Sexual relationship hexagram 37

[Daeluin]

I'll let a woman explain this one.

Actually, this isn't exactly uncharted territory....
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/2viufs

reddit woman never had an orgasm - Google Search

 

[Trojina]

I know there are people who haven't had orgasms or perhaps experience more diffuse pleasure it was more a reply to Mary's statement of the high percentage of married women near her with no orgasms

Many married women around me haven't experienced the orgasm a single time in their lives.

....the idea that Mary had all these married women around her who have never had an orgasm. It leaves me puzzled both at the condition of these women who surround Mary and also puzzled as to the point she is making/supporting?

 

[Daeluin]

..it was more the idea that Mary had all these married women around her who have never had an orgasm.

Maybe this post helps?

As for the point, IMO it seems to clearly relate to committed relationships leading to sex being considered a chore and obligation for their husbands rather than something that is a positive and creative/liberating/etc experience.

 

[Trojina]

The post you linked to was a different thread, I don't see the connection

As for the point, IMO it seems to clearly relate to committed relationships leading to sex being considered a chore and obligation for their husbands rather than something that is a positive and creative/liberating/etc experience.

But that's so generalised (and antiquated, sounds very 1950s) it doesn't really mean anything or rather as we cannot get data on how an entire population of married people/people in long term relationships enjoy sex or don't enjoy it no conclusions can be drawn from saying married women Mary knows don't have orgasms.

I'd say people in long term relationships and marriages sometime have a really good sex life, sometimes don't and most commonly it will go off the boil somewhat, naturally, after 10 years or so but not always. Also it's a mistake to think the husband always wants sex and to the wife it's a chore, it happens the other way around too.

I interrupted anyway as you and Mary were chatting so I'll leave you to it

 

[Daeluin]

I'd certainly like to think that if my own friends express to me displeasure in their sexual lives, thinking it a chore and bother if not worse, because they don't know any different, that I would not think this current issue for them an antiquated idea. If it is an issue for them then it is alive and relevant now.

If this issue seems to persist among many of my friends in committed relationships, to the point where it seems to hardly be a unique phenomena, then perhaps it can be linked to patterns of beliefs within the overall area as a whole. If such a pattern is seen, then such a conclusion may be drawn, can it not?

Given the nature of my own experience of sexuality, I would very much feel for my friends for not knowing that sexuality can be something much more than a chore. I would dread such a relationship of my own and would likely feel trapped within it, knowing what I do. Seeing this as a problem not limited to my friends, but found everywhere around me would very much put me on guard against being in committed relationships in this place where I live.

But of course, that's just me speaking from my own perspective, and the conclusions I have drawn myself, from what Mary has shared. I do not wish to put words of my own onto Mary's voice, just sharing what from my perspective seems somewhat clear and reasonable.

 

[Trojina]

thinking it a chore and bother if not worse, because they don't know any different, that I would not think this current issue for them an antiquated idea.

You misunderstood me....somehow. I meant 'antiquated' in the sense that that attitude 'lie back and think of England' (what they'd say in the UK), the idea that sex was for the pleasure of the man and a woman's duty, she must 'lie back' and endure is very much a pre 1950s kind of attitude. I just don't think it is prevalent in the same way today at least in the western world. In the same way back then people stayed in unhappy marriages far more than they do now.

 

[Daeluin]

OK, sure, but it is definitely still a thing. I don't know what country Mary is from, maybe you do. But even in the United States (where I live), it is still quite the phenomena. Especially among people from conservative / religious families, it is common to marry young and expected for the woman to do what the man says. On the outside, within society, things may seem normal, but at home the wife cooks and cleans while the man does whatever. (I have a friend who's partner is like this, and it is quite the issue for her. Their sex life is also unsatisfying.)

If the relationship is bound by the contract and expectations of society, as is still common all across the world, then the flames of passion may not have ever been a thing, or may not have lasted long at all, leaving the relationship unlikely to be satisfying sexually. If the woman has never experienced something else, then she may put up with the man's desires but it may be somewhat dissatisfying to them both, leading to affairs and divorces.

But depending on the religion in a country and how much divorces are a taboo, that may not be an option, and it may be preferential because of this to avoid marriage all together for those who see what is happening.

 

[marybluesky]

@Daeluin , I agree the hook-up culture with its materialistic view on people is flawed.

As for the women who surround me, they are family members of older generation (50-60 year old). The point is, this has been the condition of women in a society with high marriage rate and no hook-up culture. My point is, if the casual sex is flawed, so is marriage and commitment. Notice that after the latter started to vanish, the second came. That's the reality of world. I don't know where did the notion of transcendent, overly pleasant, sustainable sex that leads to personal, spiritual development come. That's not what I see in real life. Take a look at the posts on this forum.

@Trojina, in a society where the masturbation and any sexual provocation out of marriage is considered sin, it's not weird to see people not having explored their sexuality. Not all countries have been pioneer in sexual revolution, although the world is changing in a rapid pace.

There is no sophisticated gadgets shop where I live, but more importantly, the sexual pleasure is still regarded as a man thing by many people (despite the changes). Once I was hanging out with a group in a car and there was this guy who couldn't accept women can have arousal, not until they have been "with a man for a long time enough to be sure that he will be a good provider and start a family with them". Me and the other girl said we are absolutely able to experience arousal by seeing a sexy male, and he insisted that no, you can't!!!! After a while, he left the car angrily

Masturbation & self-giving sexual pleasure aside, I was talking about the sexual part of committed relationships, when the mutual act should be pleasant. I guess you have already read the statistics about orgasm in men & women. Just to mention, there's a considerable gap, the straight females experience orgasm the least, many women never or hardly ever orgasm, and the subjects of studies often live in developed countries. Figure out the situation in the less developed ones.

 

[Daeluin]

My point is, if the casual sex is flawed, so is marriage and commitment. Notice that after the latter started to vanish, the second came. That's the reality of world. I don't know where did the notion of transcendent, overly pleasant, sustainable sex that leads to personal, spiritual development come. That's not what I see in real life. Take a look at the posts on this forum.

I agree about the flaws of both. Funny how we oscillate between extremes. As for where the notion of spontaneous natural sexual interactions comes from, it is just from an in between path of those exploring their freedom of choice as they navigate inner growth happen to meet each other and interact. I don't know about sustainable, as paths like this tend not to be pinned down for long, though a relationship may last for a time before conditions change and people are moved on to new lessons. It is after all the over attachment that tends to cause problems in committed relationships. As for spiritual, the path of inner growth is already spiritual, so we tend to meet with those who we can grow from and resonate with.

Such encounters may be less easily put in a box but I would imagine they are still readily found within many types of relating among people who connect out of pure love. Romance isn't necessarily dead, despite how many post regarding their woes. When things are working well what pressing need for questions?

But it would appear that the ways of a people do strongly shape what is possible to find. In the US we have both hookup culture and institutional marriage, so we find all of it, and naturally the in between too. If we did not have both ends, it might be harder to find what is in the middle.

Speaking of what is to be found in the middle, sex is itself an extreme, being one of the most intimate ways we can interact, and how we procreate. Away from this extreme, we may identify that we have both needs for touch and needs for sexuality, and both may be met in ways that can be very gratifying and help us resolve emotional burdens.

I work as a massage therapist at a spa, and am able to help people get their touch needs met. I have a friend who holds cuddle parties where people are able to experience safe non-sexual touch with each other. There are any number of sexual practices, like Kareeza, that explore sexuality without orgasm, and some without penetration. More and more, people are learning to recognize that consenting touch doesn't need to be something that is either off limits all together or only to be found in penetrative, orgasmic sex, and that there are many forms of touch that can be platonic and gratifying outside of sex.

As a licensed massage therapist I only give a massage with professional, nonsexual boundaries, but it is amazing to me how much emotional / sensual relief people experience from my work. Part of my work involves reconnecting the body along meridian pathways, so I massage from the back down the legs, from the legs up into the hips, and the hips are often avoided as taboo. But there is something about this work that reconnects people back to the full awareness of their bodies that even sex might not accomplish. But it is only after a lot of work by licensing bodies that massage is able to become something safe and trusted in my country, as it is not long from something that associated with more illicit sexual work. So we still navigate and educate people around that, and more and more people are now showing up in this middle ground to receive professional but emotionally efficacious work. Oddly enough, finding a resonant massage therapist is not unlike finding a resonant sexual partner. Everyone's touch is a little different, and when people find someone they click with it is a wonderful thing.

So to me there is a lot to be found between the extremes, but it takes a lot of work on the part of society to help get us there, and that work is easily undone by trauma to society like wars, political strife, and so on.

 

[Hartloper]

#37 UC also = managing the body's subtle energy flows. inner temple. meridian energy system.

@Daeluin thanks for sharing all that information. that runs pretty deep. led to a few aha moments for me.

best, j.