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Memorizing the I Ching Hexagram 7. the Army

rosada

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Hex 7.2

7.2
In the midst of the army,
Good fortune. No blame.
The king bestows a triple decoration.
 
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lightofreason

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IC+ Line 2
"A dependence on armies leads to central stability. Advantageous."

With/from uniformity comes dualmindedness (absolute trust in another/others)

Note the focus on 'central' - meanwhile out on the periphery the next revolution begins...
 

rosada

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I find it kinda tricky to think about 7. as "The Army". Have to give this one a more personally meaningful title..The Group? The Work Crew? The Team?... Also we never made any comment about 7.1 leading to 19. Any ideas? Would this be telling us that at the outset when order is imperative, our first thought should be finding a 19, a superior man inexhaustible in his will to teach?... Then what is 7.2>2 telling us? 2 can be interpreted as meaning that-which-is-unknown, so maybe the leader in 7.2 has got to be knowledgable because he is taking us in to the Unknown...Yesterday I went with a friend to buy a pizza. I was in the car, but she was doing the driving. We got lost, if I'd realized she didn't know where we were going I would have spoken up. So it seemed like a fitting representation of 7.1 - perhaps the best navigator was not at the helm. But misfortune only "threatened", we did get to our destination....Of course, it was also a good example of 7.2. My friend was right there with me, driving the car off into the 2. Unknown, and even though she first went "astray" she was able to "find guidance" and quiet perseverance did "Bring good fortune." Looking at it this way, I'm seeing 7.2 as emphasizing the importance of the leader being on the ground with the troups, the leader may not know what the best solution is, but by being in the field, the leader then can tap in to 2. Intuition, to find the next best move...I'm getting over and over here a sence that one of the key tips the I Ching gives is that while it's important to start with a plan, or an intention, one must then get onto the field, get involved, be a part of the action to learn what to do next. Life cannot be lived from an ivory tower...Hex. 7. seems to be a very physical energy to me. Been doing a lot of moving around and moving around in co-ordinated group efforts since we started on this one. We talk about it being similar to a teacher and a class, but I gotta say, I think it's a P.E. or a shop class, not a sit quietly and read experience.
 

hilary

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Ah, now we understand 2 as the archetypal feminine: the ability to ask directions.
 

Trojina

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rosada said:
Looking at it this way, I'm seeing 7.2 as emphasizing the importance of the leader being on the ground with the troups, the leader may not know what the best solution is, but by being in the field, the leader then can tap in to 2. Intuition, to find the next best move...I'm getting over and over here a sence that one of the key tips the I Ching gives is that while it's important to start with a plan, or an intention, one must then get onto the field, get involved, be a part of the action to learn what to do next. Life cannot be lived from an ivory tower...Hex. 7. seems to be a very physical energy to me. Been doing a lot of moving around and moving around in co-ordinated group efforts since we started on this one. We talk about it being similar to a teacher and a class, but I gotta say, I think it's a P.E. or a shop class, not a sit quietly and read experience.

I like these connections alot. To get good intuition going (2) in any project (7) it helps a great deal to step right into the physical reality and detail of it like Rosada says. You can't get a ''feel' for whats needed if you are miles from the action. Mundane example, I often assist people with their redecoration - with ideas of what colours/textures to use because for some reason when i go into a room of someones I can get a sense of the best colours for them and their room - but I have to keep going into the room at times during the project to keep an understanding of where we are at. I could just try to hold an image of the room in my mind but it doesn't seem to work like that.

On another level this line reminds me of how in times of public disaster etc people want their leader in their midst, even if for all practical purposes they could as well be in a different place to the crisis. It must provide important moral support.
 
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lightofreason

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rosada said:
Also we never made any comment about 7.1 leading to 19. Any ideas? .

Ummm... this WAS mentioned for the IC+ interpretation of 7.1:

lightofreason said:
with/from uniforming comes approaching/defering

touches on issues of the high deferring to the low, the low allowed to approach the high. Very 'unmilitary' conduct or more so 'unnatural' for a hierarchy.

19 is about approaching/defering.
 

RindaR

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rosada said:
7.2
In the midst of the army,
Good fortune. No blame.
The king bestows a triple decoration.
This reminds me of a feather-diagram. The tip of the feather (the anchor point) represents the specific situation/thing/relationship/behavior (whatever) is being examined. The veins that hook together to make up the body of the feather are each of the elements that feed into the anchor point - the army.

A specific example that comes to my therapist's mind is helping a client look at the antecedents to an incident where they were sexually abused as a child. The abuse is the anchor point. All the things that the client perceives as contributing to the situation are the veins. Was the perpetrator drinking? Was the client wearing something immodest? Who bought the clothes? Was the child trained to be always obedient to his/her elders? Was the child left alone with the perpetrator, or did she/he seek time alone with them? If they sought time alone, why? what needs were being met by such time alone, and why might they have been problematic (were the parents of the child meeting the social and self-esteem needs of the child?) When a person has been made to feel responsible for his/her own victimization it can be extremely valuable to check out just who had responsibility for each of these factors.

One can also use this method to prepare to reach an objective. What is the objective? What are the factors that may feed into it? How much control does the querent have over each of these factors/ These questions can help someone see who "owns" a problem, and if it does belong to them, how they can realistically approach it.

This line also speaks to me of leading with positive reinforcement rather than fear.

just a few thoughts...

Rinda
 
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bruce_g

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hilary said:
Ah, now we understand 2 as the archetypal feminine: the ability to ask directions.

I guess that just goes to show what well balanced men we here are, asking Yi for directions. Or, maybe we just tell Yi what its answers mean? :rolleyes: Don't worry, honey, I'll find it.
 
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bruce_g

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7 as a Swiss Army knife and a feather, cool.

But now everything I look at looks like 7. Looking at my guitar amp, it is a large array of components, all neatly pulled together into the form of a box. It’s not turned on all the time, but it’s always ready to go in short order. The computer, TV, the house itself is a collection of specialties, encamped inconspicuously in a barracks of sorts.

Chris mentioned something earlier about relinquishing ones independence. That’s what boot camp’s all about. There is no “I” in TEAM.

It’s interesting when you turn that to yourself, because you can see the independent parts running around, barking orders or doing their own thing. Someone needs to take charge, and so the general arises from within you.
 

denis_m

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There is a line from the Tang dynasty poet Du Fu that echoes the phrase in #7.2: "Shi1 zhong1 yi4 ku3 le4."
This literally means: "In the midst of the army, suffering and joy are a whole different thing ." This seems to imply that soldiers have their own world of joy and suffering in the ranks. We civilians can't easily understand.
The king realizes he cannot understand what happens in the field, so he gives the commander broad commands and encourages him to use his judgment. The king respects the commander in 7.2. The wording used is literally: ""the king bestows a command three times."
This is different from the strict military code implied in 7.1. According to military law in ancient China, a commander would vow to accomplish a certain mission, and if he did not, he was in theory subject to capital punishment on his return. That is implied by the "code" in 7.1.
From 7.1 to 7.2, the relation between king and commander becomes more personal and respectful.

Denis M
 

RindaR

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denis_m said:
There is a line from the Tang dynasty poet Du Fu that echoes the phrase in #7.2: "Shi1 zhong1 yi4 ku3 le4."
This literally means: "In the midst of the army, suffering and joy are a whole different thing ." This seems to imply that soldiers have their own world of joy and suffering in the ranks. We civilians can't easily understand.
The king realizes he cannot understand what happens in the field, so he gives the commander broad commands and encourages him to use his judgment. The king respects the commander in 7.2. The wording used is literally: ""the king bestows a command three times."
This is different from the strict military code implied in 7.1. According to military law in ancient China, a commander would vow to accomplish a certain mission, and if he did not, he was in theory subject to capital punishment on his return. That is implied by the "code" in 7.1.
From 7.1 to 7.2, the relation between king and commander becomes more personal and respectful.

Denis M

:bows: makes a lot more sense than feathers...

Rinda
 

rosada

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Hex. 7.3

7.3
Perchance the army carries corpses in the wagon.
Misfortune.
 

RindaR

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corpses - weighty, difficult to manage emotionally and physically for those carrying them, yet there may be good reasons not to leave them behind. Something that needs to be put to rest before one can move freely again. Something that consumes resources, it/they may be a byproduct of the process being examined by the querent, and is utterly unable to contribute to the resolution of the battle.... pain can be like this...

It leads to 48: ascending, growing.. (or arises from this process, depending on how one reads.)

next?

Rinda
 
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lightofreason

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rosada said:
7.3
Perchance the army carries corpses in the wagon.
Misfortune.

IC+ 7.3

Line 3
"A dangerous situation can occur within an army if it is inefficient or if the 'raw' take control over the 'refined'. (Breaking with tradition)"

with/from uniforming comes increased entanglements (pushing upward - 46, NOT 48)

010000 -> 011000. Hex 48 is 011010

The benefits of social entanglements are known but in containment/control contexts things need to remain well differentiated else lack of precision creeps in and so increases in inefficiency. (entanglements allow for increase in corruption - be it criminal or by neglect - structurally 46 shares space with 18)

The focus on avoiding 'confusion' (entanglements) is covered in the ideogram for 07:

"SHIH : troops; an organized unit, a metropolis; leader, general, model, master; organize, make functional; take as a model, imitate. The ideogram: heap and whole, organize confusion into functional units." ERANOS p151

For 07.3 we have a focus on:

Legions maybe carting corpses. Pitfall (ERANOS p156)

But these terms are extracted from the ideograms for 7.3 of:

LEGIONS - SHIH (see above)
MAYBE - HUO: possible but not certain, perhaps.
CART - YU: carrying capacity of a vehicle; contains, hold, sustain.
CORPSE - SHIH: dead human body; effigy, statue; inefficient, useless; impersonate.
PITFALL - HSIUNG : leads away from the experience of meaning; stuck and exposed to danger, unable to take in a situation; flow of life and spirit is blocked; unfortunate.

CORPSE covers the sense of a 'false body', not 'real', no 'life', and so the sense of an "Army" that is not such (and so inefficient etc). The focus on 'uncertain troops' covers a 'raw' form of collective that contains no 'life' as an Army etc

Add-in the path of change to 46 and so issues of entanglements, possible corruption etc and the line comments make sense.
 
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hilary

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Sorry I'm late, I've been out (yes, me, out, away from the keyboard - extraordinary) meeting up with Sheri Ritchlin - very, very interesting woman!

A quick 7.2 thought. Here is the army's earth: the commander at the centre of the army is available and ready to receive guidance. (I find this one very easy to remember in relation to its zhi gua.)

In practice this can often mean that you don't find out exactly what you're called on to do until you put yourself in the heart of the action. (Maybe related to the insight from that poet Denis quoted - thank you, Denis...) Also that once you have moved to the centre, you may find your orders change. Lots. Better stay alert to circumstances and keep an ear open for new messages.

I like the idea of 7.2 as going to the heart of the issue to begin sorting it out, too.

Back to the corpses in the wagon. I know 46 is the complement of 25, but it doesn't have the negative sense of 'entanglement' - at least, not in its 10th century BC version.
 

cesca

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Sorry to jump in late here – I was out yesterday evening.

Quote: I find it kinda tricky to think about 7. as "The Army". Have to give this
one a more personally meaningful title..The Group? The Work Crew? The Team?...

How about The Multitude? It’s not really a group or a team until it’s organized around a leader, or at least a goal – like iron filings around a magnet.

Quote: Ah, now we understand 2 as the archetypal feminine: the ability to ask directions.

And of the ability to lead from behind, or below, as has already been said.

Quote: This literally means: "In the midst of the army, suffering and joy are a whole different thing." This seems to imply that soldiers have their own world of joy and suffering in the ranks. We civilians can't easily understand.

Amen to that. And generals and politicians in ivory towers can’t understand it either.


Now, on to 7.3….
‘The Mandate of Heaven’ has a few pages devoted to this hexagram. He suggests – if I have understood it correctly – that this line refers to a divination concerning King Wu carrying his dead father’s corpse in battle: ‘perhaps the army carries the corpse?’ The prosnostication is disastrous – but the general rejects the divination and does it anyway.
 

RindaR

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What was the corpse supposed to do for them?
 

rosada

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Really, really interesting line...."Perchance"..what does that word mean? It must be significant to have survived all these centuries....Are we to consider that perchance the rotting corpse is not the end but that the spirit is now risen?
 

jte

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Jumping back to 7.2 for a bit, it's noteworthy that the award mentioned in the line implies another who gives it. In other words, the subject of line 7.2 is going forward *in service of another*. Who or what that other is depends of course on the precise question or circumstances. I think that in a case where one is taking up a cause or undertaking something for the general welfare, that "other" can become very abstract. Something like "humanity" or "the poor", etc.

On line 7.3, I've seen so much discussion over this line - it's a qualified negative, implying failure. Something needs to change or be adjusted in order for success to become possible/likely again. I think maybe people overthink this one...

My 2 cents,

- Jeff
 

ewald

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rosada said:
Really, really interesting line...."Perchance"..what does that word mean? It must be significant to have survived all these centuries....Are we to consider that perchance the rotting corpse is not the end but that the spirit is now risen?
"Perchance" means "maybe, possibly."

In my view this is an incorrect translation of 或. Why would the Yijing be about things that are "maybe" there? When you consult the Yijing, you want to know what "is" there.

或 can also mean something, somebody, someone, some, and that is how I translate it in the 13 lines it is in. So for 7.3:
Somebody in the army carries corpses.
Misfortune.
 

ewald

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jte said:
Jumping back to 7.2 for a bit, it's noteworthy that the award mentioned [...]
I don't quite see how 命 can be translated with "award" or "decoration" actually. It means fate, destiny / life, life span / law, decree, command, order, assignment, edict / mandate, higher purpose.

This is about the king giving orders or issueing edicts, in my view. He is affecting the army's fate, giving it a mandate.
 
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lightofreason

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hilary said:
Back to the corpses in the wagon. I know 46 is the complement of 25, but it doesn't have the negative sense of 'entanglement' - at least, not in its 10th century BC version.

tsk tsk grasshopper - one needs to move on from the customisations of the 10th century BC ;-)

the 'core' meaning of 46 has a focus on contractive binding in which is operating contractive blending. Contractive binding covers issues of 'social' or 'environmental' contracts and assocation with issues of the passage of time - as such it covers cultivation etc - it can cover farming as it can cover personal relationships etc but not as a BOND, where it is hard to break the relationship that shares the same SPACE, with BIND the focus is on sharing TIME.

the contractive blending focus is on drawing something 'in' to aid in completing the sense of wholeness. This extends to the notion of blending in with a context to get identity from such. 46 thus reads "with/from cultivation comes dualmindedness (absolute trust in another/others)" Thus, when considered with (a) the hexagram 46 shares meaning with, 18, and (b) the structural opposite of 46, 25 that covers dis-entangling, to assert opinion 'free' of entanglments (to reject consideration of consequences etc) - so 46 covers getting more entangled. This is not positive nore negative - the LOCAL context adds that colouring and that comes out in the consideration of the 07-46 dynamic associated with the line comments of 7.3

The shared space of 46, where it is UNCONDITIONAL, is with 18 that is CONDITIONAL. 18 covers quality control in a context of cultivation and so includes both the positive (maintain quality through continuous correcting of small errors etc) as well as the negative - the emergence of an 'entanglement' of worms etc that comes with neglect, cronyism, nepotism etc etc

ALL hexagrams come with positive/negative attributes sources at the LOCAL levels (and so I can choose to interpret earth as total darkness as I can it representing devotion to another/others. The emotional ROOT of earth is in fact in darkness and fear. the 'warming' of that root is in the darkness becoming a womb etc)

So - the focus of 7.3 is "with/from uniforming comes entanglements" - then comes consideration of particular comment that brings out issues of entanglements - you can 'push up', get more involved, but in doing so enter the slippary path going 'downhill'.

Chris
 

jte

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Hi, Ewald -

Yes, you have a good point there - "award" was based on me paraphrasing Wilhelm's "decoration" and does seem to miss the mark on the meaning of the term. The synonyms you use express the idea of what the king has given/done more clearly.

Keep in mind that I'm not a translator/speaker of Chinese and so am limited to what I see in translations (as well as personal experience).

I still think my point emphasizing the "other" implied in the line is a valid one that people may miss, depending on the situation they may be in when they draw this line.

It's interesting to speculate as to why/how the concept "decoration" - implying an award or military honor - might have gotten into Wilhelm. Would the Chinese have considered receiving a mandate of this kind as an especially honorable thing? Just wondering...

- Jeff
 

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Hi Jeff - It seemed that I disagreed with something you said, while actually it was only an occasion for me to express my disagreement with Wilhelm's translation.

It's indeed a good point you made.
 

rosada

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Hex. 7.4

7.4
The army retreats. No blame.
 

rosada

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Hope there's NO BLAME if I RETREAT back to 7.3 for a moment... Yeah, I guess I was trying to read too much into it with thoughts of corpses and spirits. I was trying to reconcile the idea cesca presented that the fallen leader's body might be paraded before the troups and for what purpose? Perhaps to inspire, enrage the troups to fight harder? Anyway ... I'm not clear what you are saying about space being relevent in 7.2 and time being relevent in 7.3, Chris, can you give a real life example? (And thank you for pointing out that you did give us the connection for 7.1 leading to 19.Approach. I missed it and I'm glad I reread your take on it.)...I think your observation that uniformity(7.2>2) leads to trust is very useful. When members of the band all wear the same t-shirt it does bring the group together and when the band leader wears a special hat it not only makes him easier to identify, but if the leadership changes yet the hat remains, the trust built up for the old leader passes on to the new one...Although a good case is made that "Perchance" could be a mistranslation, I am not easily persuaded to abandon it. The suggestion that "The Army" could also be known as "The Multitude" with the idea that the people/ideas will line up like metal filings around the most powerful one makes a lot of sence to me. If people do naturally align outwardly with that which is intune with their own inner nature, or inner teacher, then they may not be in alignment with what 7.2 is directing, but rather, are off following their own ideas. Wilhelm suggests the word for "corpses" could be translated to mean "all" as in "Perchance all the army is in the wagon," meaning that everyone is being a leader, following their individual ideas, the team is not co-ordinated - which would result in misfortune...and thus the idea of 7.4 Retreat, don't go any further until plans are better co-ordianted. In real life this could resemble a situation like a pot luck dinner where everyone is supposed to bring what ever they feel like bringing, but if they don't know each other very well and there's no strong guidance, then dinner could be all lopsided. ..I think this fits with the story line of a general who comes into a situation where things need to be lined up in proper order 7.1, he sees what needs to be done 7.2, but it's still a fly by the seat of your pants operation, finding out what the team can do, what may or may not work 7.3.
 
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rosada

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Looking at Karcher...He suggests 7.3 is a warning about being haunted by past memories.
 

rosada

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Again looking at Karcher...He suggests 7.4 is a good thing, a time of rest. "A tactical retreat or move towards peace. In any case, value this time of rest. It is not a mistake."

Looking at Karcher ideas..it seems he is suggesting that The Army is not about a Conflict leading to creating an Army and marching off to war, but rather, The Army with it's inspiring leader strives to get past the old conflicts,(7.3 haunting memories 7.4 giv'em a rest), and move conciousness forward to better days ahead.
 

denis_m

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Just a little hop back to 7.3.
There is a macabre double meaning here: "Shi1 huo4 yu2 shi1." Literally, in the army, corpses will perhaps be carried in wagons." The first shi1 is "Army"; the second shi1 is a different word that means "corpse".
In traditional funerals, a "corpse" (shi1) also refers to a stand-in during a funeral: he's the person who stands in for the dead during the mourning rite. Usually the shi1 role in a funeral is assumed by a relative of the deceased. In a sense, all the relatives are like shi1: they wear hemp cloth and sometimes put ashes on their faces.
Seeing "shi1" carried in wagons gives me an image of mourners riding to a funeral. And since we're talking about soldiers in an army, it's as if the soldiers are riding to their own funeral. This is a secondary meaning that is made possible by the Yi's oracular language.
As for 7.4, the phrase "zuo3 ci4" has some interesting meanings. It means the army is garrisoned away from the action, to the left. The left is the king's intimate side, where his closest advisors stand. It is also the vulnerable side (think of 36.4). It is also the side of life, rather than the side of death, in a mourning ritual. The Daode Jing has a verse that says the main general stands on the king's right, because that is the side of death (i.e. the stand-in) in the mourning ritual. The junior general stands to the left, because that is the side of life in the mourning ritual.
Garrisoning in non-combat areas, historically, often led to a situation in which the soldiers became farmers and took local, non-Han wives. There is speculation that the Yao people, and perhaps other minorities, are the result of such early ethnic mixing.

Regards,

Denis
 
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jesed

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Hi Rosada

Just in case the comment could be useful

rosada said:
it seems he is suggesting that The Army is not about a Conflict leading to creating an Army and marching off to war,

When (Hex 6) people gathered together are in conflictive situation
requieres (Hex 7) a wise leader that starts the organization of the mass;
then (Hex 8) solidarity is posible

Best wishes
 

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