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Negative prognosis on no matter how I act. What to do? 2.1>24, 27.1.3>52, 24.1.2>7

vikk

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Negative prognosis on no matter how I act. What to do? 2.1>24, 27.1.3>52, 24.1.2>7

Hi all!

I hope everyone is great and enjoying spring!

I'm yet again turning to the help of the oracle and consequently yours, all fellow IChingers!

Our lease is expiring July 1 and we are contemplating on what to do - move or stay, ask for month to month lease and move later in fall.

The apartment has huge pros and cons. We love that it is close to the subway and of short commute to our work. We hate that it is verrrrrryy old, has little storage space (even after a year being here I didnt unpack some boxes), dingy neighborhood.
My husband drop decision making on my shoulders - he doesn't care where we move as long as it is cheaper. He wouldn't care if we stayed in our old place.
So now dreading stress of moving I asked
"What do you think (the oracle) if we move?" 2.1>24
"What do you if we stayed until the end of the summer and move then?" 34.3>54
"What if we stayed?" 27.1.3>52
Completely confused, looks like I'm getting negative prognosis on all of the questions I asked
"Iching, what would you do with this apartment if you were us" 24.1.2>7

What do you think it is saying?

Love, Vikk
 

Trojina

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I'm yet again turning to the help of the oracle and consequently yours, all fellow IChingers!

If you remember the oracle is generally talking to you more than anything outside you, always addressing your own state, interpreting should get easier.


So now dreading stress of moving I asked
"What do you think (the oracle) if we move?" 2.1>24

2.1 advises that what appears to be true now will be even more so in time to come. I'm puzzled in how you term the question of what the oracle thinks. I guess you mean is it good if you move ? I mean the oracle doesn't care if you move or not if you know what I mean. It's up to you...so all this answer is saying is what is true now in potential will become more so. It isn't answering you directly....so I don't know what this means.



"What do you if we stayed until the end of the summer and move then?" 34.3>54

That seems too forceful in some way.



"What if we stayed?" 27.1.3>52
Completely confused, looks like I'm getting negative prognosis on all of the questions I asked

Er this is basically 'you can make your own mind up why are you asking me ?'. Do what you need to do.


"Iching, what would you do with this apartment if you were us" 24.1.2>7

LOL Yi doesn't need an apartment....Vikk how can this question apply ? It doesn't make sense to me. It's your choice absolutely and I think your answers reflect that.

Often when answers seem not to really answer it can be Yi is referring you back to the ordinary human way of making choices....which is what I think is happening here. To me it's clear you don't really want to move


There is nothing mysterious here, no hidden factors, the choice is yours. I don't think you want to move. I think Yi is answering in the light of the awareness that you don't want to move. You may think it's a good idea to move but you don't want to.

What does a person do when they feel they ought to move but they don't want to ?


I don't know....and neither does Yi as far as I can tell. The 34.3 option is quite clearly too stubborn, to eager for resolution in some way. I think the 27.1.3>52 is Yi saying "look you know what is necessary and what isn't in an apartment (27) you don't need to consult me on this (27.1) and you are going beyond what is really appropriate to finding a solution here (27.3) because I don't think you really want to go anywhere (52) anyway.


:confused: I think it boils down entirely to what you want and how you feel.

Sometimes that's what a rather disconnected string of answers such as these can tell us.

Others may see it differently...but my feeling is Yi is somewhat turning away and suggesting you decide. That's my feeling on it. Sometimes I can feel this with my own answers. It's not a negative thing as such...because it's a reminder we are perfectly well equipped to make a choice in the ordinary human way like

what do I want to do ?
what is possible ?


and so on.


One thing I will say is I think your first answer the 2.1>24 is the most important and of course you came full circle with that as your last reading was the reverse 24.1.2>7. I think you need to think about that 2.1 more. I can't help with that because I don't know what that means to you. I don't think I have helped much with these answers anyway but I may as well post what I've come up with :eek:
 

vikk

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Hi Trojina!
Thank you yet again for the reply!

There are a few things I would like to address.

First of all, how I formulate my questions. I came to realize that after talking to the oracle for quite some time I am getting more and more confused on how for talk to her.
I see IChing to be a gracious female, mother earth, if you wish, who I can talk to honestly, and ask whatever the h'''''''''' I want. Therefore, I ask her a lot on her opinion if I do A or B, or what would she do if she were in my shoes? Maybe that is why I am still confused how to talk to the Oracle.

Second of all, back to my general confusion. We all tend to ask a particular question being hopeful to get a detailed scenario of what would happen if we did or didn't do something. Why is the Oracle making us even more confused by sometimes addressing something completely different, something what is in the air, but what was asked about?

I feel like in my case IChing wasn't giving me scenarios of what to happen if I stayed or left the apartment. It just kept addressing the issue in general - stop asking me questions, you are pushing for the answer too hard, it is up to you to decide.

So by giving these sort of responses, the oracle defeats her purpose - of giving clarity to the situation.

I have to think about 2.1>24 primarily like you, Trojina, suggested. But again I asked for oracle's clarification, but got confused even more. I understand that it is up to me to see what frost will turn onto ice in the future, but again... I asked the oracle for clarification, and it feels like she is leaving me stranded.

What do you think, Trojina?

Thank you!

Love, Vikk
 
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Liselle

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From Hilary's translation:

"What do you think (the oracle) if we move?" 2.1>24
2.1
'Treading on frost, Hard ice is arriving.’

"What do you if we stayed until the end of the summer and move then?" 34.3>54
34.3
‘Small people use vigour,
Noble one uses a net.
Constancy: danger.
The ram butts a hedge,
Entangles his horns.’


"What if we stayed?" 27.1.3>52
27.1
‘Giving up your own spirit tortoise,
Gazing at me with jaws hanging down.
Pitfall.’


27.3
‘Rejecting nourishment.
Constancy, pitfall.
For ten years, don’t act.
No direction bears fruit.’


"Iching, what would you do with this apartment if you were us" 24.1.2>7
24.1
‘Not far away, returning.
No regrets here.
From the source, good fortune.’


24.2
'Rest and return. Good fortune.’

One thing that occurs to me is, do you have anyplace in mind to move to? It sounds as if you're looking at it as, first decide whether or not to move at all, and then find another apartment. Maybe it should be done the other way around? If you find a new apartment that's clearly better (whatever "better" means to you), then your decision will be easy: move. If you don't, then your decision is also easy: don't move.

The only little thing you might have to do right now is keep your options open, and that might very well mean a month-to-month lease.

How do the readings say that? I'm not sure! I think there's something to it, or I wouldn't say it, but right this minute I'm not seeing exactly how to explain how and why.

I mean, the hexagram 24s could kind of mean "do it the other way around," I suppose...the treading on frost to turn it into ice (2.1) could mean firming things up - firming up in your minds what you want, firming up your plans, firming up where to move to - and you do that by treading on the frost. That could mean doing some looking around at other apartments, getting an idea of what's available and so forth...?

[Edited] Using a net from 34.3 could mean letting something come to you, rather than trying to force it - which again could mean just looking around to see what's available, while doing what you can to keep your options open in case you catch something...?

I think part of the message (24.2, for example) is that you don't have to be frantic about this - there's no specific deadline, no one is making you move.
 

ragini

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vikk, I feel for you. I have had a set of similar responses for a different set of issues. My take on your reading based on my own responses is -

There is a process underway which will culminate (frost turning to ice) in some time, but you cannot make it happen by willing it. It's better to wait. Don't plan on doing anything (stay (27.1.3) or leave). Cast your net and wait for Divine guidance (34.3).

Take some time to relax and recuperate. Read, listen to music, and meditate on impermanace in the dingy neighboourhood :) and wait patiently and with alertness for the developments to happen - that's what the IChing would do if they were you :)

I think it's a good reading. It's just that the IChing is telling you that a process is underway and instead of stressing it (which might actually make you immobile), go with the flow and be responsive to cues.
 
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Liselle

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Hi Ragini,

It's actually not my reading; it's Vikk's. I'm only commenting on it, same as you :).
 

Trojina

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Hi Trojina!
Thank you yet again for the reply!

There are a few things I would like to address.

First of all, how I formulate my questions. I came to realize that after talking to the oracle for quite some time I am getting more and more confused on how for talk to her.
I see IChing to be a gracious female, mother earth, if you wish, who I can talk to honestly, and ask whatever the h'''''''''' I want. Therefore, I ask her a lot on her opinion if I do A or B, or what would she do if she were in my shoes? Maybe that is why I am still confused how to talk to the Oracle.

You can talk to it how you like...but the 'if you were in my shoes..' is just hard for me to process, but if it works for you use it. You seemed to be asking the same question as before with different words which is why you got answers that went full circle I guess...2.1 then 24.1

Second of all, back to my general confusion. We all tend to ask a particular question being hopeful to get a detailed scenario of what would happen if we did or didn't do something. Why is the Oracle making us even more confused by sometimes addressing something completely different, something what is in the air, but what was asked about?

The oracle won't take decision making away from you. It may be also that what you ask about is based upon a broader misconception. For example I think you asked many questions here about whether to take your husband back since he had cheated. You asked over and over and over again as if the oracle could decide for you, when in the end you needed take some answers and make your own choice. What if the whole question of whether to move is also bound up with whether you choose to stay with him as not so long ago I think you weren't sure. At least I think it was you.

I feel like in my case IChing wasn't giving me scenarios of what to happen if I stayed or left the apartment. It just kept addressing the issue in general - stop asking me questions, you are pushing for the answer too hard, it is up to you to decide.

I agree I don't think it was giving you scenarios. At least I certainly don't feel that. Why would that happen ? I wouldn't know as I'm not you. I'm thinking there is a whole bigger issue and given previous threads I wondered if it might be the marriage ? I don't know. It happens sometimes and you'll likely see in hindsight what these answers were saying. This is just my view. Others might be able to work through the lines and fit them to your situation. I'm 'hearing', in the overall conversation between you and Yi here, that it isn't answering you directly so I'm wondering if it is talking to you more directly about where you find yourself now ? 2.1 how you feel now will solidify....24.1.2 go back to yourself.

So by giving these sort of responses, the oracle defeats her purpose - of giving clarity to the situation.

No. You are consulting with a higher broader perspective than your own. Hence you may not always see why it answers the way it does. It isn't a servant to perform in a certain way when you want it. That's my view, others may not share it.

Also if you have no clarity in the questions, if you are asking about things that don't connect up really with the bigger picture, then Yi might address the bigger picture anyway, because that is what counts. Taking a wild guess I hypothesise these answers concern your relationship and that surely concerns where you live ? An example. Supposing someone has injured their foot. They don't know when or if it will recover fully but they ask Yi about 2 jobs that both require much walking.

It might go like this.

A. What about job X
Yi. Your foot ?
A. What about job Y
Yi. Your foot ?


Then A says 'why doesn't it answer me about the jobs !?'. Why ? Because whatever you think it is it's got a wider view than A and 'knows' neither job is likely before the foot has recovered....

I'm wondering if something similar is happening here.

I have to think about 2.1>24 primarily like you, Trojina, suggested. But again I asked for oracle's clarification, but got confused even more. I understand that it is up to me to see what frost will turn onto ice in the future, but again... I asked the oracle for clarification, and it feels like she is leaving me stranded.

What do you think, Trojina?

No she isn't leaving you stranded. What if it were like the foot example above ? It might be like

V. What if I move to A
Aunt Yi. So you are staying with him ?
V What if I move to B ?
Yi. You really think it's feasible to stay with him ?



If that whole issue with him is already settled pay no heed to that particular example...I'm just saying Yi might be addressing something bigger that underlies all the various choices you have.

Maybe it isn't. I don 't know.


Ah, I knew I wasn't imagining things...only last week a thread on your marriage situation http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?20571-overwhelmed-by-31-1-3-4-6-gt-42

Now given that that is still very much an issue doesn't this totally impact on where you live ? I haven't read that whole thread but I think the marriage may be what you need to think about before where you live.


You have asked so many question son whether to stay with him and I don't think you are any clearer now, at least you weren't on April 23rd. There is a situation you need to make a decision on, Yi can't do it for you. I know some already gave their views on that situation to the effect you need to get out of it.

Now...if I look at all your threads about the marriage, and there are many..( I think you asked so often you went past the point of them making sense) then I look at this one. I'm thinking all these answers are about your marriage since your marriage, whether you live with him or not will surely impact on where you live. You don't even know whether to stay with him so how can you be thinking of where you both can live ? You get my drift ?

These answers are telling you to go your own way IMO and the 34.3 that you keep trying to go ahead regardless ?
 

Trojina

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....and here's another recent thread http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?20505-Please-help-me-with-17-1-4-gt-8


this is your issue....not where you will both move together. You don't trust him, you don't trust him at all. There are many more threads about how you don't trust him since he cheated and how you fight.

Now, in the light of this, do you really think Yi is letting you down OR do you think she is drawing your attention back to the most important factor here ? She's not daft, you can't just change the subject and think she doesn't know the rest of the whole story of your life. If you were talking to your aunt she'd say the same thing as Yi no doubt.


Vikk. where shall we both live

Aunt. but V are you staying with the guy, you don't seem happy ?

Vikk. never mind that I'm asking you another question, answer me !

Aunt. But if you ain't going to stay with him V you won't be moving together surely ?

Vikk. Nevermind that. Just answer my question !


That's how your conversation with Yi is looking to me.
 

long yi

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When you click faster than you think, you have many hexagrams to generate the answers. This is never the way to consult the oracle.

Hexagram 2 has 6 yin lines. You change line 1 to get hexagram 24.
Then you change line 1 & 2 of hexagram 24 to get hexagram 7.

Do you really know what this means?
You lean back (hexagram 2), then your problem returns (hexagram 24).
You must do something about it (line 1/2 of 24 is the inner house).
Hexagram 7 teaches using experience and get ready to solve the problem.

27.1.3 to 52 means the outcome is a result of your own decision. 52 means nothing moves because you never put together a plan to do anything about it. 52 is a six strike hexagram. There is a tendency to blame each other.

If one applies the trigram analysis and six line analysis, there are >5 cases to analyze to produce a global picture in detail. Three hexagram translates into 3 tarot card presentation on the top of the analysis. No one will bother to give you analysis of the possible outcome. :)

I never charges for analysis of reading. If an Iching master charges USD$50 to analyze each hexagram, you will end up with a bill of $150, giving you back the answer that you already know.
 

Liselle

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Ahh, Trojina, see, this is where you have a bigger perspective. I hadn't read or participated in Vikk's other threads (and still haven't, since I'm trying to get out of the house this morning - maybe later), and knew nothing about her marriage dilemma. Good point! And the little dialogues are really helpful! :D

Just a couple things, though:

(1) I can see how you might get "go your own way" out of these readings (the hexagram 24s? I'm remembering the example you gave about the horrible job you were once in, and kept getting hexagram 24 lines, I think?) So maybe Yi is reminding Vikk in these readings to leave her husband? If that's what the other readings, specifically about her marriage, seemed to say - if that was the consensus - if that's what Vikk thinks is right---?

Having said that, I don't see anything in these readings that sounds like allusions to a marriage, though.

(2) These readings also don't seem to be saying there's any urgency here, as there might be if Vikk is now faced with not one, but TWO big life decisions - her marriage, plus where to live.

Maybe Yi is saying to drag out the apartment decision ("use a net" etc.) UNTIL Vikk decides about her marriage? Maybe Yi is suggesting a way to tease those things apart a little bit, so Vikk isn't overwhelmed by two huge, intertwined messes at once?

NOT sure, though...
 

Trojina

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Ahh, Trojina, see, this is where you have a bigger perspective. I hadn't read or participated in Vikk's other threads (and still haven't, since I'm trying to get out of the house this morning - maybe later), and knew nothing about her marriage dilemma. Good point! And the little dialogues are really helpful! :D

I've noticed Vikks posts often. I tend to glance back at previous threads at times because I figure if I'm going to take the time to answer I may as well get the whole picture. So many questions about the viability of the marriage, even last week, then a question about where to move with her husband ? Hmmm remaining with husband (or not) is surely inextricably linked with where to live.



(1) I can see how you might get "go your own way" out of these readings (the hexagram 24s? I'm remembering the example you gave about the horrible job you were once in, and kept getting hexagram 24 lines, I think?) So maybe Yi is reminding Vikk in these readings to leave her husband? If that's what the other readings, specifically about her marriage, seemed to say - if that was the consensus - if that's what Vikk thinks is right---?


Consensus ? God forbid anyone should go by consensus re I Ching readings :eek:. Yes, to be honest I think it's reminding her of those issues. She asked so many questions on the marriage I think it came to the point where they lost meaning. I didn't keep up anyway. I thought, as I said in CC there's a time to stop asking and consult one's own feelings. She doesn't trust him. Whether that means leaving I don't know. We do have an inner sense of knowing, what feels right. We don't need to hold a fire close and ask Yi 'is that burning me'.

Having said that, I don't see anything in these readings that sounds like allusions to a marriage, though.

As anyone can get any answer about marriage, ranging from 1 -64 then how would one define an answer alluding to marriage ? It is not as if all marriage answers come up as 31 or 53....marriage is a metaphor in Yi mostly while being literal at times. 24 is generally return to self. Besides how can where you live not be bound up with staying married or not /

These readings also don't seem to be saying there's any urgency here, as there might be if Vikk is now faced with not one, but TWO big life decisions - her marriage, plus where to live.

Doesn't seem huge urgency no. People can after all go on living in unhappy marriages for years in places they don't like for years. We can all go on living without perfection, we call it 'life'.

Maybe Yi is saying to drag out the apartment decision ("use a net" etc.) UNTIL Vikk decides about her marriage? Maybe Yi is suggesting a way to tease those things apart a little bit, so Vikk isn't overwhelmed by two huge, intertwined messes at once?

NOT sure, though..


Nor am I sure. Maybe. Given all the previous threads where Vikk agonises over whether to go on with the marriage or not my overall feeling is 'not' but I'm not sure. No one could be sure on such a matter but her. I think she will find certainty about the decision (re her marriage) within herself rather than through more questions to Yi posted on an IC forum. I say this given the amount of threads on it already...at least it seems there's been many threads on it.

Oh and if she cannot decide, there may be no urgency, but that doesn't make the problem go away as I think these casts show. Sometimes a person isn't able to leave, whilst knowing they need to. I have the feeling Vikk does not connect with these answers not because Yi isn't talking to her but because she has a huge hidden topic up her sleeve that affects her choice. She thinks she is keeping that topic out of the question...but Yi, with a wider vantage point, returns to it.

My own personal reaction to the readings.. I feel it more than know it, is that Yi is not addressing the question she actually put. She knows this too so her intuition is on form here which is good. But looking from another angle someone might perceive Yi is answering the questions put, and they may be right....but I can't see or feel that it is.


BTW the sense that the marriage is struggling is not so much from her previous actual casts, which I can't remember, but the amount of times she consulted about it. When someone has to ask so often about a relationship it generally does not bode well for that relationship. There is something the person cannot come to terms with. For Vikk it seems to be a trust issue as far as I recall
 
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Liselle

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As anyone can get any answer about marriage, ranging from 1 -64 then how would one define an answer alluding to marriage ? It is not as if all marriage answers come up as 31 or 53....marriage is a metaphor in Yi mostly while being literal at times.

Yes...also a good point...stupid remark; I know better :eek:.

Yes, these two issues are clearly bound up with each other.

Marriage problems and moving problems do seem like perfectly reasonable things to ask the I Ching about, but as you said, Trojina, when it gets to the point where someone is asking over and over and still has no clarity about it--- Vikk, I wonder if it might help if you went back to your prior readings, and the prior threads here, and spent more time with them, 'treading on the frost' so to speak? Maybe read a number of translations and commentaries, as well as people's comments here, to see different angles? I have found personally that can help. Either something will come to me after it has percolated a bit in my mind, or something a particular author says about a line will seem to fit, where maybe other commentaries haven't.

From just the readings here on this thread, it does seem like it would be okay to take some time with all this, and not feel too pressured about it. Try not to feel frantic and overwhelmed - I think that might be one thing Yi is telling you.

Edited - maybe that's what the 24.1.2 reading is telling you. Someone here said that 24 can be advice to hit the reset button - maybe Yi is saying to do that - return to your previous readings, reset, start fresh with them. 24.1 also says you're not far off, and 24.2 says relax about it - it's quite comforting, actually, even though the situation is not comfortable at all. Hexagram 7 as the relating hexagram in that one - maybe you're treating this like a war or a military campaign, and you don't have to?
 
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What do you think it is saying?

Hi Vikk

My impression is that your husband may have the right idea. There's two months before you must move on or renew your agreement by lease or by month-to-month agreement. Much can occur in that time, so 2.1 may reflect a premature winter. Remember that the lines are attached to the hexagram, which is all too often forgotten in an interpretation. 2 means to be led, to be open, not to lead by your determination into a cold winter. It doesn't sound as though you're enthused about the alternative so I see no reason to rush into winter, but rather to return to your own self and place, for now. Friends, or new opportunities come and go. Avoid desperation, as from personal experience, it's never a good motivator to move.

When you follow up with 'what if you wait until end of summer,' you again receive this idea of desperation and use of force to make something happen, and the comment that a junzi does not work through forcing things, along with 54, which says to me, this mental place is not you, but is your sense of desperation and panic (return to you).

Your third question is another probing 'what if' type question. It speaks of focusing on your nourishment and the nourishment of others, and says that's you're letting go of an important element which guides your fate: the magic turtle. Line 3 shows you turning away from this nourishment source (24 and 'the Way'), and says to be still and calm, not to freak out (52), stay in the moment.

You again ask the Yi what "it" would do, and it repeats: return to the Way. "Return always calls for a decision and is an act of self-mastery." It then gives you 7, an image of strength, leadership, patience and readiness.

I'm seeing all your answers as saying the same fundamental thing. You can ask several more times but for now, remain calm and open. There is no need for despair, you have the month-to-month option to fall back on. Keep your eyes and ears open. Look to where you would like to go, not where you would like to escape from. Remember, that turtle only needs air to breathe to be nourished, the rest will be there when its needed. Have faith and stay open to possibilities.
 

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