Memorizing the I Ching. 29. K'an / The Abysmal (Water)

[lightofreason]

Although 29 is titled The Abysmal and is supposedly about being in a very difficult situation, It seems to me it's really about how to cope in what appears to be a difficult situation, and that by acting appropriately we find that the situation is not so difficult at all. Just as 6. Conflict explained how to avoid conflict ("Carefully consider the beginning."), 29. The Abysmal shows how surrounding dangers need have no influence if you "walk in lasting virtue and carry on the business of teaching."

No. You have been poisoned by Wilhelm and the 'traditionalist' perspective. The generic focus is on a boundary that acts to protect, by keeping something in or out. Your use Wilhelm names is confusing since he has missed the full spectrum of the IC, focusing only on 10th century BC perspectives as if gospel.

The generic focus on a contracting boundary brings out a sense of protection and so of containment/control (where control is containment doubled). There is NO 'value' at this point, it is all a matter of fact - THEN comes refinement by linking the issues to local context and so the negative or positive forms of expression. Thus 06 not about conflict but about negotion/mediation across a boundary that can become intensified to be a focus on compromise that can become 'heated' and so the warning on not giving an inch but nor taking any.

When we map in emotion so the issues are on rejection - either being rejected or rejecting (and so negative or positive etc)

The opposite to contractive bounding is expansive - we move the boundary outwards - this is covered in the hexagram of fire and the focus on issues of guidance/direction-asserting (an ideology etc, like-mindedness where there is none (36) and there is some (13))

When we add in emotion so fire focuses on acceptance, on issues of being 'one of the gang' or not.

With emotion comes biases but prior to them are 'objective' but 'vague' forms we all share as neuron-dependent life forms.

Chris.

 

[rosada]

0Nine in the fifth place means:
The abyss is not filled to overflowing.
It is filled only to the rim.
No blame.

 

[rosada]

One of the nice things about calling this thread "Memorizing the I Ching" rather than "Learning It" is that we can all share our ideas without worrying about being Chinese scholars. I rattle on about what I'm getting from these verses and somebody else can share their possibly totally different perspective and hopefully whether we agree or not, the exchange will help us remember the lines, even if we don't exactly agree on what they mean.

 

[getojack]

Nine in the fifth

九五 坎不盈。祗既平。旡咎。

jiu3 wu3 kan3 bu4 ying2 zhi1 ji4 ping2 wu2 jiu4

 

[rosada]

Wilhelm on nine in the fifth:

DANGER COMES BECAUSE ONE IS TOO AMBITIOUS. In order to flow out of a revine, water does not rise higher than the lowest point of the rim. So likewise a man when in danger has only to proceed along the line of least resistance; thus he reaches the goal. Great labors cannot be accomplished in such times; it is enough to get out of danger.

 

[rosada]

Charly,
Thank you for commenting on my mother. She truly is a great soul. I woke up this morning realizing she is the answer to the question I posted yesterday, What is the I Ching refering to when the image of 29 says, "The superior man walks in lasting virtue and carries on the business of teaching"? She doesn't hear or see well and is often confused - even fearful - but with her dear kind spirit she just keeps going on her path, thus serving as an inspiration to us all.

 

[getojack]

Laozi might call this the pathless path.
All manner of things fulfil the dao without trying.

Fulfil, don't overfill. That's the true nature of water. When one stream meets another, they merge and flow together. And where two waters meet, there is a connection and a natural flow.

 

[rosada]

I think Wilhelm's comment on 29.5 is a core understanding worthy of focusing on:

"Danger comes because one is too ambitious."

I think when I've read this in the past I've assumed the IC was refering to just the present situation. Now I realize IC is telling us in ALL situations the element of Danger has been able to enter because one has been too ambitious. This is a wonderful insight for correcting mistakes and analysizing What Went Wrong? The answer will always be, "I tried to do too much."

 

[charly]

Your brick-toon made me remember the spoon mentioned in the Fu Yue-de translation...
I think that 29.4 consist of more than one reading...
Maybe there is an additionel third reading, something related to the window?

Hi, Lienshan:

1) I'm sure there is a spoon hidden somewhere in the hexagram, I go to search it.

2) I think like you, but not only two or three, many stories.

3) I think that also there is a window story. Only imagine ...

... a window, not at China, but at Sevilla (South Spain), 18__. There courtship at the window is allowed for girls, they may listen serenades, talk with pretendings / courtings, joke with more lucky ones, disdain the less attractive ones.

Couples can easily interchange letters and small gifts. They can touch his hands. Nothing hard, but very important to the relation. Nothing like behind doors. Windows are not doors.

Now, think in a chinese house (urban and high class, of course), getting at the girls window can mean to jump walls, to cross gardens, to break tree branches, to walk over plants. Boys in love become like delinquents, foxes or spys.

Chinese character used for window can also mean opening for air and light, as wilhelm says, also lattice or bars. Passing through the window not being air or light is a transgression. But little gifts or offerings don't constitute formal engagement / commitment, it had the important nature of intimate / private promises.

Thus, although transgressive on principle, at the end were not bad addresed.

VALUED GIFTS, MODEST MEANS
PASSED EASILY THROUGH THE WINDOW
AT THE END NO WRONG​

Don't you agree?

Yours,


Charly

 

[charly]

... "Danger comes because one is too ambitious."
... "I tried to do too much."

Rosada:

Ambition is dangerous, of course, but rivers can overflow (1), rivers don't ever flow like peaceful streams.

I think that Wilhelm is trying to say us that some too ambitious goals can be impossible by its own nature. Say, to fill an Endless Pit (=abyss?). Too ambitious men may think they can, but it isn't so.

If you can fill the pit up to the top, be content, don't try to overfill it, you cannot, you will exhaust yourself. It's no wrong that you don't try to exceed yourself in success.

Line 5 is generally the climax line, the Minister, the higher secular rank, the line after it is not the King but the Wise. I thik the advice is «if you have made enough, enjoy what you have got don't ask for more»

Your,


Charly

-------------------------
(1) As by Richard Sears site ChineseEtymology, character 盈(here «overflow») means «to fill / to become full», its components are «success» 夃 («success in getting pregnant») over a container 皿. If a woman gets pregnant she cannot get still more pregnant that yet she is???

 

[charly]

... Fulfil, don't overfill. That's the true nature of water.
... where two waters meet, there is a connection and a natural flow.

Hi, Getojack:

I don't agree with some statement:

1) Water by its nature ever seeks the lower levels, but of course it can overfill if the recipient if not large enough.

2) when waters meet can have natural flow (not neccessarily peaceful) or not flow at all if the container can bear it and don't moves.

If not, why chinese sees rivers as dragons?

Yours,

Charly

 

[getojack]

Hi, Getojack:

I don't agree with some statement:

That's fine... you don't have to agree.

1) Water by its nature ever seeks the lower levels, but of course it can overfill if the recipient if not large enough.

Yes, of course. But that isn't due to the nature of water, but the nature of the recipient.

2) when waters meet can have natural flow (not neccessarily peaceful) or not flow at all if the container can bear it and don't moves.

Yes, very peaceful, don't you think?

If not, why chinese sees rivers as dragons?

Water is a very changeable element, thus the dragon imagery. River water acts differently from lake water or ocean water, but it's all water.

More Hansi Linderoth Polaroids on flickr

 

[rosada]

Wonderful picture getojack.

There is a scene in the movie Hoffa where Jack Nickelson is meeting with the mob boss and you sence he might not leave the room alive. But Jack not only takes charge, he even gets the top henchman to bring them cups of coffee. Great example of 29 I think.

 

[rosada]

Six at the top means:
Bound with cords and ropes,
Shut in between thorn-hedged prison walls:
For three years one does not find the way.
Misfortune.

 

[getojack]

Six at the top

上六 係用徽纆。寘于叢棘。三歲不得。凶。

shang4 liu4 xi4 yong4 hui1 mo4 zhi4 yu2 cong2 ji2 san1 sui4 bu4 de2 xiong1

 

[getojack]

I was once a Boy Scout at a camp where there was a rope bridge strung across a giant pit. The only way across was to put one foot in front of the other and be totally in the moment, not thinking about past or future... very Zen.

I made it across and kissed the ground on the other side. Then I watched as a fellow Scout made his trembling way half-way across and then froze in fear, shaking... which of course only makes things worse when you're on a rope bridge. He lost his footing and got tangled up in the ropes and started screaming for help. People were yelling advice to him, but he was in such a bad way emotionally that nothing helped.

This was the kind of bridge that only one person could cross at a time... if two people were on it at the same time, there would be too much weight and the bridge might collapse. So this kid was totally frozen there in fear and no one could go out and help him. People kept shouting encouragement to him from both sides of the pit, and eventually he composed himself enough to get back up and make it the rest of the way across. I think that kid must have a terrible fear of heights now, though.

Anyway, I think 29.6 is saying you've gone too far... past the equilibrium point, and there's no turning back. Eventually you'll get out of the danger... as long as you don't lose your head.

 

[crystal_blue]

Taking the Trigram, Water, to represent something along the lines of independence, self-motivation, self-determination, Hexagram 29 becomes Independence in the midst of Independence, that is, people being productive and overcoming obstacles but not necessarily interacting meaningfully. I was wondering if this related to business at all, in the sense of working in an office and meeting goals and so forth but not really mingling socially. The Hexagram looks sort of like that, to me - two strong Yang lines, symmetrical yet surrounded by weak Yin lines that keep them at a distance, suspended in their own duties.

 

[getojack]

Sure, 29 could relate to a business, as could any other hexagram. In a business context, I'd see 29 unchanging as saying perhaps the business was in "the pits" financially, or that there was a lot of anxiety between the workers, or that some things were being concealed. I don't know where you got the idea of the Water trigram meaning independence, though.

 

[crystal_blue]

I don't know where you got the idea of the Water trigram meaning independence, though.

The inverse of the clinging, dependent Fire Trigram.

 

[rosada]

I'm trying to figure out how 29.6 relates to the story I was seeing evolving with the first 5 lines, which seemed to be advice about how to deal with danger. In the"Rosada I Ching" I would say...

29. How to Survive in This Fast Moving World.

If you have a strong sence of yourself, if you are aware of your inner feelings, then wherever you are you can find your way.

Just stay on your path and be an inspiration to others.

1. You know better than to do things just because others do them.

2. You must find your own path, one step at a time.

3. If you truly don't know what to do, wait till the next step becomes clear.

4. Enjoy each moment.

5. And when the moment is complete, move on.

6.???

Six seems so awful! "Bound with cords and ropes" - what's that all about? Amazingly, tonight we saw the movie Hairspray and there actually was a scene in it where a girl was bound with cords and ropes! (FUN movie by the way) But back to the hexagram, the only thing I can come up with is that even when one trys to hold back and not over commit or project too far into the future, as we get to know life and how it works we can't help but see the demands that tomorrow will bring and thus even though we would like to take things one day at a time and keep our options open, inevitably we come to know what chores lie ahead and find ourselves losing our visions and dreams and accepting that our lives have limitations - and perhaps we place limits on ourselves that are greater than need be?

 

[getojack]

Seems you're getting hung up on the upper trigram...

4. In difficult times, simple offerings are better.

5. Accept the fullness of life. Don't go beyond what is right.

6. Trying to be equal to the gods, one becomes powerless.

 

[getojack]

The inverse of the clinging, dependent Fire Trigram.

IMO, this is too simplistic... From the Shuo Gua Zuan, online here:

Kan denotes water, ditches, being hidden and lying concealed, straightening and bending, bow and wheel. Applies to men, it denotes an increase of anxiety, sickness caused by anxiety, pain in the ears, the trigram of the blood, red. Applies to horses, it denotes an elegant back, impatient, drooping head (24), thin hoof, shuffling step. Applies to carriages, it denotes many frustrations (25). It denotes going right through (26), moon, thief. Applies to woody plants, it denotes those which are hard core with soft cortex.

(24) low spirits
(25) It is beacuse Kan denotes danger.
(26) freely flowing; unobstructed; through.

Li denotes fire, sun, lightening, second daughter, armor, weapons (27). Applies to men, it denotes the big-bellied. It is the trigram of dryness. It denotes fresh-water turtle with a soft shell, crab, spiral shells, mussel, tortoise. Applies to woody plants, it denotes one which is hollow and withered above.

(27) spear and sword

 

[crystal_blue]

IMO, this is too simplistic...

Viewing Kan as the inverse of Li, or the words I used to describe both?

 

[getojack]

Viewing Kan as the inverse of Li, or the words I used to describe both?

Well, both actually. "Inverse" usually means the trigram or hexagram turned upside-down. More technically Kan is the "opposite" or "complement" of Li, considering that yin and yang are opposite and complementary.

And although seeing Li as meaning "clinging" or "attachment" and Kan as meaning "independence" or "non-attachment" might help as a mnemonic device, I think the range of meaning goes way beyond those simple labels.

 

[lightofreason]

The inverse of the clinging, dependent Fire Trigram.

Water - contractive bounding - focus is on the boundary serving as protection, holds things in, keeps things out.

Fire - expansive bounding - focus is on the boundary expanding, within the boundary all is same, outside all is different. The expansion converts difference to sameness whereas contraction keeps difference out/in.

The emotions are those of rejection for water, acceptance for fire - the boundary of fire covers being with the like-minded, one of the 'gang' etc (and so 36 covers hiding since there are no likeminded present as 13 covers being with the likeminded)

water in lower represents issues of containment. Water in upper (containment doubled) represents issues with control.

fire in lower covers issues of guidance. Fire in upper (guidance doubled) covers issues of direction setting, an ideology and its promotion, distribution.

blending - issues of wholeness : heaven and earth
bounding - issues of partness : fire and water
bonding - issues of sharing space with another/others : lake and mountain
binding - issues of sharing time with another/others : wind and thunder

The bounding focus comes out of the neurology and is an archetypal meaning/feeling that is then customised through use of labels to be positive as well as negative.

Chris.

 

[rosada]

I can see why crystal would see Independence in 29. I think the word implies a feeling of self sufficency or even mastery that is not intended in this hexagram however. I mean, 29 has more of a feeling of You're-on-your-own-how-ya-gonna-deal-with-it? than Master of The Universe, which is probably more 30. Like learning to survive on one's own, 29, leads to Independence, 30.

 

[rosada]

Thanks for your thoughts on 29.6, getojack. Yes, I think it is about attempting to go beyond limits and thereby bumping up against immovable boundries. 29.5 talks about water filling a pit only to the rim. On the day we were focused on 29.5 I attempted to fill a glass with soda. As I hadn't accounted for the bubbles, I poured too much in the glass and the foam spilled over the top, making a mess. Had I controlled my pouring, I would not have had to have been controlled by the ropes and cords of reality to learn about space and gravity. Geez, I hope it doesn't take me three years to learn it.

 

[rosada]

I think it's interesting that Bruce mentioned "To thine ownself be true" on another thread while we are discussing 29. That would certainly seem to be the key lesson here.

 

[rosada]

Repeatedly bumped and scraped myself. Got to thinking about those yang lines in the center of the trigrams, like the importance of staying centered and when one goes too far off center, over the rim, you can bump into those hard canyon walls.

 

[charly]

... you don't have to agree....
... that isn't due to the nature of water, but the nature of the recipient...

Getokack:

Don' t get upset, please. I wasn't very polite with you, it wasn't my intention.

About the nature of water, may you see...

1) Say you have a continent like a 皿min

2) You pour grain in it until it is full, but not yet overflow, you have in it more grain than the capacity of the container, but the grain yet not pours: thus 夃 ying.
夃 ying is not to overflow, but to become full.

http://www.chineseetymology.org/Cha...aspx?characterInput=盈&submitButton1=Etymology

3) Now, try to do it with wine or water! It pours.

I think that's not only due to the nature of the recipient, but also due to the nature of the content.

I go to search in my LaoZi.

Yours,

Charly