Needing help with 44.5 - 50

[moss elk]

Especially territorialism. I hate that.

:bows:

 

[Trojina]

If you have a problem with a moderator the most effective course of action IMO is to PM Hilary who is actually responsible for them and for what they do.


Here's a link to the forum rules


https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?8285-How-the-I-Ching-Community-works


From which I take this sentence.

If you disagree with a moderator's decision you can ask them about it politely, or you can email me to protest.

Here it was asked about politely - although as Freedda said this has somewhat derailed the thread topic, I'm just saying there is another option of just going straight to Hilary who moderates the moderators so to speak.

As moderators are volunteers and are meant to act as a team, having an issue with one in particular in a thread can exert pressure on that individual moderator. I don't think it should come to that, well not in any great measure at least, I think it is better just to go to the person who appointed them and is responsible for them. If volunteer moderators are struggling with issues around their actions and use of language they have to go back to their 'employer' so to speak for advice/support etc etc.

 

[Trojina]

You describe a Rorschach test or a piece of artwork.
Yi is neither.
Each Chapter and Line has specific meanings that can be comprehended.

Actually it is somewhat like Rorschach since all meanings must be understood within a context and within a mind. Whilst there are meanings to be understood and one cannot make of answers just exactly what one will it isn't true to say there is just the one meaning.

For one thing none of us actually even knows for 100% surity what the original authors intended, not even the best of scholars.


As far as I am concerned 44.5 really does not mean 'hide your melons' ! I think that's just wrong yet you have stated that very definitely as 'the meaning'. The melon is hidden, wrapped and then falls which doesn't mean 'off you go and wrap it up'. Now it does depend on the translation you use....there's a whole thread on 44.5 I will link to. I note Wilhelm's speaks of a covered melon that drops, Hilary's does speak of using willow to wrap melons but that is not the same things as hiding your melons.


You can't hide this, it comes upon you and it may not be what you asked or bargained for, that is my experience.


Also the lines here change the overall oracle. In line 2 there is potential there but it is not quite ready to be be 'consumated' or made formal. Then in line 5 unexpectedly there is fruit !


You have stated several times in this thread what you believe 44.5 means - as if it were fact. It's not fact, this open to interpretation. If this were my reading I would not be scurrying away to hide melons.


(for the original poster)I'd be cautious - there is something here one is not at all in control of, possibly emotions given the situation and yet there is something that can come out of all this - the art project.


My concern would be if the guy is romantically interested in you I don't think you can expect to have a total handle on what he may or may not still want to do/have with you. You aren't very much in control in 44. So it's a balance isn't it between wanting to do the art project and needing to keep him in the relation you want with him.


I am going to look for that 44.5 thread I recall.

 

[Trojina]

Still looking, it was an old long thread with stuff from LiSe in...meanwhile there's bound to be a 44.5 Blog post of Hilary's somewhere...so far I just found this on 44...and of course 44 is very much associated with a visitation from the muse

https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2015/05/27/more-on-hexagram-44/

 

[moss elk]

Actually it is somewhat like Rorschach since all meanings must be understood within a context and within a mind.

I would agree if I may tack on to that sentence: within a mind that exists in a larger reality: the koinos kosmos (shared world).
In my private world (idios kosmos), I may believe that I am without flaw. In the shared world you see can the spinach in my teeth.

For one thing none of us actually even knows for 100% surity what the original authors intended, not even the best of scholars.

I don't believe you actually believe this, seeing as how there are those times when a reading was done, an experience plays out, then you know exactly what the author meant with a text.
I don't think you would have dedicated decades of your life to Yi study and use otherwise.
Can you say with a straight face that you don't know exactly what 52 unchanging means?

 

[Trojina]

I don't believe you actually believe this, seeing as how there are those times when a reading was done, an experience plays out, then you know exactly what the author meant with a text.
I don't think you would have dedicated decades of your life to Yi study and use otherwise.

Well I may have known some of what the original authors meant but no way could I claim to know all of what they meant. I couldn't possibly because for a million different questions ina million different times a million different nuances of an answer can shine through to a million different people. And when I say million I mean a million million and beyond.


If I experience a line a certain way a number of times I might write it in wiki but that doesn't mean I think I know what that line will always mean for anyone who ever casts it.


There's a balance of course, a fine line between saying that and saying anyone can make it mean whatever they want to mean - but there is a balance.


You said you were quite sure of a reading where you thought Yi was simply saying in 37.2 that you would stay home if you didn't go dating. I saw those casts somewhat differently but thought as those were the meanings that leapt out at you there was a good chance those were actually the meanings for you at that moment, so I didn't say anything.


Sometimes the oddest meanings to us will leap out for some individual when they consult and to a degree we have to respect that because their conversation is with the Oracle not with us. Again it is a fine balance between that and seeing someone go so crazily off track we feel almost compelled to say 'no it doesn't say that'. How can we tell the difference ? Well I guess we just have to go with our sense of it as best we can. Often if I see an interpretation I think is crazily off track I will say so, and so do you which is fine.


But in this particular instance I don't think your grave warnings about melon hiding weighed very strongly against the querents own sense of the answer and I was really glad when she had the inner conviction to hold to her meaning.

Can you say with a straight face that you don't know exactly what 52 unchanging means?

52uc could have very different implications for action according to the question, the context, the reader. So yes it is Keeping Still but in practise in readings it can play out quite differently.


I don't think what I have said is mock worthy really and yes I could make that statement with a straight face.


Also I haven't devoted decades of my life to the study of Yi - I have barely ever studied it at all as I have virtually no scholarly interest in it so I turn to scholars for that. I just use the Oracle, have for many years and from that reach around gathering from experience, what I read in books and here and observations and so on. I have studied it by carrying it with me and thinking about it but I have not sat at desks with Chinese dictionaries and histories and all that - that's dedication. My way of study is more instrinsic to my life and really takes no effort at all since I like to think about it.

 

[moss elk]

I wasn't mocking you,
I was just laughing.
May I lighten up.

 

[Trojina]

ps I don't think the study of Chinese dictionaries and histories always necessarily lead to better interpretation skills. I have seen plenty of times it appears to have the reverse effect so I'm not one to be automatically in awe when someone throws a few Chinese characters at me. However I do recognize I owe a huge amount to some dedicated scholars without whom I/we would all still be totally in the dark.


But you do know even dedicated scholars don't claim total certainty on the intended meaning of a line don't you ? There's a 3000 year gap here between us and the authors so our interpretations, even backed by experience are by necessity always poetic.

 

[Trojina]

For some reason Moss Elk deleted what was in my post and wrote his resignation from moderating in there.


I was just answering your points Moss Elk not fighting with you and I really didn't know why you were laughing at me. I see no reason any of that would make you resign.

 

[moss elk]

Sorry, that was me bumping my shins on the way out. (didn't mean to do it) Farewell.
:bows:

 

[Olga Super Star]

I nominate Freedda for moderator.

 

[Olga Super Star]

One 44.5 I can well remember is my getting my former housemate's single room when she left. It was a real melon from the sky because it has a proper wall instead of plasterboard so all of a sudden it was more privacy, a bigger wardrobe, and no reasons for fighting served on a silver plate to my next-to-wall housemate who seemed to find particular joy in provoking me with music in the middle of the night or with bells singing at 6 in the morning.

Yet, it was a partial joy because moving to this room was the beginning of the end: another housemate tried a military coup in the house, we all lived a hell of a nightmare for months which ended with me having to change the locks and he calling the police and hackering my computer; then the landlord died and the house was put on sale, now the son of the landlord and the real estate agent are both pressing me to leave the house (they own at least 5 houses, why do they have to start from the only one they are renting out?).
They can't formally do anything as I do hold a regular contract and they are not the owners yet; plus they keep asking me for a copy of the key which is absolutely against the law. Yet It is all quite stressing so I haven't enjoyed this wonderful room as I would have.

(Note that my previous room had a balcony, that is the reason why at first I didn't want to move. The book said melons from the sky, meaning it might not look as good as your former room but it hides something - a proper wall!!)