it and call it something else altogether - something like 'toeing the line' er but thats 10 isn't it ?

Just because we want everything to be fair in a cause/effect way doesn't always make it so. Sometimes just sometimes it isn't.

 

[frank_r]

A few weeks I had a bit of a disagreement with somebody else, and the only thing what happened was repeating points. I wanted to break this circle and tried to give a hug as a gesture. I followed my instincts. Then he got really mad, to the point that I went away because I thought now he will even attack me.

For me the hug was done in an innocent mood, like 25. Heaven as inspiration on top (metal- feelings without a real goal)and thunder the step towards the other ( wood, the start of the proces) Everything together a very yang proces, the father and the son working together.

This proces isn't over yet because the guy who I'm talking about want's to e-mail with me after what happened. My first reaction was to take some distance, but now I'm thinking to talk about it again. The main reason is that his reaction scared me, and I want to know what this fear is.

This proces what was started with my step towards him is still going on, it's like the nucleur trigrams wind (wood as long lasting proces which will grow a long time) and Mountain(earth), my personal perspective what it is bringing me.

So something what is suddenly can have a longlasting personal effect.

Like the Tsunami is a moment of nature with a very longlasting effect. The thunder is the begining and the mountain is the end of the cycle. The personal perspective after a full circle.

But where the fear comes from in this hexagram I don't know.

 

[getojack]

I can't see that. Though the statements aren't exactly the same I reckon one strongly implies the other - much as eating breakfast strongly implies hunger to me - its the only reason I eat breakfast anyway

OK, lemme try again then...

You're hungry, so you eat breakfast... yes. You eat breakfast cuz you're hungry... yes. You ate breakfast, so you're hungry... no. You're hungry cuz you ate breakfast...no.

You're dumb, so you get hit...yes. You get hit cuz you're dumb...yes. You got hit, so you're dumb...no. You're dumb, cuz you got hit...no.

Personally, I see it as "You ain't dumb, you just got hit."

 

[Trojina]

Eh ? Are you trying to scramble my brain ? Nah my logic still holds - for me.

Ah yes, just saw your last edited sentence, you see it as 'you ain't dumb you just got hit' yes well then the hit was random - it wasn't a result of you being stupid, inexperienced or anything else - now if you were being false/fake,pretending to be stupid or inexperienced then its a different matter and you fully deserve that lightening bolt.(emoticons gone, wink indicated)

Re this logic thing people do think like that. I recently saw a wife swap programme where the wife goes to live with another husband. This time the wife was in a wheelchair. When asked about it by her new family she explained she had had a fall when she was drunk aged 17. Her new husband said he had no sympathy for her as it was her own fault. She replied she rather thought she was just unlucky since most 17 year olds get drunk and do silly things at some point. BTW she was very capable and had not a trace of self pity - yet this guy judged her somehow guilty because she had the misfortune. She asked him "did you not ever get drunk and act silly when you were 17" and he puffed out his chest proudly and said ' Ah but I'm not in a wheel chair !' His attitude quite sickened me. Not to say anyone here thinks that way at all.

 

[Trojina]

You're hungry, so you eat breakfast... yes. You eat breakfast cuz you're hungry... yes. You ate breakfast, so you're hungry... no. You're hungry cuz you ate breakfast...no.

You're dumb, so you get hit...yes. You get hit cuz you're dumb...yes. You got hit, so you're dumb...no. You're dumb, cuz you got hit...no.

Personally, I see it as "You ain't dumb, you just got hit."

Okay I'm still working on this. Now I'm going out. If I get run over by a bus it will be because I'm preoccupied with all this

 

[Tohpol]

Okay I'm still working on this. Now I'm going out. If I get run over by a bus it will be because I'm preoccupied with all this

This is a great thread. And 24 is a very powerful hex to my mind.

It 'ain't an easy one to deal with either as it requires some serious soul searching to find out exactly what it is you are returning to and why. Line 3 seems to be an encapsulation of that turning point. I had this hex quite a few times recently when I was slipping back into my bad old thought patterns.

Our true natures. Hmm. Nature is a wonderful example of how to BE. But in a very unsentimental sense, if we follow Nature's "laws" and her symbolic and literal teachings then we can find a lot of wisdom to apply in our own lives. The spirit of Nature and the "intelligence" of Nature can be alive and well in our own elemental selves. We have a direct connection to the sublime material beauty she can show us. Nature is rich in sensual delights. But it is also rich in natural darkness where predator eats prey and if we don't learn the laws of the jungle in our human lives then we too become lunch!

In that sense, Nature can be viewed as showing us how to learn the laws of the jungle in order to apply them to the complexities of human natures. "As above so below." After all, some members of the human family will happily manipulate and "feed on your soul" if we do not learn to SEE how such predators work. They can do it because we refuse to return to our own natures and paths that are operating in accordance with deep inner connections to natural "laws."

I think Nature is ruthless and cruel just as it is beautiful and utterly fair. Humans however, become corrupted by lying to themselves or believing the whole scale epidemic of lies in our society i.e. social conditioning. A fantasy world where nothing is natural at all but all is copies of copies. Nothing authentic. Nature is wholly authentic even if at times brutal. Maybe to return to our true natures and paths is the archetypal goal of all of us interested in growing. It's like Perseus battling the Gorgon.

Line 3 seems to reflect that persistent wish to refuse truth being predicated on learned behaviour that is detrimental and against our own natures and therefore this effects others who come into contact with us.

topal

 

[rosada]

I heard a talk by a fellow who explained the world in terms of "forces". He claimed that material things had a "material force" and that this material force is very strong in the world today, especially in cities. He gave as an example of how the material force operates as when a person looks at something and finds themselves wanting it. You may have no need for it, no interest in it even, yet, when you see it on the shelf or in the catalog you find yourself longing for it, then, if you walk away, you completely forget it. Next up is the "vegetable force." I can't remember how he discribed this one exactly, something to do with the mind and entertaining thoughts that really we may have no need to think about. Then the "animal force" which is about the needs of our physical body and our ability to feel love and passion for our friends and family. Finally comes the "human force" which is able to control all of these lower forces, which are necessary for man but which ought to be his tools and not control him. Anyway, the key idea was that man in the time of Adam was originally "innocent" but through contact with the physical world these lower forces gradually have taken over man's conciousness and so we are no longer able to spontaneously feel our own true nature. The speaker recommended an exercise where people would gather together in darkened rooms twice a week and allow themselves to feel their inner vibration and move or sway as it guides them, thus strengthening the original human life force.

24. Return seemed almost silent. 25. Innocence feels down right chatty!

 

[rosada]

THE JUDGEMENT
INNOCENCE. Supreme success.
Perseverance furthers.
If someone is not as he should be,
He has misfortune,
And it does not further him
To undertake anything.

Man has received from heaven a nature innately good, to guide him in all his movements. By divotion to this divine spirit within himself, he attains an unsullied innocence that leads him to do right with instinctive sureness and without any ulterior thought of reward and personal advantage. This instinctive certinty brings about supreme success and "furthers through perseverance." However, not everything instinctive is nature in this higher sence of the word, but only that which is right and in accord with the will of heaven. Without this quality of rightness, an unreflecting, instinctive way of acting brings only misfortune, Confucius says about this: "He who departs from innocence, what does he come to? Heaven's will and blessing do not go with his deeds."

INNOCENCE. The firm comes from without and becomes the ruler within. Movement and strength. the firm is in the middle and finds correspondence."Great success through correctness" : this is the will of heaven.
"If someone is not as he should be, he has misfortune, and it does not further him to undertake anything." When innocence is gone, where can one go? When the will of heaven does not protect one, can one do anything?"
The firm element coming from without is the lowest line, a yang line. It comes from heaven (Ch'ien). The Receptive, in approaching the Creative for the first time, receives the line of Ch'ien and gives birth to Chen, the eldest son. Applied to man, this means that he receives the primal divine spirit as his guide and master.
The attribute of the lower trigram, Chen, is movement, that of the upper, Chien, is strength. The firm line in a central position that finds correspondence is the upper ruler of the hexagram, the nine in the fifth place, and the six in the second place corresponds with it. This all leads to success, because it shows man in the proper relationship to the divine, without ulterior designs and in primal innocence. Thus man is in harmony with the heavenly fate, the will of heaven, just as the lower trigram harmonizes with the upper.
But where the natural state is not this state of innocence, where desires and ideas are astir, misfortune follows of inner necessity. This hexagram differs from Pi, STANDSTILL, only in having a firm line at the beginning. If it should lose it's firmness, the whole situation would change.
In this hexagram there appear ideas that correspond with the mystical interpretations of the legends of Paradise and the fall of man.
-Wilhelm

 

[Trojina]

Dear Topal, interesting thoughts but... how can I break this to you .... we are now on hex 25 in this thread Still relevant thoughts to ponder nonetheless :bows:

 

[Tohpol]

Dear Topal, interesting thoughts but... how can I break this to you .... we are now on hex 25 in this thread Still relevant thoughts to ponder nonetheless :bows:

Oh!

I think it's because I was reading through 24 just previously and it kinda blended into the next thread...And why not eh? The I Ching's hexagrams blend into each other right? Ahem.

Thanks for breaking it to me gently Trojan. I'll just go back to my home for the bewildered.

topal

 

[rosada]

An Innocent mistake.

 

[Trojina]

Exactly, very apt.

 

[rosada]

Interesting to me that there is a certain cheerfulness to our stating our differing viewpoints this thread. Like Bruce saying he feels he's not always clear but feels very centered about 25. Seems to demonstrate that this hexagram does put one in touch with their own innate correctness, and how when you are feeling comfortable with your own connection to Source it doesn't stress one at all to chat with others and hear their wildly conflicting views.

 

[Trojina]

Yes there does feel to be a certain lightness about 25.- if it had to be a colour for me it would be yellow - dunno why.

 

[getojack]

Yes there does feel to be a certain lightness about 25.- if it had to be a colour for me it would be yellow - dunno why.

I'm not a big fan of Coldplay's songs, but I guess "Yellow" can go on the Yi Jing soundtrack too...

I swam across,
I jumped across for you,
Oh what a thing to do,
Cos you were all yellow

I drew a line,
I drew a line for you,
Oh what a thing to do,
And it was all yellow

 

[Trojina]

Oh yeah I always wondered what those lyrics were Funny I bought that song up myself here sometime - for some reason. D'you reckon its about jaundice ?

 

[bruce_g]

I’d like to say just how it feels
to be singin’ here for you.
It’s like the mornin’ after the rain,
sweet air of mornin’ dew.

It’s not that singin’s my occupation,
it’s just a thing that I do.
It’s like the mornin’ after the rain,
sweet air of mornin’ dew.

I’d like to sing to you under the trees
about a lover that I knew.
She was perfection after the rain,
sweet air of mornin’ dew.

It’s not that lovin’s my recreation,
it’s just a thing that I do.
It’s like the mornin’ after the rain,
sweet air of mornin’ dew.

 

[RindaR]

Did you write that? beautiful.

Rinda

 

[bruce_g]

Thank you, Rinda. Yes, long ago.

 

[getojack]

On the Unexpected

Writing without pretense and feeling without entanglement. The innocent play without a care in the world, and whatever happens was meant to be. Nothing goes against the grain. How could it, since everything serves a purpose?

A farmer loses a horse... bad luck. The horse brings back 3 more... good luck. The son gets thrown from the horse, breaks his leg... bad luck. So the army doesn't draft him... good luck.

A thief breaks into your home and steals what little you have. But he forgets to take the moon outside your window. And you write a poem about it, spinning gold from straw.

You get kicked out of your job and your home, and once you're out, you realize you've really been freed from jail. Wu Wang, you're free to go where the spirit moves you, vaja con dios.

 

[rosada]

Beautiful poetry, Bruce, and I love how you tell the story, getojack, "...he forgets to take the moon outside your window."

 

[Trojina]

Yeah nice

 

[bruce_g]

Thanks. It's just a little tune, written when I wasn't busy writing songs to save the world.

To respond to Rosada's earlier comment about thunder inspiring creativity, and to my comment about spontaneity - the 'save the world' songs were not at all 25. More like 44: wind under heaven, rather than thunder under heaven.

 

[getojack]

Beautiful poetry, Bruce, and I love how you tell the story, getojack, "...he forgets to take the moon outside your window."

It's from a zen poem by Ryokan:

The thief
Left it behind -
The moon at the window.

 

[rosada]

THE IMAGE
Under heaven thunder rolls;
All things attain the natural state of innocence.
Thus the kings of old,
Rich in virtue, and in harmony with the time,
Fostered and nourished all beings.

In springtime when thunder, life energy, begins to move again under the heavens, everything sprouts and grows, and all beings receive from the creative activity of nature the childlike innocence of their original state. So it is with the good rulers of mankind: drawing on the spiritual wealth at their command, the take care of all forms of life and all forms of culture and do everything to further them, and at the proper time.

"Under heaven thunder rolls: all things attain the natural state of innocence." This image is explained bt the saying in the Discussion of the Trigrams: "God comes forth in the sign of the Arousing." This is the beginning of life. Here we have the Creative above in association with movement. The upper nuclear trigram is wood, the lower is mountain.
"Rich in virtue" refers to the strength of the Creative. "The time" derives from the trigram Chen (east and spring) - the trigram in which life comes forth. Fostering and nourishing are indicated by the nuclear trigram Ken, mountain. The fact that this influence extends to everything is symbolized by the nuclear trigram Sun, meaning wind and universal penetration.

 

[lightofreason]

Image IC+

"[With enlightenment comes singlemindedness]. Under heaven, moving thunder. People associated with [Non-Involvement]. In primal times one nurtured the many beings through vigourous correspondence to the seasons.[strong regulating, or 'spoon feeding', encourages the development of a lack of participation]"

 

[rosada]

To everything there is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven.

 

[rosada]

THE LINES

0 Nine in the beginning means:
Innocent behavior brings good fortune.

The original impulses of the heart are always good, so that we may follow them confidently, assured of good fortune and achievement of our aims.

Innocent behavior attains its will.

Innocence is symbolized by the light character of the line, which enters as ruler below the two dark lines. Coming from heaven, it bears within itself the warrent of success. It attains its goal with intuitive certainty.
--Wilhelm