Relatonship question, 21 to 50

[Aluhut]

Hi.

Some important background. Some time ago I've met a woman and we began a very casual relatonship, a little more than FWB. Due to various complications we could only met once a month or so. Despite that the relatonship progressed very fast, and after our last meeting I was sure she had strong feelings for me and ready for something more serious. As for me - I already was half way to falling in love. And then she sent me a message saying we need a break. I respected that, and some time passed and finally we agreed to meet again. However, I also received some mixed signals which might be really bad or really good.

I asked the question "What is the relationship between me and her ?" I got 21.1.2.3 to 50, I hope i got the notation right. It was 21 with changing lines 1, 2 and 3. My own interpetation (hopelessly optimistic) - she has commitment issues, and seems she is torn between her feelings for me and fear of commitment. I'm ready to give her as much space and freedom as she wants, but I don't know how to tell her that.

Upd. Sorry was confused and mixed 49 and 50. Now it is correct.

 

[Aluhut]

Any reply please ?

 

[Liselle]

Yes, you have the notation exactly right.

Not terribly sure what to say about the reading...you asked for a description, and Yi says Biting Through the Vessel...

It's tempting to see 50 as the relationship, or maybe what a relationship can ideally be, a container for two people, a safe space. 21 is perhaps the two of you trying to get to grips with that. You've put the ingredients in, now they're cooking, what will it become?

The first two lines are pretty contradictory. I wonder if they describe what's happened so far? There were long stretches where things were held back, you couldn't see each other (21.1), alternating with more 21.2 sort of times when the relationship progressed quite fast.

Then 21.3 might be more the present moment. It sort of sounds like what you say, trying to decide whether this is fit "food" to continue with or not, maybe the mixed signals you mentioned. Maybe also a natural reaction to a relationship that hasn't actually spent much time in a vessel.

That's an interesting comparison, actually. 21 and 50 are both ways of processing food, but they're very different. 50 is probably a nice slow simmer, and 21...I don't know...more like a microwave? Or tossing a steak on a hot fire where the outside gets seared but the inside isn't cooked very well? (If this sounds flippant I absolutely don't mean it to be, I'm just trying to think about the images pretty literally.)

The omen says "small shame," which is more promising than "pitfall," certainly. And "no mistake" - maybe not a mistake to make sure things spend some good quality time cooking, rather than being more or less fast food.

Again not trying to be insulting, if it sounds that way. I do think people can tell important things about each other quickly. But, I mean, an important meal (or relationship commitment) probably deserves preparation in a grand vessel. 50's vessel isn't an ordinary pot, it's an enduring work of art and skilled craftsmanship.

Don't know if that helps. Keep giving it time, I suppose.

 

[Aluhut]

Thank you! A lot of what you are saying resonates with my thoughts. There is a lot of untapped potential, which will require a lot of effort from both of us to make it happen. And the food analogy isn't that inappropriate

I guess what I really want to know is how she feels about me, or even more accurate - is she willing to try and make it work, or will she run away ? What would be good question to ask in this case ?

 

[Liselle]

I wonder if 21.3 answers that already? It could be she's cautiously examining things, trying to decide if it's a good idea or not to keep on with it.

Questions asking for a prediction of what someone else will do are often not very helpful, especially if she hasn't made up her mind yet.

I suppose you could ask "What's the potential?" or, probably better, "How should I be with this now (or how to be with her now - what should you do, in other words) or "What does she (or what does the relationship) need from me now?" or something like that. Something that's more like advice for you, especially since we often get to "What should I do?" anyway, eventually, after asking other kinds of questions.

The question you asked is a perfectly good one, though, asking Yi for a description. It's just different from advice or guidance.

 

[Aluhut]

Ok, I've asked "What does she needs from me now" and got the answer that I cannot interpret taking into account situation and the question. 25.1 to 12. Whatever happens is not my fault ? Doesn't make any sense.

 

[rosada]

25.1>12.
Disentangled - Disconnected.
She needs to feel autonomous and without obligation. Like she really does need to take a break.
I see this as saying that you ought not assume you have any special relationship here regardless of your past experiences together. Perhaps you can roll things back to that place (no more “benefits “) and see if you can start fresh.

 

[Aluhut]

Thank you. The irony here is that in her last message she made it very clear that she wants to strictly limit this to "benefits". I know this sounds like a cliche male fantasy - a woman that only wants sex without obligations and makes no attempts to change that, but this is the reality in this case. To make this even more ironic, I never was interested in this kind of relationship, even when I was very young.

 

[Aluhut]

We've met again, and it was the most confusing date ever. On one hand, she made a serious effort to show that she cares about me as a person and remembers things that are important to me. On other hand, she very clearly and unambiguously emphasized a certain line that she will not cross.

I've asked a quesiton "Do I still have a chance with her ?" Not the best question, I know, but I was so distracted that couldn't come up with anything else. The answer I got was the most confusing so far in this story. 43.1.2.3 -> 8 I cannot even begin to comprehend it's meaning given the question asked.

 

[Aluhut]

I don't want to be annoying, but I would really appreciate some thoughts on the above.

 

[rosada]

Study 43.1.2.3 - 8. to and see if you recognize a parallel to your circumstance.

Meanwhile, I still think 25.1 - 12 is saying you need to step back from the benefits program, even though it is she who would like to have such a relationship. Interesting isn’t it how the stock response from men is that getting sex without commitment is a good thing but now that you share your experience here we are reminded that all men do not necessarily feel this way. Indeed, both men and women fundamentally know that sex has the potential for much more than just physical comfort, but to forgo the physical pleasure until the spiritual connection has been assured is a challenged few have mastered.
Usually it is the woman who insists sex be delayed until there is a spiritual connection, but this is a cultural thing. Even though it is unusual for the man to refuse to have sex without commitment, I think 25.1 - 12 saying you should disengage here if that’s all she’s offering. Refuse to have sex! Works every time!

 

[Aluhut]

Thank you. Depends on what exactly you define as "spiritual", but in my opinion it's already there. We have a lot in common, while being different enough to make our conversations interesting. She is very open about herself and her life, and trust me enough to share her fears and vulnerabilities.

On a most recent date she did something that is as close to "You are important to me and I care" as you can get without saying this out loud. She shocked me in a positive way, this is something I would never have expected given her previous behavior. At this point I'm sure (well, as much as a man can be sure about what women thinks) that she has quite strong feelings for me.

However, she has very serious commitment issues and she explained this very clearly. It's not about trust, she trusts me a lot, especially for this stage of relationship. It's more about fear of changes and her definition of "freedom". She thinks that any kind of relationship will take away this freedom.

This situation is inherently unsustainable in the long run, she will have to make a choice sooner or later. I've tried to hint to her that I'm not a threat to her freedom, but I'm not sure she understood that. And I cannot tell her that straightforward without "laying all the cards on a table", and this will likely put so much pressure on her that she will run away again.

The advice on withholding sex would work in any other case, but not in this one. Sorry, I cannot explain why. What I really need is the way to show her that our relationship and her freedom are not mutually exclusive. Yes, it is quite ironic that stereotypical gender patterns are reversed here

 

[rosada]

Well I’m not advocating anything. I’m just looking at this reading as a puzzle and saying how I think 25.1 - 12 could relate to your question, and I think, as you will see below, that 25.1 -12 is saying she needs you to completely abandon the idea of this relationship being something other than what she has told you she wants it to be.

What does she need from me now?
25.1 Innocent behavior brings good fortune. - Wilhelm
So I think here the I Ching is saying she really needs to feel that the connection between you is innocent and free of entanglements.

This means however that in order for it to be so innocent you must fall back to where YOU are being innocent. That is take things back to the point before you had any hidden agenda. Because you are not a playboy so to be true to yourself you can’t pretend casual sex is acceptable. Thus you are advised to…

12.” Fall back upon your inner worth in order to escape the difficulties.” (In other words, remember you’re worth more than just being a FWB and you wont have these issues about feeling a sexual relationship should be more because it will no longer be a sexual relationship.
“He does not allow himself to be honored with revenue.” (You’re not giving your heart and soul for free sex.)

…
Anyway, this may not be the right interpretation, or maybe it was only appropriate for that day that you asked the question and things have moved on now. As I said, I just am writing out what I see these hexagrams as meaning.

It might be interesting to ask, “What do I need from her?”

43.1.2.3 - 8 Seems to say talking these things over could lead to a Breakthrough and then you will see for yourself what the chances for Union are.

 

[Aluhut]

"What do I need from her" isn't that revealing - I'm really good at introspection and being brutally honest about my real motivation. But I asked that anyway, to see if maybe I'm missing something

53.2 -> 57

Can't get more clear than that. I literally wrote this few days ago in my diary "I want to be a part of her life and her to be part of mine." And I knew from the beginning it's not going to be easy or fast. And another layer is that she can help me with my personal growth and transformation. She is the catalyst and more.

43.1.2.3 - 8 Seems to say talking these things over could lead to a Breakthrough and then you will see for yourself what the chances for Union are.

This was my conviction ever since she told me about her commitment issues. However, I'm afraid of doing this at the wrong moment. What do you think about asking "What would be approriate time to openly talk to her" ?

 

[rosada]

I expect someone somewhere has assigned specific times to the various hexagrams but unless you know that method I think you’d have a hard time deciphering what time the various lines are referring to. But sure, go ahead and ask. I have said before that I’ve never had my I Ching burst into flames because of some inappropriate question. The worst thing that could happen is that you wouldn’t be able to make sense of the answer.

 

[Aluhut]

It's not about timing, it's about understanding when the moment is right, so I asked "How I can understand when it's appropriate moment to talk to her ?" Got 3.5->24

I'm probably stretching the meaning, but seems this means "be slow, but steady, she will let you know by returning to how it was ". I.e. return to how it was before she decided to pull back.

 

[Trojina]

25.1 is free and untangled therefore you have to consider she does not need anything from you right now perhaps.

 

[rosada]

I see 3.5 as describing a situation where there needs to be lots of small steps, lots of back and forth and adjusting and re-calibrating and a warning not to go too far out on a limb without getting feedback Don’t press for too much at a time. So as a response to your question,”How can I understand when it’s appropriate moment to talk to her?” I think you are being advised not to expect some perfect block of time to open up. Rather you probably should say small things (“Good to see you!”) and notice what her response is (“Nice to see you too!”) and then gauge where you should then go from there.

 

[Aluhut]

Ok, I'm back with more mixed signals and ambigious readings She wants to meet me again, great. But only in January, making this another 2 month break - no so great. But she will be coming to my city (she lives on other end of the country). She is here from time to time for business, and I asked her several times to meet me if she is here - she never did so far. Overall this looks like as both breakthrough and pushback.

I've asked a lot of questions this time, because I have no idea how to respond.

What will happen if I talk to her right now about our situation ?

13.6->49

Should I push for a meeting in December as I previously planned ?

14.2.5->13

What will happen if we meet in January as she wants ?

44.1.5->14

Overall it seems more of the same - "yes, but..." and being cautious and taking slow steps.

 

[Aluhut]

All right, some more coherent thoughts. First of all, disregard the question about pushing for December, it is irrelevant.

13.6->49

After reading some more, I think this means it is either bad idea, or at best will only delay the desired outcome.

44.1.5->14

This is one is very interesting. I'm not sure if "held by metal choke" of the first line refers to me, her or the situation as a whole. Could be all at once, to be honest - there is enough obstacles everywhere. Line 5 is very promising of course. Caring/protection wording very accuratley describes the nature of our relationship and what she is looking for, but afraid to become dependant on that.

Any comments or idea would be appreciated

 

[Aluhut]

We had another date. To be honest, the above reading about what will happen on that date (44.1.5->14) is so ambigious that it's not a problem to find an interpretation that matches the actual events. 44 is quite an infamous hexagram, with interpretations varying from auspicious to disasterous. However, no idea about what "Great Possesion" the relating hexagram 14 talks about.

She was very different this time. I guess the best way to describe is that she stopped putting on her best "first date mask". Still the same amazing woman, but no longer controlling herself all the time and only showing what she wants to show. Much more natural and way more relaxed. Even if this a side effect from a lot of partying for New Year's Eve, it was still good to see her like that. It was more like a date of two people that know each other for a long time and truly accept each other. Despite that, she still wants to keep the existing "boundaries" that she defined.

So I asked the question "What does she feels about our relationship now" and received

58.2.6->25

58 is "Joy, Communication" 'Communicating joy, creating success. Harvest in constancy.' Pretty clear, however I'm not sure how big the connection with romantic relationship here ? Seems more spiritual in nature. Maybe she starts to see a platonic friend in me rather than romantic partner ?

58.2 is "Sincere and confident communication, good fortune. Regrets vanish." Our communications are definetley more open and confident now, however we still avoiding discussuing our feelings. Perhaps this means she is ready for that discussion now ?

58.6 is "'Opening/communication that pulls." This one is a warning about being pulled by "seductive joyness". This seems like an obvious reference to sex between us, or hopefully to sex without commiment.

Relating Hexagram is 25, "Disentangled" again. That doesn't seems so good, and sort of contradicts the main hexagram. Why she is back to free from commitment if everything goes well ?

To summarise - if not for 25 as relating I would be pretty happy with the answer that says we are progressing nicely, but 25 really confuses me here.

 

[rosada]

Think of hexagram 25 as defining a rebirth, a return to a state of childlike innocence and no one is obligated or entangled by any of the previous experiences, a fresh start.

 

[Aluhut]

Thank you! That is very promising in several different ways. I don't think this yet a breakthrough I am hoping for, but it seems that we moving in that direction. It might as well be that she saw that I like her for who she is as a real person, and not just "ideal image" she tried to project previously.

One other thing. Her birthday is coming up soon, and it will be an important round number, symbolic change of phase in life. Do you think 25 also could be related to this ?

P.S. When researching, I found many (too many tbh) threads where querent asks a questions, gets some valuable insights and than never updates how the situation developed/resolved. Not my style, rest assured I will report on outcome, whatever it might be.

 

[Aluhut]

I've been researching line 5 of Hexagram 3 and found a very interesting source

LiSe YiJing

www.yijing.nl

ZHEN, determination or divination, is oracle-consulting, but also receiving an answer. And most important: to follow the advice of the gods.

That gives a whole new depth of meaning to "big constancy" as relying too much on various ways of divination. Has this point of view been discussed previously here ? I checked the original thread on hex 3 from 2006, and didn't found anything like that.

 

[Aluhut]

I'm quite humbled that Hilary mentioned my thread in her January update We are in the process of agreeing the next date, most likely early March. Will be back in two months!

 

[Aluhut]

It's been a while. We had another date yesterday. I'm still processing the events and emotions, since there are always so many of them in the relatively short time we have together. Here is one important thought I want to share right now.

Since January I scaled way back on "abusing" the Oracle, especially for "mind-reading" questions, and focused on understanding answers I already have. One new question I asked was "What will happen when we meet in March ?" Answer 18uc. "Work on what has been spoiled" or "Remedying". Some selected quotes from Huang about that gua.

Remedying is the inverse of the preceding gua, Following. According to the ancient sages’ experience, one following others amiably may tend to go along with evil streams and become degenerate. In that case, one should turn over a new leaf and make a fresh start

Mountain over Wind presents a picture that the yin gua is willing to follow, but the yang gua is standing still. Thus the yin gua cannot move forward. Moreover, the yielding lines of both gua are lying under solid lines, symbolizing yin elements restrained by yang elements and unable to do anything, just like the abandoned, unused containers where worms develop. This situation needs a remedy.

If Gu is “decay,” “poison,” “destruction,” or “corruption,” how can the gua deserve the most auspicious labels of prosperity and smoothness, and be favorable to cross great rivers? Confucius’s Commentary on the Decision says, “The world will be regulated in good order. It is favorable to cross great rivers. It is time to go forward and do something. . . . It indicates a new beginning follows every ending. This is the course of Heaven.”

In context of our relationship this could mean two things - some mistakes I've made on a previous date, and her childhood trauma due to bad parenting and everything that follows from that. As it often happens, reality is more complex than one single interpretation. It was a mix of both - I took care of apologising and fixing my mistakes, and she talked about her parents and childhood. Oh, and how much she talked. Despite saying she doesn't want serious connection or commitment she does everything to make our connection deeper and stronger. She went as far as saying "It feels like we know each other for a very long time"

It's not (yet) a turning point that I'm hoping for, but definitely a big step forward. It's probably the most significant development ever since she asked for a pause. I also asked "What is the most important thing I need to know about our recent date ?" Answer -32uc, "Long Lasting". Traditionally symbolises a union of old married couple

 

[foxx777]

It's been a while. We had another date yesterday. I'm still processing the events and emotions, since there are always so many of them in the relatively short time we have together. Here is one important thought I want to share right now.

Since January I scaled way back on "abusing" the Oracle, especially for "mind-reading" questions, and focused on understanding answers I already have. One new question I asked was "What will happen when we meet in March ?" Answer 18uc. "Work on what has been spoiled" or "Remedying". Some selected quotes from Huang about that gua.



In context of our relationship this could mean two things - some mistakes I've made on a previous date, and her childhood trauma due to bad parenting and everything that follows from that. As it often happens, reality is more complex than one single interpretation. It was a mix of both - I took care of apologising and fixing my mistakes, and she talked about her parents and childhood. Oh, and how much she talked. Despite saying she doesn't want serious connection or commitment she does everything to make our connection deeper and stronger. She went as far as saying "It feels like we know each other for a very long time"

It's not (yet) a turning point that I'm hoping for, but definitely a big step forward. It's probably the most significant development ever since she asked for a pause. I also asked "What is the most important thing I need to know about our recent date ?" Answer -32uc, "Long Lasting". Traditionally symbolises a union of old married couple

I would take the 32 uc as very significant, and very hope-inspiring and positive in general. Just watch for the ups and downs; let things continue to progress in small steps, which are more enduring than big leaps, usually.

 

[Aluhut]

After more time and looking inwards a coherent picture started to form in my head. It's very hard to explain in words, but it integrates both "good" and "bad" readings into a big picture. What's most important is that I now know what to do next.

I also come up with a really good question (I hope) to verify that. "What is the biggest illusion I have about relationship with her ?"

7.4.5->47

'The Army, constancy.
Mature people, good fortune.
Not a mistake.'

Line 4
'The army's resting place on the left,
Not a mistake.'

Line 5

'The fields have game
Fruitful to speak of capturing:
No mistake.
Elder son leads the army,
Younger son carts corpses:
Constancy, pitfall.'

Unfortunatley, the meaning completley escapes me. I've consulted WikiWing, Huang and Karcher and all sources generally agree that 7 is about collective effort, leadership/followers and similar situations. How this applies to our situation I don't really understand. Sure, I've talked with couple of very close friends about her, but no one is directly invovled. So yeah, would be very interesting to hear if I maybe missing something.

 

[rosada]

Worries may be at rest for the moment (7.4) but the battle of the sexes will be starting up again (7.5)

 

[Aluhut]

This is not going to be easy, but I made a promise, and I keep my promises.

Few weeks after last date I've wrote to her suggesting a day for a next date. She sent very dry message saying that she decided not to see again, because over last two dates she again feels like previously. I've waited couple of days and sent her my heartfelt letter. Saying that I accept her as she is, and never had a slightest idea to threaten her freedom. And offered to find something that will work for both of us.

Instead of reply she blocked me. Not even "I like you but not like this". Some minor details that first seemed strange tells me that she made that decision literally the next day, so everything was predetermined when I've received 32uc. It doesn't make any sense.

I know you've been telling me it will end like that. But there were a lot of other readings, very auspicious. In my mind I painted a picture that she will pull back again and this will be the turning point for something bigger and better. Well, one part I got right.

I don't have any regrets, even what little we had was amazing. The hardest part is the same as before - not knowing "why". No, "she just not that into you" could never explain all the amazing parts, the things she did to show that she really cares about me. In conclusion I humbly ask to refrain from "I told you so" comments.